Author Topic: (Answered) Semi-Guided Missiles and Indirect Fire with and without TAG  (Read 2595 times)

Alfaryn

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RESEARCH

From previous threads on the topic of Semi-Guided Missiles and Indirect Fire I understand that:
- Semi-Guided Missiles can be fired at a target that has not been designated by a friendly TAG, but it has never been specified if it applies to direct fire or indirect fire as well (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=12946.0),
- When using Semi-Guided Missiles an attacker ignores not only to-hit modifiers for spotter movement but also terrain modifiers based on line of sight from the spotter to the target (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=787.0).

QUESTIONS

1. Can Semi-Guided Missiles (p. 142 TW) be used to fire indirectly without TAG using LRM Indirect Fire rules (p. 111 TW) with a spotter and without a TAG? Should the answer to this question be added to Semi-Guided Missiles rules on p. 142 for clarity?

2. If the answer to the above is yes does it include spotting with Recon Camera (p. 338 TO)? The rules say that Recon Camera can not be used designate targets for TAG-guided weapons including Semi-Guided Missiles, but can it be used to spot the targets for S-G Ms if no TAG is involved? Again should the answer to this question be added to Recon Camera Rules for clarity?

3. Recent errata to p. 111 TW says that Airspace units cannot spot for LRM indirect fire. I assume that in case of a Recon Camera equipped Airspace unit at altitudes 5-10 it is overruled by errata to p. 338 TO, as TO contain higher tier rules than TW?

4. Considering that recent errata to p. 246 states that an airspace unit can use TAG to designate ground targets for Semi-Guided Missiles and laser guided bombs if it flies at altitudes 5 or lower is it accurate to say that an airspace unit can both designate target with TAG and spot the same or different target for indirect fire in the same turn if and only if it ends it’s movement during movement phase (aerospace) on altitude 5?

5. Do you even need a spotter for an indirect fire with Semi-Guided Missiles using TAG? Can I for example use an airspace unit to TAG a target for indirect Semi-Guided Missiles fire even if this unit can’t act as a spotter (because it does not have a Recon Camera or is below Altitude 5)? If I still need a spotter does it have to be the same unit that TAGs the target?

6. If I don’t need a spotter for an indirect fire with Semi-Guided Missiles would it be better to substitute “(When firing indirectly also ignore indirect fire, terrain and spotter movement modifiers)” with a new sentence “Semi-guided missiles can be fired indirectly at a target designated in this way without a spotter and ignoring +1 modifier for indirect fire.” in the Semi-Guided Missiles description on p. 142 TW?

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Edit - added section names, and some empty lines to hopefully make the post easier to read.
Edit 2 - added links to relevant threads. Changed "S-GMs" acronym back to "Semi-Guided Missiles" everywhere in the text.
« Last Edit: 06 March 2017, 18:05:30 by Xotl »

Alfaryn

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Re: Semi-Guided Missiles and Indirect Fire with and without TAG
« Reply #1 on: 01 January 2017, 14:36:04 »
Bump.

Alfaryn

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Bump.

Alfaryn

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Bump.

Xotl

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1) Yes.

2) Yes.

3) Yes.

4) Aero units can't spot in the standard rules (i.e. without specialized equipment)

5) You need a spotter, but that can be the TAG unit; there's no need for separate spotter & TAGger.  But such a unit can't TAG for one target, and spot for another.  So your TAGger qualifies as a spotter anyway, regardless of whether TAG hits or not, but TAG has to hit to get TAG benefits.
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Alfaryn

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Thank you. That mostly answers my questions in the original post.

There are two small remaining concerns:

7. Regarding question 4. I realise, that an aerospace unit can't spot without recon camera. At least I can't think about any other equipment that would allow them to do it. As I understand it means, that an airspace unit can both spot, and TAG on the same turn only if it ends it's movement phase on altitude 5, because TAG needs altitude 1-5 (see errata for p. 246 TW), and recon camera needs altitude 5-10 (see errata for p. 338 TO), and only altitude 5 falls into both of those altitude brackets. From your answer I understand, that an airspace unit on altitude 5 can either TAG or spot using recon camera, but can it do both, like ground units can?

8. What about grounded aerospace units? Can they TAG and/or spot for LRM fire? The errata for p. 111 TW excludes all aerospace units as spotters (not just airborne ones), and while I can see that something like a fighter may be not set up for spotting while landed, I can't imagine a grounded dropship being unable to spot or TAG. Is this an oversight in the errata or really any grounded aerospace units can't be used for spotting? That about TAG-ing by grounded aerospace units? Can they use it using firing arcs described on p. 249 TW?

Edit: Typos.
« Last Edit: 21 November 2017, 23:09:12 by Alfaryn »

Xotl

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Okay, we've been playing with this in order to sort out all the various inconsistencies.

As TAGging a unit also spots it for indirect fire, you wouldn't be able to TAG one unit and spot another.  The TAGging uses up your one spot for the turn.  if you miss with the TAG, you can try to spot another unit.

Grounded spheroid dropships can TAG and/or spot one target a turn, as normal.
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Alfaryn

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Thank you for the answers. The only remaining thing, that bugs me about those rules, is that apparently an airborne aerospace unit can TAG a ground unit, but usually can't spot it for indirect fire with Semi-Guided Missiles.

As I understand it  to perform an indirect attack with Semi-Guided Missiles, and get a benefit for TAG carried by an airspace unit you would need three units:
1. an attacker firing the missiles,
2. an airspace unit carrying TAG (which can't act as a spotter unless it also has a Recon Camera and is flying exactly at altitude 5, where it can use both),
3. a spotter (a ground unit, or another airspace unit equipped with Recon Camera and flying at altitude 5 or higher), which may or may not be equipped with TAG .

Not only would the spotter would have to tell the attacker not only where the target is, but also someone would have to tell the aerospace unit which unit to TAG, and the attacker - when to fire, so that the missiles will arrive at the target, while it is tagged. It is perfectly doable rules-wise, but thematically seems like a lot to coordinate between three units over a span of 10 second turn, even if computers are involved to automate spotter's tasks based on data from spotter's range finder, and whatever devices are used to establish spotter's, attacker's, and TAG carrier's relative positions and orientations. Wouldn't it be easier to create a system, that can establish positions of the target, and the LRM luncher relative to the airborne TAG carrier in real time, essentially turning the airspace TAG carrying unit into a spotter?

As a side note I can't imagine indirect fire in Battletech without some computer system calculating firing solution based on data from the spotter (and information about the attacker's position) in teal time. The "man with a map, binoculars, range finder, and a hand-held radio", sometimes described when people ask, how spotting works in Battletech, just couldn't do the job during a 10 second turn, especially if all involved units constantly move and fight (as they often do in Battletech) without some computer or computers doing all calculations and most of the communication. Looks to me like Battletech C3 computers (at least C3 slaves) are just a perfected version of artillery computers carried in a pocket by at least one man in every infantry platoon at least since the birth of LRM technology. ;-)

It seems that whoever wrote the rules allowing the aerospace units to carry TAG, didn't think about using it for anything else than guiding homing Arrow IV missiles (which, as far as I understand the rules on p. 181 and 354 TO, don't require a spotter - only TAG) or laser guided bombs (p. 246 TW), and didn't even consider using them for Semi-Guided Missiles. Seems possible considering that both TAG, and Arrow IV appear in Polish edition of Battletech Compendium from 1996, but both semi-guided missiles, and laser-guided bombs aren't there (I guess they were added to the rules later, and in case of semi-guided missiles by someone who at the time didn't consider, or remember, that TAG can be mounted on aerospace units).

It is probably not a high priority problem, but something to keep in mind if you ever decide to clarify or change the rules regarding semi-guided missiles, spotting and/or using TAG by airspace units.

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By the way - as I understand it a landed drop ship is still considered an aerospace unit, so your ruling, that it can spot for LRM fire contradicts current errata for p. 111 TW regarding spotting by airspace units. At the moment rules prohibit spotting for LRM fire by any airspace units regardless of their type, and whether they are landed or not. Looks like something that should be changed by another errata, unless there is the exception for grounded spheroid dropships elsewhere in the rules, and I just missed it.
« Last Edit: 07 April 2017, 18:49:49 by Alfaryn »

Xotl

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Re: the dropship part.  You didn't miss anything: we decided to amend the existing aero unit errata to allow for grounded spheroid dropships.  It will be in this year's errata.
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Alfaryn

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Thank you. I understand, that the change is limited to spheroid dropships only? No grounded fighters, small craft, airships, fixed-wing support vehicles, or aerodyne dropships can spot?

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Regarding my rant about coordination between flying airspace TAG carrier, a separate spotter, and a semi-guided missiles carrier above.

Maybe the best way to solve this situation is to say, that such three unit interaction is to complicated to coordinate in a 10 second turn, and simply ban using TAG to aid indirect semi-guided missiles fire if the TAG carrier is not the spotter? This way a flying airspace unit can only help indirect semi-guided missiles fire with a TAG if it can also spot with a Recon Camera? Although it still feels kind of wired, that an airspace unit can use both the TAG, and the Recon Camera only at one particular altitude. Plus I'm not sure if the consequences such change would have on ground-based TAG carriers (especially those equipped with more than one TAG), are something we want.
« Last Edit: 09 April 2017, 00:50:00 by Alfaryn »