Author Topic: Weapon projectile sizes.  (Read 7650 times)

marauder648

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Weapon projectile sizes.
« on: 08 November 2017, 03:39:00 »
Please note that all of this art was done by the rather superb

https://karlstreiger.deviantart.com/

Below is his interpretation of gauss rifle ammo sizes and types.



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For better aerodynamics, those rounds need to have fins.
So the Gauss doesn't fire melons but bolts - longer rods would have been better - but the length and diameter of a projectile is important for a coil gun.
For better mass - those bolts have a DU or Tungsten core.
Naval projectiles are for Space only - maybe some thrusters could be necessary) - for Ortillery they might use smaller but heavier aerodynamic darts (Light Naval Gauss ~ Heavy Gauss)

Front to Rear
60mm Light Gauss Rifle (3 Bolts per Shot - 16 Shot per Ton)
75mm Clan Gauss Rifle (3 Bolts per Shot - 8 Shot per Ton)
90mm Gauss Rifle(2 Bolt per Shot - 8 Shot per Ton)
159mm Heavy Gauss Rifle (1 Bolt per Shot, 4 Shot per Ton)
280mm Naval Light Gauss
350mm Naval Medium Gauss
380mm Naval Heavy Gauss
1.5m Light Mass Driver (30t)

I think this really makes sense.  The Clan weapons with their superior capacitors would volley off three darts within the space of a second, the IS ones use a heavier round to make up for slower charging/less efficient capacitors.  The IS Light gauss fires three light bolts like a Clan gauss but could do this by having a far higher power draw/requirement than the standard IS gauss.  The drawback of this is that you'd have a shorter capacitor life as you're forcing a whole lot of power through them to get the velocity needed. 

He also did a family of AC ammunition.



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all the current shells are designed with 150mm but should be scaled accordingly. Some would hardly make sense for a Assault Rifle:

Left to right most with tracers

Behive - includes 19 frangible Tungsten darts - primary use against light armored targets or groups - works best vs BattleArmor ballistic coefficient G7
Shrapnel or AHEAD - releases a cloud of 171 steel/tungsten pellets - perfect vs infantry and aircrafts ballistic coefficient G7
HE(LE)-T High Explosive Lateral Effect with a fragmented casing ballistic coefficient G7
MP-T Multi Purpose Shell - (raufoss pyrotechnical detonation (head) instead of fuze ballistic coefficient G7
SAPHEI-T Semi armor piercing with High Explosive and incendiary filling (similar to the MP) ballistic coefficient G7
API-T Armor Piercing with Incendiary effect - tracer - ballistic coefficient G2
HEDP-T High Explosive with Shaped Charge and incendiary material - ballistic coefficient G2
ER-Ammunition - extended ammunition - (guided) with base bleed
APDS-FS
Sabot for sub caliber shells (SLAP)
WIP:
HEDP cluster rounds (primary for the ER ammo)
Casing and Caseless cartridges

What are your thoughts on this kind of projectile for Battletech AC's?  I think these kinds of rounds would work well with the kind of AC's you see in games like MWO or the original Mechwarrior Mercinaries where the guns are a definate BOOM BOOM BOOM type rather than a really rapid ROF like you had in Mechwarrior II
« Last Edit: 08 November 2017, 03:48:09 by marauder648 »
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beachhead1985

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Re: Weapon projectile sizes.
« Reply #1 on: 08 November 2017, 06:53:40 »
This is so cool! [drool]
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Alsadius

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Re: Weapon projectile sizes.
« Reply #2 on: 08 November 2017, 07:37:57 »
Very impressive art. I've never much liked the idea of these bug guns being cluster-fire weapons(the ballistics of that doesn't make much sense, and it doesn't fit with the gameplay - that's the difference between a Gauss and a HAG, or a normal AC and a UAC/RAC, for example), but the art is still very nice even if we ignore that.

marauder648

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Re: Weapon projectile sizes.
« Reply #3 on: 08 November 2017, 07:42:36 »
This is so cool! [drool]

He also did one for missiles, making them be larger individual missiles to cut down on the absurd amount of ammo a Mech would somehow carry in it
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Sockmonkey

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Re: Weapon projectile sizes.
« Reply #4 on: 08 November 2017, 15:17:00 »
What, like an LRM20 launches as a single missile that then opens up into a cluster of 20 smaller ones?
That's it! Challenge the Clans to rock-paper-scissors in 3050! A good portion of the 'Mechs didn't have hands so the Inner Sphere would win!
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marauder648

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Re: Weapon projectile sizes.
« Reply #5 on: 08 November 2017, 15:50:08 »
What, like an LRM20 launches as a single missile that then opens up into a cluster of 20 smaller ones?



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attleTech Missiles

this topic is very very delicate. Usually the issue is are those guided? Are they not guided? How big are they? There are some artists works that might give us some clue. As long as you don't take the BattleArmor Missiles sizes.
Another issue is the huge number of missiles per ton - 120 LRMs per ton. Per weight those missiles are somewhere near a Hydra Rocket - but seriously - 120 Hydra Rockets? Good luck getting them through a joint.

Multiple corkscrewing Missiles - we all love Japanese Mecha Style look and feel but lets try something else:

The kind of Missiles

    LRM - a mix of Artillery Missile and SAM
        Guidance: Terminal active guided with inertial guidance (artillery) or semi active (AA and SAM)
        Artillery maybe: Doombood; FarFire, Arbalest
        AA - Holly; Zeus
    SRM - fat slow cousin - anti everything with heavy armor
        Guidance semi active or user guided
        differnce sizes but have a bigger payload compared to LRMs of the same diameter
    MRM - simple MLRS
        not guided ballistic missile
    ATM - we can do everything guys
        clear - same diameter different guidance
        Artillery - ER
        SAM - (standard)
        HATM - (HE)
    Rocket Launcher - Hyrda, Zuni, smaybe?
    MML - fires SRM and LRM of the same diameter and l/w ratio

In the picture above:
from left to right:

    50t Killer Whale bad thing - accelerate around 1-4g multi stage - ~ 15.000 m/s deltaV
    Medium SRM  - Kornet Size no stats yet
    Ultra Heavy SRM - but slow as hell hope target doesn't move
    Zeus LRM - Mach 4 no problem very light warhead
    Far Fire LRM - huge warhead makes hardly 1.5 mach
    MRM - no stats yet
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dragonkid11

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Re: Weapon projectile sizes.
« Reply #6 on: 08 November 2017, 19:49:17 »
Isn't MRM supposed to be the smallest of the bunch? The damn missile only weight like 5 kilograms each.
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Hptm. Streiger

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Re: Weapon projectile sizes.
« Reply #7 on: 09 November 2017, 04:55:30 »
Isn't MRM supposed to be the smallest of the bunch? The damn missile only weight like 5 kilograms each.

Well MRM are more a kind of Rockets - and when you don't want your missile be a multi-tubed RPGs launcher you need to make missiles long - seldom below 10:1 l:w ratio.
So the MRM in the picture is roughly based on a S-13 122mm rocket.
But another MRM could be the size of a MLRS - as with most of those missiles i ignore the number more or less - and go with the weight (including the launcher)

Some TRO pictures also seem to second this approach (LRM FarFire on the JES II; LRM on the Condor II) - MRM on No-Dachi (they either don't reload or "reloadig" will take some time and hard work) -> use a crane to reload rocket/missile packs like for the MLRS


As a example - a MRM system designed as Artillery system -> Pegasus MRM 20 with 2tons of ammunition (launcher plus missiles = 9ton)
12 rockets each ~300kg  - remaining for launcher system and armor 5.4tons


Very impressive art. I've never much liked the idea of these bug guns being cluster-fire weapons(the ballistics of that doesn't make much sense, and it doesn't fit with the gameplay - that's the difference between a Gauss and a HAG, or a normal AC and a UAC/RAC, for example), but the art is still very nice even if we ignore that.
A HAG would be more a kind of rail gun - because rail guns work better with smaller caliber and you can fire a second projectile before the first even left the barrel.
Would not work with a Coil Gun
(Coil Guns work best with huge diameter projectiles - but those have terrible aerodynamics - or weight to much - so you reduce caliber - increasing the length of the accelerator and if you put to much energy into your coils the projectile would stop to be ferromagnetic (Currie Temp) or even start to melt.

« Last Edit: 09 November 2017, 04:58:43 by Hptm. Streiger »

I am Belch II

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Re: Weapon projectile sizes.
« Reply #8 on: 10 November 2017, 07:39:11 »
Nice job. Looks pretty neat.
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idea weenie

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Re: Weapon projectile sizes.
« Reply #9 on: 11 November 2017, 15:24:04 »
Isn't MRM supposed to be the smallest of the bunch? The damn missile only weight like 5 kilograms each.

I'm getting the mental picture of the Jericho missile system from the first Iron Man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Iib3Z0dhDk

Hptm. Streiger

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Re: Weapon projectile sizes.
« Reply #10 on: 14 November 2017, 05:34:55 »
I'm getting the mental picture of the Jericho missile system from the first Iron Man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Iib3Z0dhDk

That is a idea, indeed. Well well well - I can use my current work, the Demolisher, as test bed - 3 MRM 30 and 6 tons of ammunition.
Could also become a 48 tube launcher for a missile bus.

Daemion

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Re: Weapon projectile sizes.
« Reply #11 on: 23 November 2017, 11:36:32 »
I always got the notion that BT Gauss Rifles are coil guns. Not only that, but the speed at which they're launched would suggest that they start to turn plasmatic in transit, this able to defeat the magic armor a lot better than any fancy shell.

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beachhead1985

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Re: Weapon projectile sizes.
« Reply #12 on: 26 November 2017, 08:01:09 »
I always got the notion that BT Gauss Rifles are coil guns. Not only that, but the speed at which they're launched would suggest that they start to turn plasmatic in transit, this able to defeat the magic armor a lot better than any fancy shell.

Well they do come right out and say that, no?

They call them "Coil guns" in canon.
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Hptm. Streiger

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Re: Weapon projectile sizes.
« Reply #13 on: 19 February 2019, 08:06:04 »
Well .... I know I should feel bad about NecroPost and such - but it would be unnecessary to create a new topic. Simple because its neither new art nor something new.

Instead of creating different shells out into the blue, I've started with the known 120mm APFS-DS - its the perfect anti tank round, and everything should start from there.


The 120mm is at the right... I used the very long german DM-53 - the APFSDS of other nations are a little bit shorter and/or thicker.
The huge 4th shell is supposed to be the ammunition for the BattleTech Light Rifle....
The short darts (with a to small sabot) are for Heavy Rifles.... you can't increase the size for APFSDS darts unlimited... already the large thing would be a pain to handle.



So instead of creating larger shells BT Ammunition moved the other direction... smaller shells = simpler to load = higher RoF

It also allows some kind of standardization.... in my examples the 72mm Imperator A of the Rifleman, the 105 of the ShadowHawk, the 120 of the MAD and the 150mm of the Hetzer all use the same shells.... the only difference is the size of the sabot (that might be printed on the run by a techassistant)

Instead of having all kinds of ammunition types I merged them into one round... this Jack of All Trades might nor work this way... but a base bleeding, AHEAD, explosive, hard core, programmable fuze, laser sensor, low drag, saboted ammunition might be exact that kind of nightmare you simple call HEAP

Hptm. Streiger

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Re: Weapon projectile sizes.
« Reply #14 on: 15 November 2019, 03:09:19 »
All those up popping threads about different ammunition and damage values gave me an idea to resurrect this topic.
Hello my name is Karl and I like my "BT" designs to be functional - so when you say you put a 5 rifles and 5tons of ammunition in that 25t vehicle that should not be larger as a BMP - a Karl should pop open in your mind and ask you - serious?

anyhow - below you see the "third" attempt in making stuff understandable.
I have done some more work in the mean time - unfortunately another data crash destroyed some other files, i would like to have more work but before more topics pop open... here some "findings".

BT damage is very abstract, however, you have a common determinator especially when talking about shells - a AC2 shot is ~20kg for 2 damage. This translates great in the good old M1 90mm, as German, I would, of course, prefer the 88mm but that's not so important. The whole cartridge for both should be near 20kg. Muzzle Energy for both somewhere near 4 MJ. When you put some "sicfi" aspects like a more powerful propellant, electrothermal ignition of this propellant you might get a Muzzle Energy of maybe 7-9 MJ - for a single 20kg shot. Doesn't matter if you deliver it in a single round or several smaller but in the end of the day - you need to put x-many round with a sum of y-MJ with minimal dispersion into an enemy vehicle. When your 3 57mm rounds of your AC2 hit the target all over the place you deal no damage that you build on.
(Based on the assumption that today's ceramic armor shatters after the first hit but thanks to backing material keeps 99% of its protection. So you need to shatter it again and destroy the backing material by explosives)

When you use less high-tech propellant you might have lighter rifles but you need more weight per shot. So for example to get the 9MJ of an 20kg "AC2" you might need a 50kg shot of a larger caliber.

When you use this baseline you can have different ammunition calibers - even explain the difference between the Light ACs and the regular ACs.
for example - the drum of the defiance ac 5 of the Zeus - 75mm next to the 135mm rounds for the Napoleon Light AC 5... (bot ammunition storages weight a ton)


here are some of the third rework of AC ammunition:
a 90mm Full Bore CTA cartridge (shell is similar to the Raufoss MP)
a saboted 140mm with a 90mm shell,
a 140mm LBX round (a base bleed shell with payload)
a 90mm Ultra AC shell (using lighter ammunition for higher RoF that peepers the target with lots of darts)

this also explains why ammunition can not be interchanged.



TLDR;
high powered ballistics consume ~ 10kg ammunition weight for 1 damage
low powered ballistics consume  ~  18kg ammunition weight for 1 damage