Author Topic: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)  (Read 7121 times)

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #30 on: 27 August 2017, 12:03:02 »
While I agree in principle, giving everything a free (uncosted) skill upgrade that can be used after seeing dice results strikes me as... not the most balanced thing ever.

I agree with you as well. 1 heat for 1 damage or even half damage may be worth playtesting tho.  And generally, "spend heat to do X" in general is a neat idea that I think could result in some gems for AS.  I'm envisioning some outside the box kind of ideas, like perhaps spend a heat point during the movement phase to "pass" on a unit, saving that unit's move for later and making the other guy go move again.
« Last Edit: 27 August 2017, 12:06:47 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Scotty

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #31 on: 27 August 2017, 12:29:17 »
I'd probably keep it a little more mundane but still useful.  For example "Move an extra 2", then gain a point of Heat in the End Phase" or "Gain Multi-Tasker until the end of the turn, then gain a point of Heat in the End Phase".

Stuff like that.  Not entirely sure how to manage it, honestly.
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Ben

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #32 on: 27 August 2017, 16:46:48 »
Ok, this is pretty out there, but here it goes.

I enjoy playing AS, but generally only play it once a year at Gencon.  I'm one of those folks who  thinks it loses just a bit to much of the "mech degrading with damage" feel from TW. Rolling for criticals in AS always seems like "that extra roll you have to make before the next shot kills the mech".

So, my thought was to get rid of internal structure bubbles  entirely. Just making everything "armor". However, do something like every time a mech takes size+1 damage you check for crit. Alternatively, have the bubbles in groups (something like size+1 per group, or total bubbles divided by 5 per group). Then every time a group is fully crossed off, there is a chance for crit.

Basically, just trying to have crit rolls occur earlier/more often then on just the last few pips.

sadlerbw

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #33 on: 27 August 2017, 20:19:20 »
I get what you are saying, but would you agree that crits are much more of a thing in assaults and larger heavies with enough structure to matter? I definitely get the 'who cares about crits because I'm going to die next turn anyway' feel with most lights and a good number of mediums. Heavies and assaults? Not as much. I despise crits when I've got something like an atlas or a black knight without an XL engine. I've had an atlas with a fire control hit spend three or four turns trying to hobble into range to punch something before finally getting picked apart. It did get one decent kick in, but he was basically a bullet magnet for those last few turns.

Another issue that adds to that feeling, and which the game would be hard pressed to change, is focused fire. Quite often, your opponent will pile up as much fire as they can on one target till it dies. With the larger number of mechs in general in AS, that tends to mean you have mechs loose a bucket load of damage all at once and die without a chance to limp around wounded. Some stuff like special ammo or anti-mech infantry attacks make crits have more of an impact since they go through armor, but crits from structure hits do often become irrelevant because your opponent is more likely to have enough firepower to burn you down in one turn. The same thing can happen in Total Warfare, we just don't see as many 12v12 games to notice.

William J. Pennington

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #34 on: 27 August 2017, 22:05:24 »
While I agree in principle, giving everything a free (uncosted) skill upgrade that can be used after seeing dice results strikes me as... not the most balanced thing ever.

Turning a rolled miss into a hit fopr just aheat point..yeah, that is powerful. Hard to explain mechs that cant heat having it..and would sort of push everyone to field Mechs that can overheat to take advantage of it if it was only allowed to Mecvhs with an overheat capacity.

But spending heat to do other things...sounds cool. Though that falls into the realms of giving units abilities that don't exist in Battletech. Which in many ways I"m not opposed to, but I wouldn't dare assume that would fly in general.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #35 on: 27 August 2017, 23:05:57 »
...
But spending heat to do other things...sounds cool. Though that falls into the realms of giving units abilities that don't exist in Battletech. Which in many ways I"m not opposed to, but I wouldn't dare assume that would fly in general.


I'm actually quite down with that.  Heat is an abstracted thing in CBT/Boardgame Battletech anyway... thermal radiation is only a part of the whole covered by the game abstract of "heat".

In AS Heat is a way (for some units) to modify the rules about damage dealing.  I'm completely open to Heat being a way to modify other rules as well.  Perhaps to hit rolls, as discussed (although it'd need to be carefully done to stay balanced).  I thought out loud about using heat to modify the movement sequence upthread.  I can also see a rule where you spend a heat point to be able to modify a crit roll up or down 1. (maybe also too powerful, but I like the idea in general).  I'm in a happy place where I'm thinking about virtually every AS rule, and thinking about ways the rule might be "bendable" by spending a heat point.

The net result of all that is of course that units that CAN climb the heat scale get lots of advantages over those that don't... but I'm ok with a game where a Mech has advantages over a tank or infantry.

William J. Pennington

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #36 on: 27 August 2017, 23:40:32 »
One could justify any mech increasing damage by heating. More energy is pumped into weapon systems--firing energy weapons more. even non energy weapons could be represented as being pushed to the limit. The heat reflects the mech expending power to increase the ROF, supercharge loading systems--or removing heat away from crucial areas of the gun in question so ammo doesn't cook off in the barrel/launcher whihc is beign pushed beyond its design limitations--ie, the weapon is kept at a safe temperature during the enhanced firing, but the mech itself has heat build up shunted elsewhere, at a penalty due to inefficiency.

This could be at a 2 points of heat per one extra damage --so mechs with the overheat ability don't lose an advantage paid for in their design--and still allow those mechs to do the extra 2 heat for +1 damage if they like. Done before the dice roll of course.

If unlinked from a CBT explanation, trading heat for movement, for a buffed TMM, increasing some electronic ability or counter electronics could be options.

Hmm, maybe an evasive manuever that treats damage as a glancing blow from physical combat (1/2 damage)?


Achtung Minen!

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #37 on: 27 August 2017, 23:52:41 »
While I agree in principle, giving everything a free (uncosted) skill upgrade that can be used after seeing dice results strikes me as... not the most balanced thing ever.

That's fine, but I have to say, it has been working great at my table for a year or two now! Basically it just speeds up the game for us. Of course, none of us is a "competitive" type of player... YMMV with your gaming group.

sadlerbw

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #38 on: 28 August 2017, 13:17:41 »
This is a bit meta, but I don't know if I want to 'complicate' the base AS rules with more optional ways to use heat. I'd MAYBE be open to it as an advanced or optional rule, but I think base AS is in a good place right now. It's fast, has a decent number of tactical options, but doesn't have too many fiddly corner cases to remember. I like the rules light and tight, and have very serious misgivings about following the Total Warfare path of ending up with a rule for everything. Also, heat is one of the ways mechs feel a bit different from each other. Adding more ways for non-OV mechs to use heat might possibly make mechs feel even less different from each other than they can now.

In my opinion, one of TW's problems is that it has too many published rules. Sure a bunch of them are advanced or optional, but they still manage to confuse the heck out of players both new and old! My opinion is that there is a TON of stuff that should have been left to the realm of people's house rules and not codified at all. I really, REALLY don't want to see the game slow down very much, or get any more published optional rules than it has now. The fact that so many people have been able to easily house-rule some stuff to make it more fun for them suggests to me that the core rules are in a pretty good place. They are providing a solid system that people can easily tweak to get it playing the way they prefer without telling them exactly how they should do it.

Lord knows we make our own house rules and adjustments to many of the games we play in my house, but I'd be hard pressed to say ANY of the house rules we use need to be added to the base games. They are really only to make our one little group happy, and not something I could really say that the game as whole needed.

Son of Kerenski

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #39 on: 29 August 2017, 17:22:41 »

3) Units standing in water that take damage from an attack that damages structure take an additional critical hit, to represent flooding breached sections.

I asked that question months ago and didnt recieve a satisfactory answer on it. So much so that the other person I play against regularly has asked the question again askung for more clarification.

But thats the way we always played it before too. Crit check if there is structure damage at the end of the turn.

Scotty

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #40 on: 29 August 2017, 18:00:53 »
Well, if by "satisfactory" you mean "works they way you wanted it to", then I am not surprised.  It's in the thread for hypothetical rules changes for a reason.
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Son of Kerenski

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #41 on: 29 August 2017, 18:39:31 »
Its a huge glaring omission that im surprised didnt come up in the games original playtesting.

Baffling really.

Scotty

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #42 on: 29 August 2017, 18:44:09 »
It's important to keep in mind that the original writers disagreeing with you does not constitute a glaring omission.  I, personally, happen to agree with you in principle that staying in water should have a downside relating to critical hit effects.

That doesn't make the current lackthereof a mistake.
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Son of Kerenski

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #43 on: 30 August 2017, 00:17:26 »
If something common that comes up frequently during the course of play isnt covered by a rule then its an ommission. No matter how you spin it. Theres rules for it in TW and its not overly complicated.

And despite you agreeing with me in principle, your tone comes off as somewhat condesceding towards me in your posts. Id appreciate it if you didnt seeing as we are on the same side. Not every one agrees with the writers. In fact ive already been responsible correcting a fairly major rule in TW regarding jumping that had a glaring ommission. So i know what they look like.

If the writers got it right first go then there wouldnt be a need for errata. Fact.
« Last Edit: 30 August 2017, 05:48:47 by Son of Kerenski »

SC_Dave

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #44 on: 30 August 2017, 05:03:55 »
It's important to keep in mind that the original writers disagreeing with you does not constitute a glaring omission.

I would be the person Son of Kerenski is referring to that sought further clarification (answer still pending). The issue came up when on a whim I decided to set up a game that featured a coastal inlet as part of the terrain.

Son of Kerenski mentioned a house rule he had been using with other persons to me. We decided not to use the house rule in the game I played with him and I sought an answer to the issue from the writers after our game. Rather than explain the issue we think hasn't been covered again here, I will simply direct you to the thread:

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=57977.0

If you read it perhaps you will understand that it's not that we disagree with the writers, just something that hasn't been fully explained.


nckestrel

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #45 on: 30 August 2017, 05:26:37 »
I quit answering AS rules question, burned out after years of volunteering.  The rules team has added some new members and they're working on getting the process down and catching up on old questions.
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SC_Dave

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #46 on: 30 August 2017, 05:32:59 »
I quit answering AS rules question, burned out after years of volunteering.  The rules team has added some new members and they're working on getting the process down and catching up on old questions.

Thanks for an explanation as to the delay in an answer. I thought it might have been one of those ones that had to get passed up the chain of command & delayed by GenCon prep etc.

Enjoy your "retirement"! You were very helpful in answering a number of AS questions for me and I thank you for your efforts. (If I knew how to put a clapping smiley in here I would.)

NeonKnight

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #47 on: 30 August 2017, 06:51:24 »
I quit answering AS rules question, burned out after years of volunteering.  The rules team has added some new members and they're working on getting the process down and catching up on old questions.

That's a shame. I may have not always agreed 100% with your answers, but I always respected you and the answers.
AGENT #575, Vancouver Canada

nckestrel

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Re: Alpha Strike Rules change ideas (was Re: Alpha Strike at GenCon)
« Reply #48 on: 30 August 2017, 08:34:54 »
Now you can respect me and not have to deal with my answers :).
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