Battlemechs That Are Considered "Extinct"

[Dayton3]

Which mech designs that were once in production and general use have disappeared in the BT Universe?

As far as I know the original Mackie is the one mech design that is definitely no longer in use.    I seem to remember that the Shogun is down to only two mechs existing in the galaxy in operational condition and I think the Star League Era Spartan which as down to only about two dozen or so known examples prior to the Jihad and other unpleasantness is also about gone.

[Scotty]

The Shogun has made a resurgence in the Dark Age, thanks to the Sea Foxes producing two new variants as seen in the TRO 3150 NTNU section.  The SHG-3E is noted as being popular with mercenaries, and the Shogun C 2 has Ferro-Lamellor armor.

The Ymir fits the bill nicely.  As far as the MUL is concerned, the Rampage is also largely extinct.

[Sartris]

Thanks to the New Dallas Core, some units formerly extinct now roam the Inner Sphere.  Even the primitive Mackie was hauled out of obscurity to shoot at the robes.


Your best bet is to use the MUL and search units by the faction 'exinct' and a specific availability era. For example, here are the units considered extinct during the Clan Invasion
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=&HasBV=false&MinTons=&MaxTons=&MinBV=&MaxBV=&MinIntro=&MaxIntro=&MinCost=&MaxCost=&HasRole=&HasBFAbility=&MinPV=&MaxPV=&Role=None+Selected&BookAuto=&FactionAuto=&Factions=3&AvailableEras=13

[Alexander Knight]

The Von Rhors is also long-dead, as is the Hector and the Alfar

[Sartris]

did some digging and found a list i had made of extinct chassis as of 3100 or so. It's mostly a collection of Age of War / first generation Clan / Word of Blake / Solaris VII

corrections/addendums appreciated

Alfar
Archangel
Battle Cobra (IS)
Blue Flame
Bombard
Cameroon
Copperhead
Coyotl
Crockett
Deva
Epimetheus
Exterminator
Falcon
Firefly
Fox
Gestalt
Grand Crusader
Grand Crusader II
Grigori
Gurkha
Hector
Initiate
Jackrabbit
Legacy
Liberator
Lightray
Lupus
Matar
Mackie
Malak
Mercury II
Minsk
Nexus
Nexus II
Omega
Onslaught
Paladin
Phoenix Hawk LAM
Porcupine
Preta
Prowler
Raijin
Raijin II
Rampage
Red Shift
Rifleman II
Rifleman III
Rising Star
Ronin
Scorpion LAM
Screamer LAM
Seraph
Shogun
Silver Fox
Sling
Spartan
Spatha (presumed)
Stag / Stag II
Stinger LAM
Storm Giant
Swordsman
Talos
Toyama
Vanquisher
Vision Quest
Volkh
Von Rohrs
Waneta LAM
Wasp LAM
Werewolf
White Flame
Wildfire
Woodsman
Ymir
Yurei LAM


There are also some on life support like the Mercury with a one or two extant variants in use like the Mercury (1) and Thorn (2). Some, as Scotty points out above, do not stay extinct into the mid 32nd century like the Shogun. I assume some additional mostly dead / all dead status-swapping will occur when the most current era is completely added to the MUL

[The_Caveman]

The Lupus, Coyotl, and Woodsman are less "extinct" and more "obsolete". They were consigned to mothballs during the late 30th century. It's not confirmed but seems likely that most of the survivors would have been pulled out during the Wars of Reaving and expended then (and some of the mothballed Lupus were used to build Hellfires). There should still be a few chassis in the hands of dark caste as of 3100, either stolen during the designs' heyday or picked from the battlefield as salvage during/after the WoR. They'd be in about the same condition as most IS 'Mechs in the late 3rd succession war, though, because spare parts are almost nonexistent.

[Sartris]

iirc the MUL's working definition of extinct isn't strictly "none left," but "not present in large enough numbers to make a significant showing in anyone's forces." This accommodates your Wars of Reaving scenario with a few working examples available to be pulled out of mothballs.

[cavingjan]

Extinct = none left

[Deadborder]

Where's the Fox from? MUL has Snow Fox, Arctic Fox, Kit Fox (Uller), Silver Fox and Thunder Fox but no Fox Fox

[Nargrakhan]

Maybe it's too early to declare the WoB exclusive designs as truly extinct, until the final fate of the remaining Hidden Five and Shadow Divisions are revealed?

Those cybernetic robed men could still be hiding under the interstellar bed.  :D

[cavingjan]

Extinct does not mean permanently extinct. We have a lot of designs that go extinct to come back later. See the primitives as examples.

[Nahuris]

Maybe it's too early to declare the WoB exclusive designs as truly extinct, until the final fate of the remaining Hidden Five and Shadow Divisions are revealed?

Those cybernetic robed men could still be hiding under the interstellar bed.  :D

We are....... sleep tight.

Nahuris

[ColBosch]

Extinct = none left

That's a change, then. Our working definition when I was with the MUL team was "Extinct" = "Not enough left to be notable." The Mackie was extinct after the Amaris Civil War, but several were left around; I seem to recall two in the Clan Homeworlds and at least one in the Inner Sphere. The Phoenix Hawk Mk I is extinct, but similarly there is one in a museum. The Gladiator was extinct for centuries, but one was operating during the early days of the Jihad, before it was put back into limited production. The Shogun is effectively extinct during the Jihad, but we know of a bare handful operated by Wolf's Dragoons and Wannamaker's Widowmakers. Hell, the Shadow Hawk LAM - which was one of the very few units in recent history to be given hard (and extremely low) production numbers - might even turn up, given that one chassis disappeared.

There are only two "rarities" the MUL is concerned with. The first is "Unique," and denotes a singular name of a certain unit. The other is "Extinct," as discussed above. Neither means "only one" or "none left," however! While it's true that there is only one 'Mech named Yen-lo-Wang, its configuration could have been duplicated numerous times; indeed, Centurions armed with AC/20s are common enough to be mentioned in TR3025. "Unique" configurations of OmniMechs, like Daishi Widowmaker, can be - and are - used by anyone with the appropriate pods.

Best of all, you can ignore all of the above and do whatever you want in your own games. The MUL - like all of "canon" - is a guideline, not a straightjacket.

[Sartris]

Ah, thanks Bosch. I knew I didn't imagine that

[nckestrel]

There can always be the possibility of an exception or two, in a museum or maybe lost to all until it's found by luck.  The "it's your game" rule comes in to play.  But if you ask somebody for one the response will be laughter, disbelief or concerns about your sanity. 
It's extinct.

Except the Von Rohrs by developer edict :).  It's so extinct you are not allowed to even have a piece of one in your home game or ninjas will be dispatched.

[Suralin]

Except the Von Rohrs by developer edict :).  It's so extinct you are not allowed to even have a piece of one in your home game or ninjas will be dispatched.

I notice you didn't say anything about spiritual successors, tho. :D

[glitterboy2098]

Catalyst would never try to prevent people from using what they like, i suspect the Unique and Extinct classifications are meant more to prevent proliferation of those units in the official materials. so that we don't have offbrand Yen-Lo-Wang's being mass produced around the IS, or the Taurians suddenly having several regiment's worth of Toro's in a late succession war historical..

[ColBosch]

Catalyst would never try to prevent people from using what they like, i suspect the Unique and Extinct classifications are meant more to prevent proliferation of those units in the official materials. so that we don't have offbrand Yen-Lo-Wang's being mass produced around the IS, or the Taurians suddenly having several regiment's worth of Toro's in a late succession war historical..

Developer guidance is part of it, sure (especially when it came to making up stuff like RATs), but a lot of it was just a simple extension of the faction availabilities.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

did some digging and found a list i had made of extinct chassis as of 3100 or so. It's mostly a collection of Age of War / first generation Clan / Word of Blake / Solaris VII

corrections/addendums appreciated

Alfar
Archangel
Battle Cobra (IS)
Blue Flame
Bombard
Cameroon
Copperhead
Coyotl
Crockett
Deva
Epimetheus
Exterminator
Falcon
Firefly
Fox
Gestalt
Grand Crusader
Grand Crusader II
Grigori
Gurkha
Hector
Initiate
Jackrabbit
Legacy
Liberator
Lightray
Lupus
Matar
Mackie
Malak
Mercury II
Minsk
Nexus
Nexus II
Omega
Onslaught
Paladin
Phoenix Hawk LAM
Porcupine
Preta
Prowler
Raijin
Raijin II
Rampage
Red Shift
Rifleman II
Rifleman III
Rising Star
Ronin
Scorpion LAM
Screamer LAM
Seraph
Shogun
Silver Fox
Sling
Spartan
Spatha (presumed)
Stag / Stag II
Stinger LAM
Storm Giant
Talos
Toyama
Vanquisher
Vision Quest
Volkh
Von Rohrs
Waneta LAM
Werewolf
White Flame
Wildfire
Woodsman
Ymir
Yurei LAM


There are also some on life support like the Mercury with a one or two extant variants in use like the Mercury (1) and Thorn (2). Some, as Scotty points out above, do not stay extinct into the mid 32nd century like the Shogun. I assume some additional mostly dead / all dead status-swapping will occur when the most current era is completely added to the MUL

Swordsman?

[Sartris]

Swordsman?

i probably made the list before that volume of primitives was released. added.

[megatrons2nd]

I am fairly certain there are Exterminators out there.  No CLPS/NullSig ones, but I seem to recall them getting an upgrade.  I am likely wrong, just going off of memory, and seeing a new variant somewhere, but can't exactly remember the where or when.

[ColBosch]

I am fairly certain there are Exterminators out there.  No CLPS/NullSig ones, but I seem to recall them getting an upgrade.  I am likely wrong, just going off of memory, and seeing a new variant somewhere, but can't exactly remember the where or when.

A handful - about 25 or so - were made during the Third Succession War, per TR3025R and 3039 (which mentions, but does not actually include, the 'Mech). They were not commercially successful.

[Sartris]

I am fairly certain there are Exterminators out there.  No CLPS/NullSig ones, but I seem to recall them getting an upgrade.  I am likely wrong, just going off of memory, and seeing a new variant somewhere, but can't exactly remember the where or when.

The -5E and -5F were developed in 3060 and 3073, respectively for c3i Level IIs. The -6CS of 3079 had both the CLP shield and null sig. As the majority of WoB and ComStar-produced variants are listed as extinct post-jihad, it's not surprising that these are either. The others apparently were gone by 3200, per the MUL.

[Wrangler]

Things with "limited" numbers in the fluff don't necessary stay rare or uncommon since they don't use that terminology in Battletech as far i can find.  Unique only thing i've seen that makes design stand out as far production vs customization.  MUL very blunt saying what era these designs are lingering around.  Not telling your their gone.

Only extinct designs are the one that don't appear in regular TROs nowadays.  Designs that appeared in say, Era Digest: Golden Century, has Clan design that long since gone.  Clan Wolverine designs from Interstellar Player books.  Primitive Mechs were resurrected designs during the Jihad as RetroTech units.

Many (if not most) of the ye olde TRO:2750 Designs which were suppose to be rare and extinct became regular designs to replace the unseens, example the Exterminator replacing the Wolverine.

I actually like Fan-Made Army Lists, which goes out it's way to state common/uncommon/rare/unique Mechs/vehicles/etc are.

The Combat Manuals seem to have a good listing who "common" units are available for mercenaries, hopefully the newer books will include doing this. It's best we have.

Hopefully something like that can be made on the MUL when time permits.

[cavingjan]

It would be nice but I'm not sure how practical it would be for the size of the MUL. The lists I have seen usually only have a small portions of the units in the MUL. Rarity needs to be tied to the unit, faction, and the era.

[ColBosch]

While I won't say "never," anything more than "extinct" or "unique" is unlikely on the MUL. Again, this goes back to my days and may not be indicative of the current team's viewpoint, but we regarded it as too much effort for the wrong reasons. Such information is only of use as a straitjacket for games and fiction.

The very rough rarities listed in Combat Manual: Mercenaries are okay because the focus of the book is very narrow, and even the units noted as "rare" can still be taken one per company. Out of the hundreds of units listed, it's really neither a huge handicap nor a commentary on their actual in-universe numbers.

[JadeHellbringer]

War of Reaving Supplemental, P.17 has a list of Clan Mechs that are no longer in production. Might want to add those to the list.

[Sartris]

War of Reaving Supplemental, P.17 has a list of Clan Mechs that are no longer in production. Might want to add those to the list.

Eventually, though we've seen plenty of examples of inner sphere mechs that had their factories destroyed in the 29th century and still apparently have enough surviving examples to make faction lists into the 3100s. I imagine the Osteon and Cephalus will be kaput (currently listed as TBA for 3100+), but some of these chassis will continue to be produced in the inner sphere.

[MadCapellan]

That's a change, then. Our working definition when I was with the MUL team was "Extinct" = "Not enough left to be notable."

That's still the case. Extinct on the MUL means that there are no notable examples in operating condition amongst the forces of the Inner Sphere. However, because this is Battletech, there is always the possibility of -

• A working example being found in a Star League or other cache somewhere
• A local noble just so happening to have one in some backwater militia somewhere
• An aspiring technician hauling a non-functioning chassis out of a scrap-yard and patching it together for a MechWarrior in desperate need of a ride
• Etc,

Rather than tying players and GM's hands, the idea is simply to convey that an extinct machine is almost never seen on the battlefield. In a pick-up or scenario game, they should never be included without some serious thought. In a campaign, there should be a very good reason for why a MechWarrior has one. More than one should never be present in the same place at the same time ever.

War of Reaving Supplemental, P.17 has a list of Clan Mechs that are no longer in production. Might want to add those to the list.

Out of production is not the same thing as extinct, as Sartris mentioned. Plenty of 'Mechs have been patched and repaired for hundreds of years after their production has halted. Were out of production the same thing as extinct, there'd be only 30 or so non-extinct 'Mech designs during the 3rd Succession War!

[Kojak]

War of Reaving Supplemental, P.17 has a list of Clan Mechs that are no longer in production. Might want to add those to the list.

Out of production in the Homeworlds. Some if not most of those may still be produced in the Occupation Zones.

[Deadborder]

Out of production in the Homeworlds. Some if not most of those may still be produced in the Occupation Zones.

Though the Fenris is double-dipping in production extinction there

[Werewolf]

You might want to add the Dragoon to the list of (surely) extinct 'Mechs.
LoT pt. 2 explicitly says "a relative handful survived the post-Liberation purge, but not the first two Succession Wars", and I'd wonder if the design popped up again much later.

[Wrangler]

You might want to add the Dragoon to the list of (surely) extinct 'Mechs.
LoT pt. 2 explicitly says "a relative handful survived the post-Liberation purge, but not the first two Succession Wars", and I'd wonder if the design popped up again much later.

Not quite dead. Resurrected ComGuards (3141) apparently got their hands on some of them. Refitted survivors were used by Comstar's last stand in Epilson Eridani[/spoil]

[Scotty]

It therefore cannot quite be ruled out that Dragoons are gone from the RAF, either, considering that the Uraeus and other Reborn ComGuard 'Mechs make an appearance in TRO 3145: Republic

[Archangel]

The RAF does not field any reborn ComGuards designs.  Those new designs that have been seen entering combat are Davion, Lyran, Kuritan, Marik or Capellan (or whatever else insignia they happen to wearing at the time).   >:D

[Empyrus]

Pretty sure RAF (or some part of the Republic) adopted Uraeus and other ComGuard units as they were being manufactured already. Why waste the factories when you can make use of them?
EDIT TRO3145ROTS is pretty clear about this.

[Knightmare]

It therefore cannot quite be ruled out that Dragoons are gone from the RAF, either, considering that the Uraeus and other Reborn ComGuard 'Mechs make an appearance in TRO 3145: Republic

The handful of Dragoon ’Mechs used by the First Division all died on Epsilon Eridani. The Dragoon is definitely extinct.

The Uraeus and Kheper were kept by the RAF because A.) they were effective and proven units, with their own factory lines; B.) The RAF is desperate for military equipment; C.) Their unique origin plays well with the RAF's Fortress raids.

[Maingunnery]

The handful of Dragoon ’Mechs used by the First Division all died on Epsilon Eridani. The Dragoon is definitely extinct.

There could always be a 'Rim Worlds Republic in Exile' somewhere with a Dragoon factory.  ;)

[Scotty]

inb4 the Imperio Escorpion brings a Clantech Dragoon back to the Sphere in IlClan.

[nckestrel]

inb4 the Imperio Escorpion brings a Clantech Dragoon back to the Sphere in IlClan.

Here, have a Dr Pepper while you wait.

[Kit deSummersville]

Here, have a Dr Pepper while you wait.

Dr. Pepper?

[Knightmare]

inb4 the Imperio Escorpion brings a Clantech Dragoon back to the Sphere in IlClan.

 [face palm]

Unlikely, but a fun idea.

[Maelwys]

Hey, IO tells us the Imperio has reintroduced the "Improved" versions of the various weapon systems. It might not be that far fetched. After all, the Dragoon was dead until ComStar found some to revamp.

Not quite sure why anyone would say a design is definitely extinct when its been proven again and again that only the next sourcebook matters, not whatever has come before.

[Knightmare]

Cuz you need a basis to work from. As previously mentioned, authors will occasionally introduce an "extinct" design back into the story, but otherwise that unit is extinct in all other cases. How many Egyptian war chariots are in museums today? One, maybe two? They're pretty much extinct, but it doesn't preclude the possibility of some day uncovering more in the Valley of Kings or some other archaeological dig. Point is, the bloody things are extinct, until they're not, until they are again.

[ColBosch]

With a living universe, it's generally accepted that things may change with each sourcebook or novel. It's kind of the definition of such a fictional construct.

[VictorMorson]

It's a shame because I have become a huge fan of the Dragoon:  http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dragoon

There could always be a 'Rim Worlds Republic in Exile' somewhere with a Dragoon factory.  ;)

I fully admit we did this in our last campaign because it's such an awesome 'mech.  It's a tragedy that it's not apart of the main 'mechs still in circulation; I would be happy if Catalyst decided a factory was found.

There's other fun Rim Worlds 'mechs that are borderline extinct too, like the Phoenix, but none are as awesome.

[SteveRestless]

I'm not a fan of the extinct classification. It strikes me as a crying shame that units would be introduced and then prohibited in all but a narrow band of time. Sure there's the "Your game, your rules" caveat, but the thing is that's not always the case. One is not always the one running the game, can't always dictate availability of things by GM Fiat.  Not unless you just want to play against the megamek bot. Right now I'm lucky to have a pretty good crowd of friends who are open to just about any crazy thing I want to play, but I haven't always been so lucky, and there are players out there who take a far stricter approach to things.

Seems silly to put new units in a game, and then severely limit people's ability to make use of them. Especially when mechs that they served next to, are often still plentiful, but this one design is totally vanished.

[VictorMorson]

I'm not a fan of the extinct classification. It strikes me as a crying shame that units would be introduced and then prohibited in all but a narrow band of time. Sure there's the "Your game, your rules" caveat, but the thing is that's not always the case. One is not always the one running the game, can't always dictate availability of things by GM Fiat.  Not unless you just want to play against the megamek bot. Right now I'm lucky to have a pretty good crowd of friends who are open to just about any crazy thing I want to play, but I haven't always been so lucky, and there are players out there who take a far stricter approach to things.

Seems silly to put new units in a game, and then severely limit people's ability to make use of them. Especially when mechs that they served next to, are often still plentiful, but this one design is totally vanished.

I recommend you bend things a bit to have LosTech in the context of the universe.  Our last campaign had us find some of the lost Rim Worlds bases in the Periphery and eventually we indeed tracked down a Rim Worlds Republic Dragoon factory.  The Dragoon quickly became a campaign favorite, too, though we also included appearances by Phoenix and even the hilarious Rifleman III (or an attempt to rebuild it).

Best moment of the finale was Redjack Ryan (whom the canon left the fade of open ended) driving a Rifleman III with power armor clinging to it (which thanks to Edge, took a critical head hit for him, heh).

Though I do get what you mean; I wouldn't have brought the Dragoon in outside of the context of LosTech hunting.  Then again there WERE many 'mechs like this that got "Rediscovered" and put back into production - i.e. the Spector - so I don't know why they've not considered it.

[Deadborder]

War Machines become extinct in a universe with centuries of ongoing warfare and both technological advancement and decay? Perish the thought!

[Kit deSummersville]

I still have yet to see Ben Rome bust through a door because someone is using a Von Rohrs on the battlefield.

[SteveRestless]

War Machines become extinct in a universe with centuries of ongoing warfare and both technological advancement and decay? Perish the thought!

It's inconsistent though. The rules are in conflict with the lore in this regard, and the lore can't even get it's story straight. TW era rules say that CT Destruction is unrecoverable (the more reasonable BMR era rules only said that CT Destruction by Artillery or Ammo Explosion was unrecoverable) so, there's going to be a certain number of a chassis lost completely beyond repair. Without production, that number is going to dwindle ever smaller unless the mechs are just kept around for show and never enter into fights and yet, we have mechs minted in the star league era still in service. That are supposed to see real battles. Without even the advent of CASE to help preserve them in some cases.

Take the example that bugs me the most, the Woodsman. It's not actually closely related enough to its descendants to donate much in the way of parts. Wrong reactor for all of them. Wrong armor for most of them. Wrong myomers for all of them. Out of date electronics systems. Wrong gyro for all of them. So, I'm not sure what would have actually been cannibalized, short of melting it down for it's component metals (and why do that if there are Star League mechs still in service?)

Meanwhile, nobody bats an eye at the Glass Spider Thresher and Orion IIc still being in service. Those all pre-date the Woodsman's introduction. And the Summoner and Nova aren't that far behind it in age. And, all this in a faction that has never really experienced significant technological decay until perhaps the dark ages.

Yet, we're entirely comfortable declaring the design extinct, despite mechs far older than it still being used in regular service. What I'd love to hear, just once, is for someone with some authority to say "Alright, it's extinct because we wanted it to be extinct, not because it makes any sense for it to be extinct while lesser machines are preserved through the same environment" I'm still going to find things inconsistent, but the admission would mean a lot more than the flimsy attempts at justification.

I still have yet to see Ben Rome bust through a door because someone is using a Von Rohrs on the battlefield.

No, but I HAVE seen the guy across the table pitch a fit or refuse to play because I wanted to do something that didn't fit cleanly into canon. Numerous times, by different people.

[Suralin]

I still have yet to see Ben Rome bust through a door because someone is using a Von Rohrs on the battlefield.

I want to see that happen, but with Ben busting through a wall, Kool-Aid Man style.  ;D

No, but I HAVE seen the guy across the table pitch a fit or refuse to play because I wanted to do something that didn't fit cleanly into canon. Numerous times, by different people.

There is a pretty strong undercurrent of that in some of the BT fandom. I remember the anguished cries of "RUINED FOREVER" that accompanied Mektek's Ares in MekPak 1 back in 2003.

[ColBosch]

There is a pretty strong undercurrent of that in some of the BT fandom. I remember the anguished cries of "RUINED FOREVER" that accompanied Mektek's Ares in MekPak 1 back in 2003.

Thus why I feel - and I believe the MUL Team still feels - that detailed rarities for BattleTech units would be a Bad Idea. It's fascinating, and really sad, how quick BT players are to lump restrictions on each other.

[Deadborder]

BattleMech extinction has been a part of the universe since it's earliest days. The first mention of a specific extinct 'Mech was the Mackie in Tales of the Black Widow Company, published in 1984

[wantec]

I still have yet to see Ben Rome bust through a door because someone is using a Von Rohrs on the battlefield.

He did do it one time, but that was more b/c Hellbie had locked him in the bathroom rather than the Von Rohrs on the battlefield.

[Fat Guy]

I still have yet to see Ben Rome bust through a door because someone is using a Von Rohrs on the battlefield.

Hell, people have been using the Von Rohrs since '85. Except they've been calling it the Grand Dragon.  ;)

[Kit deSummersville]

No, but I HAVE seen the guy across the table pitch a fit or refuse to play because I wanted to do something that didn't fit cleanly into canon. Numerous times, by different people.

I think that may indicate more about the person than the game.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Those all pre-date the Woodsman's introduction. And the Summoner and Nova aren't that far behind it in age. And, all this in a faction that has never really experienced significant technological decay until perhaps the dark ages.

Frankly, I'm surprised nobody's brought back or updated the design. Sure the Timberwolf and the Gargoyle are pointed at for updated versions, but I liked its appearance more than I did either of the newer ones. And most of the reasons cited for its extinction no longer really held true in the post-Revival era.

[Maingunnery]

I think that extinction and rarity status are good things, it allows each era to have its own look. The best thing would be to have a set of general 'Mechs that stay in production (somehow) and the rest being designs that last only one or two eras in general use, before becoming rare or even extinct.

[SteveRestless]

I think that may indicate more about the person than the game.

I don't think the two are completely separated.

Simplified forms exist, but at it's core, the one game we've had for 30 years, that refuses to die or itsself go extinct is a very detailed game that draws in detail oriented people. It's no surprise to me then, that its going to draw in players who care about the facts that are established about the game.

Add to that, that even at it's best, Battletech isn't really a balanced game. I don't really think that's something that was worried about very hard at it's inception. And, lots of people have misgivings about custom mechs because so many of them hold the potential to be very cheesy mechanical exploitations of the customization system. This seems to bleed over into a wariness of using designs out of phase too.

As a result, I don't find it very surprising when I encounter players who are uptight about what designs or technology is deployed on the table. And I see enough complaint about it that I don't think it's a few fringe instances either. Pretending that it's just a few edge cases, and it doesn't matter what the books establish because people can do whatever they want, feels like a cop-out to me.

Frankly, I'm surprised nobody's brought back or updated the design. Sure the Timberwolf and the Gargoyle are pointed at for updated versions, but I liked its appearance more than I did either of the newer ones. And most of the reasons cited for its extinction no longer really held true in the post-Revival era.

Wolves in Exile would have been a great place to bring it back. Some laborer opens a box mis-labeled "2739 automatic bombsight prototype" and finds a memory core with the plans for the woodsman, sent by Ulric Kerensky as a hedge, and when the WiE lose Timber Wolf production, they start producing them.  Or Shark Foxes looking for a heavy omni they can sell to spheroids without giving away a huge advantage.

Tundra Wolf sure demonstrates that fundamentally 4/6{8} isn't a problem for the clans.

[Wikkid]

I don't think the two are completely separated.

*snip*

Pretending that it's just a few edge cases, and it doesn't matter what the books establish because people can do whatever they want, feels like a cop-out to .

I never experienced this in 30years of playing Battletech. The attitude I have usually experienced is "You play? Cool. I thought I was the only one around here".

[Knightmare]

Too funny. O0  I won't say what, but funny in a good way.

I like the idea of extinct and rare. I know there are drawbacks, but with BT's large unit lists era-rarity can be a decent compromise.   

[mike19k]

No, but I HAVE seen the guy across the table pitch a fit or refuse to play because I wanted to do something that didn't fit cleanly into canon. Numerous times, by different people.

Now I am not saying this is what you were doing, but I could see someone say No to playing someone else who it trying to min/max there forces. For example you are playing a game set in 3050, and you show up with a home built mercenary unit with all Clan machines, or you are playing in 3025 and they want to use all 2750 units. Things like that, the pitch a fit to me is more the other guy being a poor sport, but I could see saying that I am not going to play as that is not what we agreed on, or saying one player trying is trying to break spirit of what was agreed to. If it is just a pick up game, with the only balance being BV than canon has nothing to do with it, a campaign or historical type game than yes. 

[mbear]

As a result, I don't find it very surprising when I encounter players who are uptight about what designs or technology is deployed on the table. And I see enough complaint about it that I don't think it's a few fringe instances either. Pretending that it's just a few edge cases, and it doesn't matter what the books establish because people can do whatever they want, feels like a cop-out to me.

Have they given you reasons for their being uptight or is it just "Nope, no way, you're cheating you dirty cheater" kind of talk?

If they're unfamiliar with the equipment or options that's one thing because you could provide information, but if it's the "you're trying to munchkin me" then I don't have any suggestion.

[Nerroth]

It's a shame because I have become a huge fan of the Dragoon:  http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dragoon

I fully admit we did this in our last campaign because it's such an awesome 'mech.  It's a tragedy that it's not apart of the main 'mechs still in circulation; I would be happy if Catalyst decided a factory was found.

There's other fun Rim Worlds 'mechs that are borderline extinct too, like the Phoenix, but none are as awesome.

If you ever felt like taking a detour from the "Prime" BT timeline, the Dragoon is listed on the Rim Federation RAT in the Empires Aflame PDF.

Both they and the Terran Supremacy list the Mackie on their respective RATs, too.

Actually, the TSDF fields a number of units which in the "Prime" timeline were associated with the Word of Blake, such as the Celestials and Spectrals. Unlike with the Toyama (which is known to the TSDF as the Odysseus), the likes of the Archangel and Rusalka have the same names on either side of the misjump.

[Suralin]

Unlike with the Toyama (which is known to the TSDF as the Odysseus), the likes of the Archangel and Rusalka have the same names on either side of the misjump.

That makes sense, tho; with the TS's communication bureau remaining secular, and the DeCheviliers winding up on the throne, Conrad Toyama would never have become a faction leader. So he would have been considerably less influential on the events of the late 28th/early 29th century, and thus not really notable enough to name a 'Mech after.

[Wrangler]

Only problem of having the Archangel in there as different machine is that's not designed for normal pilots.

That would suggest the Supremacy in the Empire Aflame universe either had cyber warriors or Archangel and it's other Celestials were completely redesigned from what they were in the Prime universe.

[ColBosch]

Please take discussion of alternate universes elsewhere, thank you.

[Sjhernan3060]

Which mech designs that were once in production and general use have disappeared in the BT Universe?

As far as I know the original Mackie is the one mech design that is definitely no longer in use.    I seem to remember that the Shogun is down to only two mechs existing in the galaxy in operational condition and I think the Star League Era Spartan which as down to only about two dozen or so known examples prior to the Jihad and other unpleasantness is also about gone.

Is there a mech of the week write up on the spartan? It’s one of my favorite designs but I cannot find it

[Nebfer]

Personally I think we kinda do need a rarity listing, though one in general terms, that dose it by era and faction.

It's kinda silly when you have mechs that are stated to be replacing X mech not actually replacing said mech, and I think we even have in some cases a third mech trying to replace both... Though to be fair it's not unlike this dose not have precedent...
Though this dose get on some of the other things I find odd, is that we have mechs that are stated to be replacing mechs with fluff values (i.e. their electronics are dated), yet the game treats all units largely the same, so a mech made in 2500 performs exactly the same as one made in 2750 or even 3100.

[Wrangler]

I would prefer us having a commonality list, but it seems there no love for the effort from what i've read over the years from the TPTB.  That list could make unit's / variants become more interesting if they weren't around that much.  Like the SB variant of the Charger during the Succession Wars era.

[cavingjan]

it boils down to man-hours for volunteers and quite frankly burnout. The database running the MUL would need to be altered to accommodate the additional information with an appropriate web rewrite. Any entries for IS/Clan General would need split into all of their parts with individual values assigned to them. The last time I looked into it, I saw it was around a million entries that would need to be generated. It was more than what I wanted to tackle.

[ColBosch]

In the days before the MUL, when I was doing my own thing, I calculated that the vast majority of 'Mechs must have no more than a bare handful of examples extant, thanks to the huge number of variants and tiny military sizes. We're talking often no more than two or three dozen of any given model. It's a fool's errand to try to calculate rarities for every single unit.

[Daryk]

I think Xotl's RATs are as close as you'll get to explicit rarity information.  And honestly, I think he got pretty close...

[Hellraiser]

Is it just me or are some of the super rare variants the ones people field all the time in games.

A few off the top of my head that seem to be common on the table but in universe are rare/extinct.

Locust-1E  (Rare Model)
Jenner-7F  (Early Prototype, not mass production)
Trebuchet-5J   (Only Marik & uncommon there)
Wolverine-6M  (Common for Marik only but every player also wants them)
GrassHopper-5N  (unheard of before RS:Upgrades/3060era)
Charger-SB  (1 off Merc Unit customization)

[ColBosch]

And there's another reason to not bother with rarities: because people should feel free to pick the units they want to play with, and not have folks tell them that they're somehow "wrong."

[JadeHellbringer]

And there's another reason to not bother with rarities: because people should feel free to pick the units they want to play with, and not have folks tell them that they're somehow "wrong."

I dealt with someone years ago, just after FM:U came out, who pointed out to me that some Omnimech config I was using (I don't remember what it was even) was illegal for me to use because I'm a Jade Falcon player and their RAT didn't show that variant. It's an Omni, come on, I could turn that chassis into just about anything I want- that's the point to an Omnimech, after all.

[jklantern]

I dealt with someone years ago, just after FM:U came out, who pointed out to me that some Omnimech config I was using (I don't remember what it was even) was illegal for me to use because I'm a Jade Falcon player and their RAT didn't show that variant. It's an Omni, come on, I could turn that chassis into just about anything I want- that's the point to an Omnimech, after all.

The only time I can think of that making sense is if a weapon is faction exclusive, which doesn't tend to remain the case for terribly long.  ESPECIALLY in the Clans.

[nckestrel]

And there's another reason to not bother with rarities: because people should feel free to pick the units they want to play with, and not have folks tell them that they're somehow "wrong."

On the other hand, plenty of players voluntarily want to restrict themselves.  That's why I don't have an M1A1 Abrams in my Federated Suns force after all. Sure it's theoretically possible, but 1) there's no record sheet for it, and 2) it's not what I want when I want to build a Federated Suns force.

Of course, when you try to actually build such a list, anything much more than everything to everybody is going to conflict at some level with existing canon. Because somebody has given X unit to Y faction at some point..

[Daemion]

More than one should never be present in the same place at the same time ever.

Otherwise, it would be a thing of legend - like the battle between two Goliaths, an already rare Mech.

[Daemion]

I recommend you bend things a bit to have LosTech in the context of the universe.  Our last campaign had us find some of the lost Rim Worlds bases in the Periphery and eventually we indeed tracked down a Rim Worlds Republic Dragoon factory. 

If I recall rightly, you don't even have to go into the periphery. The Lyran Commonwealth absorbed a lot of Rim Republic worlds, changing its borders. A few more Republic worlds that weren't resettled are inside LyrCom borders. Plenty of room for treasure hunting.

[NeonKnight]

See, here's my thoughts on this.

I have no issue with EXTINCT = NONE LEFT.

But I honestly think a there should really be another ratting/availability BEFORE extinct.

Take the Spartan SPT-N2 for example.

The way the MUL is currently set up, on Dec 31st 3085 (end of the Jihad era), there could literally be hundreds of them throughout the Inner Sphere in the use of Word of Blake, Comstar and Mercenary Units. Then, on January 1st 3086 (beginning of the Early Republic Era), it's like someone, somewhere hit a HPG Self-Destruct switch, and every last Spartan, including those in production, went KABLOOIE! The Factory(ies) all suffered a Power outage and the computers containing the schematics only had the files saved in RAM so they were lost when the computers lost power.

Sounds silly I know, but that is exactly how it is handled via the MUL. Now sure, I could see maybe by Late Republic (3101) they are all extinct, but maybe a SCARCE rating needs to be implemented to reflect this transitionary period.

[guardiandashi]

See, here's my thoughts on this.

I have no issue with EXTINCT = NONE LEFT.

But I honestly think a there should really be another ratting/availability BEFORE extinct.

Take the Spartan SPT-N2 for example.

The way the MUL is currently set up, on Dec 31st 3085 (end of the Jihad era), there could literally be hundreds of them throughout the Inner Sphere in the use of Word of Blake, Comstar and Mercenary Units. Then, on January 1st 3086 (beginning of the Early Republic Era), it's like someone, somewhere hit a HPG Self-Destruct switch, and every last Spartan, including those in production, went KABLOOIE! The Factory(ies) all suffered a Power outage and the computers containing the schematics only had the files saved in RAM so they were lost when the computers lost power.

Sounds silly I know, but that is exactly how it is handled via the MUL. Now sure, I could see maybe by Late Republic (3101) they are all extinct, but maybe a SCARCE rating needs to be implemented to reflect this transitionary period.

I agree with this especially when you consider units like the LAM's
I know some people despise those units, but I just found the "official" end of them ridiculous there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of them in service across the inner sphere and when the last factory was captured (and destroyed) by the clans they all died off within a year??? there were battlemech designs (like the clint) where there were maybe 100ish in service for centuries after the 1 factory that made them was lost or repurposed. I realize its not exactly the same thing but...

[Daemion]

It's funny to me the dichotomy of thought in Mech design.

In real life, TRos sell. TRos about Mechs, especially.

And, thus we have the large plethora of Mechs. 

Part of me likes the idea of perpetual icons, chassis that you find in all eras to all factions, or even to a particular faction. Something like 2 or 3 per weight class (light/medium/heavy/assault) per faction should be enough.

When I look at all the different new chassis, I think that a lot of what's been done in that new/old Mech could have been done on any of the existing icon chassis as a variant. You can get plenty of new art and model options with new variants. I know that I have a Vulture B mod waiting to be painted and based. Some people get into that.

But, then, I also think about how big the IS is, and the BTU in general. There are around 2000 populated systems. There would be plenty of room for each world to have its own series of bots to have running around. Instead of having Pokemon Mechs 45-150 being cranked out in the Kanto Region from a single Factory world, maybe each world should have a small factory for its own builds which solely get fielded by its defenders.

I would love to see that implemented.

Sadly, the lore won't allow for it, because a lot of the 350+ Pokemon BattleMech Chassis are out of the Star League era, procured by the Hegemony. It's probably fair that we're looking at about half to 1/3rd of the total.

Then, there are the dedicated factory worlds, where each of the existing designs share a factory with a handful of other Mechs.

I do like the idea of Era Prominence for each, doing as somebody already suggested - giving each army in the different eras its own look.

Now that we have the new boxed sets coming out as starting points for new players, I can strongly tell you that the Mechs out of those boxes should have a version in all eras of Mech combat, with only a few rare instances in the early development of BattleMechs.

[Daemion]

I agree with this especially when you consider units like the LAM's
I know some people despise those units, but I just found the "official" end of them ridiculous there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of them in service across the inner sphere and when the last factory was captured (and destroyed) by the clans they all died off within a year??? there were battlemech designs (like the clint) where there were maybe 100ish in service for centuries after the 1 factory that made them was lost or repurposed. I realize its not exactly the same thing but...

And, due to the nature of LAM tech during the Succession Wars, they weren't lost from over-exposure to combat. A lot of LAMs were Hangar Mascots.

[Deadborder]

I agree with this especially when you consider units like the LAM's
I know some people despise those units, but I just found the "official" end of them ridiculous there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of them in service across the inner sphere and when the last factory was captured (and destroyed) by the clans they all died off within a year??? there were battlemech designs (like the clint) where there were maybe 100ish in service for centuries after the 1 factory that made them was lost or repurposed. I realize its not exactly the same thing but...

By the 3050s, there weren't "thousands" of LAMs. There probably wasn't even hundreds. There were a few scattered across select House and Merc commands, and even those were perishingly rare. Added to that, they were maintenance intensive, and required special parts that could only be sourced from that one factory. A facotry that nobody had the ability (or at least inclination) to replace.

Added to that you have the technological creep of reintroduced Star League tech and suddenly appearing Clan Tech rendsering them even more obsolete and diminishing their effectiveness.

[glitterboy2098]

I agree with this especially when you consider units like the LAM's
I know some people despise those units, but I just found the "official" end of them ridiculous there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of them in service across the inner sphere and when the last factory was captured (and destroyed) by the clans they all died off within a year??? there were battlemech designs (like the clint) where there were maybe 100ish in service for centuries after the 1 factory that made them was lost or repurposed. I realize its not exactly the same thing but...

i agree that it seems odd, since the LAM's were going strong for 300+ years operating entirely off of warehoused supplies (and parts commonalities between the LAM's and the standard wasp/stinger/Phawks). and we have mechs liek the clint and firestarter, which were never as common or widely built to start with, that managed to last far longer off far scarcer supplies of spare parts.

honestly i wish they'd fluffed the end of the LAM as due to combat losses vs the clans instead. would have made a lot more sense than them suddenly becoming unuseable for no apparent reason.

[ColBosch]

That's not what "Extinct" means. It means "in too few numbers to be important." The LAMs didn't evaporate, but they had no more spare parts and too few remained to matter much.

[Deadborder]

i agree that it seems odd, since the LAM's were going strong for 300+ years operating entirely off of warehoused supplies (and parts commonalities between the LAM's and the standard wasp/stinger/Phawks). and we have mechs liek the clint and firestarter, which were never as common or widely built to start with, that managed to last far longer off far scarcer supplies of spare parts.

honestly i wish they'd fluffed the end of the LAM as due to combat losses vs the clans instead. would have made a lot more sense than them suddenly becoming unuseable for no apparent reason.

LAMs were not "going strong" by any means. Their numbers were in constant decline for centuries, and many operable LAMs suffered from shortages of parts and equipment that they simply could not replace. There's numerous mentions of LAMs being stuck in one mode or unable to properly transform because of missing or damaged components. The low-rate production from LexaTech and the warehouses were not keeping ahead of losses by any means.

If you look carefully, you can see that a lot of LAM-heavy units were destroyed in the Fourth Succession War, such as the Marik Guard or the LAM units of Wolfs Dragoons. That's probably a big part of what sent them on the path to extinction. By the time of the Clan Invasion, those numbers would have also dwindled.

Finally, I don't see how the Firestarter is a rare 'Mech. Yes, it's original factory was destroyed, but that was not until some point in the Third Succession War. Even then, Coventry Metal Works picked up production and continued to do such continuously until at least 3145. The Firestarter is frequently seen in units across all five Successor States, Mercenaries and the Periphery. Furthermore, unlike a LAM, it does not require specialised parts, and could easily accept components "donated" by another 'Mech. There's really no comparison between the two.

...also, what ColBosch said.

[SCC]

i agree that it seems odd, since the LAM's were going strong for 300+ years operating entirely off of warehoused supplies (and parts commonalities between the LAM's and the standard wasp/stinger/Phawks). and we have mechs liek the clint and firestarter, which were never as common or widely built to start with, that managed to last far longer off far scarcer supplies of spare parts.

They weren't running off warehoused parts, there was still a single factory making parts.

honestly i wish they'd fluffed the end of the LAM as due to combat losses vs the clans instead. would have made a lot more sense than them suddenly becoming unuseable for no apparent reason.

*Headesk* There was still a factory making them, or at least one model (Which was more then could be said for several designs at the time) so even if EVERY SINGLE LAM in service in the IS was lost fighting the Clans they wouldn't have become extinct. It was the loss of that factory combined with the fact that LAMs don't have parts compatibility with either 'Mechs or ASFs that killed them.

It's funny to me the dichotomy of thought in Mech design.

In real life, TRos sell. TRos about Mechs, especially.

No they don't, pretty sure somebody (Herb while he was Line Dev?) said that this isn't true anymore, if it ever was.

[Daemion]

No they don't, pretty sure somebody (Herb while he was Line Dev?) said that this isn't true anymore, if it ever was.

That may not be true, now, but the notion definitely seemed to drive the creation of TRos in the past, and that leads to the Chassis glut we have today.

[SCC]

I figure that FASA was probably like a lot of modern day companies that are heavy on the bro-culture and the people running it aren't exactly doing the best job. FASA might well have used a very simple and poor system which only put the TRO sales data against the cost to make it, CGL probably puts sales for the TRO and it's associated RS volumes against the costs to make them (RS may well sell much worse), plus the costs of errata and things like the MUL.

There's also the possibilities that the TRO gold mine has run out, or that the much decreased rate of plot advancement hampers TRO releases

[Daemion]

LAMs were not "going strong" by any means. Their numbers were in constant decline for centuries, and many operable LAMs suffered from shortages of parts and equipment that they simply could not replace. There's numerous mentions of LAMs being stuck in one mode or unable to properly transform because of missing or damaged components. The low-rate production from LexaTech and the warehouses were not keeping ahead of losses by any means.

Those mentions could be the proverbial interesting circumstance that gets a mention, and not the common case. Also, look at the changes in fiction as each new mention comes out and note what side of the Harmony Gold Suit line that stands.

So, a lot of the stuff you're mentioning is mostly speculation, and not hard fact. There definitely seems to be two biases regarding the proliferation of LAMs and their current activity. Until a sourcebook comes out singing 'The wicked LAM is dead' a la Wizard of Oz, and a Dev confirms it, I'm definitely exercising the 'it's your game' and 'What Colbosch said' policies.

Finally, I don't see how the Firestarter is a rare 'Mech. Yes, it's original factory was destroyed, but that was not until some point in the Third Succession War. Even then, Coventry Metal Works picked up production and continued to do such continuously until at least 3145. The Firestarter is frequently seen in units across all five Successor States, Mercenaries and the Periphery. Furthermore, unlike a LAM, it does not require specialised parts, and could easily accept components "donated" by another 'Mech. There's really no comparison between the two.

The Firestarter is said to be rare. It's only deployed at regimental levels and carefully so, because is so specialized, like another Mech series constantly talked about, or the Ostscout.  #P  Sure, every house has one. It may even be seen in Company or Battalion formations, especially for irregular style forces like mercenaries that decide they must have one. But, you don't see them fielded in groups. Not like a lot of other Mechs. A lance of Dragons or Panthers I won't bat an eye at. Nor a lance of Locusts, Stingers, or Wasps. But a full lance of Firestarters? Only in Mech Commander or other computer games.

And, depending on source, most Firestarters were actually being maintained from parts warehouses for a time. For me, I kinda like wrapping my head around the notion of trying to reconcile the new fact with the old fact. It's quite possible that many units with a Firestarter could only pull from parts warehouses, not being able to get fresh replacements from the nuFactory at all or right away.

It was the Succession Wars, after all.

That aside, a couple other things.

I've seen way too much in newer books that are supposed to be a reprint of the older source material keeping mechs alive that were slowly going the way of the dodo by suddenly bringing up some factory putting out new chassis somewhere. Honestly, they've shown that with enough work, there are plenty of garage shops that can assemble Mechs from scratch and keep a design alive. The Goliath is said to have some of those on various worlds. It doesn't have to be one of the large ones that seem to be the default.


Clan Tech is possible in the Inner Sphere, now that they've had a chance to backwards engineer it, and those weapons can be made the same way as a lost chassis. The only reason it hasn't taken on as mainstream output in the IS has so much to do with infrastructure. With the destruction of the Jihad and the reformations of the Republic, I imagine that old infrastructure can readily be upgraded post 3150.

How many old designs will have to undergo new upgrade refits or be scrapped then?

[Deadborder]

I've seen way too much in newer books that are supposed to be a reprint of the older source material keeping mechs alive that were slowly going the way of the dodo by suddenly bringing up some factory putting out new chassis somewhere. Honestly, they've shown that with enough work, there are plenty of garage shops that can assemble Mechs from scratch and keep a design alive. The Goliath is said to have some of those on various worlds. It doesn't have to be one of the large ones that seem to be the default.

Guess what? FASA did that, and usually very quickly too.

A lot of the fluff in the original TRO:3025 was contradicted by FASA within a year or two with the House books. They handed out production lines for plenty of supposedly rare and production extinct designs, including the Goliath and, yes the Firestarter (and a few others I can think of as well). This is stuff that has been in print since the eighties, for the bulk of Battletech's existence. In many cases, the only source that claims a lot of 'Mech designs are production extinct is TRO:3025, which was very quickly internally contradictory and apparently quietly filed away.

Once again, outside of TRO:3025, there isn't a single source that says the Firestarter is particularly rare.

[Col Toda]

Nothing really goes away . Solaris VII Stables machine parts and make new unique mechs or reproduce some nostalgic mech for advertising purposes . After the Jihad even LAM tech information is sufficiently available if they so choose to build them . The WOB even revisited discontinued chassis to for shock and Awe purposes . The Xanthus quad with the mech mortars do a credible job between air burst and semi-guided ammo against infantry , battle armor, and light units .

[Empyrus]

Once again, outside of TRO:3025, there isn't a single source that says the Firestarter is particularly rare.

Which source indicated the Firestarter was usually attached at company (or was it higher?) level to units?
If it was done like that, then it probably ain't a common 'Mech (as in found just about every company or battalion by late Third Succession War) but it won't be a rare one either, considering how many companies and battalions there were during the Star League era.

[skiltao]

outside of TRO:3025, there isn't a single source that says the Firestarter is particularly rare.

TR:3050 agrees that Firestarters are rare. The description is comparable to that for Ravens and Hermes. Not that TR:3050 is infallible either, mind you; but you don't throw out the whole text just because one aspect of it is flawed. The 1980's House books put a lot of 'Mechs into production, sure, and maybe the intent was even to put every 'Mech from TR:3025 into production. Yet the general rarity described in TR:3025 still seems relevant: Goliaths are in production, but only minimally; Spiders, Cicadas and Vulcans are in production, but again, not in large numbers and they're still not common in general. There's no reason to think the Firestarter would be different.

By the 3050s, there weren't "thousands" of LAMs. There probably wasn't even hundreds.

There was still a factory making them, or at least one model (Which was more then could be said for several designs at the time) so even if EVERY SINGLE LAM in service in the IS was lost fighting the Clans they wouldn't have become extinct. It was the loss of that factory combined with the fact that LAMs don't have parts compatibility with either 'Mechs or ASFs that killed them.

At least in the 3025 Free Worlds League, LAMs pop up as often as assault 'Mechs do. So even if one or two notable battalions are lost, there would still be quite a few, and the FWL sat out most conflicts up to Guerrero. I can buy the Federated Commonwealth and Capellan Confederation losing most of their LAMs by 3050, but the Free World and Combine populations would've survived longer. (If we're going to kill them off, may as well do in the FedCom Civil War, where "we had nice things and then we tore it all down" is the theme of the day.)

[Wotan]

As long as we have no hard numbers on any single mech model of ...
- how many mechs a specific factory is producing per year
- how many mechs are lost in combat per year
- how many mechs are rated unserviceable because of missing spare parts per year
... you can't argue about rare or not rare.

There are few examples were we have hard numbers - and even that can only be true for a specific time. Numbers like the Valkyrie from TRO3025 with 130 per year are very rare. I remember a list of production rates in the first Housebook Marik. Therein we have a range from 4 Goliath to 31 Wasp. Even if that list is retconned we still have more sources of productions less than 12 per year than we have production in hundreds.
Without hard numbers it is always easy to explain specific mechs are rare - even if you have a factory still working. With the same ease you can argue that the same mech is omnipresent.
There is a reason why the official sources avoid hard numbers. So we all can find the right arguments for our own home-grown games.

[Col Toda]

I do not believe any mech will  ever be truly extinct . The WoB brought a lot back . Solaris VII Stables bring forth unique mechs with fabricated parts so should a manufacturer sponsor them having them make a formally extinct model to announce or celebrate the occasion would make sense . As for all the WoB Celestial Mechs huge numbers have gone unaccounted for , gone to the hidden worlds and just about fifty bit players and every major government has a bunch squirreled away for some deniable  black op at some future time . So nobody believes they are extinct .