Author Topic: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?  (Read 15837 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12011
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #570 on: 18 March 2017, 13:04:12 »
There's only one RPG system I've ever heard about with that degree of complexity: FATAL.  And if you try to run a game of it, you will lose your friends, your SO will leave you, and you'll probably be forced to go live under a bridge somewhere with only the voices in your head (who all sound like Gilbert Gottfried) to keep you company.

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

You can kill people with kindness, but PPCs are more reliable.

Matti

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3799
  • In Rory we trust
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #571 on: 18 March 2017, 14:27:56 »
Multi-Classing: Why would anyone single class? Ever?
Because GM say so? What, haven't you ever met GM who doesn't allow dual-/multiclassing?
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

TigerShark

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4366
    • MekWars: Dominion
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #572 on: 18 March 2017, 15:44:59 »
Edit: ...
« Last Edit: 18 March 2017, 16:01:55 by TigerShark »
  W W W . M E K W A R S - D O M I N I O N . C O M

  "You will fight to the last soldier, and when you die, I will call upon your damned soul to speak horrible curses at the enemy."
     - Orders of Emperor Stefan Amaris to his troops

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7980
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #573 on: 18 March 2017, 15:46:27 »
So much for stepping away. ::)
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12011
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #574 on: 18 March 2017, 16:22:00 »
Because GM say so? What, haven't you ever met GM who doesn't allow dual-/multiclassing?

Or just because not every player wants to be super-optimized.

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

You can kill people with kindness, but PPCs are more reliable.

iamfanboy

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1560
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #575 on: 18 March 2017, 16:35:35 »
There's only one RPG system I've ever heard about with that degree of complexity: FATAL.  And if you try to run a game of it, you will lose your friends, your SO will leave you, and you'll probably be forced to go live under a bridge somewhere with only the voices in your head (who all sound like Gilbert Gottfried) to keep you company.
Now, now, I'm sure the four people who play FATAL enjoy something about the game as they use their own tears of loneliness to lubricate group fap sessions while they recite how many imaginary women their characters have raped.

Huh. I wonder if anyone has ever thought about creating a FATAL MMORPG as a honeypot trap for all the online misogynist jerks? If it existed, we'd probably never hear from them again until the news reports about dehydrated corpses being hauled en masse from parent's basements across the country...

It's a core element of the game. Not allowing a core element is certainly within the rights of a DM, but he's now created a house rule and that's not something used to evaluate a game, IMO. If you have to house rule something, the core element doesn't work or isn't very good.
Agreed, but it is a problem stretching back to 1e - the basic classes like Fighter or Thief can't keep up past a certain point (level 12+) without being able to throw at least some spells. Oh, what's this, there's a magic using class called bard with both fighter and thief in it that I can choose to level up in..? 2e didn't help it very well, and 3e made it more complicated with the alleged fix of prestige classes.

Another good thing for me about 5e is that multiclassing isn't necessary to get the most out a character. If you want a fighter/mage, pick Eldritch Knight as your Martial Archetype - yes, you're a 1/3 caster instead of a 1/2, but you get other benefits directly related to what a fighter/mage would want.

Sticking with a class to level 20 generally gets a strong benefit - though one thing that appeals to me as a munchkin and fills me with regret as a DM is the Warlock class. Because it recharges its spell slots on a short rest, a lot of long rest dependent classes will take a dip into Warlock so they can cast more spells more often - or in the case of Paladins, use them to fuel Smites. That neglects the flavor of a Warlock, making a pact with a being much stronger than yourself just for a chance to use magic without long study or birthright...

The short/long rest gap, in which some classes are long rest dependent and others are short rest, is the one place where 5e's balance falls down a bit - and it's a big problem for a Gritty Realism game.

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7980
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #576 on: 18 March 2017, 17:09:02 »
Easy fix: Warlocks' short rests only recharge their warlock spell slots.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

iamfanboy

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1560
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #577 on: 18 March 2017, 19:23:47 »
Easy fix: Warlocks' short rests only recharge their warlock spell slots.
And like all easy fixes, patches the hole but doesn't fill it.

The problem is that not all classes have good short/long rest balance, the solution should be to bring them all on par with each other. Since my preferred method is to buff, not nerf, my proposals earlier - that a Paladin's lay on hands refilled with short rest, that a paladin or cleric can swap channel divinity for spell levels like a sorcerer (but not identically), that a sorcerer regens sorcery points at a low rate - are interesting. It's a lot harder to decide if my Vengeance Paladin needs spell slots for smiting, or would prefer to save my Channel Divinity for Vow of Enmity.

In a normal short/rest paradigm the classes are well balanced against each other, but in a Gritty one the Fighter, Wizard, Monk, Land Druid, Rogue, and Bard are just way better than the other classes.

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7980
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #578 on: 18 March 2017, 19:34:18 »
I disagree.  The problem isn't that classes have different short/long rest balances, the problem is that the book doesn't distinguish between spell slots for different classes if someone has multi-classed.  The balance problem vanishes like it never existed if you segregate them such that Warlock spell slots expended recharge at Warlock speed, Wizard spell slots expended recharge at Wizard speed.  It requires keeping track of which spell slots have been spent beyond 1st/2nd/3rd, admittedly, but I think that's something of a fair tradeoff if you want to run a hybrid of two different kinds of spellcasters.

I also submit that if you're using optional rules to make things harder of course it's going to introduce problems that don't exist in the normal set. :P  It's like using Enhanced Vehicle Survivability from TacOps and complaining that vehicles are suddenly better than their BV.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Matti

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3799
  • In Rory we trust
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12011
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #580 on: 20 March 2017, 02:01:09 »
That's a classic.

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

You can kill people with kindness, but PPCs are more reliable.

Kojak

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3327
  • Don't everyone thank me at once.
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #581 on: 20 March 2017, 03:31:17 »
Recently, for the first time in my life, I've been playing in a sizable D&D 5E group; we meet weekly and it's generally about five or six of us plus the DM. I'm a total newb to D&D, and outside of BattleTech, my only other roleplaying experience is the Eclipse Phase campaign I've been GMing for the last six or seven months. Anyway, it's a pretty great group, really chill bunch of dudes; it's the kind of game where everyone is passing around beers and blunts and glasses of scotch. Over the past few sessions, the group has pulled what one player described as a "double Yojimbo", and in the last session I basically convinced the rest of the group to help me instigate a revolution in the city our campaign has been based around. I'm really excited to see where it goes this week.

My character, FTR, is a Level 4 half-Turmish half-elf Mastermind who rocks a crossbow named Gravitas, and has "This machine kills goblins" inscribed on the stock. Thanks to the free Help action he gets at the end of each turn, he's effectively the team's John Stockton.
"I wonder if in some weird Freudian way, Kojak was sucking on his own head."
- Steve Webster on Kojak's lollipop


Wrangler

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11414
  • Dang it!
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #582 on: 20 March 2017, 10:09:57 »
Each time i get into a DD5 game, suddenly the DM/GM switches to Pathfinder since they don't like way 5 runs.  Its bit annoying....is D&D5 that's bad?  I know the thread levels for encounters with creatures have issues.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

Kit deSummersville

  • Precentor of Lies
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7608
  • The epicness continues!
    • Insights and Complaints on Twitter
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #583 on: 20 March 2017, 10:21:59 »
Each time i get into a DD5 game, suddenly the DM/GM switches to Pathfinder since they don't like way 5 runs.  Its bit annoying....is D&D5 that's bad?  I know the thread levels for encounters with creatures have issues.

It's not 4th Ed bad/different as far as Pathfinder goes. It's a lot simpler, IMHO, than Pathfinder. It makes resolutions easier but doesn't have the granularity of Pathfinder.
Looking for an official answer? Check the Catalyst Interaction Forums.

Freelancer for hire, not an official CGL or IMR representative.

Everyone else's job is easy, so tell them how to do it, everyone loves that!

nckestrel

  • Scientia Bellator
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6806
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #584 on: 20 March 2017, 10:43:11 »
Each time i get into a DD5 game, suddenly the DM/GM switches to Pathfinder since they don't like way 5 runs.  Its bit annoying....is D&D5 that's bad?  I know the thread levels for encounters with creatures have issues.

I've been DM'ing a 5th ed game for over a year now.  I love how it gives us plenty of time for story over 4th or even Pathfinder. We have had entire sessions without any dice rolling, though it's hardly typical.  When we do have combat/lots of skill checks/etc, it goes quickly and gets things done.  And my players seem to appreciate spending more time moving the story along and less time in character generation/minmaxing (and yes, there is minmaxing during gameplay).
But that was my goal for this campaign. It's certainly not the only way, and not even necessarily the way I'd want every campaign of mine to go. I love Warhammer Quest style dungeon crawl games as well.  Or Pathfinder's depth of detail.  But for this campaign, I was really looking forward to a lot of the promises 5th made, and I think it has done a good job on delivering those.
Master Unit List website - where to find units, what factions use them, what's their BV?
http://www.masterunitlist.info
3025-3050 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info and Quirk lists.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

monbvol

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8002
  • It's looking at me!
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #585 on: 20 March 2017, 13:12:59 »
I do rather like 5th's approaches to many things.  Yeah it might get to be a bit of a pain to determine if someone has advantage or disadvantage or normal roll but it's simplicity is nice and I do like the backgrounds that can do a lot to help break a class from the shackles placed on them in previous editions.

But yeah the details/complexity of Pathfinder for me do make me feel like I still have plenty of ways to put just a few more twists on characters that I haven't figured out how to do yet in 5th edition.  So I'm not surprised that people go back to it.

Meow Liao

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 401
  • The PPC Kitty
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #586 on: 20 March 2017, 19:37:13 »
But...but...where's the love for old Rolemaster from Iron Crown?  1st/2d edition stuff.  You'll sell your soul for a THAC0.  Arms Law has to hit charts for 30 different weapons and 12 charts for natural attacks.  With columns against each of the 20 armor types.  Topping out at 150, and dropping as low as 20 for some weapons.  Every number in the range having some different effect. Natural attacks at least results come in groups of 3 (97-99, 100-102...) Casters get some table love with an attack chart for every combat spell.  Number of hit points dealt, and possible crits ranging in severity from A to E (with F to J results being multiple A to E crits of varying types). And crit tables that quickly disarm, and disleg, your character.  On the low end, you fumbled.  Too bad.  If your lucky, you just stand there for 2 or 3 rounds doing nothing.  Unlucky and you're out for two days with a pulled groin.  And don't expect the healers to come to the rescue.  Only the most exceptional casters, 94+ (in a d100 system) in their caster stat, are able to cast more than one spell of their level a day. 

I've had some 1st level combat types built for a while.  We should have a game day later this week during spring break.  If we do, I'll spend a few minutes running the kids through a basic fight with a few orcs.  Maybe some of the characters will survive.

Meow Liao
 


Have some plum wine with that PPC.

iamfanboy

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1560
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #587 on: 20 March 2017, 20:49:41 »
I've had some 1st level combat types built for a while.  We should have a game day later this week during spring break.  If we do, I'll spend a few minutes running the kids through a basic fight with a few orcs.  Maybe some of the characters will survive.
Somehow, for some reason, that reminds me of my stepfather dragging me camping for a week. "This is the way men were MEANT to roleplay! With lots of rules, constant chart memorizations, and the ever-present knowledge that our so-called 'heroes' were total wimps unless you miraculously rolled high - and by god, we cheated our brains out to get those rolls! Ever filled up four pages of a college-ruled notebook with 3d6 characters just to get ONE with a stat over 15? Well, I have, and I miss those days!"  :P

Somehow, though, I hope you plan on more modern stuff with them. There are few enough RPGers out there that scaring potential ones away with tons of math frightens me a bit.


I think that the reason some DMs would rather go back to Pathfinder is because they want to know that there's a rule for every situation, instead of having to judge themselves. I get that, because it makes things simpler for all players involved even if it means a lot of rulebook shuffling.

Me? I feel as though excessive rules are a crutch that insecure DMs and untrusting players rely on, and a Hackmaster style adversarial game where it's Players v. GM that might be fun once in a while, but gaming is about telling a story together. Ultimately rules can't cover EVERYTHING, and having a GM make a quick call of, "Okay, you want to do that? Roll the dice and see if it succeeds" then moving on with the game beats hell out of trying to find the tumbling rules for twenty minutes, only to remember they're in the Thief-Acrobat section.

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5323
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #588 on: 20 March 2017, 22:32:08 »
And here I barely made my will save to not bring up Hackmaster back when 2nd ed AD&D was being discussed.

Full disclosure:  I love Hackmaster.  But then again I love Paranoia RPG.  I guess for similar reasons... even though they take opposite approaches in how the rules should work..

Matti

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3799
  • In Rory we trust
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #589 on: 21 March 2017, 00:49:35 »
Somehow, for some reason, that reminds me of my stepfather dragging me camping for a week. "This is the way men were MEANT to roleplay! With lots of rules, constant chart memorizations, and the ever-present knowledge that our so-called 'heroes' were total wimps unless you miraculously rolled high - and by god, we cheated our brains out to get those rolls! Ever filled up four pages of a college-ruled notebook with 3d6 characters just to get ONE with a stat over 15? Well, I have, and I miss those days!"  :P
Would GURPS Fourth Edition qualify for him?
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

iamfanboy

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1560
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #590 on: 21 March 2017, 00:56:30 »
Would GURPS Fourth Edition qualify for him?
GURPS. Not just a name, it's the sound one makes upon hearing someone ask you to play it - as though you're swallowing hard so as not to vomit in terror all over them. "Gurps!"

But there are worst suggestions. Palladium. *shudder*

Kit deSummersville

  • Precentor of Lies
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7608
  • The epicness continues!
    • Insights and Complaints on Twitter
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #591 on: 21 March 2017, 10:25:44 »
GURPS. Not just a name, it's the sound one makes upon hearing someone ask you to play it - as though you're swallowing hard so as not to vomit in terror all over them. "Gurps!"

But there are worst suggestions. Palladium. *shudder*

The World of Synnibarr?
Looking for an official answer? Check the Catalyst Interaction Forums.

Freelancer for hire, not an official CGL or IMR representative.

Everyone else's job is easy, so tell them how to do it, everyone loves that!

Matti

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3799
  • In Rory we trust
Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5e, does anyone else?
« Reply #592 on: 21 March 2017, 16:25:23 »
Look up a game Macho Women with Guns

[edit]
Quote
Especially in the vehicular damage system, it parodied the flow chart-approach of Renegade Legion's Interceptor.
:D
« Last Edit: 21 March 2017, 16:27:12 by Matti »
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.