MechWidgets: A Disscussion About 'Mech Production

[SCC]

OK, we all know that 'Mech production is limited by some unknown factor, which I am christening MechWidgets under the assumption that they're actual physical components and not something abstract, I'm also assuming that ASF require MechWidgets as they seem to be similarly limited and possibly ProtoMechs as well, but no other unit types.

The classic/original MechWidget is the fusion reactor, but this has two problems: 1) Most vehicles use them now, and 2) you run into a recurrsion problem (How hard are fusion engines to make? Is it a fixed amount per engine? Scale with weight? Or scale with Rating?)

The next option is a fixed amount per unit. In this case MechWidgets are likely something to do with the control system used in 'Mechs, ASF, and Protos. But this also has a problem, it favors heavier units over lighter ones unless those lighter ones can bring a proportionally equal return.

MechWidgets by weight is another option, and matches what wee see in-universe somewhat, it assumes that an Atlas requires five time the MechWidgets a Locust does, which is a better outcome for Lights, but still not ideal.

Costs Extra: It's entirely possible that including some things in a design requires the so of more MechWidgets to build it, most likely Jump Jets and Omni capability. LAMs need not apply here, their limits are entirely different.

It's also possible that a combination is in effect, IE: Each 'Mech requires 1 MechWidget plus 1 additional MechWidget per 20 tons, so an Atlas cost 6 and a Locust costs 2 and a Wasp might cost 3 if JJ's cost extra.

So what do people think is the situation?

[Maingunnery]

I think it the combination of more advanced grade materials and more complex design (then more conventional units).
Thus the parts are more difficult to manufacture, and will likely require more work in development and production.
The complexity in design is, in part, due to it operating in many different environments (a trait which 'Mechs share with ASF & Protos).   

[Nightlord01]

OK, we all know that 'Mech production is limited by some unknown factor, which I am christening MechWidgets under the assumption that they're actual physical components and not something abstract, I'm also assuming that ASF require MechWidgets as they seem to be similarly limited and possibly ProtoMechs as well, but no other unit types.

The classic/original MechWidget is the fusion reactor, but this has two problems: 1) Most vehicles use them now, and 2) you run into a recurrsion problem (How hard are fusion engines to make? Is it a fixed amount per engine? Scale with weight? Or scale with Rating?)

The next option is a fixed amount per unit. In this case MechWidgets are likely something to do with the control system used in 'Mechs, ASF, and Protos. But this also has a problem, it favors heavier units over lighter ones unless those lighter ones can bring a proportionally equal return.

MechWidgets by weight is another option, and matches what wee see in-universe somewhat, it assumes that an Atlas requires five time the MechWidgets a Locust does, which is a better outcome for Lights, but still not ideal.

Costs Extra: It's entirely possible that including some things in a design requires the so of more MechWidgets to build it, most likely Jump Jets and Omni capability. LAMs need not apply here, their limits are entirely different.

It's also possible that a combination is in effect, IE: Each 'Mech requires 1 MechWidget plus 1 additional MechWidget per 20 tons, so an Atlas cost 6 and a Locust costs 2 and a Wasp might cost 3 if JJ's cost extra.

So what do people think is the situation?

Initially it was because the tools to make the tools and all the knowledge had been lost, meaning that those designs being produced we being made by automated machinery and the capacity to make these machines was lost, including most of the required capacity to repair broken ones.

Now? Anyone's guess. Although I suppose you could claim that the resources needed to make them are scarce, but in an explored expanse spanning thousands of star systems, that seems a little implausible.

[Daryk]

The unit type multiplier would seem to lean toward Main Gunnery's explanation (complexity) being the main culprit.  The main advantages 'mechs have on the battlefield are flexibility (they can operate in more kinds of terrain than vehicles, to include the ability to cross the atmospheric interface) and durability (they can lose sections and continue to function).  They both come with a cost.

[Daemion]

I honestly think it's a combination of non-mechanical factors.

A) It's a hold-over from the compartmentalized worlds the Hegemony used to centralize manufacture during and before the Star League. With parts coming to a single world from God-knows-how-many other star systems, that slows things down.

B) Social structures by the Lords keep it slow to maintain a stranglehold so that no planet can whip out hundreds of regiments and require NBC level suppression.

There's nothing from keeping small, independent scratch builders from assembling mechs on any given world. But, without the huge factory complexes, it's a slow process. Think a fancy repair bay at the heart of downtown Capital City.

From what I've seen of numbers in past documentation, Mechs are actually as common as Weedles in Veridian Forest (in Red version). I've long since concluded that they are very proliferant among private owners, or as 'mobile parts depots' in scrap yards, making scrounged tech and repairs generally easy to facilitate. Especially the basic 'intro tech' machines.

Combine that with an unseen amount of low-level conflict where the typical BattleTech game plays out in a standard fashion, leaving a small handful of crippled survivors on both sides, then the notion that it's something about the construction of the machines falls apart.

Outside of that, what's left? The people. The idiots in charge. You'd be surprised how much tradition, the drive for power and the ensuing 'Mine!' factor, and a few-hundred years of inertia of the staying put variety can have on how things are done.

There are people who've pointed out how the fragility of the XL engine and a few decades of combat and general Tech proliferation should have driven down the huge costs for such power plants compared to the standard fusion furnace. Yet it hasn't. Sounds like economic factors have been forced to stay high. The same could be said for BattleMechs, especially those with advanced tech.

[Empyrus]

Pretty sure 'Mechs are quite robotized (the tech essays from TechManual note something about "training" 'Mechs themselves, the computer system eventually adjusts to its pilot). Since the Inner Sphere is not big on robots and automation in general, this tech is probably big part of 'Mechs expenses and complexity.

[Daemion]

The sad thing is, just like what finally killed all the Woolly Mammoths, and other similar ice age animals, in North America, it's not going to be any one thing.

Tech can be an issue. But, it's not the only factor. Not all the Inner Sphere is completely tech illiterate, but the majority appear to be in the largest sense. Done on purpose? Done by accident? Just the nature of Colonies only a couple centuries old? An aspect of perpetual warfare?

[guardiandashi]

I always looked at it as a variety and a combination of factors that added up to a big issue.

first the biggie
in the 3025 era much of the specific and detailed knowledge in a variety of fields had been lost (through a combination of records damaged /lost, (funny about that fire 10 years ago that took out the A cabinet in the records room, and also around the same time the electronic databases and copies got destroyed (by a number of causes)  leaving the only actual info in the brains of oh wait the last person that knew that tripped on a cobblestone (in a paved street) and did a header into an open manhole, and died.

what this did was eliminate much of the specialized knowledge needed to rebuild (or repair) a factory if critical components died/ wore out, and there weren't replacements available any more.

the net effect of this was to put many of the factories effectively on life support.

then you have many of the factories having much of the actual production being based on "lights out" factories, being forced to fall back on actual workers which tends to be less efficient. (and more expensive)

another issue is that "everyone knows" that factories are tremendously expensive so no one wants to build a huge expensive target, because you "know" that's just asking the other houses (or sometimes factions in your own house) to drop a regiment on it and steal / destroy your investment.

another issue is that yes there are huge "pyramids" of production needed to support a factory, and most of them are either not present, or already tapped out.

etc.

what this combination does is,  is setup that some of the bottlenecks are knowledge based, some are shipping based, some are economic, and others are ... will or desire based.

[beachhead1985]

I lean more towards complexity, knowledge and tooling being the permanent bottlenecks.

With Lostech, there were other issues; MechWidgets that could no longer be had reliably, or in quantity or at all.

Post-LosTech, the issues are sufficient knowledge base and the overall issues with maintaining and replacing complex tooling and processes.

[ANS Kamas P81]

You know, there's one particular piece of technology that does precisely what you describe - makes battlemechs possible, doesn't exist in any other unit, and is the one key piece of future technology that would absolutely block the hell out of battlemech production.

Myomers.

Not the little rubberbands that make up replacement prosthetic limbs, we're going way up on the square-cube law and talking about those specialized massive ones that look like a dead whale's tongue.  They're capable of accelerating a 'Mech from 0-100km/h faster than modern day supercars, and fine enough that they can (with sufficient targeting hardware) drop a shell on a target many kilometers downrange.  It's not a question of brute strength, massive lifespans, or fine control, you get all three with 'Mech myomers.  It really is the perfect scarcity check, and it's the only real option once you realize that vehicles get access to every other bit of technology that 'Mechs do.

[Sartris]

I've come to favor the myomer bottleneck explanation as well

limited myomers, limited mechs; limited K-F drives, limited ability to move forces around

of course the major hole in this reasoning is that it doesn't explain why every halfway industrialized planet doesn't have dozens of regiments of tanks (especially along national boundaries). Even the MoC should be an unassailable fortress of death by vedettes...

[Daemion]

I've come to favor the myomer bottleneck explanation as well

limited myomers, limited mechs; limited K-F drives, limited ability to move forces around

of course the major hole in this reasoning is that it doesn't explain why every halfway industrialized planet doesn't have dozens of regiments of tanks (especially along national boundaries). Even the MoC should be an unassailable fortress of death by vedettes...

That comes from the lessons learned from the Succession Wars. Massed armies are a one-trick pony that last only the first round of contact. Then the other side breaks into the nuke stockpile, or has someone whip up a new warhead, and by-by Vedette Wall.

[Sartris]

I guess that works if your opponent is the continual incarnation of the original Command and Conquer AI and you're willing to commit scores of atrocities to win an objective raid.

I feel like I could use my local knowledge of the planet to adequately hide enough of my 10,000 tanks from the blast zone and defeat the company of invaders.

Any theory production scarcity for mechs ultimately has to grapple with the idea that vehicles get to use the same magic armor and superweapons as the mechs... as well as fighters.

Either that or literally everyone has decided to abandon the best methods of defense for their territory

[Daemion]

I guess that works if your opponent is the continual incarnation of the original Command and Conquer AI and you're willing to commit scores of atrocities to win an objective raid.

I feel like I could use my local knowledge of the planet to adequately hide enough of my 10,000 tanks from the blast zone and defeat the company of invaders.

When the nut is hard enough, you may have to ditch the nut-cracker for a hammer.

And, the Hegemony and houses, as well as private concerns, have shown they are very good at hiding stuff from prying eyes. But, it can't be moved while hidden, either.

Either that or literally everyone has decided to abandon the best methods of defense for their territory

I can't help but wonder if this isn't the case. Fighter Screens should be able to intercept any raid handily. Computers are advanced enough to forecast potential landing zones that putting up fighters in logical strike areas should nix interstellar raiding entirely.

Satellites seem like they aught to be cheep enough to quickly put up and replace, helping fight ECM and locate and track invaders.

So, there are a lot of things that seemed to have gone by the wayside for reasons unexplained.

Any theory production scarcity for mechs ultimately has to grapple with the idea that vehicles get to use the same magic armor and superweapons as the mechs... as well as fighters.

Well, with that in mind, the same reasons that apply to Mech scarcity also probably apply to anything that takes advantage of that technology.

I'm a proponent of the notion that the Tanks seen in the TRos, that use the standard Combat Vehicle Rules, are like Conventional infantry, are like BattleMechs, are like Aerospace Fighters, are like Dropships: They're the front end stuff that can face-off against like machines, and are equally limited. The vast majority of armies are not up to snuff. They're stocked to the gills with locally made things that use the support vehicle rules and constructions to get limitations. The infantry are merely joe-schmoes who only completed basic training, were given a gun, and some extra training and education to make them stand-up soldier-citizens on the world they call home. They aren't the pro-athletes we see in Total Warfare.

There's supposed to be a power level that we haven't seen where the Mechs, ASFs, Battle Armor and Combat Vehicles really outperform everything else. Against each other, it's a close call every time with the right numbers or combinations. What happened to the forces and equipment during the rise of the BattleMech. Why can't we recreate that one Marik invasion of a Lyran world where conventional forces met Mechs in combat for the first time, and were completely smeared?

Frankly, the rules haven't been made for that, that's why. It doesn't help that the authors and fans generally have brought modern combat sensibilities to a Sci-fi/Science Fantasy game and proceeded to laugh at Mechs and go through every effort to make the infantryman, the MBT, or ASF or Artillery, or some cheep trick, make them look ridiculous. And, emulating that has gone into a lot of iterations of advanced rules to cater to those sensibilities, and have eventually become mainstream in the core rules.

Combined Arms wins the day? Seriously? And, yet the future battlefield is supposed to be so advanced and scary that general PBIs are ideally not supposed to be running around with the giants unaugmented. That sounds a bit schizophrenic.


I see it going one of a number of ways, of which I'll describe two, and I've played around with both setting ideas through different campaigns.

Option 1 is as I described above - the scarcity goes to all things using magic armor and advanced targeting to get get around it, and advanced ECMage and other defensive measures used to make the failure to strike rates so high. (Yes, I equate game performance as an indicator of how combat works in the BTu. It's the only real measure I have to go from.)  This is offset by a combination of large armies of lesser toys, giving me free reign to have a design hay-day. I get to meta different rules options, old and new, tweaked or unmodified, to weaken these other toys so that they're effective against one another, but stand no real chance against the real deal, especially the vaunted Medium Laser, the bane of conventional forces since the late space age. Having one of those should be like the prototype laser in Ring of Red.


Option 2 is to ignore the supposed Bottleneck that people imagine there is. Mechs are prevalent, as indicated by the rather unstoppable, just barely regulated mercenary trade, which seems to be the star of the show in BattleTech.  Pirates are a close second. After all, who wants to play a house Paladin who rarely sees combat? That is until the Major is feeling that rivalry with the enemy regiment across the border has finally garnered enough merit to commandeer not one, but at least two different ships to stage a raid against them. That could be a while. And, with Mechs and Tanks, and Fighters everywhere, that really isn't that easy.

Social norms of Neofeudalism are the major drive behind people not massing huge armies to blast an interloper to Kingdom Come when they come calling. The Clan duel system is actually an extreme of the norm in the Inner Sphere, where low level conflicts are common, and not just between worlds, but on any given planet. A Merc need not head to the stars to find trouble worth money, or make a name for themselves.

This notion allows for perpetual gameplay in the setting with little remorse or recourse into the design aspect. Customization is still common, and the tech for it is plenteous. There's no real need for the lesser things unless people are feeling desperate. Sure, this means that tanks are just as common or more-so, along with all the general equalizing tech we see in the TRos and general rules.

It's easy for business to continue on in this version, and the BTu is certainly big enough for it.

I like both, to be honest, but I can only justify one or the other for any given campaign.

[Nightlord01]

I'm going with option C Daemion:

C: It's a game that didn't have a lot of thought put into it's background and instead of running around trying to patch holes in the story line, just decided to stick to it's guns.

Seriously, there's no point trying to rationalize it, because it's not rational. Jordan Weisman and co weren't either scientists, military specialists or experienced universe designers, they simply put it all together and then dusted off their hands. Nothing wrong with that, but the universe is manipulated to suit the game, not the other way around, and the game is all about small unit action.

[Dark Jackal]

Me and my buddy were just going over this using a small Periphery Nation like the Marian Hegemony and how they "produce" a Marauder II H variant. So, we've determined that it's all about trade and where the materials are sourced from rather than most of the stuff being made on site with some exceptions (Vindicator being one where most of it is made on site or sourced from the same company production run). The factory in question is like the birth of Frankenstein's monster with some love and effort done there. How many are made is based on how much trade they got going to their base and how big the facility is to put this all together.

Think of it as assembling multiple knock-down kits to make one 'Mech instead of an assembly line where T-34s are pumped out. Speaking of Assembly lines, the Gladius, a vehicle made in the Hegemony, yearly production run is something like 21+ vehicles per year.

 ;)

[ANS Kamas P81]

Any theory production scarcity for mechs ultimately has to grapple with the idea that vehicles get to use the same magic armor and superweapons as the mechs... as well as fighters.

Which is where it breaks down, and frankly those super-technology weapons and armor (aka 3025 tech) should also be just as rare as the myomers that make 'Mechs possible.  It would mean redoing the entire vehicle and ASF parts of the game, but I still think that 'mechs should be the true kings of the battlefield.  Let the tanks and infantry and artillery do their thing with Primitive technologies (which are still centuries ahead of today's machines) and they can solve a battle on their own.  Drop a 'Mech lance into a planetary battle and suddenly you've got a very difficult threat.  They're just that much better, being literally a thousand years ahead of today's tech and equally so, centuries past 'primitive' technology.  Suddenly your 'Mechs are back to being your armored knights in battles, while your more typical man-at-arms and whatnot is the rest of the military.

[SCC]

That comes from the lessons learned from the Succession Wars. Massed armies are a one-trick pony that last only the first round of contact. Then the other side breaks into the nuke stockpile, or has someone whip up a new warhead, and by-by Vedette Wall.

And when the planetary government rebuilds their military they realize that the mistake was allowing the invaders and rely on nuclear tipped anti-shipping missiles to stop any future attacks.

Which is where it breaks down, and frankly those super-technology weapons and armor (aka 3025 tech) should also be just as rare as the myomers that make 'Mechs possible.  It would mean redoing the entire vehicle and ASF parts of the game, but I still think that 'mechs should be the true kings of the battlefield.  Let the tanks and infantry and artillery do their thing with Primitive technologies (which are still centuries ahead of today's machines) and they can solve a battle on their own.  Drop a 'Mech lance into a planetary battle and suddenly you've got a very difficult threat.  They're just that much better, being literally a thousand years ahead of today's tech and equally so, centuries past 'primitive' technology.  Suddenly your 'Mechs are back to being your armored knights in battles, while your more typical man-at-arms and whatnot is the rest of the military.

NO! A part from the rules complexity problem there are likely to be suspension of disbelief problems (Armor is a consumable, so unless you want your 'Mechs going into battle without repairs to armor)There's also the fact that under such a system a 'Mech is likely to only mount one or two full power weapons.

[Nightlord01]

Me and my buddy were just going over this using a small Periphery Nation like the Marian Hegemony and how they "produce" a Marauder II H variant. So, we've determined that it's all about trade and where the materials are sourced from rather than most of the stuff being made on site with some exceptions (Vindicator being one where most of it is made on site or sourced from the same company production run). The factory in question is like the birth of Frankenstein's monster with some love and effort done there. How many are made is based on how much trade they got going to their base and how big the facility is to put this all together.

Think of it as assembling multiple knock-down kits to make one 'Mech instead of an assembly line where T-34s are pumped out. Speaking of Assembly lines, the Gladius, a vehicle made in the Hegemony, yearly production run is something like 21+ vehicles per year.

 ;)

And here in lies the problem, each Great House has the capacity to make a brand new mech from scratch, and to make pretty well as many of them as they want. It's no longer lostech, the technology is well known, just for some reason everyone is reluctant to build it. Why would you ever build a factory to make a tank from purely indigenous parts if you are only going to churn out 20 odd a year? That should be 20 a day!

The issue is that this is all irrational, because the universe is only half dynamic. Since there's a requirement to make every bit of equipment in game playable, it makes it hard to have a genuine improvement because of game balance. I'm not sure what the in-universe reason is for the small armies, as far as I know there really isn't one, each State should have thousands of divisions they produce themselves, but I suppose that would eliminate the whole a Company is a powerful force approach.

[ANS Kamas P81]

NO! A part from the rules complexity problem there are likely to be suspension of disbelief problems (Armor is a consumable, so unless you want your 'Mechs going into battle without repairs to armor)There's also the fact that under such a system a 'Mech is likely to only mount one or two full power weapons.

I don't get what you're saying about armor.  And come on, you're worried about people's suspension of disbelief in a FASA setting?  The point is that they can make weapons, armor, myomers, and such - just enough to make a few dozen proper battlemechs a year, or whatever fits your production state.  But that eats up the entire resource of advanced armors and controls and weapons, leaving your umpteen regiments of tanks with less capable equipment against Battlemechs but still quite lethal between themselves.  Sort of like TRO 1945 - they're capable against each other, but forget it when modern hardware comes into play.

I mean, it's not like we don't already have scarcity in the BT universe, I hold up myomers again as the only thing that Battlemechs seem to use that nothing else does.  It's not like there wouldn't be uses for it in vehicles - suspension systems, aiming mounts, even locomotion but we don't see that happening.

And again it'd allow you to have dozens of regiments of infantry and tanks that work just fine against each other, but when a Battlemech shows up on the field, you need another one to count it.  Now, granted, you could take your battlemech grade armor and weapons and make a tank from them - but that's one tank, just like one Battlemech, and not mass production.  And a 'Mech can go a LOT more places than a tank; it wouldn't make sense to make a single top-level tank with top-level armor and such in that setting.

Honestly, some of the infantry gets into intense silliness.  A BattleMech's armor is supposed to so super good that it's nigh-impenetrable against modern weapons...but if you look at the rules, a group of 28 Capellan infantry with carbon-reinforced fingernails can actually do one point of damage to a 'Mech.  That...is a giant no.

[Daemion]

I'm going with option C Daemion:

C: It's a game that didn't have a lot of thought put into it's background and instead of running around trying to patch holes in the story line, just decided to stick to it's guns.

Seriously, there's no point trying to rationalize it, because it's not rational. Jordan Weisman and co weren't either scientists, military specialists or experienced universe designers, they simply put it all together and then dusted off their hands. Nothing wrong with that, but the universe is manipulated to suit the game, not the other way around, and the game is all about small unit action.

I don't let the inconsistencies really bother me, or keep me from playing. This speculation is just something I like to do between games. It also helps in crafting a framework for campaign narratives.

For example, when you do have an invasion, there should be lots of things like supplemental forces - low grade militia stuff or mercs contracted to local concerns or vassal retinues - that might get in the way of the Star Group that you're making the string of games for. It helps build a little character that is unique to a campaign when the world you're invading for the Golden Throne has a bunch of these slow 100 ton turrets on treads that each only mount a single light gauss, and are maxed out in armor, but have a weakness in the form of a degrading threshold like Aerospace units with the optional rules. Watching the players come up with interesting ways to combat a focal point in a line of these things is just as much part of the game as is choosing which combination of stock designs you want to try this time around and being able to justify it by saying 'mercenaries'.

But, that's me. I've grown to like linked games and a narrative that goes on for a while, instead of one-off mission contracts for a merc band. As such, my tastes have been drifting toward ideas that facilitate that, while still leaving room for the random one-off that still has some sort of impact on the chosen alternate BTu it takes place in.

[SCC]

I don't get what you're saying about armor.  And come on, you're worried about people's suspension of disbelief in a FASA setting?  The point is that they can make weapons, armor, myomers, and such - just enough to make a few dozen proper battlemechs a year, or whatever fits your production state.  But that eats up the entire resource of advanced armors and controls and weapons, leaving your umpteen regiments of tanks with less capable equipment against Battlemechs but still quite lethal between themselves.  Sort of like TRO 1945 - they're capable against each other, but forget it when modern hardware comes into play.

A 'Mech needs new armor after every fight, ergo there is no shortage of armor so there is some to put on tanks. And the suspension of disbelief problem comes from an internal inconsistency in the setting, not something required for it to function.

[ANS Kamas P81]

A 'Mech needs new armor after every fight, ergo there is no shortage of armor so there is some to put on tanks. And the suspension of disbelief problem comes from an internal inconsistency in the setting, not something required for it to function.

You can still have a shortage of armor, you're just able to make enough to cover your 'Mech repairs.  Maybe small stockpiles, or sell it to mercs for huge markups.  Say you produce 10 mechs per year and enough armor for 11 or 12 - as long as you're not taking huge 'Mech casualties, you're doing fine.  You can also scavenge 'Mech armor from the battlefield, or your own damaged machines as well; having a shortage of armor doesn't mean you can't keep your current forces fulfilled.  You just can't make dozens of regiments of mech-armored tanks.  That's the point.  Just like with ammunition for advanced tech weapons, or those weapons themselves, they're all bottlenecks - but there's "just enough" being made because the process is long, difficult, and extremely expensive even for a thousand years from now.

[Alexander Knight]

And when the planetary government rebuilds their military they realize that the mistake was allowing the invaders and rely on nuclear tipped anti-shipping missiles to stop any future attacks.

Congratulations.  You've just made yourself too much trouble to conquer so now you're just going to get hit with "Asset Management Weapons" and become a radioactive wasteland.  See:  New Dallas and several other planets during the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars.

[SCC]

You can still have a shortage of armor, you're just able to make enough to cover your 'Mech repairs.  Maybe small stockpiles, or sell it to mercs for huge markups.  Say you produce 10 mechs per year and enough armor for 11 or 12 - as long as you're not taking huge 'Mech casualties, you're doing fine.  You can also scavenge 'Mech armor from the battlefield, or your own damaged machines as well; having a shortage of armor doesn't mean you can't keep your current forces fulfilled.  You just can't make dozens of regiments of mech-armored tanks.  That's the point.  Just like with ammunition for advanced tech weapons, or those weapons themselves, they're all bottlenecks - but there's "just enough" being made because the process is long, difficult, and extremely expensive even for a thousand years from now.

The only way this would work is if armor becomes the primary limiting factor on 'Mech construction/repair, which turns 'Mechs in Orgre from SJG game of the same name. No Lights, and Mediums are chancey.

Hm, how well would Orge maps work for BT?

Congratulations.  You've just made yourself too much trouble to conquer so now you're just going to get hit with "Asset Management Weapons" and become a radioactive wasteland.  See:  New Dallas and several other planets during the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars.

To do this the attacker would first have to reach orbit, which the new defenses are designed to stop.

[Alexander Knight]

To do this the attacker would first have to reach orbit, which the new defenses are designed to stop.

Uh.  No.  Planet-based defenses can't stop attackers from entering orbit and firing.  They could theoretically stop attackers from staying in orbit, but the only way to keep them from entering orbit in the first place is engaging with your own dropships.

[Nightlord01]

You can still have a shortage of armor, you're just able to make enough to cover your 'Mech repairs.  Maybe small stockpiles, or sell it to mercs for huge markups.  Say you produce 10 mechs per year and enough armor for 11 or 12 - as long as you're not taking huge 'Mech casualties, you're doing fine.  You can also scavenge 'Mech armor from the battlefield, or your own damaged machines as well; having a shortage of armor doesn't mean you can't keep your current forces fulfilled.  You just can't make dozens of regiments of mech-armored tanks.  That's the point.  Just like with ammunition for advanced tech weapons, or those weapons themselves, they're all bottlenecks - but there's "just enough" being made because the process is long, difficult, and extremely expensive even for a thousand years from now.

But why is the bottleneck there? There's a galaxy of raw materials, and if they are rare in current space, making less than say 1000 tons per year, the first state to explore and find more of it is going to win. It's a weakness of the system, and honestly, mental gymnastics to justify it is a waste of time. The canon fact remains that the armour used on vehicles, ASF and drop ships is identical to the mech grade armour.

This all worked beautifully with 3025, even with the low ball numbers, the setting works nicely because that derelict mech is worthwhile salvaging, just for the internal structure and fusion engine. Get to the era when the knowledge required to produce these things is possessed by every state, and you run into massive issues with production throughput. As soon as you start adding experimental versions there, you know it's bonkers because if you can barely keep up with usage, then you don't have any left for experimentation.

Whatever way you cut it, the setting and the recovered technology just don't line up. The rarity that made sense in 3025 is impossible to justify in 3075.

[SCC]

Uh.  No.  Planet-based defenses can't stop attackers from entering orbit and firing.  They could theoretically stop attackers from staying in orbit, but the only way to keep them from entering orbit in the first place is engaging with your own dropships.

Who said anything about putting them on the planet? They could well be launched from ASF or DS, or even from free floating missile launchers.

[Alexander Knight]

Who said anything about putting them on the planet? They could well be launched from ASF or DS, or even from free floating missile launchers.

I'm wondering how you keep scaling up the defenses here.  I mean, if it's this easy to get the horde of Vedettes, horde of nukes, and sufficient ASF for a single planet, then the interstellar empire should find it even easier to drown you in a horde of attackers.

[Col Toda]

Any well equipped Solaris VII Sable can scatch build an unique combat unit . It is a Slow process . The Great Turtle showcased hardened armor and X-PULSE Lasers . Solaris VII runs on an economic model that does not lend itself to field combat ubits . New mechs frequently take short cuts like using an old chassis . The Hatamoto using Charger parts is among the most famous example , but it is Everywhere . It is not enough to field the best you can develop but what can be maintained in the field .

[SCC]

I'm wondering how you keep scaling up the defenses here.  I mean, if it's this easy to get the horde of Vedettes, horde of nukes, and sufficient ASF for a single planet, then the interstellar empire should find it even easier to drown you in a horde of attackers.

This only works if there's a major limit on KF transport AND point defense is still ineffective, these go away and things are different.

[Dark Jackal]

And here in lies the problem, each Great House has the capacity to make a brand new mech from scratch, and to make pretty well as many of them as they want. It's no longer lostech, the technology is well known, just for some reason everyone is reluctant to build it. Why would you ever build a factory to make a tank from purely indigenous parts if you are only going to churn out 20 odd a year? That should be 20 a day!

The issue is that this is all irrational, because the universe is only half dynamic. Since there's a requirement to make every bit of equipment in game playable, it makes it hard to have a genuine improvement because of game balance. I'm not sure what the in-universe reason is for the small armies, as far as I know there really isn't one, each State should have thousands of divisions they produce themselves, but I suppose that would eliminate the whole a Company is a powerful force approach.

I don't doubt the numbers are a bit wanting in terms of production while trying to tie in Star Wars like epic fights and battles the universe throws into the mix. From the earliest stories in the universe to the Dark Age we've seen a trend of power creep (both in Tech and in numbers) that did not keep in line with the idea of scarcity and difficulty maintaining stellar empires central to the BT Theme of high tech protagonists using their wit and grit to keep their machines going in the face of odds stacked against them. Abrupt insertions into the story-line of large numbers of 'Mechs popping out of the wood work is as common to the franchise as is maintaining a level of scarcity and rarity the universe continually demands. The Clans, Comstar Legions, "new Star League", WoB assault, etc., have large amounts of tech and activity come in seemingly out of nowhere leaving readers with a sense of struggle to come up ways to have it make sense.

Kind of like hammering in a square peg into a round hole.

So yes, I do agree when someone sits down and number crunches that things don't add up as nicely as it should. I'm sure every person that wanted to write a BT story would like to have at least done once in their stories a large epic battle.

That being said, if we remove the sudden glut of things constantly showing up in the universe we can understand somewhat more profoundly where the actual limitations in production would come about if things worked close to reality. The main limitation to churning out massive amounts of units are actually three things (so far that I came up with writing this): inter-stellar trade, communications, and lack of direct influence in local labor. Anyone wants to add more is welcome.

The majority of BT is risk averse and do not have an economy that works like we're used to here where you try to anticipate fluctuations in demand and respond to market forces. Interstellar communications is much too slow to respond in real time to a galactic market on the scale and size of BattleTech. So as is trying to calculate demand, which is why we're doing this number crunching in the first place, and leaves the various corporations risk averse to over produce and gain market control unless they have inside knowledge to do so OR have some form of guarantee they won't go under in the process.

If we remove communications as a stumbling block we then have another bottleneck of sourcing materials once we're going interstellar. This puts an upper limitation to the risk on what a corporation would produce and what raw materials they will ask for given that it takes roughly 1-2 months to ship things via freight in BT one-way. Also, it is prohibitively expensive if you wanted smaller quantity items (like a production run of small lasers or MGs) as it is normally easier to ship via freight a large bulk of raw materials or a large amounts of finished product to market. You will lose out if you're in the middle given the amount of fees that add up while trying to quickly sell something to an available market.

Now we come to labor and probably the most ignored part of the universe and yet the most relevant. When a corporation is ready to produce things, now it comes down to gaining enough skilled workers to produce as many things needed to reduce costs and increase profits. So, the majority of laborers are seasonal staff hired when things are ready for assembly. Additional pressure is also applied when you factor in the lack of direct influence said House Lord or Clan Khans has in the every day life of the folks at the near-bottom peg of society. These folks political allegiance is to his/her local assembly on the local planet and not his house lord, empire, or clan domain. There is no actual way to influence labor than through an equivalent exchange for services and thus limits the ready population of skilled laborers as full time staff to produce things quickly to market. The majority of labor ends up other labor intensive occupations such as mining or logging or in sustainable occupations like agriculture. Most of the universe was written before the large influence of automation we have today. Even if we tried to reason automation into the picture the costs of transitioning from a colony of settlers to a completely automated society costs way too much to organically achieve unless it is plot written. IF it is automated fully, then the laborer is completely liberated and I will leave it to the reader to make conclusions on how the universe would work (or not work).

So it's not really under production but rather only producing what is needed being very close to Marxists type of economy where the worker is not bound as firmly to his/her means of production for survival and somewhat liberated from it. The poster boy of only producing what is needed is Clan Smoke Jaguar and probably the most true to marxists economy whether or not the authors writing the story arcs intended to be it.

I hope this helps as some food for thought until the pop corn is done from the microwave and another 10 legions of Space Ma... I mean 4 Regiments of 'Mech duke it out to advance the story line.  >:D

[guardiandashi]

I don't doubt the numbers are a bit wanting in terms of production while trying to tie in Star Wars like epic fights and battles the universe throws into the mix. From the earliest stories in the universe to the Dark Age we've seen a trend of power creep (both in Tech and in numbers) that did not keep in line with the idea of scarcity and difficulty maintaining stellar empires central to the BT Theme of high tech protagonists using their wit and grit to keep their machines going in the face of odds stacked against them. Abrupt insertions into the story-line of large numbers of 'Mechs popping out of the wood work is as common to the franchise as is maintaining a level of scarcity and rarity the universe continually demands. The Clans, Comstar Legions, "new Star League", WoB assault, etc., have large amounts of tech and activity come in seemingly out of nowhere leaving readers with a sense of struggle to come up ways to have it make sense.

Kind of like hammering in a square peg into a round hole.

So yes, I do agree when someone sits down and number crunches that things don't add up as nicely as it should. I'm sure every person that wanted to write a BT story would like to have at least done once in their stories a large epic battle.

That being said, if we remove the sudden glut of things constantly showing up in the universe we can understand somewhat more profoundly where the actual limitations in production would come about if things worked close to reality. The main limitation to churning out massive amounts of units are actually three things (so far that I came up with writing this): inter-stellar trade, communications, and lack of direct influence in local labor. Anyone wants to add more is welcome.

The majority of BT is risk averse and do not have an economy that works like we're used to here where you try to anticipate fluctuations in demand and respond to market forces. Interstellar communications is much too slow to respond in real time to a galactic market on the scale and size of BattleTech. So as is trying to calculate demand, which is why we're doing this number crunching in the first place, and leaves the various corporations risk averse to over produce and gain market control unless they have inside knowledge to do so OR have some form of guarantee they won't go under in the process.

If we remove communications as a stumbling block we then have another bottleneck of sourcing materials once we're going interstellar. This puts an upper limitation to the risk on what a corporation would produce and what raw materials they will ask for given that it takes roughly 1-2 months to ship things via freight in BT one-way. Also, it is prohibitively expensive if you wanted smaller quantity items (like a production run of small lasers or MGs) as it is normally easier to ship via freight a large bulk of raw materials or a large amounts of finished product to market. You will lose out if you're in the middle given the amount of fees that add up while trying to quickly sell something to an available market.

Now we come to labor and probably the most ignored part of the universe and yet the most relevant. When a corporation is ready to produce things, now it comes down to gaining enough skilled workers to produce as many things needed to reduce costs and increase profits. So, the majority of laborers are seasonal staff hired when things are ready for assembly. Additional pressure is also applied when you factor in the lack of direct influence said House Lord or Clan Khans has in the every day life of the folks at the near-bottom peg of society. These folks political allegiance is to his/her local assembly on the local planet and not his house lord, empire, or clan domain. There is no actual way to influence labor than through an equivalent exchange for services and thus limits the ready population of skilled laborers as full time staff to produce things quickly to market. The majority of labor ends up other labor intensive occupations such as mining or logging or in sustainable occupations like agriculture. Most of the universe was written before the large influence of automation we have today. Even if we tried to reason automation into the picture the costs of transitioning from a colony of settlers to a completely automated society costs way too much to organically achieve unless it is plot written. IF it is automated fully, then the laborer is completely liberated and I will leave it to the reader to make conclusions on how the universe would work (or not work).

So it's not really under production but rather only producing what is needed being very close to Marxists type of economy where the worker is not bound as firmly to his/her means of production for survival and somewhat liberated from it. The poster boy of only producing what is needed is Clan Smoke Jaguar and probably the most true to marxists economy whether or not the authors writing the story arcs intended to be it.

I hope this helps as some food for thought until the pop corn is done from the microwave and another 10 legions of Space Ma... I mean 4 Regiments of 'Mech duke it out to advance the story line.  >:D

this is an interesting view of the universe, but I think its not very accurate.

as I mentioned I always viewed the production limitations prior to "recent" times IE the 3040's and 50's as really being a symptom of how badly the innersphere was both mismanaged (on purpose) by the star league, and then smashed by the succession wars.

you have to remember that during the star league there were issues with directed economies that were so messed up that a planet could not feed its population but its only export product was shoes, and not just a few shoes but likely millions of pairs of shoes per year.

with that in mind what actually happened is you had many planets working much like having an entire city today known for a single product (kind of like Detroit and cars) I'm not saying that was their only product, but its what they were known for.

another factor is that while Lostech is tossed around as a big deal some of the novels commentary mention just how pervasive it is, but I'm not sure that a lot of people really think about what it really meant.

there was a mention in one of the blood of Kerensky novels that gave an example.  Phaelan was commenting that with the techs he was familiar with (kell hounds and wolfs dragoons) if he lost an actuator in his mech and the tech traced the fault back to a faulty chip in the actuator "control module" that modt techs would need an entire replacement actuator to fix the issue, wheras the clans would just replace the faulty chip, and then use a hand held programmer to load the correct programming into the replacement chip. the same "programmer" if the unit even had one, was a stationary console machine "think work bench or bigger"

what it amounts to is its not just a matter of loosing the information necessary, to build the battlemech, its more of an issue of not having the knowledge (and infrastructure) to build the tools to build the parts needed to build the tools to build the parts that go into the parts and tools to build the battlemechs.

another issue was that they didn't really have the knowledge (and capacity) to properly maintain many of the factories that were making the stuff, but ANY production was too critical to take it offline to try to analyze it (and risk breaking it) even if they were successful and were able to double (or more) their output.

[Sartris]

I'm wondering how you keep scaling up the defenses here.  I mean, if it's this easy to get the horde of Vedettes, horde of nukes, and sufficient ASF for a single planet, then the interstellar empire should find it even easier to drown you in a horde of attackers.

the conceit of the overwhelming defense conundrum relies on the conditions of 1) limited myomers and 2) limited KF drives (or some other factor that obviously keeps the in-universe number of jumpships small), per earlier in the thread. Changing either of these conditions moves the discussion outside the parameters of the original exchange.

while I like the myomer explanation,but it doesn't explain why conventional forces aren't in extreme abundance, especially on border worlds. Even if the attackers used nukes to clear a path, that doesn't prevent the defenders from having them too - and eventually those WMDs are going to take out your difficult-to-replace jumpships.

[Maingunnery]

the conceit of the overwhelming defense conundrum relies on the conditions of 1) limited myomers and 2) limited KF drives (or some other factor that obviously keeps the in-universe number of jumpships small), per earlier in the thread. Changing either of these conditions moves the discussion outside the parameters of the original exchange.

while I like the myomer explanation,but it doesn't explain why conventional forces aren't in extreme abundance, especially on border worlds. Even if the attackers used nukes to clear a path, that doesn't prevent the defenders from having them too - and eventually those WMDs are going to take out your difficult-to-replace jumpships.

Most worlds likely don't even have the industry to make combat vehicles, unless people want BAR4 vehs with rifle cannons.

[Dark Jackal]

this is an interesting view of the universe, but I think its not very accurate.

You cannot divorce the universe from being imposed by the limitations presented by communications, travel, and labor. To say these were not factors in trade would mean corporations have fore knowledge or fore sight into the future in order to break even and make a profit with any production item going to interstellar trade. Corporations in universe are largely independent and create sub-entities in states in order to go around trade embargoes to line it's own pockets with profits (usually C-bills or at least we assume).

Micro-economic realities imposed by a colonizing state varies in the universe and not quite up to the scale of galactic trade where military equipment production figures flows organically into the universe as a whole. They are hardly important to the flow of macro-economics, in so far as we can determine in a fictional universe whether a true market exists, and superfluous to know how well state sponsored colonization and forced "trade" factor into the whole. Bear in mind the Vindicator example I used earlier in the thread is an example of a state imposing it's will by stimulating trade, or what the Capellan state thinks as trade (good fluff), forcing a largely independent corporation to incorporate a weapon system that adds to the cost of the entire product. WE don't see that cost as the universe has a fixed price set by C-bills which ostensibly relates to the amount of Germanium that is in Fort Knox. There is nothing stopping said corporation in charging extra for any costs imposed by a state/entity.

Or in short, This deal's getting worse all the time!

[Alexander Knight]

while I like the myomer explanation,but it doesn't explain why conventional forces aren't in extreme abundance, especially on border worlds. Even if the attackers used nukes to clear a path, that doesn't prevent the defenders from having them too - and eventually those WMDs are going to take out your difficult-to-replace jumpships.

Aaaand we're back to the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars.  Understand that the "overwhelming defense" tactic was tried.  It resulted in nukes getting flung on both sides.  As humans in this setting lack the desire to a.) bomb civilization out of existence and b.) peacefully coexist, it was mutually decided to deliberately AVOID escalating to that level.

[SCC]

the conceit of the overwhelming defense conundrum relies on the conditions of 1) limited myomers and 2) limited KF drives (or some other factor that obviously keeps the in-universe number of jumpships small), per earlier in the thread. Changing either of these conditions moves the discussion outside the parameters of the original exchange.

while I like the myomer explanation,but it doesn't explain why conventional forces aren't in extreme abundance, especially on border worlds. Even if the attackers used nukes to clear a path, that doesn't prevent the defenders from having them too - and eventually those WMDs are going to take out your difficult-to-replace jumpships.

Yep, someone pointed out how if the defenders built huge numbers of of tanks the attackers would counter this with nukes, I responded that then the defenders will respond by build a nuclear armed deep space force, and you don't need to attack his JumpShips, just his inbound DropShips will be enough to stop the attack. Thoughts like this are a bad idea because they break the ground combat focus.

Problem with the myomer idea is that you end up comparing 'Mech ability per point of engine rating, and a Timber Wolf uses (say) 375 kg of myomers while 3 Locusts use 360, which would people want?

Most worlds likely don't even have the industry to make combat vehicles, unless people want BAR4 vehs with rifle cannons.

Pretty sure most worlds are more capable then then, BAR5 minimum, ranging up to BAR7.

Aaaand we're back to the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars.  Understand that the "overwhelming defense" tactic was tried.  It resulted in nukes getting flung on both sides.  As humans in this setting lack the desire to a.) bomb civilization out of existence and b.) peacefully coexist, it was mutually decided to deliberately AVOID escalating to that level.

Not if the there are no ground based defenses.

[Alexander Knight]

Yep, someone pointed out how if the defenders built huge numbers of of tanks the attackers would counter this with nukes, I responded that then the defenders will respond by build a nuclear armed deep space force, and you don't need to attack his JumpShips, just his inbound DropShips will be enough to stop the attack. Thoughts like this are a bad idea because they break the ground combat focus.

And then your space defenses get nukespammed right back.  Stuff a Mule full of AR10 launchers, or design a ship with strong anti-missile defenses and anti-ship weapons.  Nukes are not a panacea for planetary defense.

[SCC]

And then your space defenses get nukespammed right back.  Stuff a Mule full of AR10 launchers, or design a ship with strong anti-missile defenses and anti-ship weapons.  Nukes are not a panacea for planetary defense.

You think that the defenders can't do those things to? But my point is that the universe stops being about 'Mechs at this point.

[Alexander Knight]

You think that the defenders can't do those things to? But my point is that the universe stops being about 'Mechs at this point.

My point is there is no such thing as "absolute defense".  Trying to pretend otherwise is foolish.

[Maingunnery]

Pretty sure most worlds are more capable then then, BAR5 minimum, ranging up to BAR7.

Most worlds aren't core worlds, so why would they support heavy armor production or even be allowed to do that?

Not if the there are no ground based defenses.

The succession wars happened, even worlds with space-born defenses died.

[Sartris]

but with established in-universe limits on certain valuable assets, especially on the attacking side, there is prohibitively dangerous defense. (I never even considered substantial orbital defenses in my original hypothesis apart from aerospace fighters)

my point wasn't that overwhelming defense was obi-wan on the high ground, but that attempting to smash through a series of relatively low-tech strongholds would exhaust assets much faster than they could be produced.

[Maingunnery]

but with established in-universe limits on certain valuable assets, especially on the attacking side, there is prohibitively dangerous defense. (I never even considered substantial orbital defenses in my original hypothesis apart from aerospace fighters)

my point wasn't that overwhelming defense was obi-wan on the high ground, but that attempting to smash through a series of relatively low-tech strongholds would exhaust assets much faster than they could be produced.

I think you are over-estimating the effect of the low-tech defenses, a lot of them will be spread around, and they won't help if the attacker stops using conventional assets and starts using strategic assets.

[Sartris]

I think you are over-estimating the effect of the low-tech defenses, a lot of them will be spread around, and they won't help if the attacker stops using conventional assets and starts using strategic assets.

sure, if those assets are available. i was operating under the assumption that there just weren't that many post-2SW.

Regardless, this entire sidetrack wasn't even the purpose of why I brought it up in the first place - it was actually to discredit my own pet theory that myomer shortages were the explanation (or at least a major one) behind mech production bottlenecks.

[Daemion]

Regardless, this entire sidetrack wasn't even the purpose of why I brought it up in the first place - it was actually to discredit my own pet theory that myomer shortages were the explanation (or at least a major one) behind mech production bottlenecks.

Well, when you want to talk about one thing, it'll be surprising what all you missed when formulating your discussion.

Limitations on numbers brings up the questions of 'Why', but also, 'Why isn't something being done to get around those limitations?'

I just wanted to point out that Myomers aren't the only limiting factor, but one of many other little things that build into one heaping pile of the Trash Island that is limited Mech numbers. And, that brought me to want to add the notion that maybe there really is no bottleneck.

As for myomers in limited numbers, I kinda wonder if tanks also don't use them in the very same weapon systems mounted in their turrets. Recoil compensation for the heavy cannons. BT Tanks have a turret traverse rate which is far superior to what we have today. Myomers could be part of the reason. If that's the case, then the same bottleneck you're proposing applies to them, too.

Sure, the construction rules don't come right out and say that, but the don't deny it, either. We honestly don't really know what goes into a 27th century MBT until someone writes up a full break-down.

Same would go for Fighters of any type (Control Surface and thruster orientation actuators).

And, BattleArmor definitely has Myomers powering a suit's movement.

The sidetrack into escalating defense with cheaper stuff in vast quantities, and the fact that it hasn't been done in fiction since the Age of War, or the first two Succession Wars, or lately, the Jihad, suggests that the bottleneck really is more than mechanical. Not saying that there aren't some mechanical short-fallings somewhere for any particular factory or depot, but the lack of vast armies of combatants of a more conventional nature, or space-borne nature, definitely points more to social and economic restrictions.

Turns out the subject might be a little more complicated than 'missing widgets', right?

[SCC]

As for myomers in limited numbers, I kinda wonder if tanks also don't use them in the very same weapon systems mounted in their turrets. Recoil compensation for the heavy cannons. BT Tanks have a turret traverse rate which is far superior to what we have today. Myomers could be part of the reason. If that's the case, then the same bottleneck you're proposing applies to them, too.

Could be or could just be faster/better motors. Just realize that these other uses would use very little myomers compared to how much a 'Mech needs to just move.

[Jellico]

It tend to think the magic widget is far more squishy.

It is the MechWarrior.

The requirement is for a human you can plug into a neural helmet who can then drive a Mech.

Clearly they are not common and the existence of multi generational Warrior families suggests a genetic element. That the Clans are able to operate with a higher ratio of Warriors to population furthers this idea.

So I would suggest the production rates of the infrastructure is tailored to the number of potential pilots.

[SCC]

There's a problem with that thought: Life's Cheap, BattleMechs Ain't

[ANS Kamas P81]

There's a problem with that thought: Life's Cheap, BattleMechs Ain't

"Life of everyone else who isn't a mechwarrior"

[SCC]

Given the, lets call it ad copy, for the FedSuns Training Battalions I doubt there's a shortage of MechWarriors

[Daemion]

Yeah. People wouldn't have worried about dispossession if that really were the case.

 

[Rainbow 6]

Who said anything about putting them on the planet? They could well be launched from ASF or DS, or even from free floating missile launchers.

Then you go full WoB and fire asteroids from the edge of the solar system on a trajectory that intersects with the planetary orbit.

[SCC]

Apart from the fact that that doesn't get you a conquered planet, it may not work. A system with a large deep space force could very well detect, intercept and divert the asteroids before they got anywhere near the planet.

[Alexander Knight]

Apart from the fact that that doesn't get you a conquered planet, it may not work. A system with a large deep space force could very well detect, intercept and divert the asteroids before they got anywhere near the planet.

Correct.  It *does* tell other planets that if they're too much hassle to get conquered, they get destroyed.  The populace of the Inner Sphere has, by and large, decided that forcing attackers to escalate to the level of rendering a planet uninhabitable is a bad idea.

[SCC]

The problem is that such an asteroid would have to be escorted in by your fleet to stop their fleet from diverting it, which really makes your fundamental problem worse instead of better as the attacker, your now anchored to this hard to divert rock.

[haesslich]

The problem is that such an asteroid would have to be escorted in by your fleet to stop their fleet from diverting it, which really makes your fundamental problem worse instead of better as the attacker, your now anchored to this hard to divert rock.

Why does it need to be escorted? A fast moving object needs quite a lot of force to deflect it, as just shattering it means you've got the same mass spread out instead of hitting all in one spot.

Besides, just like now, you won't want to use just one rock. If your system is too hard to invade, I'm smashing the main planet at least and as much infrastructure as I can. Thus we need to overwhelm your defenses by hitting you with enough fire that you can't intercept everything. Especially if it's coming from multiple areas.

Jump points aren't just small circles where everyone is parked in spitting distance, not even jumps don't put you in the exact spot you're aiming for - it puts you in that star system in a fairly large area of space.

Sure, you may see the jump emergence wave in minutes if you've got forces station keeping in the general area, but it'll still take hours to get there given the vastness of space. More than enough time to launch a swarm of a few hundred Killer Whales on a ballistic course for important targets. Or I can launch rocks from outside the system.

Or I can use suicide ships jumping into the pirate points to launch everything they have. If I'm not in a mood to conquer because I need to make an example, I'm going all out, 1SW style. NBC and maybe some drones to record the results so I can share them with my next target.

This isn't Star Trek or Star Wars with sensor suites that use FTL tracking to see things in real time across whole star systems while being able to cross them in minutes.

[Nightlord01]

Correct.  It *does* tell other planets that if they're too much hassle to get conquered, they get destroyed.  The populace of the Inner Sphere has, by and large, decided that forcing attackers to escalate to the level of rendering a planet uninhabitable is a bad idea.

While this is sort of true, it's not really. The only thing that has convinced the planetary populations to simply accept new rulers has been the relative lack of change that comes about with the new government, not the threat of annihilation. You start throwing that around and the reaction is far more complex than you could ever imagine.

Essentially your course of action is a re-write of the old Nuclear Utilization Theorists agenda, where as the opposing approach is the Mutually Assured Destruction agenda. They are both attempts to reduce to simplicity something that is inherently complex, and both are right and wrong in their own way.

[Nightlord01]

Why does it need to be escorted? A fast moving object needs quite a lot of force to deflect it, as just shattering it means you've got the same mass spread out instead of hitting all in one spot.

Besides, just like now, you won't want to use just one rock. If your system is too hard to invade, I'm smashing the main planet at least and as much infrastructure as I can. Thus we need to overwhelm your defenses by hitting you with enough fire that you can't intercept everything. Especially if it's coming from multiple areas.

Jump points aren't just small circles where everyone is parked in spitting distance, not even jumps don't put you in the exact spot you're aiming for - it puts you in that star system in a fairly large area of space.

Sure, you may see the jump emergence wave in minutes if you've got forces station keeping in the general area, but it'll still take hours to get there given the vastness of space. More than enough time to launch a swarm of a few hundred Killer Whales on a ballistic course for important targets. Or I can launch rocks from outside the system.

Or I can use suicide ships jumping into the pirate points to launch everything they have. If I'm not in a mood to conquer because I need to make an example, I'm going all out, 1SW style. NBC and maybe some drones to record the results so I can share them with my next target.

This isn't Star Trek or Star Wars with sensor suites that use FTL tracking to see things in real time across whole star systems while being able to cross them in minutes.

I suppose the real question here is: Why are you not in a mood to conquer? What are you going to do once the reprisals start rolling in?

The only way you can possibly make this work is if you have total military superiority, as soon as your opponents can hit back with equivalent means, it's not a good policy.

[SCC]

Why does it need to be escorted? A fast moving object needs quite a lot of force to deflect it, as just shattering it means you've got the same mass spread out instead of hitting all in one spot.

What is this fast you speak off? We're talking about an object weighing 100's of millions, if not billions, of tons, by the time you've built enough engines to get it accelerating fast enough to get the speeds your talking about it's probably more cost effective to build enough WarShips to invade the system. And you've got to hope that someone doesn't stumble onto your weapon before you launch it.

Besides, just like now, you won't want to use just one rock. If your system is too hard to invade, I'm smashing the main planet at least and as much infrastructure as I can. Thus we need to overwhelm your defenses by hitting you with enough fire that you can't intercept everything. Especially if it's coming from multiple areas.

And all the problems above just got worse.

Or I can use suicide ships jumping into the pirate points to launch everything they have. If I'm not in a mood to conquer because I need to make an example, I'm going all out, 1SW style. NBC and maybe some drones to record the results so I can share them with my next target.

I having trouble here, why doesn't the planet have anti-missile defenses to stop stuff like this?

This isn't Star Trek or Star Wars with sensor suites that use FTL tracking to see things in real time across whole star systems while being able to cross them in minutes.

BT really fails the realism test here, for a projectile of the size your talking about, with the acceleration you want, the drive flare will be visible throughout the ENTIRE SOLAR SYSTEM, it's a giant SOLAR FLARE, it may well be visible from the planet without assistance IN BROAD DAYLIGHT!

[ANS Kamas P81]

BT really fails the realism test

Across the board, in all fairness.

[Alexander Knight]

I having trouble here, why doesn't the planet have anti-missile defenses to stop stuff like this?

Because I have ten planets building weapons to crush your one planet?

[Nightlord01]

Because I have ten planets building weapons to crush your one planet?

How are you going to transport them?

Every single response in this vein has always assumed military superiority or supremacy. If you can't generate that, you are screwed.

BT really fails the realism test here, for a projectile of the size your talking about, with the acceleration you want, the drive flare will be visible throughout the ENTIRE SOLAR SYSTEM, it's a giant SOLAR FLARE, it may well be visible from the planet without assistance IN BROAD DAYLIGHT!

Not to mention the weeks/months it will take to actually achieve impact...

[Alexander Knight]

How are you going to transport them?

Every single response in this vein has always assumed military superiority or supremacy. If you can't generate that, you are screwed.

Not to mention the weeks/months it will take to actually achieve impact...

How is he getting all these toys to defend his planet?  The fallacy here is you're acting like there is no limit to the defenses that can be built, but requiring one for the attackers.

[SCC]

How is he getting all these toys to defend his planet?  The fallacy here is you're acting like there is no limit to the defenses that can be built, but requiring one for the attackers.

The specific thought that started this vein of discussion was that there was a limit on the number of K-F Drives limits the size of attacking forces, which is why the attacking forces are so small. The problem with this is that it only limits the size of the attackers force, and not anything else.

[Nightlord01]

How is he getting all these toys to defend his planet?  The fallacy here is you're acting like there is no limit to the defenses that can be built, but requiring one for the attackers.

I don't speak for SCC, he doesn't speak for me. I've only talked about the difficulty and time required to put the plan into effect, not potential defenses. So my question remains, how are you going to transport these asteroid simulating weapons? The short answer is, you aren't. After that, your entire plan falls apart.

An asteroid attack is a wildly impractical attack, requiring a specific mindset and endgame of the attacking faction. You have to be willing to wipe out potentially trillions of people, when you take your own casualties from the inevitable reprisal into consideration. You then have to only care that the planet is gone, you can't want anything on the planet, or to use it yourself. The only faction I'm aware of in game that explicitly used this attack was WoB, and things didn't work out too well for them in the long run.

[Daemion]

An asteroid attack is a wildly impractical attack, requiring a specific mindset and endgame of the attacking faction. You have to be willing to wipe out potentially trillions of people, when you take your own casualties from the inevitable reprisal into consideration. You then have to only care that the planet is gone, you can't want anything on the planet, or to use it yourself. The only faction I'm aware of in game that explicitly used this attack was WoB, and things didn't work out too well for them in the long run.

And, yet, the WoB pulled it off against Taurus during the Jihad. Nobody knew it was them, either, until someone said something after the fact.

So, we have in-universe precedent.

[Alexander Knight]

I don't speak for SCC, he doesn't speak for me. I've only talked about the difficulty and time required to put the plan into effect, not potential defenses. So my question remains, how are you going to transport these asteroid simulating weapons? The short answer is, you aren't. After that, your entire plan falls apart.

Me?  I'm using nukes.

[SCC]

That's actually a workable method of getting the asteroid moving but the whole thing turns into an infiltration operation rather then a military assault.

[Daemion]

I think it didn't matter to the WoB, as they weren't coming in to pick up the pieces. Pretty easy to set up a long-term bomb like that and walk away, knowing that the enemy will be too preoccupied to come meddling in other, more important matters. And, it'll make framing someone else easier if they have a long-standing hatred of someone else, like an interstellar neighbor.

[SCC]

My point/thought was that in a system like Taurus that an active deep space industry there's likely civilian companies moving asteroids around all the time, so such an activity is unlikely to be looked at too closely, unless someone owns the rights to that asteroid. So what you do is set up a shell company which purchases the rights to the rock(s) in question, have it carry out the initial maneuvering detonations and then collapse. Later on a second set of charges go off, putting it on it's final, world killing, trajectory.

[Nightlord01]

And, yet, the WoB pulled it off against Taurus during the Jihad. Nobody knew it was them, either, until someone said something after the fact.

So, we have in-universe precedent.

Noting how WoB ended up, I don't think that's a ringing endorsement.

[Nightlord01]

My point/thought was that in a system like Taurus that an active deep space industry there's likely civilian companies moving asteroids around all the time, so such an activity is unlikely to be looked at too closely, unless someone owns the rights to that asteroid. So what you do is set up a shell company which purchases the rights to the rock(s) in question, have it carry out the initial maneuvering detonations and then collapse. Later on a second set of charges go off, putting it on it's final, world killing, trajectory.

Allegedly, the Taurians found fragments from dropship engines manufactured in the FedSuns, to be honest, if you could possibly find fragments after something has gone through atmospheric entry, I'd be amazed. The impact and friction would be more than enough to blitz any evidence, it would vaporise and then slowly fall back to the planet.

[ANS Kamas P81]

So what about 'Mech production and the bottlenecks thereof...

[Kidd]

First you have to figure out the context of the question. Are you trying to project Battletech as it should be given the factors fluffed out? or are you trying to find the factors which create the Battletech of canon?

If the former, you should be taking known factors and creating your hypothetical Battletech regardless of what the outcome is - aka logical induction. If the latter, you should be observing the known Battletech universe and hypothesising what factors affected the universe in what ways to create the status quo - aka logical deduction.

Tank spam and rods-from-god superweapons is the former - the known factors seemingly point towards this scenario, but it is at odds with the Battletech universe as canonised.

Limited armies and fighting for a planet on the ground rather than raze it from space is the latter - this is what happened, and your task is to figure out what are the factors which led to it being this way.

In your fan-theory-crafting, know where you are headed and how you're getting there, and you won't get lost in logically dissonant what-ifs and non-sequiturs.

So what about 'Mech production and the bottlenecks thereof...

Approaching the question using the deductive approach - Yes, there are widgets bottlenecking Mech production, as well as significant environmental factors.

Widgets probably include - neurohelmet interfaces, myomer, gyros, environmental sealing - all equipment that conventional vehicles don't need.

Environmental factors probably include - expense of Mech production, technical or manufacturing issues, relative lack of Mechwarriors versus vehicle crews, systemic inefficiencies due to colonisation and FTL limitations.

That last factor is underlooked generally in fan-theorising, but IMHO is very relevant to the system - possibly, a vast amount of resources and manpower goes towards supporting human existence, and also is lost in the inefficiencies of data and resource movement throughout vast interstellar empires.

[Maingunnery]

The specific thought that started this vein of discussion was that there was a limit on the number of K-F Drives limits the size of attacking forces, which is why the attacking forces are so small. The problem with this is that it only limits the size of the attackers force, and not anything else.

In an interstellar setting such as BT the attacker might have a far larger and developed industrial/technological base. Thus can be invade with far more effective forces, allowing them to make any defense non-effective. The defenders also have the issue of having to defend a lot of space & surface area, this severely reduced the number of forces that can be at each site. 

[Tai Dai Cultist]

OK, we all know that 'Mech production is limited by some unknown factor......

......So what do people think is the situation?

I've got my own headcanon to explain why the effectively infinite raw resources of the 1000+ inhabited star systems of the Inner Sphere result in the extraordinarily finite numbers of mechs in the five Great House Armies, and here it is: House Armies are the tip of the iceberg when it comes to numbers.

So before delving into headcanon, here's some foundational thoughts that I'd like to lay out that I feel are, despite the vagueness of FASAnomics, fairly indisputable.  In order to manufacture X amount of 'Mechs, Y amount of time is required as well as Z amounts of capital, raw resources, and components (can even call them MechWidgets, if you prefer). 

Ok, so now into headcanon/interpretation.  To me, the mineral resources of the Inner Sphere is in practical terms infinite.  The availability of Z won't be a bottleneck, although additional factors like transportation and component/MechWidget manufacturing certainly could be.  And their lack of availability in the SW era DOES largely satisfy a bottleneck of mech production all by themselves, imo.  Of course I vocally complain about BattleTech 'jumping the shark' post 4th SW, and this is one example of what I mean when I complain about that.  TRO after TRO gets published of new mechs, and suddenly this alone is no longer satisfactory in explaining manufacturing bottlenecks.

To futher explain "low" mech production numbers, especially in the TRO treadmill eras, a bit more is necessary.  I choose an explanation that is backwards compatible with the SW era, so that I don't have to rely on something undescribed going on to satisfy my explanation(s).  That extra thing is seeing industry through a lens that mates the BTU to the Age of Sail rather than the 20th century. 

A key facet of this is mech factories, in my mind, aren't constantly cranking out mechs in the way modern car manufacturers do.  They build them in production runs of pre-planned number, and once the run is up, no more mechs are ever made of that run.  (Of course, there could always be subsequent runs produced.)  The capital required for variable Z would never be fronted by the manufacturer, but would instead be supplied by investors. These investors naturally include the logistical arms of the various House Armies, but critically to my POV it's not limited to them.  Corporations, powerful nobles, arms dealers, hell even pirates themselves through sufficiently complicated shell companies "buy" their mechs from a manufacturer prior to the mech ever even being manufactured.  They shell out the cash, and then wait for ultimate delivery.  (As a matter of fact, piracy being what it is in the BTU, I can't see any major manufacturing enterprise being ultimately sustainable unless it's all on a "pay up front" arrangement.  If the shipment gets hijacked and the buyer never gets delivery, the buyer is holding the bag rather than the manufacturer... and the manufacturer stays in business to "sell" a replacement item...)

So with that view, mech factories conceivably sit idle some of the time waiting for enough backers to fund the next production run of X mechs.  And then a fraction of X never goes into the House Armies, even once the run is underway.  Another thing I like about this view is it's very handy in explaining the bewildering array of mech variants.  If a mech published in TRO 3058 has been available for almost 100 years, it ought to have staggering numbers if it's been in constant production.  On the other hand, if there's only been a half dozen to a dozen production runs of that particular mech over the near-century, it is easier to reconcile why there's not more of that mech represented on the RATs/in the artwork/mentioned in the era lore.  With House Mech armies being small in the Dark Age, you logically can't be dominated numerous mech chassis from ages past, not to mention being thematically wrong since there's TRO3145 to cover that era's "prominent" mechs....

[2ndAcr]

 I have always, in my mind, after the 1st and 2nd SW, mech manufacturers had to almost hand build the mechs. Maybe the rapid automated assembly lines of the Star League era broke down, where a factory used to crank out a thousand mechs a year per line, by the 3rd SW they were down to 100 mechs a year, per line if they were lucky.

 Then the Helm core, in the mid late 3040, allowed the manufacturers to repair/replace those broken lines and hello dolly they are cranking out almost SL quantities per year. That helped me rationalize the sudden increase in mech production around 3050.

[The_Livewire]

A key facet of this is mech factories, in my mind, aren't constantly cranking out mechs in the way modern car manufacturers do.  They build them in production runs of pre-planned number, and once the run is up, no more mechs are ever made of that run.  (Of course, there could always be subsequent runs produced.)  The capital required for variable Z would never be fronted by the manufacturer, but would instead be supplied by investors. These investors naturally include the logistical arms of the various House Armies, but critically to my POV it's not limited to them.  Corporations, powerful nobles, arms dealers, hell even pirates themselves through sufficiently complicated shell companies "buy" their mechs from a manufacturer prior to the mech ever even being manufactured.  They shell out the cash, and then wait for ultimate delivery.  (As a matter of fact, piracy being what it is in the BTU, I can't see any major manufacturing enterprise being ultimately sustainable unless it's all on a "pay up front" arrangement.  If the shipment gets hijacked and the buyer never gets delivery, the buyer is holding the bag rather than the manufacturer... and the manufacturer stays in business to "sell" a replacement item...)

So Mech runs by Kickstarter. :-)

[Iceweb]

So with that view, mech factories conceivably sit idle some of the time waiting for enough backers to fund the next production run of X mechs.

The problem I see with this explanation is that each faction wants every and any mech they can get for the house armies. 
I can't see that house operating in standard economic conditions wouldn't have a deal with any factory that they would fund any production run to try to get more mechs than their foes. 
But then again FASAnomics is what it is. 

My headcanon includes that some of the issue is that just about every mech requires some hand tooling to make it some much more effective than a combat vehicle. 
I think this slows down lines significantly to explain the rarity of mechs but it is not the only answer as to why mechs are so rare. 

[Tai Dai Cultist]

The problem I see with this explanation is that each faction wants every and any mech they can get for the house armies. 
I can't see that house operating in standard economic conditions wouldn't have a deal with any factory that they would fund any production run to try to get more mechs than their foes. 
But then again FASAnomics is what it is. 

My headcanon includes that some of the issue is that just about every mech requires some hand tooling to make it some much more effective than a combat vehicle. 
I think this slows down lines significantly to explain the rarity of mechs but it is not the only answer as to why mechs are so rare.

That works with what I was laying out, not against it.

House Steiner: We want more mechs!
Defiance Industries:   Ok, give us Z and we'll get right on it.
House Steiner: Will you take less than Z? We can give you less than Z right now.
Defiance Industries: It takes Z.  Let us know when you scrape it together.  Or you know, get some other backers to fund the run immediately.  If you provide most of Z, you'll get most of the output...

With regards to a House Army "wanting" all the mechs inside its borders... every Great House has always been fairly happy letting petty nobles and planetary indig forces have their own mechs.  Even corporations.  The only time we've ever seen "mechs belong in military hands only" in the Inner Sphere was inside the Republic.

[Iceweb]

Defiance Industries:   Ok, give us Z and we'll get right on it.
House Steiner: Will you take less than Z? We can give you less than Z right now.

With regards to a House Army "wanting" all the mechs inside its borders... every Great House has always been fairly happy letting petty nobles and planetary indig forces have their own mechs.  Even corporations.  The only time we've ever seen "mechs belong in military hands only" in the Inner Sphere was inside the Republic.

My issue is I can't see a time where Steiner can't come up with Z 
Even every factory trying to get its own Z for a run I don't see Steiner not finding a way to come up with all those Z's 
Sure they may say to the factory it only takes Z-N to make the run you want too much profit and negotiating. 
Sure when Factory CEO is ready to run out some Awesomes their age old deals means that Baron Shinypants gets first dibs at buying the first 10% of the run, and Evil Corp has a contract that they always have 5% of the run for their security forces, so the house can't get the whole end product because other people have dibs on some. 
But I don't ever see a house not saying you wanna do a run we will give you the cash for every mech you can sell us. 
That again is limited to trusted and bonded factories as I am sure there are always scams trying to get cash up front for fake mech runs and such but that isn't what is being talked about here. 
Of course the answer of because FASAnomics is always a valid counter and all I can do against that is shrug my shoulders.   

I just don't see any house not being willing to spend reasonable amounts on any mech they can get and/or build.

[SCC]

The problem then is why do you have so many different models, all the (IS) factions currently have designed in service then they actually need and I'm pretty sure a proper accounting will reveal that they are buying several designs that fill each tactical niche.

[Kovax]

The problem then is why do you have so many different models, all the (IS) factions currently have designed in service then they actually need and I'm pretty sure a proper accounting will reveal that they are buying several designs that fill each tactical niche.

Easily explained by the purchasers being from different military districts, or competing services within the military.  One wants one thing, and the other requires a slightly different set of specs.

It could also be due to buying what's available, rather than what's wanted or needed.  Your TO&E calls for 4 Warhammers, 4 Centurions, 2 Dervishes, 2 Shadow Haws, and a lance of assorted scouts.  The only factories within 2 jumps of you sell Trebuchets and Clints.  You order a Trebuchet and a Clint from them to plug any holes in the TO&E until/unless you can get what you need.  The military district next to yours ends up with a couple of Quickdraws and a Griffin by the same mechanism, because that's what they can get on short notice.  MOST of what you and they field will be according to the official guidelines, but between those "fill ins" and battlefield salvage, there are going to be a lot of exceptions to every rule.

The gradual wearing out of the ancient production lines means that more and more of the process has to be either done manually or "corrected" after manufacture, so the 'Mechs rolling off the lines are taking increasing amounts of time to actually complete.  A few lines have deteriorated beyond the point where they can be used.  Sure, you can still crank out 1000 'Mech left arms a month, but you won't have left legs to go with them; those have to be built mostly by hand.

Once the Helm Core is discovered, and the data that it contains means that some of the production lines can once again be repaired, the limitations become exotic raw materials and transporting those materials to the factories.  Suddenly, 'Mechs aren't rare anymore.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

My issue is I can't see a time where Steiner can't come up with Z.

I'm sure they can, some of the time.  Sometimes, even then, they'd prefer to split Z up across Defiance and Coventry.  If investors outside the LCAF pick up the slack on those runs, then the LCAF is getting mechs of 2 different capabilities for the investment of 1.

I just don't see any house not being willing to spend reasonable amounts on any mech they can get and/or build.

Depends on what's reasonable.  Again, that's FASAnomics, but Great Houses have lots of things to spend on outside the military budget (particularly during the Robbing-Peter-to-pay-Paul days of the SW era).   Even in the case of the militaristic Houses like Davion and Kurita that throw good money after bad at the military... only a fraction of that money can go towards procurement when you've got an existing, bloated military machine to maintain.

[Garrand]

Personally I think there are a couple of logical explanations for the low numbers of mechs produced in the IS post SL.

One is the idea of a sufficient population base to maintain & manufacture advanced technologies. FREX, to manufacture spears might only require the population of a village to produce, needing only the services of a sufficiently skilled blacksmith, a nearby source of iron & wood to produce. To make full plate armor might require a town to produce, while primitive gunpowder artillery might require a large town or group of towns, etc. So to produce battlemechs might require a group of well-populated worlds working together, not just to provide resources, but also provide the sufficient knowledge bases & technological support from other industries (from coffee makers to myomer manufacturers) to support the techs & engineers actually building mechs. This also explains the slow output of jumpships as well as other high tech items...

But keep in mind that the Battletech setting is still (even with the tech renaissance of the '50s on) a post-apocalyptic setting. The 1st & 2nd SW were disastrous on population levels, with entire planets becoming depopulated, key industries destroyed, a rapidly shrinking tax base for the Successor States to draw on (not just from dead populations but from rapidly shrinking economies). In my mind, the IS never really recovered from this destruction, and even with the tech renaissance of the '50s on, while the tech was recovered & the knowledge base gained more depth, there still wasn't the population levels sufficient to churn out the supporting industries & tech needed to ramp up production to SL era levels, though it was getting better...

Also I think transportation is a big bottleneck too. Just like mech production, the destruction of the 1st & 2nd SW was disastrous for jumpship construction. And while this too got better, it is IMHO no where near the same levels of SL production.

And then the Jihad happened & the resent button was hit...

As far as actual production runs are concerned, the Houses probably have an agreement that mechs produced by local manufacturers can be bought by: House militaries, landed nobility/militias, authorized corporate security interests, & currently active & contracted mercs within the house borders. There may be a few other approved channels (i.e. Diplan selling Jenners to the FWL, since the DC & the FWL are not direct enemies), but I think that covers the major customers for mech production...

EDIT: also agree that mech production is really, really complex, much moreso than tanks or "conventional" units. If you don't have a SL era production line (i.e. Valkyries), then you're building them by hand & that greatly reduces what you can churn out. The Helm memory core probably had more than ER LL specs on it, but also complex robotic manufacturing technology too...

Damon.

[Maingunnery]

Besides the design complexity, I also think that the materials and components of 'Mechs are also more refined.

Compare them to Primitive Mechs:
- Primitives can be made in more factories (thus likely use more common, lower grade components)
- Primitives can be produced at a faster rate (A more simple internal design, allowing for faster assembly)

[SCC]

Easily explained by the purchasers being from different military districts, or competing services within the military.  One wants one thing, and the other requires a slightly different set of specs.

It could also be due to buying what's available, rather than what's wanted or needed.  Your TO&E calls for 4 Warhammers, 4 Centurions, 2 Dervishes, 2 Shadow Haws, and a lance of assorted scouts.  The only factories within 2 jumps of you sell Trebuchets and Clints.  You order a Trebuchet and a Clint from them to plug any holes in the TO&E until/unless you can get what you need.  The military district next to yours ends up with a couple of Quickdraws and a Griffin by the same mechanism, because that's what they can get on short notice.  MOST of what you and they field will be according to the official guidelines, but between those "fill ins" and battlefield salvage, there are going to be a lot of exceptions to every rule.

The gradual wearing out of the ancient production lines means that more and more of the process has to be either done manually or "corrected" after manufacture, so the 'Mechs rolling off the lines are taking increasing amounts of time to actually complete.  A few lines have deteriorated beyond the point where they can be used.  Sure, you can still crank out 1000 'Mech left arms a month, but you won't have left legs to go with them; those have to be built mostly by hand.

Once the Helm Core is discovered, and the data that it contains means that some of the production lines can once again be repaired, the limitations become exotic raw materials and transporting those materials to the factories.  Suddenly, 'Mechs aren't rare anymore.

Not what I'm talking about, plus I doubt that military supplies are sourced like that, at least outside of the FWL.

I'm talking about how in TRO3025 along you have the Dervish and the Trebuchet, both jump-capable fire support 'Mechs, no faction is going to be buying both under the system you describe.

[Rainbow 6]

I'm talking about how in TRO3025 along you have the Dervish and the Trebuchet, both jump-capable fire support 'Mechs, no faction is going to be buying both under the system you describe.

With those two examples it wouldn't be an issue though as the only Dervish factory is inside the Federated Suns and the Trebuchet is only being built in the Free Worlds League so only those factions are getting the direct benefit of the production runs, although the Lyran Commonwealth were buying some from the Suns and the Draconis Combine from the Free Worlds League.