Author Topic: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther  (Read 4922 times)

VhenRa

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #30 on: 07 August 2017, 10:56:15 »
From my MUL notes
"PNT-12K/2 are indeed meant to be identical; we decided not to introduce a new -12K RS, as the only difference was one being a field refit (-12K2 --> of the -10K2, but to -12K specs), the other a factory model (-12K)."
Record sheet wise, they are identical. But their provenance is different.  Sort of like the VTR-9K/9D.


Reminds me of stuff from WWII where you might upgrade the Mark II of something to Mark III specs but call it Mark III* or something. While new builds are just called Mark IIIs.

pensiveswetness

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #31 on: 08 August 2017, 01:00:07 »
about the PNT-14S...

You stated in your article that this model used by the WoB was being built in some location but I have easier to digest opinion: Those 14S are spare 10Ks acquired through various methods prior to the introduction of Improved JJ tech. They were then modified somewhere in the WoB Protectorate (my guess: Terra) as test bed designs for other tech and units as the Jihad ramped up it's frenzy. It's the fact that all the weapons are stripped out, the cockpit swapped and the 13 SHS still retained on a Endo Steel chassis that convinces me of the 14S's purpose in life.

other than that, a very entertaining article, sir.


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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #32 on: 08 August 2017, 01:13:09 »
I have always had a love of the Panther, whether bacon was present or not (too obscure?).

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #33 on: 08 August 2017, 01:14:03 »
So instead of the 1 heat point/hex of standard jump jets, an improved jump jet generates 0.5 heat/hex jumped?

Rounded up, and the minimum is still 3.

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Kidd

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #34 on: 08 August 2017, 01:55:03 »
The Ballistic Resistant Armor variant makes sense since the DCMS is facing the AFFS. The AFFS love of autocannons is well known, so the refit is more than new toy syndrome. It's smart new toy syndrome.
Perhaps. I'm not personally convinced situational equipment is worth the weight, but it's true that B-R suffers no penalty against the weapons it doesn't cover, unlike other armour types.
From my MUL notes
"PNT-12K/2 are indeed meant to be identical; we decided not to introduce a new -12K RS, as the only difference was one being a field refit (-12K2 --> of the -10K2, but to -12K specs), the other a factory model (-12K)."
Record sheet wise, they are identical. But their provenance is different.  Sort of like the VTR-9K/9D.
So we have cleared up the issue of both mystery Panthers! excellent!  ;D
The 14S isn't as bad off as it seems...
Thing is, double heat sinks would be infinitely better. The result would be slightly crit-packed due to the need to find space for 4 DHS, but it's doable. That would free up tonnage for C3i and other goodies... and that's not even the best upgrade I can think of, I'll leave that to the fan tinkerers to work on...
You stated in your article that this model used by the WoB was being built in some location but I have easier to digest opinion: Those 14S are spare 10Ks acquired through various methods prior to the introduction of Improved JJ tech. They were then modified somewhere in the WoB Protectorate (my guess: Terra) as test bed designs for other tech and units as the Jihad ramped up it's frenzy. It's the fact that all the weapons are stripped out, the cockpit swapped and the 13 SHS still retained on a Endo Steel chassis that convinces me of the 14S's purpose in life.
Perhaps. The retention of the single heat sinks does suggest the notion of salvaged or black market 10Ks. No real idea, it was just some fluff written in the TRO really.

Maelwys

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #35 on: 08 August 2017, 08:54:18 »
Thing is, double heat sinks would be infinitely better. The result would be slightly crit-packed due to the need to find space for 4 DHS, but it's doable. That would free up tonnage for C3i and other goodies... and that's not even the best upgrade I can think of, I'll leave that to the fan tinkerers to work on...

Oh sure, I'm not saying its great, but the 13 single heat sinks aren't as crippling to the 14S as it is to the 10K. Could it be better? Sure. But the heat efficiency of the Improved Jump Jets allows it to operate rather efficiently. Though I will note that with a 140 rated engine you have to find the space for 5 DHS if you drop it down to 10, which makes it slightly more problematic (though again, tinkering can overcome this with interesting results)

Maelwys

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #36 on: 08 August 2017, 19:17:58 »
about the PNT-14S...

You stated in your article that this model used by the WoB was being built in some location but I have easier to digest opinion: Those 14S are spare 10Ks acquired through various methods prior to the introduction of Improved JJ tech. They were then modified somewhere in the WoB Protectorate (my guess: Terra) as test bed designs for other tech and units as the Jihad ramped up it's frenzy. It's the fact that all the weapons are stripped out, the cockpit swapped and the 13 SHS still retained on a Endo Steel chassis that convinces me of the 14S's purpose in life.

Its not confirmed, and its in one of the "Conspiracy" books, but on page 49 of Jihad Secrets has an O5P intelligence briefing that states the 14S is "being built in large numbers on Dieron."

How true that is however...

And yeah, most likely its a refit of the 9Rs...the question is, where did all the 9Rs come from to be refit.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #37 on: 08 August 2017, 22:14:43 »
...And yeah, most likely its a refit of the 9Rs...the question is, where did all the 9Rs come from to be refit.

Well 9Rs were in constant production for centuries.

I believe it also helps to imagine that most battlemechs are actually in private or petty feudal hands rather than the 5 great houses accounting for most of them.

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #38 on: 08 August 2017, 22:42:50 »
I find it interesting that the PNT-9R is on the Periphery General list on the MUL into the Jihad, then all PNTs vanish from their list, while Pirates keep that, the PNT-10K and PNT-10KA into the Early Republic era.
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Maelwys

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #39 on: 09 August 2017, 00:45:55 »
Well 9Rs were in constant production for centuries.

I believe it also helps to imagine that most battlemechs are actually in private or petty feudal hands rather than the 5 great houses accounting for most of them.

Well sure. But enough lying around for another party to make a decent amount of them? Especially since TR3050U states that the new factory on Tok Do concentrated on producing upgrade packages and spare parts. Presumably that means they were converting the 9Rs to 10Ks (much to everyone's annoyance I'm sure).

It just always seemed odd to me. I mean, Dieron produces Grand Dragons. There's an actual factory on the planet that the WoB captured and held. And yet we see Panthers revamped instead and no Grand Dragons.

I find it interesting that the PNT-9R is on the Periphery General list on the MUL into the Jihad, then all PNTs vanish from their list, while Pirates keep that, the PNT-10K and PNT-10KA into the Early Republic era.

I find it interesting and odd. Especially since TR3039 states "The Draconis Combine was the only House that used the Panther in any significance during the Succession Wars." and also talks about how captured Panthers in the AFFS and LAAF are often simply run into the ground and then sold for scrap or into the mercenary market. Places liek the CapCon and Periphery are odd choices...

Wrangler

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #40 on: 09 August 2017, 10:08:44 »
I find it interesting that the PNT-9R is on the Periphery General list on the MUL into the Jihad, then all PNTs vanish from their list, while Pirates keep that, the PNT-10K and PNT-10KA into the Early Republic era.
I don't think the MUL is super accentuate either.  It's always a work in progress.
The suppliments we've received during the years has RATs which highlighted units we won't have thought of using for factions.

FM 3145 lists PNT-13s, 16s in Combine service for example. Era Digest Dark Age hast the PNT-12As available in the Combine or even Era Report: 3145 has the Republic having PNT-10K2 in service, while PNT-16Ks and again the 12As listed.

I do think there likely some old school PNT-9Rs still lurking about but perhaps their so infrequent in numbers that their not listed.  Extinction would be clearly marked on MUL so they will properly harder to get the ones not listed.

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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #41 on: 10 August 2017, 17:34:43 »
Well sure. But enough lying around for another party to make a decent amount of them?

Basically, yes that's what I was saying.  However many 9Rs the DCMS procured over the centuries, there are X more 9Rs that never went to the DCMS and instead went straight into private/petty feudal hands.  If you value X high enough, that can explain the availability of chassis and spare parts even up to/through the Jihad.

skiltao

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #42 on: 11 August 2017, 21:30:00 »
Kidd, I enjoyed this article more than most! Very digestible.

Panther variant existing in limbo

Got one more for you, one of the first SLDF "royal" variants ever. Page 107 of the old Star League sourcebook has a textbox titled "The Winning Edge" which pictures a Panther with six missile tubes above the following text:

"Compared to 'Mechs of the 31st century, Star League 'Mechs in the middle 2700s had more efficient and lighter fusionplants and engines, more efficient heatsinks, longer-range weapons, smarter missiles, advanced electronics, and better-trained pilots." Goes on to say how the Coup stopped research and Kerensky took off with technology unknown and unmatched.
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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #43 on: 11 August 2017, 22:02:56 »
Art could be depicting a customized Panther rather than a Royal variant.

Slight digression:
Interesting description. Was SL sourcebook released before or after TRO 2750?
The listed items match XL engines, double heat sinks, ER lasers and PPCs, Streaks and Artemis IV, and Beagle and Guardian suites.

MarauderD

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #44 on: 12 August 2017, 16:29:52 »
Wish we could get this flowchart for the Dragon, the variants just plain confuse me: when they came out, when they were in use, what replaced what, etc.

Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #45 on: 12 August 2017, 17:01:33 »
Hmm, might try constructing one. If i do, i'll post it in the Dragon article.

skiltao

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #46 on: 12 August 2017, 21:34:18 »
Interesting description. Was SL sourcebook released before or after TRO 2750?
The listed items match XL engines, double heat sinks, ER lasers and PPCs, Streaks and Artemis IV, and Beagle and Guardian suites.

The SLSB has a copyright of 1988 while TR2750 has a copyright of 1989, but it wouldn't surprise me if their development overlapped. I also find it interesting that the "fusion plant" and "engine" are listed separately as though they're separate items.

Quote
Art could be depicting a customized Panther rather than a Royal variant.

Royal variants are defined by the technology they have (stuff that hasn't been passed along to the other Star League member-states yet), not by how numerous the variant is.

The picture is inside the textbox, by the way, and that particular textbox is where the whole concept of "royal variants" originated. ;)
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #47 on: 12 August 2017, 21:42:33 »
I have always wonder why the Panther never got a C3 master, uses in lances with other C3 Panther, a command Lance and a lance of heavier spotters it turns the usual C3 tactics upside down.  The Panthers make cheap but effective fire unit that is ignored as its only light mechs.
They did, it's called the Daimyo-5K.   ;)
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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #48 on: 12 August 2017, 22:26:52 »
The SLSB has a copyright of 1988 while TR2750 has a copyright of 1989, but it wouldn't surprise me if their development overlapped. I also find it interesting that the "fusion plant" and "engine" are listed separately as though they're separate items.
Interesting. I would guess the development overlapped indeed, probably they had ideas for upgrades by then. And the ClanTech, of course.

The text could be talking about power plants generally. Like, Star League internal combustion engines were probably better than others. Alternatively, engine could refer to myomers. I mean, if we are exact, a 'Mech's fusion plant is its power plant, and myomers are the engines, powered by the fusion plant.
As for why there is no "advanced myomer" or such, the explanation is simple: The fusion engine item in 'Mech construction rules is an abstraction that, with internal structure, incorporates myomers of a 'Mech. Consider item weights in 'Mechs, specifically the internal structure. Does it incorporate myomer mass or not? If it does, does it mean endo-steel has lighter myomers too? Or are myomer weights assumed to be part of the engine? Mass being localized to single items despite fluff indicating otherwise has precedent: The Targeting Computer for example.

Royal variants are defined by the technology they have (stuff that hasn't been passed along to the other Star League member-states yet), not by how numerous the variant is.

The picture is inside the textbox, by the way, and that particular textbox is where the whole concept of "royal variants" originated. ;)
Given that there never has been any mention about a Royal (or even just Star League-era advanced) Panther, it seems likely the picture was never intended to represent an advanced Star League 'Mech, or if it was, the idea was quickly dropped (regardless of attached text).
Art in modern sourcebooks may not match the setting, content or contex otherwise, like First Succession Wars having an era-inappropriate 'Mech in one picture (either from later era or an extinct design, can't recall) and Second Succession War featuring Elemental Battle Armor for some reason on one page, these are likely due to layout and production demands. Presumably similar things may have happened during early BattleTech.

(Also, art featuring odd number of missile tubes or gun-barrels is a staple in BattleTech art. TRO2750 is especially bad about this, having many units with art and stats that do not match.)

skiltao

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #49 on: 12 August 2017, 22:36:54 »
I understand all the caveats that go with art.

However, half the point of the textbox is that modern Inner Sphere people wouldn't know every advanced-tech variant used by the Star League. And that's the whole point of writing the "Royals" backstory this way--records are fragmentary, which makes it easy to drop new variants (or whole new 'Mech designs) into new products as needed or desired.
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Ghostbear_Gurdel

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #50 on: 12 August 2017, 23:27:17 »
The Panther has always been one of my favorite lights mechs in 3025. I can use entire lances of just Panthers and Jenners :).

In light only lances the Panther has always worked well for me as the 'assualt' mech of the lance, using the PPC and heavy armor to both tank damage and return the favor, and for that i love it.
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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #51 on: 12 August 2017, 23:33:00 »
i doubt there was a royal variant, i don't think the Hegemony ever used them. but i could see the Combine having an advanced tech model during the 1st succession war. one that they had to stop making later. perhaps it too used Endosteel, only they stuck in an SRM6 instead of Artemis on a SRM4? not sure what else might have been done.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #52 on: 13 August 2017, 00:13:23 »
I agree it's a poor candidate for a royal variant, but re-using some prototypes as testbeds for new technology wouldn't be unreasonable.
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skiltao

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #53 on: 13 August 2017, 12:44:57 »
Given that there never has been any mention about a Royal (or even just Star League-era advanced) Panther

Oh, one more point of interest: TR:3025 describes the -8Z variant as "the last of the Star League Panthers" (emphasis mine). So additional Star League variants have at least been mentioned, even if TR:3039 would lump any such things together as "ancient -8Z prototypes."

i don't think the Hegemony ever used them.

If you have information about Star League use of the Panther, I'm sure it's appropriate to the thread. :)

I agree it's a poor candidate for a royal variant

How does one judge such a thing?
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Empyrus

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #54 on: 13 August 2017, 13:56:51 »
Oh, one more point of interest: TR:3025 describes the -8Z variant as "the last of the Star League Panthers" (emphasis mine). So additional Star League variants have at least been mentioned, even if TR:3039 would lump any such things together as "ancient -8Z prototypes."
Hmm, interesting. Gotta check TRO3025 and TRO3039 divergences and similarities someday.

I doubt there were advanced Panthers though. Generally speaking, latest variant is the most advanced, and if -8Z is that... well, that doesn't really leave space for an actual advanced Panther.
I gotta say i'm not sure what kind of Panther would be completely replaced by -8Z and then -9R.

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #55 on: 13 August 2017, 14:33:19 »
I wish updated one could be made for this upcoming are so were not stuck with these ugly duckling Panthers forever.
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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #56 on: 13 August 2017, 15:09:23 »
If you go back to the original TR3025, Its supposed to be

Large Laser Panther -> PPC Panther (8Z) - > PPC Panther (9R)

TR3025 states "The PNT-8Z, the last of the Star League Panther designs, differs from the 9R only in the more advanced communications equipment and smaller fire-control computer."

So the 9R and 8Z were originally the same, just with fluff differences. That would make the 8Z the last of the Star League Panther designs, and the first Star League Panther design the unnamed, original version with the Large Laser.

TR3039 changed this (knowingly or not), and made the 8Z the original Large Laser variant, and then there was the PPC version with more sophisticated fire control and communications suites, which the Combine downgraded to the standard. No idea if there was another designation or not.

Neither book really leaves any room open for other variants during the Star League.

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #57 on: 13 August 2017, 15:20:36 »
Well, at least the change isn't as bad and nonsensical as the Dragon one: Designed as a replacement for SHD-1R, lost to -2H, TRO3039 effectively changed that to "designed as a replacement for -2H, lost to -2Hb" (you don't say).

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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #58 on: 13 August 2017, 18:26:07 »
If you have information about Star League use of the Panther, I'm sure it's appropriate to the thread. :)

The master unit list indicates that the 8Z panther was widely used across the inner sphere and periphery, including the SLDF.

Quote
How does one judge such a thing?

At the time I wrote that, I was under the assumption that the SLDF never used the Panther in any significant quantity. Clearly I was mistaken.
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Re: Mech of the Week: PNT-** Panther
« Reply #59 on: 13 August 2017, 18:39:52 »
TR3039 changed this (knowingly or not), and made the 8Z the original Large Laser variant, and then there was the PPC version with more sophisticated fire control and communications suites, which the Combine downgraded to the standard. No idea if there was another designation or not.

Neither book really leaves any room open for other variants during the Star League.

The 3039 change, combined with the 9R being combine exclusive according to the MUL, suggests that the 9R was the original PPC version, but for whatever reason it wasn't accepted by the SLDF. The combine's downgrade might have been so minor that it wasn't worth a new designation (the stuff of design quirks, for example).

Alternately, maybe both are true and the initial run of PPC equipped Panthers shared a designation with the Large Laser version, only to be re-designated later. It would be an... unusual situation. I'm not certain there's precedence in the battletech universe.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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