TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold

[Requiemking]

Didn't notice that.  Stretching vertically I could see as an artifact of the document creation, the generating program making it fit a specific set of dimensions for the legal work, but editing art and claiming it's what your infringers are using?  Bad pool, HGUSA.

I think that, once pointed out, it will blow HG's credibility to hell. After all, if they are so lacking in confidence in their case that they edited images to make it stronger, then I see no reason for a judge or jury to entertain their case for even a second.

[sadlerbw]

I think that, once pointed out, it will blow HG's credibility to hell. After all, if they are so lacking in confidence in their case that they edited images to make it stronger, then I see no reason for a judge or jury to entertain their case for even a second.

Unlikely. Judges tend to be pretty reasonable about stuff like that. At worst, the judge might ask them to amend the complaint. The judge probably doesn't have any interest in deciding how much of a screenshot from a webpage they should crop out to be relevant. Also the defense is welcome to submit their own images, or un-altered versions of what is in the complaint. Basically, if called out, it would likely be a matter of HGs lawyers just saying, 'oops, they got screwed up when we dropped them in Word. Well go fix that.' Minutiae does matter in court, but not in that way. Contract language and the language of a law are fair game for arguing minor details. Quibbling about how a picture was scaled in a complaint? That isn't going to go anywhere. A better way to deal with it is just to submit your own images as evidence if the case goes that far.

[Requiemking]

Unlikely. Judges tend to be pretty reasonable about stuff like that. At worst, the judge might ask them to amend the complaint. The judge probably doesn't have any interest in deciding how much of a screenshot from a webpage they should crop out to be relevant. Also the defense is welcome to submit their own images, or un-altered versions of what is in the complaint. Basically, if called out, it would likely be a matter of HGs lawyers just saying, 'oops, they got screwed up when we dropped them in Word. Well go fix that.' Minutiae does matter in court, but not in that way. Contract language and the language of a law are fair game for arguing minor details. Quibbling about how a picture was scaled in a complaint? That isn't going to go anywhere. A better way to deal with it is just to submit your own images as evidence if the case goes that far.

However, while the "oops bad crop" thing might fly with the Phoenix Hawk(except for the part where they edited out a major difference between the Super Valkyrie and the PGI Phoenix Hawk), I highly doubt it will fly with the Warhammer, given that they edited in such a way as to change the silhouette to better match the Tomahawk.

[ColBosch]

However, while the "oops bad crop" thing might fly with the Phoenix Hawk(except for the part where they edited out a major difference between the Super Valkyrie and the PGI Phoenix Hawk), I highly doubt it will fly with the Warhammer, given that they edited in such a way as to change the silhouette to better match the Tomahawk.

These images are not evidence at this point. They are just there to establish HG's argument for starting a lawsuit. They are free to manipulate them to show similarities.

[pheonixstorm]

So since nothing new is happening it would appear the main MWO lawsuit thread has devolved into arguing about the merits of Gundam v Macross.

[pheonixstorm]

Ok, question. The portion related to CGL only covers the Marauder and Warhammer correct?

[glitterboy2098]

i believe those are just the examples they have used, and it would effect all the classics derived from macross unseens.

[ColBosch]

Ok, question. The portion related to CGL only covers the Marauder and Warhammer correct?

And the new Archer, but they are free to amend at any time.

[ColBosch]

So since nothing new is happening it would appear the main MWO lawsuit thread has devolved into arguing about the merits of Gundam v Macross.

So MWO's forum moderation stinks. Got it.

[pheonixstorm]

Ok, so why didn't the Wasp, Valkyrie, and P. Hawk get added? The art for two of those were in CM Kurita and the Valk was in 1st SW. All of which were released mid 2016 or earlier. The new Rifleman I can see not being around since that art was never used other than the few teasers we got.

[ColBosch]

Ok, so why didn't the Wasp, Valkyrie, and P. Hawk get added? The art for two of those were in CM Kurita and the Valk was in 1st SW. All of which were released mid 2016 or earlier. The new Rifleman I can see not being around since that art was never used other than the few teasers we got.

Maybe HG doesn't feel they're close enough to build a case around. Maybe they didn't know about them. Maybe they're working on a revised complaint right now. Who knows? Why even bring it up when there is no way the question can be answered?

[monbvol]

I won't be surprised if Harmony Gold does amend the complaint again.

We also can't forget IMR/CGL are also being cited as a party to breaking the legally binding agreement signed in 1996.

I'll laugh my ass off then dance for joy if I get a jury summons for federal court though.

[SCC]

Yeah, the Warhammer was stretched vertically and the Phoenix hawk had its arm cropped out.

That might simply have been the pictures they found or something like that

[Requiemking]

That might simply have been the pictures they found or something like that

Nope. Every picture of the PGI Phoenix Hawk I've seen on the internet has the double laser pistol on the right arm, and the Warhammer was quite clearly edited as the PGI Warhammer is wider and stockier than the Tomahawk.

[monbvol]

Which we still can't call Harmony Gold out on too much.

It is only if they try and do that for their actual submittal of evidence.

[SteelRaven]

HG also went after HBS for designs have nothing to do with Robotech, don't know if their hopping to fool a judge or have actual lost touch with the reality of the  product

[ColBosch]

Yeah, the examples they gave from HBS are very weak. It really does feel like a ploy to drag in Jordan Weisman, since he's the only direct link to the FASA agreement. If HBS shows that they have not implemented any of the designs in question, then they're fine.

[pheonixstorm]

You are referring to the PGI designs in the complaint I assume?

[monbvol]

HBS is using the same designs/models as PGI but the claims leveled specifically at HBS are so drastically different that they should have no trouble getting everything leveled at them specifically dismissed.  With prejudice too, at least sort of.  I doubt the breach of contract claims can be truly dismissed with prejudice without something to negate the contract as well.

[glitterboy2098]

it occurs to me that if HG does by some miracle win the case vs HBS/PGI/IMR.. the precedent that sets will bite HG in the rear end with the live action film.

because if they are doing macross saga (which by all indications they are), HG will have to major redesigns to the mecha in order to avoid infringing on Studio-Nue's property.

but if Hg wins the case vs HBS/PGI/IMR, the precedent set will be that even major changes to the appearance and design does not stop it being infringement.

so if HG wins against mechwarrior and battletech.. live action robotech loses. it either cannot be done, or has to have so many changes that it becomes robotech in name only.

[JadedFalcon]

To me, the ultimate irony is that if the Robotech film ever leaves development hell, there's still a strong likelihood that the director, or producer, or production designer, or other controlling party will still change the designs dramatically from the original Macross if only the make them their own. Any intelligent executive producer will want to have visual changes made to the Robotech mecha, if only to have more control over the IP and merchandising rather than rely on a problematic IP license.

[ColBosch]

To me, the ultimate irony is that if the Robotech film ever leaves development hell, there's still a strong likelihood that the director, or producer, or production designer, or other controlling party will still change the designs dramatically from the original Macross if only the make them their own. Any intelligent executive producer will want to have visual changes made to the Robotech mecha, if only to have more control over the IP and merchandising rather than rely on a problematic IP license.

They absolutely have to redesign the mecha for the movie. Sony would not be interested in making a big-budget, FX-heavy film purely for the American market. Also, the designs look awfully dated these days.

But I think the movie is dead in the water. Pac Rim 2 comes out early 2018, so if they wanted to compete with it they should've started filming last year. If they were to start filming right now, this could be out late 2018 or early 2019, but what's the point? It'll make a bit of money, but there's no franchise past 2021.

[Feenix74]

Could Sony licence the rights for The Robotech Macross Movie 2: The Invid Strikes Back direct from Tatsunoko after 2021?

[Korzon77]

Which is the story of HG's life-- I mean  the thing is, they breathelessly announce another studio has optioned the rights, or a director has read a script roughly once every four years or so.
Doesn't mean anything.  The one thing you never hear about is "we're starting production" "we're doing anything that would require money."

[Korzon77]

Could Sony licence the rights for The Robotech Macross Movie 2: The Invid Strikes Back direct from Tatsunoko after 2021?

Why?  Nobody cares about the Invid. The thing is, if they're going to do hat, why not wait until the rights revert and then, license an honest to god Macross movie.  It's not like they don't have lots of room for stories in it.

Robotech is narrative, tiny. sure you have them talking about galaxies and such, but the only things that count in the show are the MC's and very small battles.  MAcross?  Between colonization fleets and offworld colonies, you can pretty much have full movie adventures, even if the "main characters" never make an appearance, IE, the reason we'v enever seen Rick at all since the origional series.

Also, if you license it from the people who owned the rigbhts, you eliminate any of the possible problems with Robotech IP.

Lastly, a Macross movie has the advantage that you're not using a word "robotech" that is cordially hated by many fans due to HG's actions. Seriously, why make a movie that a number of people will loudly hate?  Especially since everyone else will be going: What? What is robotech?

Trnasformers is often mentioned when talk of a robotech movie comes about, but the thing is, Transformers is a living franchise that had pretty much continuious activity from the 1980s until the movies. Robotech is nearly unknown beyond a relatively small group, many of whom only know it because it's the property that keeps them from buying Macross stuff.

[Cyc]

Lastly, a Macross movie has the advantage that you're not using a word "robotech" that is cordially hated by many fans due to HG's actions. Seriously, why make a movie that a number of people will loudly hate?  Especially since everyone else will be going: What? What is robotech?

Sony isn't chasing Robotech fans anymore than the Transformers films were made for Transformer fans directly, they will be chasing mainstream people who vaguely recall watching that cartoon with the transformable jets and that big spaceship that transformed, I think it was called Robosomething, or yeah Robotech.

Macross has no little to utterly no mainstream fan recognition outside of anime fans, to the point it would be better to start a new IP rather than license it for a live action movie.

[abou]

So still more than a year out. I imagine the parties are still in talks and it doesn't look like anything new on the website collecting the court documents -- unless I missed something. I really wish I could be a fly on the wall in either lawyer's office.

I was thinking that the idea of how a layman's view might help us. Those that are ignorant (not in the pejorative sense) of these kinds of fictional universes might not be able to tell the difference of any of these -- much the way that my dad couldn't tell the difference between Alternative rock songs.

"They all sound the same!"

"Yeah, dad, because they use guitars, have a male vocalist, and are in 4/4 time. What do you want?"

But all those songs were different -- at least to me. And different enough that artists didn't sue each other. So what then if the Rifleman and Defender have arms ending in double-barrel cannons? That's the way it is because they each carry symmetrical weapons load outs with two big guns in each arm -- it is what it is and you can't copyright that.

That's if there isn't a settlement first. Unfortunately, monbvol, having been summoned to jury duty once myself, they won't accept you on the jury if you have even a whiff of knowledge about the case. The lawyers will smell you out and you won't get picked.

[Koshirou]

The thing is: While both brands (RoboTech and Macross) have no appreciable amount of recognition in the West (the former a teensy bit more than the latter), making a Macross movie would at least have some potential of activating fans in Japan. Of course, as Ghost in the Shell has shown, this sort of calculation does not necessarily work out, especially if your movie is overall rather "meh" and you severely overestimated the mainstream appeal (in Japan) of your property in the first place.

Transformers is a different story, with considerably deeper roots in the US mainstream. 

[Dulahan]

So still more than a year out. I imagine the parties are still in talks and it doesn't look like anything new on the website collecting the court documents -- unless I missed something. I really wish I could be a fly on the wall in either lawyer's office.

I was thinking that the idea of how a layman's view might help us. Those that are ignorant (not in the pejorative sense) of these kinds of fictional universes might not be able to tell the difference of any of these -- much the way that my dad couldn't tell the difference between Alternative rock songs.

"They all sound the same!"

"Yeah, dad, because they use guitars, have a male vocalist, and are in 4/4 time. What do you want?"

But all those songs were different -- at least to me. And different enough that artists didn't sue each other. So what then if the Rifleman and Defender have arms ending in double-barrel cannons? That's the way it is because they each carry symmetrical weapons load outs with two big guns in each arm -- it is what it is and you can't copyright that.

That's if there isn't a settlement first. Unfortunately, monbvol, having been summoned to jury duty once myself, they won't accept you on the jury if you have even a whiff of knowledge about the case. The lawyers will smell you out and you won't get picked.

Yeah, that's the key point here.  Hell, I'd wager the prosecution will not accept any lawyer on the case that's even a whiff of a mecha fan.  Someone who liked Transformers?  Nope.  Someone who likes Giant Robots?  Not a chance.  Watched Robotech as a kid?  Oh heck no!  Pacific Rim?  Not gonna happen.

They will want the most boring, not geeky people they can find.  Even people from Detail Oriented Professions are typically not accepted on Juries either.  That works against the side we want to win here.  Lawyers trying to lead them on or not, remember, the other side's lawyer is trying to tell them the opposite, that this IS similar.

12 Bored, unhappy to be on Jury Duty people, deciding this.  That's what we're looking at.  12 people like abou's dad who might not care about the minutiae distinctions here, and instead might think all giant robots look alike because that's what HG's lawyer will be trying to convince them of.

That's scary.  Worst case scenario to be fair, but still a bit scary if the jury selection works out poorly.

[sadlerbw]

I'll laugh my ass off then dance for joy if I get a jury summons for federal court though.

For some reason, I don't think you would make it through voie dire!

The more I think about it, and the more I look at the complaint, the more I think this is headed for a settlement. The claims to bring in HBS are a joke, PGI and CGL don't belong in the same suit, and dragging PGI into US court is a stretch. HG are many things, but legally stupid usually isn't one of them. It just 'feels' like they want something out of a settlement here, but I'm not totally sure what. I don't think it is money, or at least not just money. I'm sure they will demand some money, because why wouldn't they, but I doubt that is what they are really after. Do they want a covenant not to sue? Do they think they need to do this to protect their IP rights? Is it something more nuanced that I'm missing? I'm not really sure, but their whole complaint just seems like something you would file to get people to the table. That's just my opinion though.