Talk to me about SLDF designs that Clanners use: The Pillager etc.

[Colt Ward]

Not completely true . . . Spirits will de-commission a cluster if its not pure . . . so if it does not have 3 mech trinaries, a vehicle trinary and a infantry trinary it will be sidelined until its up to that standard.  Its also why the clusters have no ASF forces integrated, because that was not the structure Nicky handed down.  It means they do not use Command Stars, Novas or Supernovas, or even binaries.  To me that raises the question of where they put protomechs in that structure- mechs or infantry?

So they could have had several provisional clusters that just did not have all the integral parts to be official and on the roster they handed in for the Grand Council project known as FMCC & FMWC.

[The Eagle]

I raised the "where do ProtoMechs go?" question in the Blood Spirit faction thread quite a while back.  While I don't recall anyone ever finding a canon quote, the general consensus was that Proto stars replaced 'Mechs stars in the 'Mech trinaries on a one-for-one basis.  I was more in favor of using them to replace Elemental stars since 5x Elementals to a star = 5x ProtoMechs to a star, but I bowed to the logic that ProtoMechs are more 'Mech than infantry.

[Wrangler]

I wonder what became of the Pillager in Clan service.  Unlike the Devastator (prototypes at time of the SL Civil War) and the Nightstar (was mere blueprints), Pillager had been in service for long time along with Emperor. Pillager was produce in (i would assume with mass produced 'Mech) in large enough numbers to be included most of the surviving Royals as they fled to the Deep Periphery.  Pillager certainly a tough enough machine that could been easily upgraded with latest Clan tech.

I know in reality the Pillager came along way after the clans were invented by FASA. I still wonder what happened.

[Colt Ward]

It would be interesting to get a new series of IICs using what are now SL classics such as the Pillager, Emperor 6A and others listed in the Reunification War.  Some we get like the Highlander IIC and others seem a bit misnamed . . . Warhammer IIC could in reality be looked at as a Thug IIC.

[Maelwys]

I wonder what became of the Pillager in Clan service.  Unlike the Devastator (prototypes at time of the SL Civil War) and the Nightstar (was mere blueprints), Pillager had been in service for long time along with Emperor. Pillager was produce in (i would assume with mass produced 'Mech) in large enough numbers to be included most of the surviving Royals as they fled to the Deep Periphery.  Pillager certainly a tough enough machine that could been easily upgraded with latest Clan tech.

I know in reality the Pillager came along way after the clans were invented by FASA. I still wonder what happened.

Probably the same thing as alot of other designs. Got used until it was time to replace them, and then they got shoved into a Brian Cache someplace. Why they didn't get a IIC treatment could simply be because someone flipped a coin. "Highlander or Pillager?" "Eh...Highlander."

[Colt Ward]

Well, I also look at it as this . . . what pre-Omni Golden Century assaults did they have floating around?  Annhilators, Imp C?, Stone Rhino, Banes, Supernova, Highlander IIC, Warhammer IIC, Marauder IIC, Shogun C?, Blood Kite and Phoenix Hawk IIC . . . 3 of those are questionable (Anni, Imp & Shogun), Stone Rhino is supposed to be rare, Blood Kite is exclusive-ish, Bane & SRN are limited spread IIRC . . . Highlander is just a rebuild of IS chassis with later intended production?  Which leave the Warhammer IIC, Marauder IIC and Phoenix Hawk IIC as commonly available assaults.  No Clan 100t/95t/90t designs for the Golden Century?  Kind of hard to believe the Smoke Jaguars would not have some 3/5 100t Clan machine to stroke their ego.

[Wrangler]

What hurts me is the unseen IICs aren't suppose to be in Golden Century.  At least the last time i asked about it.

[Hellraiser]

To me that raises the question of where they put protomechs in that structure- mechs or infantry?

So they could have had several provisional clusters that just did not have all the integral parts to be official and on the roster they handed in for the Grand Council project known as FMCC & FMWC.

I raised the "where do ProtoMechs go?" question in the Blood Spirit faction thread quite a while back.  While I don't recall anyone ever finding a canon quote, the general consensus was that Proto stars replaced 'Mechs stars in the 'Mech trinaries on a one-for-one basis.

I don't recall where I read it, but yes, Proto's replace Mechs not Elementals.
I think it might have been in the Arcadia fluff? 
With limited access to Mechs the Blood Spirits started replacing their 3rd Mech Trinary with Protomechs to save resources.

Also, Colt.
I think its less several partial clusters sitting around & more, 3 heavily damaged clusters reformed into 2 full, or 1 full & shuffled the rest around to replace minor losses elsewhere.

[Wotan]

With the strikt layout of their clusters i always considered the Bloodspirits would use the ProtoMechs similar to their ASF. As a separate force that is attached if needed.

And for the sake of the Pillager and many other SLDF mechs that were introduced in the TROs after the first secondliners shown in TRO3055, i think they are strong enough to stay unmodified. We know the clans have many SL tech designs in their secondline ranks. So some rare Pillagers might be found there. They definitely will have fought the hardest battles in their time. So few are left to do so now.
But why not build new ones? I think that role was filled by the Highlander IIC and the Stone Rhino in the early clan days. No need for another designs with similar profile. And while the production for the Stone Rhino seems to be hold for some time, other designs came up to fill the role again. So no need for new Pillagers again.

The sheer number of clan designs is a hard break to their way to avoid waste. I think at least a third of all designs could be eliminated without loosing anything from the inplay point of view of a true warrior caste. ;)

[pensiveswetness]

I wonder what became of the Pillager in Clan service.  Unlike the Devastator (prototypes at time of the SL Civil War) and the Nightstar (was mere blueprints), Pillager had been in service for long time along with Emperor. Pillager was produce in (i would assume with mass produced 'Mech) in large enough numbers to be included most of the surviving Royals as they fled to the Deep Periphery.  Pillager certainly a tough enough machine that could been easily upgraded with latest Clan tech.

I know in reality the Pillager came along way after the clans were invented by FASA. I still wonder what happened.

The Pentagon Civil War and Operation Klondike is probably what happened. The pre-clan worlds likely had very little manufacturing capacity when the SLDF-In-Exile started so parts would start to be a problem, first off. Factor in how not nice SLDF Davions and Cappies played with each other and very quickly machines would die, by hook or crook, with little or no way to replace them.

[Colt Ward]

Wotan, look up a few posts where I lay out what the Clans had in the way of assault machines before Omnis . . .

Nicki took what he could to Strana Mechty and built the logistical base to support the proto-Clans as well as re-ordering the society.  While caches that were found in the Pentagon worlds did become important, it was not just for parts- look what happened with the cache the Wolverines found.  The Clans probably fielded Atlas (know Nick did), Pillagers, Emperors, Highlanders, maybe Mackie, maybe prototype Devastators, and other elite assault units during the early years.  The one I always wanted fleshed out was the Storm Giant since that is what the Scylla came from, was it a SL-era mech, pre-Klondike or early prototype Clan equipment mech.

Look at the Highlander for example, 'thousands' traveled with the SLDF on the Exodus.  It says that no new Highlanders have been produced in more than a century (3060) but the occasional few are upgraded from the caches.  But almost 1500 Highlanders were either upgraded or new build IICs were made in the 200 years since the design debuted with the Adders having the most due to the Burrock absorption.  Though many have been scrapped or destroyed, several hundred still serve in the toumans.  The Crusader Wolves field a lot to offset losses from the Refusal War, opening a cache to commission several stars worth . . . which is 10-15 (maybe more) Highlander IICs or plain Highlanders they had in reserve.

Say 300, divided between the 15 Clans at that time . . . and its like 20 a Clan, though I would expect more.

So . . . honestly, the Pillager is like a mech I would expect the Jaguars to adopt or seek before Clan tech comes out . . . and perhaps the Stone Rhino was their attempt to build a Pillager IIC though it had problems that kept it from being produced as much as some players wish.

[Wotan]

Basically what i say. We don't see Pillagers in the RATs. But when you take a look in the MUL, it is Clan general even in the time of the first invasion. In my eyes it looks like the Pillager is not extinct within the ranks, but extremely rare.

We know not much about the production capacities of the early clans. We know not even the complete list of produced designs. So far no official source says explicitely that no Pillager was produced in the homeworlds. ;) But that would be a far stretch.
I still see no reason for the clans to spend that ressources as they had plenty of similar designs in their caches and had enough designs in production that fills the same role. Demand was to preserve ressources.
When it comes to the decision to produce the Highlander - or maybe already an upgraded version - there was no place for a Pillager production anymore. And the Highlander was always far popular than the Pillager.

[Colt Ward]

What would have been in production among the early Clans?  I listed out the 3 common assault mechs being built though at some point someone starts at least limited production of the Highlander IIC.  Yeah, the Pillager's main battery does not drastically improve by switching to Clan tech, it just gets hardier and the secondary battery of lasers does get better.

If we ever get a Golden Century it will hopefully provide a bit more along these lines.

[Jellico]

Say 300, divided between the 15 Clans at that time . . . and its like 20 a Clan, though I would expect more.

I once did some calculations showing Clan Ghost Bear had maybe 100 Executioners in service in 3067. Executioners. In CGB. There simply aren't that many assault Mechs in service.

[Wrangler]

I once did some calculations showing Clan Ghost Bear had maybe 100 Executioners in service in 3067. Executioners. In CGB. There simply aren't that many assault Mechs in service.

Woah, I'd never would have thought there were so few frontline machines like Executioner around. 

It makes more sense the Pillager was less in number since they hadn't been written into the story but years later. Thus why not showing up anywhere during the actual Clan Invasion to garrison worlds.

[JadeHellbringer]

It DOES make some sense. Consider that Clan militaries aren't all that large compared to Inner Sphere armies. Then consider that the old rule was that assault Mechs make up a very small percentage of most armies, less than 10% as I recall (off the top of what I admit is a feeble mind). I could see machines like the Masakari and Daishi being extremely rare, even in the Clans that use them more than others like the Jaguars.

[Hellraiser]

It DOES make some sense. Consider that Clan militaries aren't all that large compared to Inner Sphere armies. Then consider that the old rule was that assault Mechs make up a very small percentage of most armies, less than 10% as I recall (off the top of what I admit is a feeble mind). I could see machines like the Masakari and Daishi being extremely rare, even in the Clans that use them more than others like the Jaguars.

10% is the amount for 4th SW IS Armies on average.  (30-40-20-10)

The clans I assume are similar to the SLDF.
The SLDF, if we assume 50/50 in each "sized" regiment & equal distribution of regiment types are more like 17-33-33-17.

That is a lot of assumptions of course but we don't have specific #s for the era & I go equal/even splits over trying any sort of justification as to why LightHorse would be any more/less common than Dragoon.