Author Topic: Ultra-Light Mortar (Infantry)/Satchel Grenade (Infantry)  (Read 2062 times)

Cipher

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Code: [Select]
    Item: Mortar, Ultra-Light
    Equipment Rating: B/A-B-B/D
    Armor Piercing/Base Damage: (C)
    Range: 20/60/180/360 meters
    Shots: 1
    Cost/Reload: 1000/*
    Affiliation: -
    Mass/Reload: 6kg/800g*
    Notes:  Indirect Fire, Direct Fire; Minimum Range: 20

The Ultra-Light Mortar is a niche but somewhat common infantry indirect and direct fire weapon pre-dating space-flight. The term 'mortar' is something of a misnomer, as the weapon fires a single projectile closer to a grenade. As such, sometimes these weapons are referred to as Grenade Dischargers or Indirect Grenade Launchers. They are also capable of direct fire, and function like a larger Grenade Launcher when utilized in that manner. These weapons have a minimum range as the larger projectile is dangerous to the shooter if launched too closely.

Most Ultra-Light Mortars use a specialized closed combustion chamber that captures most the gasses from the firing of the weapon. This results in a quiet, stealthy launcher that is difficult to detect and makes the Ultra-Light Mortar capable of sustained fire with minimal heating, resulting in an overall lighter weight. Typical calibers range from 50mm up to 60mm, limiting damage potential and range. This weapon is intended to be carried and operated by a single soldier.

The Ultra-Light Mortar is capable of firing a variety of munitions such as, but not limited to: anti-personnel, flare, flash, gas, high-explosive, inferno, smoke and stun rounds.


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I don't know if something like this exists yet in the game, but it's meant to basically be the equivalent of the WWII Japanese Type 89 Grenade Discharger aka 'Knee Mortar' and the Lance-Grenade Individuel Mle F1, both capable of being operated by a single soldier. The F1 is a French modern day light support weapon firing a grenade, designed to be used like a light mortar, and has a maximum range of 675 metres. Both weapons are noted for being quiet, and the F1 produces less than 60 decibels of noise.

Which would be a bit overpowered, so the range is reduced so it doesn't make Light Mortars or Light Recoilless Rifles obsolete. Longer range than a grenade launcher, but has a minimum range and more powerful grenade. All stats are pretty much just a draft, not sure if a weapon can have both direct fire and indirect fire, with a minimum range.




EDIT:

Code: [Select]
   
    Item: C8, Satchel Grenade
    Equipment Rating: D/B-D-C/E
    Armor Piercing/Base Damage: 8x12A-8x13A-8x14A
    Range: STR x 1/1.5/2/2.5 meters
    Shots: 1
    Cost: 500
    Affiliation: -
    Mass/Reload: 4.5-5.5-6.5kg
    Notes: -2AP/-2BD per meter; Range applies when Thrown as Grenade

The Satchel Grenade is typically a thin metal box containing between four to six of C8 blocks and a simple timer. The amount of explosives can be modified before battle by simply removing the desired amount of explosive filler and the fuse can be swapped for a longer one, up to fifteen seconds. The box is fitted with a long stick like handle forming a lever, which aids in throwing the weapon. A pull cord in the handle primes the fuse, typically five seconds. The larger charge sizes can be dangerous to the user, so caution is warranted. Uses include anti-tank, demolitions and attacks against battlemechs. Ominously, the full charges of these types of weapons are known as 'Satchel of Conspicious Stupidity' in the Capellan Confederation, 'Grave-Digger' in the Federated Suns, 'Box of Heroes' in the Free Worlds League and in the Lyran Commonwealth as 'Mckennsy Express'.

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Based on the WWII Finnish Anti-Tank Satchel Charge aka Kasapanos, which was a sheet metal box with configurable amount of explosive filler. The largest size was 6kg, and the stick handle from a German potato masher helped throwing it and served as the fuse which was yes, five seconds.

Again, just eyeballing the statline for it. Haven't got the faintest how balanced it is, but felt like adding this for fun.


EDIT 2: *Changed from 1kg to make bit better ammo wise than the Light Recoilless Rifle at lower weights. LRR still has better range and is more efficient past eighteen+ kilos for combined launcher and ammo allocation.
« Last Edit: 23 May 2017, 16:10:11 by Cipher »

Daryk

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Re: Ultra-Light Mortar (Infantry)/Satchel Grenade (Infantry)
« Reply #1 on: 21 May 2017, 10:36:24 »
I talked through some game balance logic in my thread on grenade launchers if you think that would help...

Cipher

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Re: Ultra-Light Mortar (Infantry)/Satchel Grenade (Infantry)
« Reply #2 on: 21 May 2017, 12:50:19 »
Thanks.

Using that chart and eyeballing the infantry LRR and other existing weapons I think that the UL-Mortar makes sense as something between a beefed up Grenade Launcher and a light mortar like the British L9A1 51mm, firing regular hand grenade loads at ranges lower than a 'real' mortar. So C grade, though obviously the larger types would in actuality cross into D grade. Still, more types of grenade launchers and mortars would make sense. Automatic, Semi-Automatic and human operated single shot are all different and would be nice if they had official optional rules to reflect that.

Of course, that still leaves the problem of where the twenty kilogram 60mm mortars chucking one plus kilogram shells have gone to ? The mortars at least need to probably be reworked entirely. Their ammo weight and range is far too low for the actual calibre and gun weight.

Something simplistic like this:

Light Mortar (60mm)
20kg/2kg

Medium Mortar (81mm)
50kg/5kg

Heavy Mortar (100-120mm)
150kg/15kg

Super Heavy Mortar (150mm)
200kg/25kg (WW2 Japanese managed this level)
Would already be better than what we have. Weights would actually match WWII mortars in capability.
 
Basing on what I know of real arty:
Automatic Light Mortar (60mm)
125kg/2kg 5 shell burst/10 seconds. (If anything, ROF is bit low)

Automatic Medium Mortar (80mm)
500kg/5kg 4 shell burst/10 seconds. ( 2B9 Russian automatic 82mm mortar weighs 600kg and chucks 3kg+ shells from a four round clip)

Automatic Heavy Mortar (100-120mm)
1500kg/15kg 3 shell burst/10 seconds. (AMOS automatic dual turret weighs five tonnes and pumps out with two guns four shells in eight seconds)

Automatic Super Heavy Mortar (150mm)
3000kg-4500kg/25kg shell 2 shell burst/10 seconds. (Pure speculation)

Of course, I've managed to somehow misplace my Total Warfare manual between postings, I'll have to see if I can find it tomorrow. Can't be too far.

EDIT: Nevermind, found it. I'll have to start trying to run the math tomorrow when I'm not half asleep.
« Last Edit: 21 May 2017, 12:58:53 by Cipher »

Daryk

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Re: Ultra-Light Mortar (Infantry)/Satchel Grenade (Infantry)
« Reply #3 on: 21 May 2017, 17:41:20 »
Mortars as written are definitely not quite right.  I think a thorough fix will involve an overhaul of the ordnance rules from AToW and their conversion to TW scale in the Companion (page 170).  The whole "average the damage of every type of ammunition available" bit seems to be a gross oversimplification to avoid tracking ammunition.   I at least would much rather track ammo and use the appropriate types against the targets they're designed for.

Cipher

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Re: Ultra-Light Mortar (Infantry)/Satchel Grenade (Infantry)
« Reply #4 on: 21 May 2017, 23:46:33 »
Mortars as written are definitely not quite right.  I think a thorough fix will involve an overhaul of the ordnance rules from AToW and their conversion to TW scale in the Companion (page 170).  The whole "average the damage of every type of ammunition available" bit seems to be a gross oversimplification to avoid tracking ammunition.   I at least would much rather track ammo and use the appropriate types against the targets they're designed for.

True, the simplification doesn't make that much sense as the only option. If you're using mortars, you probably won't mind having to note down that you have thirty HE, twenty AV and ten smoke rounds, for example, and then calcing the shell damage before hand. It would at least help mortars have some use.

The Ordnance Scale could do with some granularity too, as the current chart can't cope with larger support weapons that would logically exist. Laziest (my preferred :P) way is to just shuffle things a bit and stuff some added categories. Mortar ranges just to give an idea of the ranges I've had in mind, main role would be cheap in-direct fire support, much like in real life.

A-Same as now.
B-Same as now.
C-Same as now. 
D-Same as now.

Light Mortar 2-3kg ammo. Crew 2. (Usually 3 crew, but two is doable) Price 1200/* Minimum range 30 metres. 30/440/810/1680 Extreme range at about 1700 metres (literally WWII to Vietnam mortar ranges)

E-Same as Now.

Medium Mortar, 4-5kg ammo. Crew 3. (Real mortars of this size usually have five) Price 1600/* Minimum range 40 metres. IDF 40/570/1140/2400 metres.  (Again, WWII era)

F-New Heavy Support weapon ordnance class, ammo mass 13-15kg 

Heavy Mortar. Crew 5. (Roughly accurate to real life) 7x12A HE. 9x14A AV. 5x16A AP Price 5000/40AP/50HE/550AV (Eyeballing damages) Minimum range 120 metres. IDF. 100/1260/2550/5100 metres (Finnish WWII 120mm Mortar)

Super Heavy Recoilless Rifle. 180kg, fires 13-15kg round. (Hybrid of M40 and L6 Wombat)  Crew 4. DF Range 80/270/570/1140 metres. Back Blast 20m.

G-Heaviest New Ordnance Class, ammo mass 23-25kg.

Super Heavy Mortar. Crew 6. (Soltam 160mm has six plus crew) 7x13A HE. 9x15A AV. 5x17A AP. Price 6000/Similar to the chart progression. Minimum range 160/1140/2460/4920 metres (based on the Soviet WWII 160mm mortars)

F class could get +1.5 splash bonus, and G-class a +2 splash bonus for when determining TW scale damage. Depends on how balanced they are, if given sensible ranges.

A 15 kg 120mm mortar shell can have four+ kilos of filler. Which is around the mass of a medium mortar AV shell, which itself does if I calculated this correctly, 0.67 TW scale damage if we don't lump ammunition types. Which is already an improvement.

The AV round would get even with the splash only gets 1.15 Total War scale damage, which kind of fits when the 120mm Whirlwind fires three 16+-kg shells is an AC-5.  Without the splash bonus, the super heavy mortar does 0.88 TW damage (if I didn't mess it up).



« Last Edit: 22 May 2017, 07:18:53 by Cipher »