(Answered) Copperheads Missing Lock or TAG

[Alfaryn]

Neither the rules on p. 355 TO, nor the ones on p. 78 BMM say what happens to a Copperhead round if there is nothing tagged by a friendly TAG within 8 hexes of the original target, or what happens if there is a TAG, but you fail a 4+ roll to hit. Do they explode harmlessly above the ground if there is no TAG (like Homing Arrow IV - see p. 354 TO and p. 97 BMM)? If there is a TAG, but they fail to roll 4+ on attack, do they hit the hex where the target is and do reduced AE damage there (again like Arrow IV), and if so - how much damage for each artillery type? Or do they scatter/deal damage in some other way in those situations?

Errata Suggestion: If Copperhead rounds can deal AE damage on a miss, they should probably have their damage changed in the Battlefield Support Table on p. 78 BMM from N/A to AE (as they are marked in the Heavy Weapons Ammunition Combat Data table on p. 412 TO) or a double dagger. You should also clarify the rules for Copperhead rounds on p. 355 TO and p. 78 BMM to answer the above questions.

[Xotl]

As stated on page 355 of TO, handle them the same way Homing Arrow IVs are handled.  You'd need to consult the TO errata to see the full version of those rules though, as they've been extensively errataed.

[Alfaryn]

So it means, that a Copperhead deals 5 AE damage (regardless of the type/size of the artillery piece that fired it) in a hex occupied by the TAG-ed target if it misses it's 4+ to hit roll? This is something that should probably be stated explicitly in the rules for Copperhead rounds, as those rules direct the player to the table on p. 184 TO for Damage Values (or just provide Damage Value Groupings in case of BMM) without specifying, that those only apply if the round hits it's intended target.

Extra question: Can I TAG a hex instead of a unit, to guarantee (assuming the TAG is successful) AE damage to everything in this hex from an incoming Arrow IV or Copperhead round, as opposed to firing those rounds at a TAG-ed unit (bullet points 1-4 on under Arrow IV Homing Missile game rules on p. 354 TO) or firing them unguided at a preselected hex using the rules in the fifth bullet point of the same rules?

[Xotl]

You need to consult the TO errata for the Arrow IV rules, as I mentioned; ignore all the TO stuff.

Tagging a hex is legal per the TO-errata version.

[Alfaryn]

Thanks for the answer.

I always try to check existing errata, or at least the errata pdf-s if the errata thread is particularly log before posting any rules question, and this time was no different. The way I read the errata for Arrow IV Homing Missiles (p. 354 TO), the second bullet point says, that a Homing Arrow IV may hit a TAG-ed unit, ans says nothing about targeting hexes. The fourth bullet point says about TAG-ing targets, without specifying if those targets can be hexes or not.

The whole rules text for Homing Arrow IVs on p. 354 TO makes is therefore perfectly clear that Homing Arrow IV may target a TAG-ed unit, but (again as far as I understand the rules as written), isn't all that clear if it can hit a TAG-ed hex, and what happens in such case (if there is any AE damage to units in the hex, or the damage is applied only to the hex itself). The only way of attacking hexes with Homing Arrow IV I see the rules specifically say about is in the fifth bullet point, but this is by lunching them unguided (with no requirement or option to use TAG) on a hex determined at the moment of lunch, and subject of scatter like any other unguided artillery fire.

If there are such rules elsewhere in TO or BMM about firing Homing Arrow IV at TAG-ed hexes (as opposed to units), I haven't found them, ad would appreciate if someone pointed me to them. If there are not - perhaps the section on p. 354 TO should be clarified a bit?

You could also consider clarifying it on p. 97 BMM, although it may be unnecessary, since usefulness of TAG-ing hexes for Arrow IV fire is not that high in 'Mech only combat due to stacking rules usually limiting the number of 'Mechs in a single hex to one (although it may still serve some purpose if a targeted hex contains some destructible terrain - like woods or a building).

[Xotl]

From the TO errata:

•   Alternatively, a homing missile may simply be fired, directly or indirectly, at a single hex without a TAG-designated target. If fired in this fashion, the attack only deals 5 damage to all units in the hex struck. If such an attack misses the target hex, it scatters as would a normal, non-guided artillery attack.

[Alfaryn]

From the TO errata:

•   Alternatively, a homing missile may simply be fired, directly or indirectly, at a single hex without a TAG-designated target. If fired in this fashion, the attack only deals 5 damage to all units in the hex struck. If such an attack misses the target hex, it scatters as would a normal, non-guided artillery attack.

The above point describes attacking hex without a TAG (like a regular unguided Arrow IV missile). I've already stated, that I understand, that it is possible:

The only way of attacking hexes with Homing Arrow IV I see the rules specifically say about is in the fifth bullet point, but this is by lunching them unguided (with no requirement or option to use TAG) on a hex determined at the moment of lunch, and subject of scatter like any other unguided artillery fire.

My problem is that the rules don't cover firing Homing Arrow IV primed do be guided by TAG, and then TAG-ing a hex instead of a unit.

[Xotl]

Sorry, running around like mad trying to errata four books at once.  I finally see what you're saying.  I'll check.

[Xotl]

Yes, you can TAG a hex.  Damage is the same as described under attacking an untagged hex.

[Alfaryn]

Sorry, running around like mad trying to errata four books at once.  I finally see what you're saying.  I'll check.

Don't be sorry. It's clear, that what you do here is a lot of work for a single person. You should be proud to manage it as well as you do.

Let me sum up how I understand your answers in this thread:
1. A Copperhead round can be fired in a TAG-guided mode, or unguided (just like Homing Arrow IV);
2. If a Copperhead round is set to be unguided it behaves like a regular artillery round (it uses regular artillery to-hit rolls for unguided shells, scatters on a failed roll etc.), except that it always deals only 5 AE damage (regardless of weather it was fired from Thumper, Sniper or a Long Tom) to a hex it which it lands, and to every unit in this hex (except of course units not on the ground - like flying WiGEs, VTOLs etc. - per normal damage rules on p. 182 TO);
3. If a Copperhead round is fired in TAG-guided mode and nothing is TAG-ed by a friendly TAG in an 8 hex radius around the hex it was aimed at on the turn it was supposed to hit, then the round self-destructs dealing no damage to anything;
4. If a Copperhead round is fired in TAG-guided mode, attacks a successfully TAG-ed unit and misses unmodified 4+ to hit roll to hit a successfully TAG-ed unit, it deals 5 AE damage to the TAG-ed unit's hex (except units not on the ground), and every unit in that hex (again - regardless of the kind of artillery it was fired from);
5. If a Copperhead round or a Homing Arrow IV is fired in TAG-guided mode, attacks a successfully TAG-ed hex, you can skip the 4+ to hit roll, because weather that roll succeeds or fails, the round or missile will hit the TAG-ed hex dealing 5 AE damage to the hex, and every unit in it (except units not on the ground). The only way such attack can fail is if you fail to TAG the hex.

Let me know if I understand everything above correctly. This list is also everything that I feel that the rules fail to explain (at least in a way, that isn't open to various player interpretation). I hope it can help you if you decide to make an errata for the rules in question.

[Xotl]

1-4 Yes.
5 No, if you miss the 4+ roll then you roll to scatter as per a normal, non-guided artillery attack.  This is in the fifth bullet point of the curret wording (errata / third printing).

[Alfaryn]

You mean the fifth point of Arrow IV Homing Missiles (p. 354) in 3.0 version of the TO errata? The way I read it it only applies to homing missiles fired in non-guided mode, not to missiles fired in homing mode that fail to find a lock.

[Xotl]

Yes, I misread.  It looks like your assumption via point 5 is also correct.

[Alfaryn]

Ok, though it seems a little weird to have such 100% certain way to hit anything in the game. Even if it is a hit with a weapon that in most situations would do much more damage if used as intended - directly against a unit, not a hex.

There are situations in the game when you want to attack a hex after all (to damage a building or for scenario reasons for example), and having a guarantee you can do it is just something that without some sort of penalty or risk (like it is with automatic hits with swarming attacks, that are balanced by the fact that it is usually difficult and risky to both initiate and continue swarming the target) rarely happens in Battletech.

In case of attacking a TAG-ed hex with an Arrow IV the only cost appears to be an opportunity cost of using the same shot elsewhere, though maybe it is enough considering how much this ammo and luncher cost (in terms of tonnage, BV and C-Bills), and it takes a turn during which this luncher can't shoot at something else and potentially deliver 20 damage to it. Unusual though maybe this is enough? Probably not a big thing either way, just a little weird as a said.