Author Topic: A few thoughts on partial wings.  (Read 1938 times)

Sockmonkey

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A few thoughts on partial wings.
« on: 10 October 2017, 14:38:27 »
A lot of the BT artwork out there shows mechs bearing partial wings that look like nothing more than aircraft wings stuck on a mech's shoulders.
Aside from looking a bit silly, it's also hideously impractical.
I have an interest in aircraft design, particularly the real oddballs. So after poking around a bit, here's my take on what mech PWs would actually look like and how they would work.
Take a look at the photo compilation here.

Using a circular or shield-shaped wing lets you gain a huge amount of lift from a relatively small wing at a high angle of attack.
It's also quite draggy when using it that way but a mech isn't going that fast in aircraft terms anyway.
Another way to get high lift at low speeds is a fanwing arrangement where the whole wing has air blowing over it.
Also not that efficient but that's not a problem for this purpose here.
So in my head, a PW would look less like an aircraft wing and more like a heater shield with electrically-driven blowers mounted on the mech's back or shoulders.
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RoundTop

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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #1 on: 10 October 2017, 15:17:56 »
the one thing a "traditional" wing does vs these wings is it increases control surfaces relative to wing area.

maybe the partial wing allows jump jets to be used more efficiently, using the control surfaces, rather than stabilizing using balanced jet forces
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Sockmonkey

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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #2 on: 10 October 2017, 15:54:10 »
What I'm getting at is that a lifting surface can create a lot of lift even without a large span.
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grimlock1

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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #3 on: 10 October 2017, 17:22:10 »
What I'm getting at is that a lifting surface can create a lot of lift even without a large span.
At the low speeds involved, I expect that you would need to get as much airflow on the wing as possible.  That would be harder using compact wing like you describe, than it would be high or even moderate aspect ratio wing.

Mounting a number of low aspect wings/winglets on the shoulders, arms, hips and legs could provide similar lift, but smaller footprint
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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #4 on: 11 October 2017, 08:02:08 »
What is that last design in the second row? Some sort of parachute?
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klarg1

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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #5 on: 11 October 2017, 08:39:37 »
What I'm getting at is that a lifting surface can create a lot of lift even without a large span.

Would that favor something like the massive sensor plane on top of the MUSE Wind rifleman? Raised up a bit, it might not be not all that far off from your real-world shield shape.


Sockmonkey

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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #6 on: 11 October 2017, 08:53:36 »
At the low speeds involved, I expect that you would need to get as much airflow on the wing as possible.  That would be harder using compact wing like you describe, than it would be high or even moderate aspect ratio wing.

Mounting a number of low aspect wings/winglets on the shoulders, arms, hips and legs could provide similar lift, but smaller footprint
At a high angle of attack a low-aspect circular or Zimmerman type wing uses vortex lift rather than area lift like a conventional wing. It works very well for low-speed takeoffs. It does require a high thrust-to-weight ratio which mech JJs easily provide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_V-173
https://disciplesofflight.com/nemeth-parasol-strange-aircraft/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIFyBU83kME
As you can see in the video, the Nemeth wing has very short takeoff and landing run.
The V-173 could take off vertically if there was a mild headwind.
Adding blower vents to increase the airflow over a PW would be no problem.
What is that last design in the second row? Some sort of parachute?
It's a quick mock-up I did of what I think the wing would be shaped like.
Would that favor something like the massive sensor plane on top of the MUSE Wind rifleman? Raised up a bit, it might not be not all that far off from your real-world shield shape.


It could, yes. IIRC the radar disk on the E-2 Hawkeye offsets it's own weight by generating some lift.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #7 on: 11 October 2017, 09:06:54 »
Part of the problem here is that while you're right in terms of creating lift, there's a fundamental problem you're missing.

Battlemechs aren't aerodynamic. Like, at all.

Even the most curved of them, like the Wraith, is a 55-ton wad of vertical metal. Limbs and such all over the place, and as I said, standing vertical- which means during a jump the main form of the unit is creating a huge amount of drag. (The same issue would be true to a lesser extent in LAMs, in which the main body at least is now flush with the travel direction and thus not creating as much drag, but still suffers the limb problem)

So while a form like the Flying Pancake would theoretically be more efficient for lift, from a flight standpoint it's six of one, half dozen of the other- neither that shape nor that of a Shrike's wing would create enough lift to truly make a major difference in the flight characteristics of a Battlemech. If it's not going to really matter, might as well make it look good, right? (And far be it from me to tell the Jade Falcons that their designs look silly, after all- their reactions to being called out for silliness tend to be a little... pissy.)

At the end of the day, yeah, you're absolutely right about the shapes when it comes to aerodynamics of an actual aircraft- in the case of the Flying Pancake, you have a lifting-body, in which the body forms the lift surface, which is always the most efficient form of lift (the B-2 is a very different-shaped but apt example as well). Here though, it's the equivalent of asking if a spoiler will help the performance of a Toyota Camry- yeah, I mean it can't hurt the cause, but it's not really going to help either.  ;)
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Luciora

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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #8 on: 11 October 2017, 10:02:18 »
 Come on, we all know speed, fuel efficiency and even drag are improved by a red paint job and lots of stickers of pop culture or car related stuff.

Sockmonkey

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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #9 on: 11 October 2017, 10:43:05 »
Part of the problem here is that while you're right in terms of creating lift, there's a fundamental problem you're missing.

Battlemechs aren't aerodynamic. Like, at all.

Even the most curved of them, like the Wraith, is a 55-ton wad of vertical metal. Limbs and such all over the place, and as I said, standing vertical- which means during a jump the main form of the unit is creating a huge amount of drag. (The same issue would be true to a lesser extent in LAMs, in which the main body at least is now flush with the travel direction and thus not creating as much drag, but still suffers the limb problem)

So while a form like the Flying Pancake would theoretically be more efficient for lift, from a flight standpoint it's six of one, half dozen of the other- neither that shape nor that of a Shrike's wing would create enough lift to truly make a major difference in the flight characteristics of a Battlemech. If it's not going to really matter, might as well make it look good, right? (And far be it from me to tell the Jade Falcons that their designs look silly, after all- their reactions to being called out for silliness tend to be a little... pissy.)

At the end of the day, yeah, you're absolutely right about the shapes when it comes to aerodynamics of an actual aircraft- in the case of the Flying Pancake, you have a lifting-body, in which the body forms the lift surface, which is always the most efficient form of lift (the B-2 is a very different-shaped but apt example as well). Here though, it's the equivalent of asking if a spoiler will help the performance of a Toyota Camry- yeah, I mean it can't hurt the cause, but it's not really going to help either.  ;)
While all good points, there are a few compensating factors.
Even the fastest mechs aren't all that quick compared to a single engine two-seat plane like a Piper Cub, and they aren't traveling long distances.
Secondly, as long as the airflow over the top of the wing is unobstructed, having a draggy body hanging below it isn't going to affect it's lifting ability. It will effect speed and efficiency of course, but those aren't major issues for a mech jump. It's more akin to jet-assisted parachuting than flying.
That Rifleman picture with the sensor disk on top would be a pretty good example of what a low-aspect PW should look like if it were enlarged a bit, tilted up, and moved back a bit to rest on the shoulders.
You are correct in pointing out that mechs in general tell physics to go suck sand.
However, when you bend the laws of mass just enough to allow mechs this size to function, you have enough leeway for a low-aspect PW like this to work.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #10 on: 11 October 2017, 11:14:47 »
Come on, we all know speed, fuel efficiency and even drag are improved by a red paint job and lots of stickers of pop culture or car related stuff.

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Sockmonkey

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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #11 on: 11 October 2017, 11:24:17 »
Also the 8-ball on the gearshift.

We may be headed for an episode of "pimp my mech" and that way lies madness.
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Istal_Devalis

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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #12 on: 11 October 2017, 12:37:26 »
We're talking 2 story tall bipedal war machines, and the wings are the impractical part? :D

Sockmonkey

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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #13 on: 11 October 2017, 16:08:17 »
We're talking 2 story tall bipedal war machines, and the wings are the impractical part? :D
Yes. Yes they are. ;D
Seriously though, when you picture a mech trying to walk through a wooded hex or down a street between buildings, you can see the reasoning behind a more compact PW.
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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #14 on: 11 October 2017, 16:29:49 »
honestly, IMO partial wings are less about lift, and more about control.. a standard jumpjet arc would be see the mech arc up fairly gently on the lift portion, since it is supported by thrust.. then fall almost directly downwards after jets cut out for the return to the ground, with just enough thrust used at the end to avoid a crash. partial wings let you steer better while jumping.. getting you a more effective initial lifting arc, and then a touch more horizontal distance as you fall.

i think that if they were generating any notable lift you'd be seeing a much bigger increase in the jump distance, since you'd be gliding.

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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #15 on: 11 October 2017, 17:18:46 »
So partial wings are actually designed to increase drag during the descent phase? Or are we seeing a flap-like effect, where lift is generated at the expense of severe drag?

Could we replicate the effect with drag chute dispensers?
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Sockmonkey

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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #16 on: 11 October 2017, 19:33:23 »
honestly, IMO partial wings are less about lift, and more about control.. a standard jumpjet arc would be see the mech arc up fairly gently on the lift portion, since it is supported by thrust.. then fall almost directly downwards after jets cut out for the return to the ground, with just enough thrust used at the end to avoid a crash. partial wings let you steer better while jumping.. getting you a more effective initial lifting arc, and then a touch more horizontal distance as you fall.

i think that if they were generating any notable lift you'd be seeing a much bigger increase in the jump distance, since you'd be gliding.
Gliding would require a much larger wing, or a much higher speed, both of which are impractical in this application. A low-aspect circular or delta wing at high AOA generates lift in a totally different way than a conventional straight wing flying level.
I've done my homework on this one.
http://www.nestofdragons.net/weird-airplanes/low-aspect-ratio/
So partial wings are actually designed to increase drag during the descent phase? Or are we seeing a flap-like effect, where lift is generated at the expense of severe drag?

Could we replicate the effect with drag chute dispensers?
It's a flap-like effect. Very draggy, but also very lifty.
Drag chutes probably could do it as well, but re-stowing them would be a problem limiting them to a one-shot increase in jump distance.
Still might be worth it though.
Imagine an assault mech just dropping out of nowhere right into the middle of your lance.
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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #17 on: 11 October 2017, 20:55:15 »
I figure they work by pushing the glide ratio from 'dump truck' to 'wingless pigeon' and give it at least a little bit of extra forward motion.
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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #18 on: 13 October 2017, 08:34:45 »
Gliding would require a much larger wing, or a much higher speed, both of which are impractical in this application. A low-aspect circular or delta wing at high AOA generates lift in a totally different way than a conventional straight wing flying level.
I've done my homework on this one.
http://www.nestofdragons.net/weird-airplanes/low-aspect-ratio/It's a flap-like effect. Very draggy, but also very lifty.
Drag chutes probably could do it as well, but re-stowing them would be a problem limiting them to a one-shot increase in jump distance.
Still might be worth it though.
Imagine an assault mech just dropping out of nowhere right into the middle of your lance.

I suppose that makes sense. Since the default flight path would be "plummet like a brick", a wing mounted more or less parallel to the ground would have an extremely steep angle of attack. Is that what you are getting at? That would make some sense, but you'd have to convince the relevant artists to add in a round wing, rather than a more conventional looking span.

Sockmonkey

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Re: A few thoughts on partial wings.
« Reply #19 on: 17 October 2017, 15:18:51 »
The art work has never been totally consistent with what the mechs can do or how things should be shaped anyhow. You can get a similar vortex lift effect from a sharp delta wing if something round or shield-shaped isn't to your tastes.
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