Author Topic: Cherries & Lemons?  (Read 12852 times)

Sir Chaos

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #60 on: 08 December 2017, 13:05:12 »
No society in a genuine war worries about cost

Of course they do. Big time. Well, the smart ones at least.

Not in the sense of wondering whether or not to spend the money they need to spend to win the war, but in the sense of getting the most bang out of their buck.

Take, for example, Nazi Germany building expensive, maintenance-intensive masterworks of engineering (Panzer IV, Panther, Tiger and so on), versus the Soviet Union spamming buttloads of cheap, reliable "good enough for the job" designs (mainly the T-34). How much does it matter if the tanks you build can take on two or three enemy tanks at the same time and win, when your enemy builds tanks so cheaply that he can field ten tanks for every one of yours?

All else being equal, the side that can produce a bigger bang for their available bucks than the enemy can for their respective available bucks tends to win the war.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #61 on: 08 December 2017, 13:14:16 »
The BTU has arbitrarily small armies, preventing the T-34/Sherman tactic of building five times as many tanks as your opponent and winning simply through flooding the battlefield.
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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #62 on: 08 December 2017, 13:17:24 »
The BTU has arbitrarily small armies, preventing the T-34/Sherman tactic of building five times as many tanks as your opponent and winning simply through flooding the battlefield.

Though it has been tried, see: Mercer Ravannion.

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Sir Chaos

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #63 on: 08 December 2017, 13:54:52 »
The BTU has arbitrarily small armies, preventing the T-34/Sherman tactic of building five times as many tanks as your opponent and winning simply through flooding the battlefield.

But the FedCom *can* field a mediocre RCT that´ll wipe the floor with even the most elite Clan frontline cluster.
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CDAT

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #64 on: 08 December 2017, 16:04:50 »
Of course they do. Big time. Well, the smart ones at least.

Not in the sense of wondering whether or not to spend the money they need to spend to win the war, but in the sense of getting the most bang out of their buck.

Take, for example, Nazi Germany building expensive, maintenance-intensive masterworks of engineering (Panzer IV, Panther, Tiger and so on), versus the Soviet Union spamming buttloads of cheap, reliable "good enough for the job" designs (mainly the T-34). How much does it matter if the tanks you build can take on two or three enemy tanks at the same time and win, when your enemy builds tanks so cheaply that he can field ten tanks for every one of yours?

All else being equal, the side that can produce a bigger bang for their available bucks than the enemy can for their respective available bucks tends to win the war.
This is also not apples to apples, the Soviet Union could only do this because the US was providing most of the other equipment that they needed. If that had not happened then from almost every reading I have done it if thought that they would have fallen to the better equipment of the Germans, as they could not build enough tanks at the same time they were building the trucks and stuff that they needed.

Sir Chaos

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #65 on: 08 December 2017, 16:17:52 »
This is also not apples to apples, the Soviet Union could only do this because the US was providing most of the other equipment that they needed. If that had not happened then from almost every reading I have done it if thought that they would have fallen to the better equipment of the Germans, as they could not build enough tanks at the same time they were building the trucks and stuff that they needed.

The point is, had the Germans built a T-34 equivalent (and gone to similar levels of simplicity in other areas), or had the Soviets built tanks like the Panther and Tiger and Elephant, things would have looked very different.


Back to a BT analogy...

I can acquire a Cluster´s worth of Clan OmniMechs (45 in three trinaries), which (assuming Clan tech to cost 3 times list price) will cost me 2 billion C-Bills or so for a decent mix of weight classes.
Or I can buy two regiments of 3025 era Mechs for about 1.25 billion, 6 regiments of cheap vehicles for 500 million and 10 regiments of infantry (with a good mix of types and armaments) with basic APCs for 250 million. That gives me two RCTs, which together are going to unceremoniously wipe the floor with that Cluster, no matter how badass those clanners are individually.
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CDAT

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #66 on: 08 December 2017, 18:21:35 »
The point is, had the Germans built a T-34 equivalent (and gone to similar levels of simplicity in other areas), or had the Soviets built tanks like the Panther and Tiger and Elephant, things would have looked very different.
Now I am not saying that the Germans could not have made better decisions, and I am not saying that the T-34 was not a good tank for the time, but had the Russians not had all the support from the other Allies they would have lost even with the poor decisions that the Germans made, and the poor decisions that the Russians were making would have made it even worse. If the Russians had tried to make tanks like the Panther, Tiger and Elephant than I think (partly at least based on my reading) it would have gone very bad for them. One reason from several of the different books I have read they talk about how lots of the Russian equipment including tanks were only built for at most one battle some were worn out before one battle was done, it was just they made so many, now if you were trying to fight "quality" with "quality" but were turning out junk that does not work well for you.

Back to a BT analogy...

I can acquire a Cluster´s worth of Clan OmniMechs (45 in three trinaries), which (assuming Clan tech to cost 3 times list price) will cost me 2 billion C-Bills or so for a decent mix of weight classes.
Or I can buy two regiments of 3025 era Mechs for about 1.25 billion, 6 regiments of cheap vehicles for 500 million and 10 regiments of infantry (with a good mix of types and armaments) with basic APCs for 250 million. That gives me two RCTs, which together are going to unceremoniously wipe the floor with that Cluster, no matter how badass those clanners are individually.
Two things I see here, first you are right that the IS should have just walked over the Clans based only on numbers, I can not think of a "fair" fight between Clan and Inner Sphere where the Clan based on table top game rules stand a chance, they just do not have the armor. Yes the amount of blood that would be spilled on the IS side is going to be massive but they will carry the day. The second issue that I see is that the Clan does not pay a premium for clan tech as that is standard tech for them so you are rendering your argument mute. With that in mind you get one cluster of Clan OmniMechs for about 650,000 or so, and on the other side the IS gets about one regiment of 3025 mech. So no RCT, no support forces (unless you cut the number of mechs), will it be enough to win? I still say yes, but it will be a bloody battle and it will come down to the amount of armor on the IS side (more mechs more armor even if less per mech).

Now if we were talking real world ranges and real world tech advancement I would bet on the Clans in the above fight but that does not follow the rules as written or even intended. It is a game first and formost.  }:)


Sir Chaos

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #67 on: 09 December 2017, 09:55:01 »
Now I am not saying that the Germans could not have made better decisions, and I am not saying that the T-34 was not a good tank for the time, but had the Russians not had all the support from the other Allies they would have lost even with the poor decisions that the Germans made, and the poor decisions that the Russians were making would have made it even worse. If the Russians had tried to make tanks like the Panther, Tiger and Elephant than I think (partly at least based on my reading) it would have gone very bad for them. One reason from several of the different books I have read they talk about how lots of the Russian equipment including tanks were only built for at most one battle some were worn out before one battle was done, it was just they made so many, now if you were trying to fight "quality" with "quality" but were turning out junk that does not work well for you.

Oh, I completely agree here. The Russians played to their own strengths, such as they were, and refrained from trying to match the Germans in their strengths. As Stalin reportedly said: "Quantity has a quality all of its own."

Quote
Two things I see here, first you are right that the IS should have just walked over the Clans based only on numbers, I can not think of a "fair" fight between Clan and Inner Sphere where the Clan based on table top game rules stand a chance, they just do not have the armor. Yes the amount of blood that would be spilled on the IS side is going to be massive but they will carry the day. The second issue that I see is that the Clan does not pay a premium for clan tech as that is standard tech for them so you are rendering your argument mute. With that in mind you get one cluster of Clan OmniMechs for about 650,000 or so, and on the other side the IS gets about one regiment of 3025 mech. So no RCT, no support forces (unless you cut the number of mechs), will it be enough to win? I still say yes, but it will be a bloody battle and it will come down to the amount of armor on the IS side (more mechs more armor even if less per mech).

Now if we were talking real world ranges and real world tech advancement I would bet on the Clans in the above fight but that does not follow the rules as written or even intended. It is a game first and formost.  }:)

My point was, even in war, money (or whatever other resource you choose) is still a bottleneck. You have only so much money to buy mech/tanks/infantry, or only so much steel, or so much rubber, or so much manpower, or whatever the critical resource is. So you´re going to optimize how you spend that resource.

The Inner Sphere´s constraining resource is the capacity to produce highly sophisticated military equipment (such as mech and fusion-powered vehicles), which is abstracted in C-Bills available to purchase units. So it makes sense to acquire boatloads of cheap and individually not particularly capable units (ICE-powered vehicles and infantry), backed up by more modest numbers of moderately capable units (3025-era Mech or even the cheaper (standard-engined) upgrades and 3050s/3060s era models). That will be hard on your manpower, but the Successor States have more manpower than they know what to do with.

The Clans´ constraining resource is the capacity for churning out trained combat personnel. Those personnel are individually extremely capable, but there are not very many of them, so it makes sense to spend lavishly in terms of C-Bills to give each of these rare and extremely capable personnel the most powerful unit available to maximize the effect they will have on the battlefield.

Even if we restrict things just to Mechs and assume the Clans pay no mark-up for their own equipment, that three-trinary cluster should work out to 700 million C-Bills or so, for which I can get a reinforced regiment of 3025 mechs, 140-ish units strong (I´m assuming, out of laziness, that the respective per-unit price average out to those of the Mad Dog for Clans and the Rifleman for the IS).

And you are right, the IS is going to win this one, even though it´s going to be bloody. The Clans succeeded (as far as they did) during their invasion because they did not spend the same amount of money as the IS. They spent, as I said above, MORE money to get the most out of what they had the least of - trained personnel. They could, for example, field 3 clusters to defeat an RCT; they´d spend 2 billion C-Bills, which they have plenty of, to the IS´ 1 billion or so. This allowed them to defeat an RCT of 6,000 or so combat personnel with 135 combat personnel of their own, meaning they spent a minimum amount of what they were the most short on - manpower.

To go back to the WW2 example - Russia went with the IS side of the equation, Germany with the Clan side. Germany´s problem was, among several others, that with the support of the US, Russia was no longer so inferior in military production capacity that Germany could have afforded building enough complex over-engineered tanks to deal with Russia´s output of cheap more-or-less-adequate tanks.
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Col Toda

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #68 on: 10 December 2017, 07:08:17 »
When the Clan invasion Era started the initial response was to drown them in cheap combat vehicles . The counter response was to ret-con and produce the Hell's Horses as FASA discovered that was  the most quickly implemented counter to a qualitative edge is a quantitative one. Once the Hell's Horses were introduced most canon victory was storytelling and writer's licence . But of the combats that it was not . The Clans lost do to attrition and logistics. Look at the standard Clan deployment gave very limited amno and replacement armor to all there units . They were so accustomed to batcal trials and Omni tech that some of the early designs with 2 ammo types like LBX cannons only had 1 ton of ammo thus eliminating the tactical flexibility of the weapon . Sure they fixed that in later models but it bit them in the ass early on .  The Clans do adapt so they survive but too slowly for universal success.
So to go back on topic Lemons Clan LB-X and ATM mechs with only one ton of ammo dedication for the weapon . Yes they exist look them up.
« Last Edit: 10 December 2017, 07:14:12 by Col Toda »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #69 on: 10 December 2017, 10:54:25 »
When the Clan invasion Era started the initial response was to drown them in cheap combat vehicles . The counter response was to ret-con and produce the Hell's Horses as FASA discovered that was  the most quickly implemented counter to a qualitative edge is a quantitative one. Once the Hell's Horses were introduced most canon victory was storytelling and writer's licence.

Cite?
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Col Toda

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #70 on: 10 December 2017, 16:10:44 »
My last post was a : as memory serves . Playing battletech with some of the writers during the FASA days

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #71 on: 10 December 2017, 16:14:20 »
Are you sure you're not mixing up Clan Hell's Horses with Clan Protomechs?
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Col Toda

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #72 on: 10 December 2017, 16:31:48 »
Clan Hells Horses used combat vehicles as well as mechs . Early proto mechs had the same problem of any new unit in the game of no well developed tactical doctrine to go with them . So the effect of their introduction was blunted as people using mechs and vehicles that knew how best to use them. That changed but it literally took years for proto mechs to amount to anything in the game but it did happen . My first post about any weapon or platform thereof is a cherry . If do not how best to use a tool you constantly are putting square pegs in round holes

Dark Jackal

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #73 on: 11 December 2017, 11:44:18 »
I would be inclined to call IS medium

The IS Medium Laser is the most heat efficient laser in the game. You could technically out DPS someone if you boated only IS Mediums and just have to worry about putting yourself in good roll ranges. Also, they're a lot easier to mount on ICE equipped units if you're into theory crafting and design.

Dark Jackal

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #74 on: 11 December 2017, 11:50:36 »
My Biggest Lemon, (OS) or One-Shot rules that adds 0.5 tons to the base weapon system with no benefit and essentially part of the game that is dead on arrival. For it to be a usable it should remove half the weight of the weapon system for 1 shot and makes a lot more sense than where it currently sits unchanged for a long time. Doing this would make it usable in the rules and fit a gap in the Fluff between primitive rockets back in the Terran Alliance hey day and the return of rockets post 3065.

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #75 on: 12 December 2017, 07:56:58 »
The worst lemon I can think of is the SRM-6. Fifteen salvos gets you  ninety rounds, while every other gives you one hundred. In theory, we should have at least sixteen salvos. I'd elaborate and say sixteen salvos and a single SRM-4 burst!

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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #76 on: 12 December 2017, 09:59:27 »
My Biggest Lemon, (OS) or One-Shot rules that adds 0.5 tons to the base weapon system with no benefit and essentially part of the game that is dead on arrival. For it to be a usable it should remove half the weight of the weapon system for 1 shot and makes a lot more sense than where it currently sits unchanged for a long time. Doing this would make it usable in the rules and fit a gap in the Fluff between primitive rockets back in the Terran Alliance hey day and the return of rockets post 3065.

Oh totally. Always hated that. It's especially heinous on designs that then insist on packing two one-shot launchers, like the War Dog. Might as well have just brought the ammo- unless you're that paranoid about ammo explosions (and a War Dog has a GAUSS RIFLE already!), or you just don't have a spare crit (in which case, did you really need Streak-2 launchers anyway?), this is just ridiculous. I'd meet you halfway and just say it's the launcher weight straight-up, missiles are in the tube- no half ton added or removed (so a one-shot Streak-2 weights 1.5 tons in that case).

It's still a bad weapon to ever consider, but at least it's not AS bad.

Actually, has anything ever mounted a one-shot LRM in canon? We've seen SRMs a few times like on the War Dog, Grand Titan, and Quickdraw, but I can't think of ever having seen an LRM.
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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #77 on: 12 December 2017, 10:13:52 »
The worst lemon I can think of is the SRM-6. Fifteen salvos gets you  ninety rounds, while every other gives you one hundred. In theory, we should have at least sixteen salvos. I'd elaborate and say sixteen salvos and a single SRM-4 burst!

TT

Well, the AC-2 gives you 45 shots per ton (90 damage), every other (normal ammo) AC has 100 damage. Plus it's an AC-2.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #78 on: 12 December 2017, 12:37:42 »
The worst lemon I can think of is the SRM-6. Fifteen salvos gets you  ninety rounds, while every other gives you one hundred. In theory, we should have at least sixteen salvos. I'd elaborate and say sixteen salvos and a single SRM-4 burst!

TT

That would bother me if it weren't so hard to survive long enough to burn through an entire ton of SRM 6 ammo.
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Dark Jackal

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #79 on: 12 December 2017, 20:02:11 »
Actually, has anything ever mounted a one-shot LRM in canon? We've seen SRMs a few times like on the War Dog, Grand Titan, and Quickdraw, but I can't think of ever having seen an LRM.

Not that I know of.

The best use case for a reworked (OS), either just straight up weapon package or half original weight, would be any ground unit as add-on firepower package or a fast mover that would deliver it like ordnance such as Aerospace, Jet, or VTOL/STOL. For smallish vehs, like 5-15 ton range, they're perfect to add additional firepower without being overly costly to the unit as a whole. My own in-house rules (being half weight) has the system with gunships that mount them like Apache's and Hinds would on exterior pylons. So, my in-house Hind has twin LRM-5(OS) @ 2 tons, twin SRM-2(OS) @ 1 ton, and center MG @ 1 ton for just 4 tons of firepower on a shoot and scoot VTOL.

Another example, the 10-ton Tracked APC that has 1.5 tons for the mg/ammo could cut the ammo in half and fit a 0.5t (OS) SRM-2 System giving it a certain punch that is lacking. If the game devs played around with the concept I hope they would change the rules in the future seeing more interesting and flexible design possibilities by reworking a current system that quite frankly is bad.

Col Toda

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #80 on: 12 December 2017, 21:37:03 »
The use of iOS launchers happen for only 3 reasons , 1 the original Clan design has just enough unaccounted tonnage to throw in an iOS SRM 2 so why not ( many 3050 models just check the math ) . 2 Combat Vehicle design you are working up has one space left and you are already at max armor the best thing is to put in an iOS , my favorite Streak SRM 4 as the ammo is never wasted . 3 Trailers with just a battery of multiple iOS launchers either for Urban hidden unit or air/ space field defense in that I can see a trailer with say 4 LRM 20s to shoot at enemy aircraft attacking the field . It gives you 2X the shots to hit and since weapon fire is simultaneous it fires it's whole damage potential so blowing it up is pointless . A LRM 20 normally does enough damage to force a control roll . A trailer next to an airfield is the ONLY place I could conceive that I would see an LRM iOS launchers period . 

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #81 on: 15 December 2017, 08:50:19 »
The IS Medium Laser is the most heat efficient laser in the game. You could technically out DPS someone if you boated only IS Mediums and just have to worry about putting yourself in good roll ranges. Also, they're a lot easier to mount on ICE equipped units if you're into theory crafting and design.
You missed the second half of my sentence.  I was speaking of IS pulse lasers in both the medium and large calibers.

Also Clan weapons can load IS ammo, so that problem won't be an issue.
I presume that a Clan Streak 4 firing IS ammo is limited to 9 hexes rather than the Clan 12.

So to go back on topic Lemons Clan LB-X and ATM mechs with only one ton of ammo dedication for the weapon . Yes they exist look them up.
Depending on what else the unit is carrying, the single ton of LB ammo can be forgivable. This does not apply to carrying a single ton of AC 20 ammo.  That right there is a mortal sin.  But for LB 2's and 5's...  For those small calibers, all I need is the spam, paired with a hole puncher. The LB 10, on the other hand, any unit that doesn't bring a ton of each is just asking for a golden turd nomination.
« Last Edit: 15 December 2017, 09:26:06 by grimlock1 »
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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #82 on: 15 December 2017, 19:04:39 »
I presume that a Clan Streak 4 firing IS ammo is limited to 9 hexes rather than the Clan 12.
The rules don't actually mention anything like that, so I'd assume that they actually have their reach of 12 hexes.

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #83 on: 15 December 2017, 22:46:23 »
The rules don't actually mention anything like that, so I'd assume that they actually have their reach of 12 hexes.
:: squint ::
I wad about launch into a rant how that makes no physical sense but I remembered what forum I'm in.
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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #84 on: 15 December 2017, 23:14:31 »
:: squint ::
I wad about launch into a rant how that makes no physical sense but I remembered what forum I'm in.
It's not like the missiles are confirmed to explode at 270 meters away from the launcher; they just seem to sort of trail off.  If a Streak launcher shoots them farther, well, it's a better/more accurate/longer ranged launcher that's able to guide its missiles further downrange than an IS launcher would.
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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #85 on: 16 December 2017, 05:31:20 »
Being launched from a Clan launcher does not change the mass or effientcy of the propellant or the warhead electronics so IS missile ammo would have IS performance characteristics range brackets minimum range penalties ect . All you are getting is a lighter launcher with less expensive ammo . That is still a huge advantage . Inner Sphere ammo is more varied and flexible while Clan ammo has better performance in many cases . I prefer the ease of logistics and reduced cost of maintaining Inner Sphere equipment . Mixed tech becomes advanced by 3095 but the infrastructure to make Inner Sphere production models with one primary or two secondary Clan spec weapons does not start until 3130 . Even then since the Sea Foxes proved that Inner Sphere Clients are willing to pay 2-2.8 X for after market prices that will still be the going rate . Unless you are running an actual Clan unit it costs too much to field a lot of Clan equipment .

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #86 on: 16 December 2017, 07:51:16 »
The rules don't actually mention anything like that, so I'd assume that they actually have their reach of 12 hexes.
:: squint ::
I wad about launch into a rant how that makes no physical sense but I remembered what forum I'm in.
My only thought would be that it is not the fuel that limits the range, but the targeting system?

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #87 on: 16 December 2017, 11:04:53 »
My only thought would be that it is not the fuel that limits the range, but the targeting system?

The early fluff, at least, says that missiles have much longer range than what is given in the rules, but can only HIT over those ranges because of the targeting systems. LRMs, for example, were fluffed to have a maximum flight range of several kilometers.
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The_Livewire

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #88 on: 16 December 2017, 11:20:05 »
It's not like the missiles are confirmed to explode at 270 meters away from the launcher; they just seem to sort of trail off.  If a Streak launcher shoots them farther, well, it's a better/more accurate/longer ranged launcher that's able to guide its missiles further downrange than an IS launcher would.

Well I guess he figures that IS SSRMs fired out of a clan launcher go 12 hexes?
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Daryk

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Re: Cherries & Lemons?
« Reply #89 on: 16 December 2017, 11:43:31 »
The early fluff, at least, says that missiles have much longer range than what is given in the rules, but can only HIT over those ranges because of the targeting systems. LRMs, for example, were fluffed to have a maximum flight range of several kilometers.
It's not just fluff... the extreme range and line of sight rules exist...