If you could only have one class of WarShip...

[Arkansas Warrior]

...what would it be?  Let's say your faction has just a shipyard capable of producing one type of WarShip.  You can choose any WarShip available in the era, but let's say you can only build 250 kilotons of ship per year, so if you're building McKennas, you're going to be heavily outnumbered by a neighbor who's building Foxes.




To complicate things a little more, let's break it up into three eras:
Succession Wars-Somehow, against all odds, you've miraculously preserved one shipyard.
Clans-You're building up your Touman right around the time of REVIVAL.
Blackout-The HPGs have just gone dark and you have decided your faction needs WarShips to see you through these uncertain times.




What do you build your fleet out of, and why?

[Giovanni Blasini]

Canon ships only, I'm guessing?

[Arkansas Warrior]

Please.

[RunandFindOut]

Succession Wars-Pinto (given my options I'd shave some cargo for armor)
Clan Invasion-Fox class (not ideal but best available at time.)
Blackout-Don't really have a clue as I tend not to pay attention to the setting past the Jihad and don't really like the Jihad either.

[Dragon Cat]

Succession Wars: New Syrtis - Enough Aerospace Fighters to swarm most other ships I'll expect to encounter and enough weapons of her own to throw down if required.

Clan Invasion: York - again the aerofighters give options over other designs, light weight means I'll have plenty of them for escorting the fleet in.

Dark Age: Avalon it's a backwards flying brick with capital missiles.  Less fighters than I'd ideally want but plenty DropShip collars.  I'd load up with a mix of carriers and pocket warships with AMS to give defence screen and additional attack.

(I was tempted to say Lola III for all three answers and just spam them with long range fire but the ship really needs more armour and AMS)

[Giovanni Blasini]

Part of me wants to say Tracker or Bonaventure due to my natural levels of snark.

That said, Tracker has the added bonus of docking collars it can use for fighter carriers, Pocket WarShips or civvie transports if pretending to be a Merchant.  At two a year, you could crank them out like mad.

Despite its low cargo fraction, the Nightwing is high on the list, thanks to its firepower being so high for such a small package.

Foxes seem perfect for this challenge, or maybe vice versa. Too obvious, and already mentioned.

Barons have big naval laser arrays that help with ranged fire, and potentially murdering fighters. Armor is thin, and you only get one every two years.

In the end, at 720 kilotons, and one per three years, I'd probably go with the Black Lion I. Maybe not the best choice, but I designed if, so I have a big soft spot for it. :)

[Jellico]

Part of me wants to say Tracker or Bonaventure due to my natural levels of snark.

That said, Tracker has the added bonus of docking collars it can use for fighter carriers, Pocket WarShips or civvie transports if pretending to be a Merchant.  At two a year, you could crank them out like mad.

40 Bug-Eyes a year. They don't make DropShips that fast.

Heck if I was spamming anything in the lead up to Revival it would be Odysseys. LF batteried JumpShip with four collars? Catch me if you can Spheroid scum. That's serious strategic mobility.

Anyway.
Succession Wars? Vincent. Orbital bombardment time. Heck, who am I kidding. I am in the Homeworlds. Yorks. They are a great ship in a Trial environment.
Revival? Potemkins. Sure Foxes give you better collars per year, but you don't get the cargo capacity.
Black Out? I wouldn't touch a WarShip with a 20ft pole. The militaries are so run down you need everything else first. Then...

[Cryhavok101]

Succession Wars-"The Time of Atrocities as Party Favors"- M-5 Caspar Drone
Clan Invasion-Aegis or Liberator
Blackout-Conqueror (or Kimagure)

[snewsom2997]

I would lean more towards the Commonwealth, 6 hardpoints, for PWS and ASF Carrier.

If I am spamming the field, go Fredesa/Titan combo.

[Weirdo]

Kirishima. Use my WarShips to control the spaceways, and DropShips can handle any other jobs.

[vidar]

Newgrange- if I am limited to one class I would focus on a job impossible to do with smaller vessels.  And the ability to fix all that space based infrastructure would be invaluable.

[snewsom2997]

Newgrange- if I am limited to one class I would focus on a job impossible to do with smaller vessels.  And the ability to fix all that space based infrastructure would be invaluable.

So you will be building one of these every 9 years, awfully tempting target, to do a lot of damage, from an enemies perspective. Without a century of peace you wouldn't have enough time to build enough to do anything. OP Stated production capacity of 250Kt per year.

[sadlerbw]

Tough one.

Succession Wars: I would like something like the Liberator or the Tharkad. They really are do-it-all type ships with ample fighter bays and dropship collars, plus tough armor and enough firepower to hurt just about anything else out there. They both even have NPPC or NL bays that can do a reasonable job at bracket fire. The Tharkad wins on heat management, but the Liberator has that nice armor on the nose and aft. In fact, the only problem with them is their mass. The restriction of a quarter-million tons of ship per year really hurts. That just isn't much tonnage, so we are looking at one of these ships every four years. If it was one every two years, I might still go for them, but only producing three ships in a decade is going to leave me spread pretty thin. This is, honestly, a problem in all of your timeframes.

Being capped at 250k tons per year, I might actually look at the Davion Block II. At 520K tons, I'm pretty sure I could give my workers some overtime pay and squeeze one out every two years. It doesn't quite have the armor of a York, or it's larger fighter compliment, but it is 80K tons lighter, and has much better heat management at the same thrust and dropship capacity.

Clans circa REVIVAL:
Assuming I know, from the dragoons, that I won't be facing any serious warship threat, I'm looking for dropship collars, fighter bays, and cargo space. I want to move large volumes of stuff in an armored shell rather than trying to field something to fight other warships. For that job, you just can't beat the Potemkin. Sure they take something like six years to build one with the restrictions mentioned, but nothing else provides as many collars-per-ton, and the cargo space is competitive with just about anything else as well. For revival, I want an up-armored container ship, and the Potemkin is it!

Dark Age:
Leviathan III. It will take me a decade to build one, but once I do I've got what is, quite possibly, the most broken, OP warship the game has ever seen...in canon. I mean, what are you going to do instead? Build two Mjolnirs or Texas's? I'd gladly take a two-on-one fight with either of those. Three Aegis? Still have you beat on fighters and dropships, and I'll put my armor against three of those.  Corvette spam? For the mass of a Lev3, you could build 10 Foxes. That is 120 fighters, 20 small craft, and 50 dropship collars. Pretty impressive, but my one ship has 20 collars, 60 fighters, and 10 small craft, so it's not as big of an advantage as you would like. Plus more armor than all your warships combined and the range, firepower, and cooling capacity to start dropping your Foxes and droppers at long range. Sorry, but nothing is OP like the Leviathan III.

[Giovanni Blasini]

40 Bug-Eyes a year. They don't make DropShips that fast.

Thought occurred to me, but there is so little useful you could do with them outside surveillance without modifying them.

[Cryhavok101]

Thought occurred to me, but there is so little useful you could do with them outside surveillance without modifying them.

K-F Bombs waiting to take out everyone else's warships.

[Daryk]

Thought occurred to me, but there is so little useful you could do with them outside surveillance without modifying them.

Surveillance is priceless in all three of the OP's time frames.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Yeah, but unless you have something that can oppose everyone else's fleets, surveillance is all you're doing.

[Daryk]

None of their fleets are going to be big enough to cover every target, and that much surveillance will let you raid with impunity.

[vidar]

So you will be building one of these every 9 years, awfully tempting target, to do a lot of damage, from an enemies perspective. Without a century of peace you wouldn't have enough time to build enough to do anything. OP Stated production capacity of 250Kt per year.

Your look at them as combat units, not as the support units of a vast dropship fleet because they can be used to upkeep all those infrastructure parts that allow large fleets.

[Cryhavok101]

I was sorely tempted to pick faslanes and newgaranges for the support factor.

[David CGB]

Luxor please

[sadlerbw]

None of their fleets are going to be big enough to cover every target, and that much surveillance will let you raid with impunity.

I don't know about 'impunity'. What are you going to do when your neighbor shows up in orbit over your capital with a couple Warships and asks for all his stuff back...plus all your stuff as well.

[Cryhavok101]

I don't know about 'impunity'. What are you going to do when your neighbor shows up in orbit over your capital with a couple Warships and asks for all his stuff back...plus all your stuff as well.

Human wave them with marines and battletaxis.

[sadlerbw]

Human wave them with marines and battletaxis.

If you are the Capellan Confederation, sure. Otherwise, I sure hope you have a large supply of VERY patriotic volunteers because it might be a wee bit difficult to get folks to sign up for that mission. There are going to be some horrific casualty rates in that fight. The NL-42 doesn't have the fuel to meet them on the way in, so you have to wait till they make it to the planet, or pretty close to it. So, you kinda need waves and waves for each important system and possibly each important planet.

That is going to require some serious numbers of Battle Taxis and marines. Even if I give you the personnel for free, how many Battle Taxis do you need to swarm a battleship? 20? 50? 100? 20 seems low, so lets call it 50. That is 10k tons of battle taxis to defend one planet. If you want to defend 10 planets, we are up to 100k tons of small craft. At what point does building all those small craft affect your ability to put out 250k tons of warships a year? I know game-wise swarm tactics work, but I dislike any counter that boils down to, "They simply can't kill us fast enough." That's just personal preference though, and I admit it.

[Weirdo]

You. I like you. O0

[Cryhavok101]

I knew I should have put an emoji on that post, the sarcasm just didn't show enough lol.

[Daryk]

Sarcasm or no, you have a point.  There are threads upon threads that talk about how bad the canon WarShips are, and how easy it is take them down with PWS, small craft and fighters.  Plus, with all that surveillance, you'll see them coming and be able to prepare a proper welcoming committee.  Knowing more than your enemy is more than half the battle.

[Cryhavok101]

Sarcasm or no, you have a point.  There are threads upon threads that talk about how bad the canon WarShips are, and how easy it is take them down with PWS, small craft and fighters.  Plus, with all that surveillance, you'll see them coming and be able to prepare a proper welcoming committee.  Knowing more than your enemy is more than half the battle.

Well to argue against my own human wave idea, another important part of the battle is having a populace that will allow you to sacrifice them by the thousands to take down one enemy ship. Be careful not to let your populace decide it might be better for them if the other guy won.

[Daryk]

Well, referencing those other threads, it doesn't have to be thousands or even hundreds of casualties.  Fighter swarms with the appropriate external stores could easily keep your body count in the tens...

[Giovanni Blasini]

Seriously, though, a lot of this is predicated on what your assault DropShip/PWS, JumpShip and fighter production looks like.  If I can build a fabulous PWS and haul it around at reasonable rates, it takes some of the heat off your WarShip production, allowing you to focus on fewer, better ships. If that's similarly limited, smaller WarShips you can produce faster for better coverage is important.

This also, obviously, varies by how much territory you have to defend.

WarShips are complicated beasts. ;D

[sadlerbw]

Aww, bring it in for a bro-hug Weirdo! I feel all special now!

Havok, I figured you were only kinda serious, but it was a valid counter game-wise so it gave me an excuse to talk about it! Even if you don't play that way, its true that nothing in the game is going to stop someone from doing it.

Swarms are one thing the BT game systems just don't handle well. The system is at its best, I would say, at no more than three-to-one in terms of the number of units on each side. Any more than that, and not only does the combat balance start to go out the window, but just trying to physically play the game breaks down! I have enough trouble with the game letting TWO units occupy the same hex (If only DFA's were so darn much fun!) Imagine trying to keep track of ten Battle Taxi's sitting in the same square! It's just unmanageable. Even with the boon of MegaMek, it's still a giant pain trying to remember which of the 10 Taxis got its weapons crit or all its marines killed and needs to pull out for a ramming run (Hey, if yer gonna go Capellan-style, go all the way!) It isn't even really a warship thing, it's pretty much any scale. Piles of infantry with field guns against a lone mech, squadrons of Seydlitzes against an assault dropship, masses of Hover APC's with the worlds worst drivers trying to make sharp turns one hex in front of...well, anything really. It all sort of falls flat when you Zerg rush in BT.

I wouldn't say it is a problem, but BT wants to act like a simulation game. It has all these rules that kinda/sorta try to codify the reality of a made-up sci-fi battle with dice rolls. However, while it has the ABILITY to simulate all sort of things, there is absolutely no guarantee that any particular combination of units and rules will be balanced. It's sort of like D&D in that sense. The rules will absolutely let you create a game-breaking, I-win-button of a fight if you want. The game, once you get outside of TW, really doesn't try to be all that balanced. It's up to the players to embrace the simulation idea and not try to do silly stuff that the game allows, but doesn't make much sense in real-world-land. That said, if you WERE the Capellans and showed up at the table with a 5-gallon bucket full of small craft...I might let the swarm tactic slide...they would just need to be Monarch's or some other civilian unit, and they wouldn't be trying to dock, per se! As long as the craft had room for the pilot and the Mask flunkie holding the gun to their head, I'd consider it.

EDIT: Oh, and to get back slightly on topic, this thread really drove home how few warships there are at or under a quarter-million tons. Most of the canon designs died out in the succession wars. After that its pretty much the Fox, Fredasa, Inazuma, and I guess the Zec if you are feeling generous. Makes it kinda tough to take quantity over quality when those are the choices!

[Arkansas Warrior]

Some thoughts so far:

Part of me wants to say Tracker or Bonaventure due to my natural levels of snark. That said, Tracker has the added bonus of docking collars it can use for fighter carriers, Pocket WarShips or civvie transports if pretending to be a Merchant.  At two a year, you could crank them out like mad.Despite its low cargo fraction, the Nightwing is high on the list, thanks to its firepower being so high for such a small package.Foxes seem perfect for this challenge, or maybe vice versa. Too obvious, and already mentioned.Barons have big naval laser arrays that help with ranged fire, and potentially murdering fighters. Armor is thin, and you only get one every two years.In the end, at 720 kilotons, and one per three years, I'd probably go with the Black Lion I. Maybe not the best choice, but I designed if, so I have a big soft spot for it. :)

Yeah, the Fox is almost too perfect for this.  I hadn't notice that until you brought it up.

Newgrange- if I am limited to one class I would focus on a job impossible to do with smaller vessels.  And the ability to fix all that space based infrastructure would be invaluable.

So you're going to take these once-a-decade yardships and build....more yardships?  You only have plans for one kind of WarShip.  I guess you could use them as mobile DropShip factories, but...eh.

Tough one.Succession Wars: I would like something like the Liberator or the Tharkad. They really are do-it-all type ships with ample fighter bays and dropship collars, plus tough armor and enough firepower to hurt just about anything else out there. They both even have NPPC or NL bays that can do a reasonable job at bracket fire. The Tharkad wins on heat management, but the Liberator has that nice armor on the nose and aft. In fact, the only problem with them is their mass. The restriction of a quarter-million tons of ship per year really hurts. That just isn't much tonnage, so we are looking at one of these ships every four years. If it was one every two years, I might still go for them, but only producing three ships in a decade is going to leave me spread pretty thin. This is, honestly, a problem in all of your timeframes.Being capped at 250k tons per year, I might actually look at the Davion Block II. At 520K tons, I'm pretty sure I could give my workers some overtime pay and squeeze one out every two years. It doesn't quite have the armor of a York, or it's larger fighter compliment, but it is 80K tons lighter, and has much better heat management at the same thrust and dropship capacity.Clans circa REVIVAL:Assuming I know, from the dragoons, that I won't be facing any serious warship threat, I'm looking for dropship collars, fighter bays, and cargo space. I want to move large volumes of stuff in an armored shell rather than trying to field something to fight other warships. For that job, you just can't beat the Potemkin. Sure they take something like six years to build one with the restrictions mentioned, but nothing else provides as many collars-per-ton, and the cargo space is competitive with just about anything else as well. For revival, I want an up-armored container ship, and the Potemkin is it!Dark Age:Leviathan III. It will take me a decade to build one, but once I do I've got what is, quite possibly, the most broken, OP warship the game has ever seen...in canon. I mean, what are you going to do instead? Build two Mjolnirs or Texas's? I'd gladly take a two-on-one fight with either of those. Three Aegis? Still have you beat on fighters and dropships, and I'll put my armor against three of those.  Corvette spam? For the mass of a Lev3, you could build 10 Foxes. That is 120 fighters, 20 small craft, and 50 dropship collars. Pretty impressive, but my one ship has 20 collars, 60 fighters, and 10 small craft, so it's not as big of an advantage as you would like. Plus more armor than all your warships combined and the range, firepower, and cooling capacity to start dropping your Foxes and droppers at long range. Sorry, but nothing is OP like the Leviathan III.

Yeah, that's kind of the point.  I had to limit production somehow or everyone would just be cranking out McKennas and Leviathans.  I wanted to see what people would say when they couldn't have their cake and eat it too.




I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Robinson or Samarkand yet.  Both are fairly small ships, so you can build better than 1 every other year (1.6 years/ship for the Robinson, 1.4 for the Samarkand), they're pretty well rounded, carry plenty of fighters, Small Craft, and DropShips.  One of the two would probably be my Succession Wars answer.  As above, the Fox is almost too perfect here, it'd be a likely pick in the Dark Age.  Not sure what I'd pick as a Clanner.  The best argument I've seen is probably for the Potemkin, but as big as it is, you aren't going to build many.  Then again, how many do you need?

[RunandFindOut]

You want something small so that you can build at least one every other year.  Preferably one every year, with at least one docking collar for transportation.  Optimally you'd use these small Warships to engage dropships not other warships.  Warships would be engaged by fighters or small craft with nuclear anti-shipping missiles en-masse.

[truetanker]

For me​, I'd go with the Carrack for all three eras.

TT

[Hellraiser]

...what would it be?  Let's say your faction has just a shipyard capable of producing one type of WarShip.  You can choose any WarShip available in the era, but let's say you can only build 250 kilotons of ship per year, so if you're building McKennas, you're going to be heavily outnumbered by a neighbor who's building Foxes.

To complicate things a little more, let's break it up into three eras:
Succession Wars-Somehow, against all odds, you've miraculously preserved one shipyard.
Clans-You're building up your Touman right around the time of REVIVAL.
Blackout-The HPGs have just gone dark and you have decided your faction needs WarShips to see you through these uncertain times.


What do you build your fleet out of, and why?

So 3 eras & only 1 WS from that era or prior to still be making......

For this its about what does a WS provide that massed JS/DS/ASF don't?
Which prior to the Overlord-A3, really comes down to ... Orbital Bombardment.

So I'm thinking something smaller to spread them out everywhere w/ lots of Docking Collars to carry protection troops.

SW:  Robinson-II   every 19.5 Months
Clan:  York   every 29.2 Months    (Or Liberator every 40.4 Months)
DarkAges:  Fox   every 11.7 Months

At the end of a decade you have 10 Foxes, or 5 Robinson-II's, or 4 Yorks,  or 3 Liberators.


Basically they are just command ships for task forces of Assault/PWS/Carrier DS & loads of Fighters/Marines

[sadlerbw]

Hmm, I actually forgot about the Robinson II and the Samarkand II. Given the tonnage restrictions, both are solid choices. Those are both solid choices for the Succession Wars era. However, I'm still not sure I would take them over the Tharkad. You can almost build three Samarkands for one Tharkad, or a bit more than two Robinsons. You will end up with a fighter and dropship advantage, but I will end up with a capital-scale firepower advantage.

The biggest advantage the smaller ships give you is the ability to be in more places at once. I think they would work well as raiders, or as a way to have response units within a single jump of more systems. However, in any serious assault from a neighbor who also has warships, you will really need to concentrate several of them in one place to have a good shot at winning a fleet engagement. With the Tharkad, I'm limited on the number of places I can protect at once, but I have an excellent unit for assaults or fleet battles. I think you could make either plan work.

[Weirdo]

...Swarms are one thing the BT game systems just don't handle well...

Very true. There's a reason why, despite all my talk on the subject, I've never actually fielded a true Toyotapocalypse in a game, and likely never will.

[Cryhavok101]

Very true. There's a reason why, despite all my talk on the subject, I've never actually fielded a true Toyotapocalypse in a game, and likely never will.

I did once back in the AT2/BMR era. Game took about 6 months to complete. Don't think I will ever try it again.

[truetanker]

I remember back when BV1 was common, I ran a 5k reinforced company...

How?

17 Wasp-1Ls....

TT

[vidar]

The point I was trying to make is that it's a better idea in the long run to build up your ability to produce than build a few unbalanced units.  Once one has the support units and facilities one can then take on the task of building a balanced fleet, something Battletech has never had.

[Wrangler]

Commonwealth (or Dart, the original).  6 Drop Collars, reasonable speed, reasonable firepower, plenty cargo.

Secondary choice would be a Robinson.  She older, but she all-in-one ship.

[truetanker]

I'll still use a Carrack...

Standard, Clan and there is a Fighter Carrier version as well!

@300k a pop, I can run with loads of cargo in all versions​.

TT

[Railan Sradac]

I've never actually played a WarShip battle, but it seems to me like the Conq would be hard to beat in this case where tonnage matters so much, as long as you can compensate for its short range with a good DropShip selection.

[glitterboy2098]

with the tonnage limit given, i think i'd go for the Pinto.. it has good firepower for it's size, good speed, and passable armor. it also has one dropship collar and can carry a squadron of fighters. making it useful for offense and defense.

and at 160,000 tons, you could push one out about every 7.5 months. would give you a fairly good fleet.

Edit: one decade gets you 16 ships.. and given their mix of NL35's, LNPPC's, NAC10's, and Barracuda's, they can do a number on most invasion fleets that aren't escorted by warships. and with 10.6K cargo per ship, their endurance wouldn't be too bad either.

[DarthRads]

I am currently putting a spread sheet together comparing firepower, Armour, SI, Cargo, Thrust, Fighters and DropShips to the tonnage of the vessel to give a "Design Efficiency rating".

So far it looks like the Samarkand II is the way to go with an efficiency rating of 8.00 (The Fox is a 7.83 but as has been said, looks like it was designed for a challenge like this). in a decade you can build 7 hulls which can carry 28 dropships and over 500 fighters. (The Robinson is also a good choice with a rating of 8.33, six hulls in a decade carrying 24 dropships and 144 fighters).

By comparison, the mighty McKenna currently sits at an efficiency rating of 23.17 (this will probably change as I finish the list...there are way more ship classes than I realised!) with only one hull completed in a decade.

[Giovanni Blasini]

How does the Tracker do? One decade nets you 20 complete ships, with 40 docking collars and 80 small craft bays.

[DarthRads]

How does the Tracker do? One decade nets you 20 complete ships, with 40 docking collars and 80 small craft bays.

with 27 ships done, it currently has a rating of 9.8

[truetanker]

Have you done the Carrack yet?

I get 12 a decade, with some 761,352,000 tons of cargo moved.

TT

[DarthRads]

Have you done the Carrack yet?

I get 12 a decade, with some 761,352,000 tons of cargo moved.

TT

Not yet, I will post the full list when done, but it is taking a long time to input all the data. Have ID'd something like 70+ classes of combat vessels so far.

[DarthRads]

Not yet, I will post the full list when done, but it is taking a long time to input all the data. Have ID'd something like 70+ classes of combat vessels so far.

68 down...just the New Syrtis, military Carrack, Dreadnought, Defender, Essex I and Riga II to go...and of course the Lev I/II/III

[Hellraiser]

I get 12 a decade, with some 761,352,000 tons of cargo moved.

How you getting 12 TT ?  I'm showing only 8

[truetanker]

How you getting 12 TT ?  I'm showing only 8

My bad... numbers off, it is 8 at 9.6 years... still not bad. I have a Merchant Carrack for cargo, a Military Carrack for raids and even a Fighter Carrack for defense. Plus in another eight months, I could have a ninth one to add to my fleet. Was counting twelve years time having ten.

TT  O:-)

[DarthRads]

Okay...this is done similar to power to weight ratios with cars...
Ton-for-ton, the best vessels in the game are as follows:
ARMOUR - Avalon
SI - Nightwing
FIREPOWER - Aegis
THRUST - Tracker
CARGO - Carrack (Merchant)
DROPSHIPS - Fox
FIGHTRERS - Thera
SMALL CRAFT - Nightwing

Ton for ton, the most efficient design comes out as the ROBINSON II which beats out the SAMARKAND II by 1.25 points and the third-place FOX by 2.25.
Interestingly, the Mighty McKenna comes out as one of the most inefficient designs for its mass.

Comparing 1 McKenna (you could only have one complete ship in a decade) -
ARMOUR - 1343
SI - 95
FIREPOWER - 1338
CARGO - 255kT
DROPSHIPS - 6
FIGHTER - 48
SMALL CRAFT 16

In the same time you could commission SIX Robinson IIs and have the equivelant of -
ARMOUR - 3354
SI - 474
FIREPOWER - 1482
CARGO - 342kT
DROPSHIPS - 24
FIGHTER - 144
SMALL CRAFT - 72

Yes your one Battleship could smash a Robinson, but while that is happening the other 5 are raiding your supply lines...

[mikhailmikaru]

Claymore class for me.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Isn't the Claymore a DropShip?

Also, DarthRads, do you have the full spreadsheet?

[DarthRads]

Isn't the Claymore a DropShip?

Also, DarthRads, do you have the full spreadsheet?

The file size prevents upload. I will copy the tables into word and post.

[Hellraiser]

SW:  Robinson-II   every 19.5 Months
Clan:  York   every 29.2 Months    (Or Liberator every 40.4 Months)
DarkAges:  Fox   every 11.7 Months

Ton for ton, the most efficient design comes out as the ROBINSON II which beats out the SAMARKAND II by 1.25 points and the third-place FOX by 2.25. 

YES /fist pump, the math supports my choices.  :D

[DarthRads]

YES /fist pump, the math supports my choices.  :D

Yeah, in this scenario, with limited production, smaller and more efficient designs seem to be the way to go. If, however, you are the SLDF, spam Battleships!

I'm actually thinking of re-visiting my old VEILED ALLIANCE campaign fleets based on this info...

[mikhailmikaru]

Isn't the Claymore a DropShip?

True i missed the War in front of ships lol.  The Conqueror for during Blackout for me. It's big has decent guns  2 hardpoints, 100 fighters what not to love :D

[Hellraiser]

If, however, you are the SLDF, spam Battleships!

I'm actually wondering about your McKenna comparison if all 6 Robinsons were present.

I feel like its a Direwolf v/s Level-1 Light/Medium mechs scenario, where its going to smash 1 every turn, but maybe they get lucky & take it out.

[DarthRads]

I'm actually wondering about your McKenna comparison if all 6 Robinsons were present.

I feel like its a Direwolf v/s Level-1 Light/Medium mechs scenario, where its going to smash 1 every turn, but maybe they get lucky & take it out.

Anything is possible, my point was that the SLDF spammed more Mckennas than the entire combined fleets of the Great Houses C2750!

[DarthRads]

And for those playing at home...

LEVIATHAN III

MASS - 2 400 000
ARMOUR - 6000 (Rating 400t/point)
SI - 150 (Rating 16 000t/Point)
FIREPOWER - 1809 (Rating 1329.7t/Point)
THRUST - 3 (Rating 800000t/Point)
CARGO - 51 459 (Rating 46.64/1)
DROPSHIPS - 20 (Rating 120 000t/Hard Point)
FIGHTERS - 60 (Rating  40 000t/Fighter)
SMALL CRAFT - 10  (Rating 240 000t/Small Craft)

Where does this stack up?

ARMOUR - 1st
SI - Equal to a Dreadnought/Baron (About 63rd on the list)
FIREPOWER - About 45th on the list, Superior to a New Syrtis or Riga II but inferior to a Sov Soy on the ton-for-ton basis!
THRUST - Last, but no surprises there.
CARGO - 65th
DROPSHIPS - 55th
FIGHTERS - 20th
SMALL CRAFT - 45th

That's an average score of 47.25...

So despite being "Ship of Infinite Death", if you are restricted in your production (as this scenario is), the Lev III is not a wise choice.

[Cryhavok101]

Turns out the Niops Association chose the Leviathan III.  ;D

[Giovanni Blasini]

Turns out the Niops Association chose the Leviathan III.  ;D

Actually, in the FGC, we did Trackers. ;D

[Looter]

Where does the Feng Huang Upgrade rate? Just curious

[sillybrit]

In the same time you could commission SIX Robinson IIs and have the equivelant of -

...

Yes your one Battleship could smash a Robinson, but while that is happening the other 5 are raiding your supply lines...

Disputing an aspect of your math: given the 250kt/year production capacity, it takes ~8 years to build a McKenna, during which time you're only going to build five Robinsons, not six. There's no reason to artificially inflate the timescale to a decade other than to give the Robinsons an extra sister ship, which is highly questionable. The Robinsons still possess a greater total of most of the figures you chose to quote, but the McKenna has superior raw damage compared to five Robinson IIs. Something else to bear in mind: the raw numbers only tell part of the story, as the McKenna has much better bay sizes, for example, giving superior bracketing capability and thus superior accuracy. More importantly, only the ASF and DropShip capacities matter, and the latter only for the possibility of carriers, the rest is just noise.

As for what the other four Robinsons are doing while you're feeding one to the McKenna - although I'd have to ask why you're doing that; just avoid it like the plague unless you're going to force a fleet action to kill it - the outcome depends upon whether they're operating independently or teamed up. If they're all operating together, then you effectively end up with equality: both sides have a single powerful WarShip-based force. If they're operating individually, a Robinson II is a more viable target for a realistic ASF attack by whomever you raid.

By realistic, I mean a few dozen ASFs, perhaps with DropShip support, enough to counter the Robinson's carried craft and get a solid strike through to the WarShip itself. A cruiser like the Aegis takes about 60 ASF to kill as I recall from Jellico's testing. The Robinson II has roughly comparable carried craft, armor and SI, but massively weaker armament - forget about its standard weapons; apart from that stern LRM bay, they're pitiful, and even that bay can only shoot one ASF/Capital fighter squadron per turn - so it's less capable of fighting off a determined ASF attack than an Aegis.

Also, raiding supply lines is much, much harder than you might think and a waste of a WarShip's time and capabilities.

Personally, I'd keep my Robinsons together until the McKenna was dead and even then I'd never operate them alone.


As for the original question: given the superiority of ASFs in aerospace combat, if I was forced  to field a WarShip for this scenario I'd opt for whatever carrier is available - so Leviathan II, Thera, Feng Huang (Upgrade), New Syrtis, Conqueror, York, Samarkand II - whichever gives me lots of 'free' ASFs due to their built-in bays. I'd avoid the Fox/Potemkin types, because exploiting their DropShip capacity to transport DropShip CVs is just one exploit too far for me.

[Cryhavok101]

Feng Huang (Upgrade)

Slightly off topic, but I wasn't aware there was an upgrade to that ship, would you point me towards the book it is in please?

[Maelwys]

Jihad Turning Point: Sian.

It basically drops 77k of cargo to add 123 fighters, and almost double its capital weapon bays. I think off hand only the Nose and Aft Naval Lasers remain the same, all other NLs and NPPCs are doubled. Its Lifeboats/escape pods are increased to 110 (Each), its Battle Armor triples, its passenger count drops by a couple of hundred, and of course, with all those fighters, its bay personnel increase.

Its conventional weaponry remains the same, as does its heat dissipation.

[DarthRads]

Only went with decade as that was in the earlier conversation.

[Maelwys]

Also as a small aside, I swear that I read somewhere that the Feng Huang (Upgrade) wasn't what was intended, but an amalgamation of plans. Basically there were going to be two different upgrades, a Carrier upgrade and a Gunboat upgrade (for lack of a better term). Due to events, instead of getting the two upgrades, we get a variant that takes a little bit of both.

Of course, I can't remember where I read this, but it seem familiar.

[sillybrit]

Also as a small aside, I swear that I read somewhere that the Feng Huang (Upgrade) wasn't what was intended, but an amalgamation of plans. Basically there were going to be two different upgrades, a Carrier upgrade and a Gunboat upgrade (for lack of a better term). Due to events, instead of getting the two upgrades, we get a variant that takes a little bit of both.

Of course, I can't remember where I read this, but it seem familiar.

I recall the same. I think that it might have been in a post by one of TPTB, one or two board iterations ago, in response to a post/thread that bemoaned the relatively weak armament of the unmodified Feng Huang design. As I recall, the original Feng Huang was deliberately undergunned, because it was always intended to be the "base chassis", with the planned options of adding either two carrier or two gun "modules". The Feng Huang class wasn't quite meant to be an OmniWarShip, but more a standardized common set of plans for new or modified construction. With WarShip construction curtailed, both in-universe and in the game, as a compromise to get something in print, we got the Feng Huang Upgrade as it appears in JTP:Sian, mounting one of each module type.

[DarthRads]

Okay...here are some tables.

Remember this is purely a ton-for-ton what do you get. It does not include LF batteries and the like, nor does it try to say the ability to carry DropShips is better than Fighter capacity. IT is purely what does the design give you per ton in each basic area.

For those that don't want to wade through all the other tables, here is the final one of most efficient to least...

1.   Samarkand II
2.   Samrakand I 
3.   Inzumi
4.   Fox
5.   Robinson II
6.   Robinson I
7.   Tracker
8.   Nightwing
9.   Kyushu
10.   Tatsumaki
11.   Pinto
12.   Fredasa
13.   Avalon
14.   Davion II
15.   York
16.   Riga II
17.   Tharkad
18.   Black Lion II
19.   Zech I
20.   Zech II
21.   Agamemnon
22.   Vigilant
23.   Feng Huang
24.   Aegis
25.   Winchester
26.   Thera
27.   Bonaventure
28.   Wagon Wheel
29.   Quixote
30.   New Syrtis
31.   SovSOy
32.   Stefan Amaris
33.   Luxor
34.   Sylvester
35.   Riga
36.   Kirishima
37.   Texas
38.   Mako
39.   Carrack - military
40.   Congress
41.   Carrack
42.   Monsoon
43.   Mckenna
44.   Concordat
45.   Leviathan III
46.   Cameron 
47.   Impervado
48.   Baron
49.   Carson
50.   Suffren
51.   League II
52.   Farragut
53.   Naga
54.   Eagle
55.   Dante
56.   Essex II
57.   Narakumi I
58.   Narakumi II
59.   Commonwealth II
60.   Lola III
61.   Vincent
62.   League
63.   Dart
64.   Agamemnon
65.   Liberator
66.   Avatar
67.   Kimiguri
68.   Volga
69.   Conqueror
70.   Athena
71.   Defender
72.   Davion I
73.   Essex I
74.   Du Shi Wang
75.   Mjolnir
76.   Nightlord
77.   Atreus
78.   Cruiser
79.   Whirlwind
80.   Potempkin
81.   Soyal
82.   Dreadnought
83.   M5 Drone
84.   Black Lion I

[Giovanni Blasini]

Found a bug:  the Black Lion I is on your list as having zero small craft, when it actually carries 24.

[DarthRads]

Found a bug:  the Black Lion I is on your list as having zero small craft, when it actually carries 24.

Dangnamit...still...one bug out of nearly 700 data-points isn't to bad...

[DarthRads]

Found a bug:  the Black Lion I is on your list as having zero small craft, when it actually carries 24.

That bumps it up to 39 on the list! (ships incurred penalties if they didn't carry any craft)

[Giovanni Blasini]

Dangnamit...still...one bug out of nearly 700 data-points isn't to bad...

Yep. It's possible there are others, but I've been too busy matching up automotive paint codes to the official BBC pantone color code for Tardis Blue (Chrysler and GM Blue is nearly identical) for my VW Fastback I'm restoring.

[Giovanni Blasini]

That bumps it up to 39 on the list!

Sweet!

[DarthRads]

Where does the Feng Huang Upgrade rate? Just curious

I don't have the appropriate Turning Points/Hot Spots but based on the details on saran I gave it a 20% increase in gun power and the extra fighters, reduced the cargo by about 30000t to compensate and she jumps thee rungs higher on the list.

[Looter]

Interesting.  It is one of the better rated big ships then.  I found this thread to seemingly be exactly what house liao did when it made the Feng Huang and Upgrade model.  Everyone else made more types in house so I have wondered how that would have worked if there was a level playing field so to speak between the major factions.

[Looter]

I don't have the appropriate Turning Points/Hot Spots but based on the details on saran I gave it a 20% increase in gun power and the extra fighters, reduced the cargo by about 30000t to compensate and she jumps thee rungs higher on the list.

The cargo capacity does go down to just under 40000 but the firepower itself is nearly double as the weapons are exactly doubled exempting only the paired Nose and Aft NL/35's which allows it to fire everything on a side without issue from heat. But it is still an endurance race for the ship as it retains the all energy armament.

[Maelwys]

I recall the same. I think that it might have been in a post by one of TPTB, one or two board iterations ago, in response to a post/thread that bemoaned the relatively weak armament of the unmodified Feng Huang design. As I recall, the original Feng Huang was deliberately undergunned, because it was always intended to be the "base chassis", with the planned options of adding either two carrier or two gun "modules". The Feng Huang class wasn't quite meant to be an OmniWarShip, but more a standardized common set of plans for new or modified construction. With WarShip construction curtailed, both in-universe and in the game, as a compromise to get something in print, we got the Feng Huang Upgrade as it appears in JTP:Sian, mounting one of each module type.

Well, glad I wasn't totally imagining it. Didn't figure that I was, just couldn't remember if it was something on the forums or if I was missing some fluff somewhere, like in one of the Jihad books.

[Hellraiser]

Okay...here are some tables.

Remember this is purely a ton-for-ton what do you get. It does not include LF batteries and the like, nor does it try to say the ability to carry DropShips is better than Fighter capacity. IT is purely what does the design give you per ton in each basic area.

For those that don't want to wade through all the other tables, here is the final one of most efficient to least...

1.   Samarkand II
2.   Samrakand I 
3.   Inzumi
4.   Fox
5.   Robinson II
6.   Robinson I
7.   Tracker
8.   Nightwing
9.   Kyushu
10.   Tatsumaki
11.   Pinto
12.   Fredasa
13.   Avalon
14.   Davion II
15.   York
16.   Riga II
17.   Tharkad
18.   Black Lion II
19.   Zech I
20.   Zech II
21.   Agamemnon
22.   Vigilant
23.   Feng Huang
24.   Aegis
25.   Winchester
26.   Thera
27.   Bonaventure
28.   Wagon Wheel
29.   Quixote
30.   New Syrtis
31.   SovSOy
32.   Stefan Amaris
33.   Luxor
34.   Sylvester
35.   Riga
36.   Kirishima
37.   Texas
38.   Mako
39.   Carrack - military
40.   Congress
41.   Carrack
42.   Monsoon
43.   Mckenna
44.   Concordat
45.   Leviathan III
46.   Cameron 
47.   Impervado
48.   Baron
49.   Carson
50.   Suffren
51.   League II
52.   Farragut
53.   Naga
54.   Eagle
55.   Dante
56.   Essex II
57.   Narakumi I
58.   Narakumi II
59.   Commonwealth II
60.   Lola III
61.   Vincent
62.   League
63.   Dart
64.   Agamemnon
65.   Liberator
66.   Avatar
67.   Kimiguri
68.   Volga
69.   Conqueror
70.   Athena
71.   Defender
72.   Davion I
73.   Essex I
74.   Du Shi Wang
75.   Mjolnir
76.   Nightlord
77.   Atreus
78.   Cruiser
79.   Whirlwind
80.   Potempkin
81.   Soyal
82.   Dreadnought
83.   M5 Drone
84.   Black Lion I

Ton for ton, the most efficient design comes out as the ROBINSON II which beats out the SAMARKAND II by 1.25 points and the third-place FOX by 2.25.
Interestingly, the Mighty McKenna comes out as one of the most inefficient designs for its mass. 

What did you change about calculations that shifted things around from your original ranking?

[DarthRads]

What did you change about calculations that shifted things around from your original ranking?

Figuring out a #Div0 error