Author Topic: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!  (Read 163116 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #930 on: 17 February 2018, 02:34:49 »
Gundam is not an exception to that rule.  There are some models that have shoulder or hip-mounted guns, but even they tend to also carry assault rifles and bazookas.

Speaking of which, that reminds me.

As a kid, I had a Gundam action figure I got from a toy store that specialized in imports in the early 90s.  I was wondering if anyone could tell me which one it is:  I don't have it any more, but it was white with blue and red trim.  There was a star-like projection on its forehead.  It had a translucent green shield that pegged into its left forearm and two cannons that clipped to its back and came out at the waist.  It also came with a rifle, a translucent green sword, and two translucent green beam-swords (they were less elaborate than the other sword).  Anyone recognize it based on the description?
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kato

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #931 on: 17 February 2018, 03:01:15 »
how come in most anime, combat mecha pretty much universally rely on external weaponry as if they're oversized infantry and rarely if ever have weapon systems that are hard-mounted to the mecha's body the way Battletech does things?
Hard-mounted weaponry was a typical defining feature of the "Super Robot" phase of animation in the 70s; if there was external weaponry they were physical contact weapons (swords, lances etc).

The mecha that arrived in the 80s with Gundam and Macross were physically slimmed down - both in stature and in height - and compared to the super robots really were just oversized infantry. At the time they were considered a more "technological" approach to mecha in comparison to the rather unfeasible Super Robots. The internally armed mecha Battletech are based on and that people recognize as such - Fang of the Sun Dougram anyone? - were a parallel attempt to introduce a similar "technological approach" that largely failed to catch on, or rather failed to prevail past the 80s. Macross itself took a middle of the road pass and originally still embodied a lot of Super Robot aesthetics (such as the platform approach of SDF1) while transforming it into the military setting that only caught on in the 80s.

By the 90s - after Patlabor, thinking mostly Appleseed and such - most new anime redefined this further into a further downsized realistic oversized infantry exoskeleton and a parallel larger internally armed mecha approach (this includes Gundam to a limited extent), but the aesthetics of Gundam and Macross due to market impact managed to prevail in parallel to that kinda thing.

One also has to consider in the overall context that mecha anime - by the mid 70s - had primarily become a device to sell models of mecha, and Bandai with Gundam simply ruled and rules that kind of market.
« Last Edit: 17 February 2018, 03:11:22 by kato »

Tymers Realm

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #932 on: 17 February 2018, 07:34:12 »
MoneyLovinOgre4Hire
While it is true of most Gundam Mechs, I mentioned Heavy Arms (from Gundam Wing) specifically because it is a Gundam that is very BT-like.

DarkSpade

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #933 on: 17 February 2018, 10:27:41 »
There's a practical benefit too.  If an external weapon jams, you go get another.  Faster to reload that way too.  Just drop of the old gun, grab another, and let a crew reload while you go back to shooting.
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Matti

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #934 on: 17 February 2018, 10:56:27 »
Don't forget Armored Trooper VOTOMS. Armored Troopers are ProtoMech sized mecha that look like something that could be made right now if someone would invest enough effort and money for it. But the million dollar question is: would the end product be better than a tank?
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MadCapellan

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #935 on: 17 February 2018, 11:06:58 »
Thr series Gundam ZZ featured a lot of mobile suits with built-in weaponry, but it was definitely on of the less popular Universal Century Gundam series, & designs after ZZ reverted more to the norm.

I'm sure that like Kato said, Tomino had oversized infantry in mind when he created Gundam - handheld weapons are mission flexible & easily replaceable. Most other mecha anime follow Gundam's lead.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #936 on: 17 February 2018, 13:26:02 »
Anyone recognize that Gundam figure I described?
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MadCapellan

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #937 on: 17 February 2018, 13:37:33 »
Anyone recognize that Gundam figure I described?

Unfortunately, white with red & blue trim is basically every main character Gundam ever animated! I can't think of any Gundam specifically with a star on its head. Unfortunately, China produces a lot of Gundam knock-off figures that are ever so slightly different from any existing Gundam design.

kato

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #938 on: 17 February 2018, 13:40:28 »
Anyone recognize that Gundam figure I described?
Silhouette Formula Project RX-99 Neo Gundam.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #939 on: 17 February 2018, 14:19:20 »
Hmm, looking at the Gundam wiki, that's almost but not quite the same, the main difference is that the toy I had had large cannons attached to its back that came out of the waist.  Could have been a knock-off design: ten-year-old me certainly wouldn't have known the difference.

Edit: looking at the other Gundam from that series, I think it might have been the F90111-Y Cluster Gundam.

Thank you
« Last Edit: 17 February 2018, 14:24:48 by MoneyLovinOgre4Hire »
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kato

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #940 on: 17 February 2018, 14:27:16 »
Perhaps a misaligned core fighter?

There's details of the painted model by some guy who owns it here.

Edit: Whoa, that Cluster Gundam looks... phallic. Sorry, no other word for it.
« Last Edit: 17 February 2018, 14:29:01 by kato »

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #941 on: 17 February 2018, 15:07:51 »
Sorry, I assumed star-like would be more, well....star-shaped.  F91 Gundam has the beam shield and the hip guns.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #942 on: 17 February 2018, 15:26:58 »
Sorry, I assumed star-like would be more, well....star-shaped.  F91 Gundam has the beam shield and the hip guns.

THAT'S IT!

That is the toy I had!
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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #943 on: 17 February 2018, 15:36:16 »
I don't remember if I asked this before or not, but how come in most anime, combat mecha pretty much universally rely on external weaponry as if they're oversized infantry and rarely if ever have weapon systems that are hard-mounted to the mecha's body the way Battletech does things?

I'm wondering if it's driven by some cultural (or pop-cultural) aspect.  I've noticed mecha devised by American media tend along a different design trend than Japanese.  Japanese tend to have torso-mounted cockpits and hand-held weaponry.  American tend to have head-mounted cockpits and built in weaponry.  Exceptions exist of course, but from what I've seen that is the general trend.

Probably from deriving from differdnt original sources (American taking after Macross while Japan taking more after Gundam?)
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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #944 on: 17 February 2018, 15:45:50 »
American taking after Macross

Macross didn't typically have head mounted cockpits either. Veritechs all had their cockpits within the body. Only a handful of the Destroids had cockpits up top of the mecha.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #945 on: 17 February 2018, 15:47:53 »
An odd conundrum.
« Last Edit: 17 February 2018, 15:49:29 by MoneyLovinOgre4Hire »
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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #946 on: 17 February 2018, 16:09:52 »
I know it's a bit older, but I picked up "The Legend of the Legendary Heroes" today...

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #947 on: 17 February 2018, 20:20:00 »
I'm slowly watching that a second time on Funimation.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #948 on: 17 February 2018, 22:43:45 »
Decided to watch Expelled From Paradise last night.  Been sitting on my Netflix list for a couple years now.

It was okay, but honestly could have stood to have had an extra half-hour or so to expand on Angela's character growth.
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Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #949 on: 17 February 2018, 22:53:16 »
 ;D
Macross didn't typically have head mounted cockpits either. Veritechs all had their cockpits within the body. Only a handful of the Destroids had cockpits up top of the mecha.

Ok, so tehere's that flaw in my arguement.  But still, I see head mounted cockpits much more in American-made stuff than Japan.  And the Destroids seem more like what Americans conceptualize.  Unless they're doing conversions of Japanese concepts.

Though, that seems to be more and moe typical.  America seems less and less interested in it's own mecha stuff, though power armor I've noticed an uptick in the last decade
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MadCapellan

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #950 on: 18 February 2018, 00:51:15 »
But still, I see head mounted cockpits much more in American-made stuff than Japan.  And the Destroids seem more like what Americans conceptualize.  Unless they're doing conversions of Japanese concepts.

Though, that seems to be more and moe typical.  America seems less and less interested in it's own mecha stuff, though power armor I've noticed an uptick in the last decade

Boy, do I have a rant I can probably spare you all!  ;D

Dies Irae

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #951 on: 18 February 2018, 07:02:33 »
Boy, do I have a rant I can probably spare you all!  ;D

I want to hear it, actually.

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #952 on: 18 February 2018, 08:22:06 »
I want to hear it, actually.

As long as it doesn't violate forum rules, so would I...

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #953 on: 18 February 2018, 08:39:04 »
Me three.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #954 on: 18 February 2018, 10:33:54 »
I have to hear it now.
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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #955 on: 18 February 2018, 11:30:02 »
Bring it!
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MadCapellan

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #956 on: 18 February 2018, 14:15:07 »
In a nutshell, it comes down to the self-ghettoizing of Western mecha franchises by their fans & creators.

Head over to the "other Mecha Games" thread. I don't think anyone's mentioned a single game that's doing well in the current environment. It's pretty much the same story for Western video games, where Battletech games are having fits & starts via kickstarter, Titanfall 2 did decently as a hybrid Mecha/infantry shooter, but otherwise it's a dead genre. Meanwhile anime, including mecha anime, is more popular with Western audiences than ever. Why?

While I don't think this applies to anyone in this thread for obvious reasons, there are large swaths of both the fanbase & the creative community that knee-jerk reject anime & anything that doesn't fall into their established sense of aesthetics. This is especially ironic considering both modern anime & Western mecha franchises are both descended from the same 70's & 80's anime franchises, but that seems lost on the purveyors of this outlook.

While it's one thing to say "Yeah, I'm not a fan of Code Geass's mecha, they're too flashy." It's quite another when a community develops a cultural contempt for another part of the genre & its fans. As traditional marketing avenues for the world of table-top games & paperback novels continue to fade from relevance, anime is thriving in the digital age! This contempt from older fans of Western mecha for anime & most importantly, it's fans, combined with a unwillingness on the part of many creators to engage them in the spaces they frequent is pretty much strangling traditional Western mecha properties.

Twenty years ago when I got into Battletech, I walked into a comic book store, saw the shiny 3rd Edition boxed set for Battletech sitting in the shelf, & I bought it, because I'd been infatuated with giant robots since I was much younger watching Transformers & Robotech. If I were that kid today, the local comic book store doesn't stock table-top games not named Warhammer anymore, & there's hardly a FLGS to be found & barring an older relative, there's hardly anyone who could point you to one. Every young person with an interest in giant fighting robots right now is meeting that fix with anime they found online.

The only rational course of action for someone attempting to market a similar product should be to try to engage those customers and win them over to your product - instead, companies producing Western mecha almost completely ignore anime conventions & web communities, and fans often direct derision at anime fans who approach their games at stores or events.  Western mecha games & fiction are killing themselves, & there's no reason for it other than the community's own bigotry towards people and properties that have substantial thematic, aesthetic & narrative similarities to those they claim to love.

I love both aesthetics, so I'd hate to see Western mecha disappear. I don't want it to turn into anime either - Western mecha's greater focus on a gritty military aesthetic is fantastic & I'd never want to lose it. But if we refuse to engage with a new generation of mecha fans who naturally gravitated towards anime because it was the most readily available outlet for their interests, then we're just waiting for the inevitable end. I know asking the fan community to change their outlook is shouting at the wind, but I at least would like the industry figures to wake up before it's too late.

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #957 on: 18 February 2018, 14:57:58 »
In a nutshell, it comes down to the self-ghettoizing of Western mecha franchises by their fans & creators.

Head over to the "other Mecha Games" thread. I don't think anyone's mentioned a single game that's doing well in the current environment. It's pretty much the same story for Western video games, where Battletech games are having fits & starts via kickstarter, Titanfall 2 did decently as a hybrid Mecha/infantry shooter, but otherwise it's a dead genre. Meanwhile anime, including mecha anime, is more popular with Western audiences than ever. Why?

While I don't think this applies to anyone in this thread for obvious reasons, there are large swaths of both the fanbase & the creative community that knee-jerk reject anime & anything that doesn't fall into their established sense of aesthetics. This is especially ironic considering both modern anime & Western mecha franchises are both descended from the same 70's & 80's anime franchises, but that seems lost on the purveyors of this outlook.

While it's one thing to say "Yeah, I'm not a fan of Code Geass's mecha, they're too flashy." It's quite another when a community develops a cultural contempt for another part of the genre & its fans. As traditional marketing avenues for the world of table-top games & paperback novels continue to fade from relevance, anime is thriving in the digital age! This contempt from older fans of Western mecha for anime & most importantly, it's fans, combined with a unwillingness on the part of many creators to engage them in the spaces they frequent is pretty much strangling traditional Western mecha properties.

Twenty years ago when I got into Battletech, I walked into a comic book store, saw the shiny 3rd Edition boxed set for Battletech sitting in the shelf, & I bought it, because I'd been infatuated with giant robots since I was much younger watching Transformers & Robotech. If I were that kid today, the local comic book store doesn't stock table-top games not named Warhammer anymore, & there's hardly a FLGS to be found & barring an older relative, there's hardly anyone who could point you to one. Every young person with an interest in giant fighting robots right now is meeting that fix with anime they found online.

The only rational course of action for someone attempting to market a similar product should be to try to engage those customers and win them over to your product - instead, companies producing Western mecha almost completely ignore anime conventions & web communities, and fans often direct derision at anime fans who approach their games at stores or events.  Western mecha games & fiction are killing themselves, & there's no reason for it other than the community's own bigotry towards people and properties that have substantial thematic, aesthetic & narrative similarities to those they claim to love.

I love both aesthetics, so I'd hate to see Western mecha disappear. I don't want it to turn into anime either - Western mecha's greater focus on a gritty military aesthetic is fantastic & I'd never want to lose it. But if we refuse to engage with a new generation of mecha fans who naturally gravitated towards anime because it was the most readily available outlet for their interests, then we're just waiting for the inevitable end. I know asking the fan community to change their outlook is shouting at the wind, but I at least would like the industry figures to wake up before it's too late.
I agree with this, every word.

Short version: Grognard giant robot wargame players got snotty and hated on newer mecha anime (I still remember snide complaints about Gundam Wing from what, almost 20 years ago!), which alienated a lot of people who grew up liking mecha anime and SHOULD have been natural recruits.

I mean, there are other reasons that giant robot games have declined, but I think you've hit on the key one. It does no good for new potential recruits to hear, "WHAT YOU LIKE IS TERRIBLE AND THIS IS WHY" from the people that they want to play games with.


That's the main game plan behind my infiltration of the FLGS, which is dominated by Warhammer 40k right now. I've made it clear that my beef is with Games Workshop and that I do in fact like the 40k universe... I just happen to like these things a little better. Wanna give it a shot?

MadCapellan

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #958 on: 18 February 2018, 15:22:15 »
One of the reasons I fly my anime flag so high here is because I want that visibility. If new players come to this forum, I want them to see that there are people who like anime here, and that it's okay. I'm doing my best to be a clear example that the guys who shat on you for your liking "flying ballerina robots" aren't the only guys playing this game. The tent is big! Come on in!

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Re: And You Thought There Was Never an Anime Thread on This Forum!
« Reply #959 on: 18 February 2018, 15:25:21 »
One of the reasons I fly my anime flag so high here is because I want that visibility. If new players come to this forum, I want them to see that there are people who like anime here, and that it's okay. I'm doing my best to be a clear example that the guys who shat on you for your liking "flying ballerina robots" aren't the only guys playing this game. The tent is big! Come on in!
Completely agree, also with partial wings and improved jumpjets, we can't really complain about "flying ballerina robots" .....
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