Author Topic: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!  (Read 249886 times)

Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #570 on: 18 October 2017, 17:38:07 »
I suspect there's some "treaty compliance" going on there...

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #571 on: 18 October 2017, 19:29:09 »
We're building destroyers today that mass more than WWI Cruisers

In point of fact, a Zumwalt-class destroyer displaces as much as (or more than) a pre-dreadnought battleship of various classes...and almost as much as some early model battlecruisers or smaller dreadnought battleships, such as the Spanish España-class...

The Arleigh Burke-class destroyer (especially later models) almost displaces as much as an early pre-dreadnought battleship...

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #572 on: 19 October 2017, 05:23:26 »

An awful lot of what an ASW ship does is have a towed sonar array and a helicopter so with negligible to no loss of AAW capability the Arleigh Burkes can acquire that capability... but it does mean that calling them destroyers is even more ridiculous. They really should be reclassified as cruisers.

That is potentially the least accurate statement you could possibly make regarding an ASW platform. There is so much more that goes into ASW that I don't even know where to start. ASW ships must behave in a certain way, when under threat, that is, AAW ships also have to work a certain way while countering their primary threats. The two are not compatible at all, they are literally at extreme ends of the spectrum.

Conducting ASW on an Arleigh Burke ruins it's AAW capability, countering an AAW threat means it couldn't find a sea mount, let alone a submarine. Admittedly the USN doesn't really run any dedicated ASW platforms any more, so I guess they are stuck between a rock and a hard place, but giving an AAW platform the tools of an ASW platform does not mean it can do both, nor does it reduce the over all number of ships required, all it means is that you can have two of the same class conducting two very different roles in the task group. Even with this though, ASW platforms really need to be designed from the keel up to undertake ASW effectively, submarines just have too many advantages. The Arleigh Burkes are just all wrong for the mission, good training and excellent crews can mitigate some of the disadvantage, but not all of it.

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #573 on: 19 October 2017, 06:06:23 »
The USN has a superior ASW platform to the Burke anyhow. LA 688i Subs and the Virginia class (and the two Seawolfs)
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #574 on: 19 October 2017, 06:25:44 »
The USN has a superior ASW platform to the Burke anyhow. LA 688i Subs and the Virginia class (and the two Seawolfs)
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #575 on: 19 October 2017, 07:00:23 »
two Seawolfs?  What happen to the third one??? Jimmy Carter slightly modded but she still counts as a unit in the Class.
Yes but the Navy's official spy boat won't be doing ASW now would she.

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #576 on: 19 October 2017, 07:56:36 »
Yes but the Navy's official spy boat won't be doing ASW now would she.

You'd be amazed. I'd have trouble thinking of a better boat to properly gather intel on a new SSBN and its missile tests, for example.  ;)
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #577 on: 19 October 2017, 08:23:10 »
You'd be amazed. I'd have trouble thinking of a better boat to properly gather intel on a new SSBN and its missile tests, for example.  ;)
Perhaps, though I think the other boats are capable of doing that... up until a misplaced Jock aboard said SSBN says "Engage the caterpillar drive!" ;D

On that note. USS Texas entering a degaussing facility.



And a stunning photograph of USS... I'll let the experts have the fun of solving this ;D

« Last Edit: 19 October 2017, 08:25:04 by Kidd »

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #578 on: 19 October 2017, 08:32:38 »
That was easy. USS North Carolina (bow shape and funnel number is distinctive). Looks like very early in the war, due to lack of the hordes of Oerlikons and Bofors she was covered in later. Great shot of her!

Actually, now that I look, I don't see any 1.1-inch mounts either, must have already been removed due to being pieces of crap. (The mounts for two of them are faintly visible on each side just abaft of #2 gun mount, roughly abeam the conning tower)
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #579 on: 19 October 2017, 08:36:00 »
Let's try one of my own.

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #580 on: 19 October 2017, 09:08:57 »
Well, I was able to recognize it was German and WWI vintage before cheating... :)

I didn't know they stuck with the same turret style through both wars.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #581 on: 19 October 2017, 09:24:03 »
Almost carbon copies, in fact. Remember that from the end of the war up through to the late 1930s, Germany wasn't allowed to look into naval weapons larger than 11-inch. So when the Bismarck was started, it was either go with the modern 11-inch guns the Scharnhorst used (ye gods, no!) or go with the same style 15-inch used on Baden. So the Germans went with the old-style guns (which, being Krupp, were very high-quality and had the penetrating power of the British 16-inchers on the Nelson!), and started research into a larger 16-inch gun for the 'H'-class ships instead.

Something neat, in fact- much of Baden is copied onto the Bismarck when you break out the blueprints. If it ain't broke, don't fix it- Baden was a damned good ship, and the bigger, 20-year-later version didn't need to be too different in form (though obviously gaining 20,000 tons and two decades allowed for much higher speeds and thicker armor).
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #582 on: 19 October 2017, 14:25:35 »
My turn!



And the 1.1 inch mount wasn't THAT bad, sure its bad when you compair it to the 40mm bofors but then again so's everything.  It was superior to the IJN's 25mm gun and the German 37mm (which had to be singally loaded :s )
« Last Edit: 19 October 2017, 14:29:37 by marauder648 »
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #583 on: 19 October 2017, 14:28:31 »
Is that HMS Tiger?
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #584 on: 19 October 2017, 14:29:44 »
Definitely one of her class, if not Tiger herself it's a sister ship. That weird 'I wanna be a carrier but don't quite know how' stern shape is distinctive as hell.
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marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #585 on: 19 October 2017, 15:21:23 »
Bingo :) It the Tiger :)
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #586 on: 21 October 2017, 11:45:26 »


The French Protected Cruiser Cassar.

Also I found this rather fascinating study about the Battleship Bouvet and her capsizing of the Dardneles after hitting a mine.  What stood out is that she capsized between 40 - 50 seconds and some researchers wanted to know why she sunk so fast. 

And they found out.

http://www.shipstab.org/files/Proceedings/ISSW/ISSW_2014_Kuala_Lumpur_Malaysia/Papers/ISSW_2014_s3-p05.pdf
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #587 on: 21 October 2017, 12:02:42 »
Er....did they give a conclusion statement?
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #588 on: 21 October 2017, 12:04:12 »
Er....did they give a conclusion statement?

TLDR - Bouvets designers flubbed their maths and made sweeping assumptions. The speed of the capsize was also aided by the sharp sweep of her excessive tumblehome, as she listed, there was less ship pushing against the water and thus less boyancy.  Basically she was a death trap from the day she was launched.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #589 on: 21 October 2017, 12:45:10 »
Cassar looks like more a armed yacht than warship.  ;D
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #590 on: 22 October 2017, 05:12:40 »
I just finished reading the article. The English was... interesting... then I realised most of the authors were French.


Basically, the ship had bulkheads in the wrong places - they had them running the length of the ship but not enough across so the water all stayed on one side.


I'm not too clear on the design doctrine of the French pre-dreadnoughts, but all of the pre-dreadnoughts shared a feature that they generally had no more than 4 main guns, hence the ships look under-armed to our eyes and Dreadnought being so revolutionary by having 10 main guns.


I'm not sure about the damage control/prevention provision of Dreadnought and the other early ships like her but I suspect that there was some knowledge about the flaws in the underwater protections as so many of the pre-dreadnoughts were fitted with rams. There was a nasty incident with HMS Victoria in 1893.


Wikipedia link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victoria_(1887) and photo below
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #591 on: 22 October 2017, 08:36:37 »
I came across on less unfortunate submarines of the J-Class Submarines, the HMS J7 later knowns as HMAS J7.
She was a World War I commissioned Submarine that came into service later part of war in 1917.
During the war, she missed a lot opportunities to sink German vessels.'



After the war, six survivors of her class were transferred to the Australian Admiralty.
Prior to the transfer, a sister ship was sunk by accident its OWN navy...

While in service of Her Royal Highness's Australian Navy and eventually she was retired from service due to high maintenance and multiple failures to increase accommodations on board the ship by getting rid of some of it's tubes.  She was towed from Flinders Naval Depot, Crib Point, where she had served as a reserve source of electric power, on 4 December 1929.

However year later she was dismantled and sunk as  a breakwater Sandringham Yacht Club, Sandringham, Port Phillip Bay, where she surprisingly remains to this day. 

Lordy, i'm surrpise the environmental people didn't get on yacht yard's ownership about this thing.



 
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #592 on: 22 October 2017, 16:59:40 »
but all of the pre-dreadnoughts shared a feature that they generally had no more than 4 main guns, hence the ships look under-armed to our eyes and Dreadnought being so revolutionary by having 10 main guns.

Up until the late 1890s, naval battles were going to take place at around 2000-3000 yard ranges - very Napoleonic. Guns had poor accuracy and little fire control, and big guns took forever to reload. So you layer caked - some big guns, some medium guns, and some smaller guns, and just fired everything in the hope something hit.

Clever navies saw the importance of gunlaying, accuracy, and centralising fire control. Tsushima happened because the Japanese were paying attention to this in advance of actually having a battle, and the value of the middle-sized guns dropped dramatically.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #593 on: 22 October 2017, 17:09:06 »
The Australia is building up a nice advanced navy, in a short time. Good for them!
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #594 on: 24 October 2017, 03:29:35 »
I suspect there's some "treaty compliance" going on there...

Somewhere, somebody along the way decided "destroyers" were less offensive than "cruisers".  That seems to be one of the main driving forces behind everyone terming their latest ships destroyers, despite evidence to the contrary. I suspect it goes back to a time when destroyers really were significantly smaller than cruisers.

One thing that is different in the USN system, though, is that someone somewhere along the way decided USN cruisers were air defense first, other roles after, and that they had flag berths. As I recall, none of the Burke class have flag berths at all.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #595 on: 24 October 2017, 06:29:53 »
I've been very disappointed in the US Navy's developments of new ships.  It just hodge podge of designs that were thown up by Admirals who suddenly aren't around anymore to refine what they want.   SSN-21, DDG-1000, LCS were all part of some sort of new fleet concepts.
Due to budget problem, focus changes, nothing is getting made that's "New" except for some minor changes to existing designs.

While the rest of the world continues to make better designs while they know our designs inside-and-out.  Burke basic design is used world wide now, South Korea, Japan, while AEGIS is uses Europe, Australia, etc.   Still great designs and equipment, but time marches on.

We still can't kick out something new like a completely new cruiser/destroyer that can carry more than 100 tubes for the VLS. 

I wish Navy would get a plan concept and stick with it.  There would been a Cruiser sized vessel, mid-size frigate size and utility small warship that did odd jobs.  The LCS was only part of it that survived, but its differs from what it was suppose to be it. LCS doesn't work partially because it was part 3-part ship plan.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #596 on: 24 October 2017, 07:18:45 »
SSN-21 was a little bit different of a situation. It was started during the Cold War, designed as the best of the best to face off against the Soviets. After the Soviet Union fell, it was decided that the Navy could get 90% of the advanced tech at 75% of the cost in the Virginia Class (rough percentages to illustrate the point), well saving money & getting more subs was deemed worth it in an era without a top tier opponent with similar capabilities.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #597 on: 24 October 2017, 07:50:43 »
Also the Seawolf's were absurdly expensive, even by budgets of the time, and even though the PLAN is growing in strength and capabilities, they would still be in a LOT of trouble against 688i LA's.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #598 on: 24 October 2017, 08:19:33 »
Also the Seawolf's were absurdly expensive, even by budgets of the time, and even though the PLAN is growing in strength and capabilities, they would still be in a LOT of trouble against 688i LA's.

To be fair, the costs look higher since only three boats ended up completed, so the R&D costs are only split three ways instead of, oh, 40 or so the way it had been planned. But yeah, those were as deadly to the Navy's wallet as they are to enemy subs, no matter how you slice it. VERY good subs, probably the best on the water today even now, but no way in a post-Cold War world they were feasible.
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Re: Naval Pictures Forecastle: Laying siege to the poop deck!
« Reply #599 on: 24 October 2017, 12:28:43 »


The Italian King aboard the battleship Littorio.
« Last Edit: 24 October 2017, 12:31:17 by marauder648 »
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