Author Topic: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest  (Read 11939 times)

Daryk

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #30 on: 26 January 2017, 15:55:12 »
I think 50 ton vehicles need four crew, not three (it's one per 15 tons of vehicle or fraction thereof, right?).

Kovax

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #31 on: 27 January 2017, 09:58:03 »
I think 50 ton vehicles need four crew, not three (it's one per 15 tons of vehicle or fraction thereof, right?).
Might be 1 per 15t, but I was thinking 20t.  I don't have the books here with me.  Either way, the vehicle crews will exceed the number of Mechwarriors, and the heavier vehicles will eat up almost as much tech time as the greater number of lighter 'Mechs.

Ulitmately it's not relevant, since I can probably design a better 30-35t scout 'Mech than either a Wasp/Stinger/Locust or a 50 ton custom vehicle, if customs are considered.  Using what's available in canon designs, there are both advantages and disadvantages to using either 'Mechs or vehicles for recon, rather than any clear-cut "this is better" choice.  Ideally, I'd want a couple of each, rather than all of one or the other.

SCC

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #32 on: 28 January 2017, 01:43:52 »
That's where your ruse strategy comes in, though. If you've go recon mechs jumping everywhere, which is scouting out the real target? Which is light acting as a spotter for a heavy fire lance? Which is a lance of lights backed up by the rest of their company on their way to the target they picked?
Due to a bit of weirdness I think this stagey is something the Lyrans are most likely to be able to pull off.

We're also talking stomping robots, helicopters and semi-helicopterish hover tanks, both with loud rotors/fans. Sneaking up isn't what they're for. They're for getting close enough quickly, finding what's what and to maybe strike at undefended targets found, call in heavier lances on standby before a lightly defended position can be reinforced and for keeping track of where the enemy's moving assets are.
For ambushes you'll need infantry or to know quite in advance where the enemy will be and wait for them.
True, up to a point, but part of doing that would require addressing The Infantry Problem in the rules. In universe the argument is that hovercraft never go more then 1 meter above ground, WiGE's are rarely more then 6 and helicopters can go as low as 6, where as a jumping 'Mech will go a lot more, Wasps go as high as 36 meters, some go even higher, so vehicles can hide from radar in ground clutter, 'Mechs can't. Also (Jumping) 'Mechs are automatically using fusion engines, and I believe there's sensors to detect that (This means that as of 3145 there should be FCE powered recon vehicles). And finally 'Mechs are virtually unique in that they can be picked up by seismic sensors.

Sure, Col Toda, or most other players with any experience at the game, can design a 50 ton vehicle which will out-perform a 20 ton 'Mech.  You can generally do a lot more with customs than with canon designs.  The point is, you can carry five 20 ton 'Mechs as cargo, instead of only two of those 50 ton custom vehicles, and the total crew requirements for those vehicles (3 men each) will actually exceed that of the 'Mechs by a man, although the slightly higher tech hour requirements of the extra 'Mechs versus a smaller number of heavier class vehicles will probably even it back out again.
If you can provide evidence of units regularly being transported as cargo under assault circumstances please do so, otherwise I'm going to have to assume that they aren't. (Not saying your argument is bad, just that if it isn't used it should be used.)

wanderer25

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #33 on: 29 January 2017, 14:48:58 »


 Here's one job for light mechs I havent seen brought up yet: Artillery supression!

If you're having problems with mortars, towed artillery or even missile carriers, dispatch some Stinger/Locust/Wasp to infiltrate the rear
and silence these. The mg's take care of the crews while the srm and med lasers of the weapons/vehicles.

In addition you can go on and raid rear supply lines. As long as you hit and run and not linger  to give better units time to catch up you
can  tie up resources that might otherwise be used on the front line.

massey

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #34 on: 31 January 2017, 16:21:29 »
If you want to use light mechs and make them useful on the tabletop, here's what you do.

Get together with your opponent and agree to scenarios that make logical sense for light mechs.

Somebody earlier mentioned the damaged Thunderbolt headed back to base, that encounters a lance of 20 tonners.  That's a perfect example of a fun battle that will be relatively balanced.  You don't have to play out a double blind scenario where everybody is trying to outmaneuver the other.  Simply declare that the battles you will play out will be a portion of what is going on in the invasion.  Let the lights get a moment in the sun, and then assume that's what they're doing the rest of the war.

Take a Stinger and a Wasp and throw them against a company of infantry and a Scorpion tank.  Your justification is that it's a raid on a small munitions outpost.  The armies are fighting with what they have, and while some super-hovercraft would probably be really good in that situation, all the super-hovercrafts are currently busy.  Scarcity is a real thing in war.

Use an objective in a fight.  The attackers are coming through a ravine and they have to get past defenders to get to the other side.  Put 4 mapsheets end to end long-wise, with the light mechs coming in from the side of mapsheet 1, and the defending mechs starting on the line between mapsheets 2 and 3.  The defenders have more tonnage, but the attackers don't have to destroy any defenders.  The attackers have to get off the edge of mapsheet 4.  Once past, they're considered to be able to outrun the defenders and they'll have a straight line to the target (so they win).  So it's just a battle of maneuver for the attackers, while the defenders have to destroy them.

--

As far as vehicles, light mechs have the advantage that they resist attrition better.  A hovercraft or a VTOL can move faster and carry more weapons, ton for ton.  But let's presume that we're going to use our mechs to fight intelligently.  Not fun, but smart.  Something fast with an AC 2 would be an absolutely lethal machine, as long as you had hours and hours and hours to play out every single engagement.

Take a stock 3025 Vulcan battlemech.  Generally one of those mechs that nobody wants to take.  But it has 6/9/6 movement, okay armor, and an AC 2.  What is his job?  His job is to snipe and harass vehicles from very long range.  Take a shot at every VTOL that flies by.  A lance of hovercraft?  Shoot at 'em.  A column of heavy tanks rolling down the street?  Empty your ammo bin shooting at them.  Basically you fire until the gun is empty and then you hightail it back to base.  What good does this do?  You're going to cause motive hits, the occasional critical, knock out a few weapons, things like that.

On its own, this one mech isn't going to do a whole lot.  But in an environment where there's always some jackass with a little gun plinking away at you, those things start to add up.  A battlemech will very rarely take any sort of serious damage from these harassing engagements (there's always the chance for a through-armor-critical, but not nearly like with a vehicle).  So the battlemech can almost always return to its dropship and have armor replaced.  Top off its ammo bin, and the mech is ready to go out again.  But with vehicles, you get that hovercraft that got immobilized 200 miles from the city.  You have to send people out to recover it.  You get VTOLs that crash.  Turrets get stuck and weapons get destroyed.

Low intensity engagements heavily favor battlemechs over the long run.  While we like to play the "big smashy robots fight to the death" type games, mechs are best suited to deny those types of fights to vehicles.  While nobody wants to play that out (who really wants to play a Vulcan shooting at 24 hexes, needing 11s and 12s to hit a group of Rommel tanks for 45 turns, hoping for a lucky crit?  Nobody, that's who), we can presume that those sorts of boring battles are happening offscreen.

Why do I bring this up?  That's your justification for why people don't flood the battlefield with tricked out vehicles.  Light artillery fire, some prick with a snipey gun, somebody who lays down some Thunder LRM-5s scattered across a battlefield, the 31st century's equivalent of a D&D "wandering monster chart" whittles down vehicles.  It's this environment where light mechs really thrive, because they're less vulnerable to a random 2 point or 5 point damage location.

Daryk

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #35 on: 31 January 2017, 19:51:33 »
+1 to all of that!  I once found myself in a campaign game where one scenario had us having to take down a fortification.  Time wasn't a factor, so the Vulcan got the job (and the win, eventually... after a few reloads).

Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #36 on: 01 February 2017, 05:40:08 »
I just came to the conclusion that light mechs do have Era Specific uses that during those Era's they have good reasons to exist .  For instance during the Star league Light mechs were assigned to infantry formations and as such could support boots on the ground during the Reunification wars and such . Before the pulse laser is rediscovered is another time window that such things were very good and effective .  I mostly start Campaigns 3039 or later so the window in which I play that the light mech is a very nice thing is at best 11 years . After 3050 the cost VS results start to wane . I do not actually fully abandon the use of light mechs until 3062 in which is the turning point for me .  I do not know if other's have the same experience but I expect they have .  If all your games are before 3062 or never progress beyond it you very well have a different experience than me .  If you fight in urban areas a great deal having something that moves fast at a walk or cruising speed is a plus as many do not want to make a PSR to avoid skidding .

truetanker

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #37 on: 05 February 2017, 21:16:06 »
Colt~

A suggestion:

How many 50 ton vehicle cubicles can you spare right now?

Cause if you can spare 4... I might be able to help. Your worried about losing mech space and not having a skirmisher light scout for possible escort duties right? Why not pick up some Battlemech Recovery Vehicles, load them up with your heavier fire supports and use the recovered space for a Light Lance? If you have slow mechs heavier than 55-60 tons, I suggest the Heavy version.

Also the Flatbed Truck can be used with a open flatbed trailer to move 2/3 with up to 32 tons. It weighs 10 tons.... look it up.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Flatbed_Truck

Standard double weight / cargo carrying applies.

TT
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FedRatCowboy

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #38 on: 05 February 2017, 23:34:05 »
One tactic that I have used in the past is quite simple: Misinformation.

The recon lance I was running had a custom Phoenix Hawk, a Spector, a Osiris, and a Owen Prime. All 4 had Guardian ECM's. Two would run "ghosts" to make false readings on the scanners, while the other two were set up as jammers.

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Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #39 on: 06 February 2017, 12:10:05 »
Their is an Argus mech with an Active Probe and a RAC /5 .  Having your scouts as heavy mechs as recon with potentially enough force to avoid the need to bring up heavier guns may save a great deal of time . As for Colts suggestion for mech recovery vehicles is all well and good but slow . I like a modified Buffalo Support with winch system and a squad of heavy lifting Armored Exoskeleton's or after 3070  a Tunbo for Salvage sadly this means a 200 ton Large vehicle bay or in the case of the Tunbo converting the small craft bays of a Rose drop ship to carry 4 Tunbos instead of small craft .  The Mech recovery vehicle requires days or hours ; the the Buffalo requires hours to minutes ; and the Tunbo minutes to seconds to pick up salvage plus travel time to and from the LZ. I like comparing VTOLs and Hover Tanks with light  mechs and it's role and the comparative sacrifice for said vehicles vs a mech and their bays . Once you move to Salvage an 80 ton mech recovery vehicle going 2/3 VS a Buffalo going I think 5/8 even with the smaller payload that it can carry is more than 2x faster on the round trip . The Tunbo can pick up just about anything with a 112 ton lift capacity so you are trading efficiency for that bay space . So if you can spare 4 : ton bays yes getting 2 mech recovery vehicles or 1 Buffalo or Tunbo is very much worth it .

truetanker

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #40 on: 06 February 2017, 18:46:04 »
Can't you transfer an active mech to lay down on the BRV? I remember a Panther? in one Dark Age novel that was on trailer used in a trap.

TT
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
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Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #41 on: 07 February 2017, 10:40:36 »
For Stock Vehicles check out the 3058 Pegasus Scout . 35 tons with TAG , Active Probe , ECM , med laser and an SRM Launcher .  If you put Infernos in the SRM Launcher it truly becomes value added . The numbers for the unit seems a little off in the TRO but I do not know by how much . It moves 8/12 with a standard fusion engine . For VTOLs The Warrior S9 ( Prototype TRO ) is disgustingly effective  with Stealth Armor and ELRM - 10 at 21 tons .  You basically can fire at range 22 ( med range for ELRM ) and move 10 to get an effective + 10 defensive modifier ( near impossible ) . Realistically the VTOL arrives attacks the mech on the extreme right or left flank until it runs out of ammo and leaves . It is unlikely the opposition force have something like the old hunchback with a max range of 9 for the S9 to take advantage of it's 12 hex short range .  The only good counters to this is fast mechs with MASC and / or super chargers and pulse lasers or an Inner Sphere Arrow IV launcher with ADA rounds .  AC with Precision Rounds and a targeting computer and Silver Bullet Gauss or LBX are poor second best ideas . Both are effective combat vehicles  to fill the roles of light mechs but are not universally applicable as aforementioned above by combat vehicle detractors vs mechs. It works better with mercenary companies over regular units as Mercenary Companies who want to control costs and losses will not except a contract on a world that does not permit the use of the combat vehicles in the target area where regular units go where they are assigned and as such may have the vehicles sidelined to the LZ as the terrain does not favor them. An established Mercenary company will actually say no to a contract if the profit vs loss by terrain does not work in their favor .

massey

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #42 on: 07 February 2017, 14:32:49 »
For Stock Vehicles check out the 3058 Pegasus Scout . 35 tons with TAG , Active Probe , ECM , med laser and an SRM Launcher .  If you put Infernos in the SRM Launcher it truly becomes value added . The numbers for the unit seems a little off in the TRO but I do not know by how much . It moves 8/12 with a standard fusion engine . For VTOLs The Warrior S9 ( Prototype TRO ) is disgustingly effective  with Stealth Armor and ELRM - 10 at 21 tons .  You basically can fire at range 22 ( med range for ELRM ) and move 10 to get an effective + 10 defensive modifier ( near impossible ) . Realistically the VTOL arrives attacks the mech on the extreme right or left flank until it runs out of ammo and leaves . It is unlikely the opposition force have something like the old hunchback with a max range of 9 for the S9 to take advantage of it's 12 hex short range .  The only good counters to this is fast mechs with MASC and / or super chargers and pulse lasers or an Inner Sphere Arrow IV launcher with ADA rounds .  AC with Precision Rounds and a targeting computer and Silver Bullet Gauss or LBX are poor second best ideas . Both are effective combat vehicles  to fill the roles of light mechs but are not universally applicable as aforementioned above by combat vehicle detractors vs mechs. It works better with mercenary companies over regular units as Mercenary Companies who want to control costs and losses will not except a contract on a world that does not permit the use of the combat vehicles in the target area where regular units go where they are assigned and as such may have the vehicles sidelined to the LZ as the terrain does not favor them. An established Mercenary company will actually say no to a contract if the profit vs loss by terrain does not work in their favor .

Well, I think you're presuming a lot of factors there.  First, you're assuming that a mercenary unit will have access to any equipment they want, that they can pick and choose their units like you're buying something on Amazon.  I don't think that's the reality of 31st and 32nd century warfare.  You're talking about a prototype piece of equipment.  Very likely, you don't have access to that design at all.

Second, you're presuming that merc units are able to pick and choose their contracts as though there are an unlimited amount.  Nothing in the Battletech history would support that idea.  There are a limited number of contracts available, money is usually tight.  Often merc units have to take assignments just to pay the bills.  You have to be an elite unit to be able to pass on jobs regularly, and even they are often forced into situations where they take jobs they don't like.

Third, you're also presuming that you've got total knowledge of what a contract would require.  You may believe the terrain is favorable and then find out that it is not.  Your opponents may move the battle into unfavorable terrain.  Most planets do not have one single ecosystem (desert planet, forest planet, etc).

Finally, the more you specialize, the more you force yourself to the periphery of warfare (little "p" periphery, not big "P" Periphery).  You might be able to make a very good living with your ELRM Stealth VTOL unit.  But recognize that you're an extreme specialist unit that only gets deployed in weird situations.  You do not represent the majority of combat encounters in the Inner Sphere.

There's nothing wrong with playing what is basically "special forces" Battletech, but you have to realize it's an extremely unrepresentative look at the game.  By the way, my counter to Stealth VTOLs?  The same thing that people did in the real world.  Find out where their base is, stick some hidden units of LRM infantry there, and wait for them to come back to base after a mission.

Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #43 on: 09 February 2017, 02:52:38 »
Massey is correct in general . My unit started with Shiltron Primes , Owen light Omni mechs , jump and foot combat engineer platoons . Like the Summerset Strikers was created as a response team . As mercenaries we could go anywhere along the Clan front and build minefields , gun emplacements , traps , and bridges . The idea was to slow the Clan advance as much as possible. Once the Clan War Era ended most of the contracts were garrison or Cadre while building defences for Clients militia to take over and move over to other jobs . As one of a 6 or less Combat Engineer mercenary units we got to almost cherry pick contracts so by no means typical . Later we branched out to being subcontracters for larger units for Artillery Support , Salvage , and LZ perimeter defense . As for the units I mentioned , the Pegasus Scout I have seen fielded by just about everyone but the Clans and Periphery States . The Warrior S 9  requires luck during the Jihad to capture any or less luck overrunning a Republic base during the Early Dark Age or scratch build in a Solaris VII stable hanger anytime after the Jihad Era . Regardless unless you are a WoB or RoS unit you can not field or maintain more than a lance of them . As for getting LRM infantry passed remote sensor networks , Battle Armor , combat vehicle patrols with some mech and artillery support that would be tough to pull off . LZ defense being something I specialize in. My experience is by no means typical and only by being able to cherry pick some contracts , being specialist artillery , Salvage, and LZ defense subcontractors for large multi unit offensives that I did well . I filled a niche and then created my own opportunities . The down side is the unit is so specialized that I have to decline any contract that my unit is sub optimal for . This is why I could eventually lose the light mechs for combat vehicles . Any unit that gets large enough with a big enough cash flow tends to maintain a Solaris VII stable which only has to break even or not too far in the red to give that unit access to white , gray , and black markets to get limited supplies of just about everything. For instance Heavy Ferro Fibrous armor before 3075 it was only available in the Lyran Commonwealth after that it becomes available in the Draconis Combine and be the Republic Era even more. Bottom Line anyone with Solaris VII connections can maintain a lance of just about anything and scratch build if necessary if enough of the technical aspects are known.

abou

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #44 on: 09 February 2017, 16:35:39 »
Light 'mechs in BattleTech seem to really work best in the meta of the game rather than on the actual table. They perform better in Alpha Strike where their presence can cause a big headache; this is mainly from the way movement modifiers work.

I've always tried to find a way for lights to work within a greater campaign setting, but I have found the rules that are published kind of clunky and not really what I want. Part of the problem is that a BattleTech game can last, say, 20 rounds. That translates to 3 minutes and 20 seconds in the game. The fiction may have a fight last an hour with time for reinforcements to arrive that are 20 or 30 km away. How are you supposed to make that work with a satisfying feel in a greater campaign setting?

As mentioned above, lights benefit from more mapsheets. Flanking moves and the ability to pick off weakened 'mechs or pounce on isolated units that strayed too far from support work well. However, the later the game era, the harder things become. A PPC or gauss cannon can really ruin your day.

Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #45 on: 10 February 2017, 08:17:50 »
abou statement of how light mechs perform better in Alpha Strike loses the fact Alpha Strike is so simplistic that heavy mechs with the same number values would be 2X more effective in optimal terrain .  In my opinion it does not represent the Total Warfare well at all . Still light mechs before 3050 are a solid unit .  The Petra in the Jihad Era is among the last light mechs of truly high effectiveness . It is not uncommon that the last 20% of performance is paid by the last 80% of the price tag of any piece of military hardware .  Light mechs often go to XL or  Light Fusion Engines while Assault tend to have standard or compact fusion engines .  The only reason combat vehicles are truly attractive is cost and learning curve needed for the crew . Really High BV units tend to contribute to short brutal fights .  I try to field 2 companies of mechs and vehicles which normally eliminates 3 enemy units per turn if the targets are within 17 hexes from the majority of the formation ; that 6 turns at optimal range to the enemy 24 or 25 mechs . I do not think that 8- 12 turn combats are too long .  The 2 best ways to quicken a game is use heat neutral combat vehicles and cool running mechs .  The best way to make it longer is to have TSM on any mech at all .

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #46 on: 10 February 2017, 10:22:34 »

Dunno how relevant to the OP this is, but I don't think sheer numbers and pack tactics have been mentioned.  In large enough numbers against slow-enough opponents, lights shine in the boardgame without resorting to off-board, meta-game considerations or Alpha Strike.

To show the value of lighter units to newbs and dissuade munchkin assaults, I like a Level 1 "Wolf's Dragoons" training game where the newb runs 2-3 Wolfhounds against an experienced player with 1 Marauder II.  The Wolfhounds usually win, or at least make a very good showing.

There are also canon units, like the Amphigean LAGs, that even specialize in these massed, light mech tactics.

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massey

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #47 on: 10 February 2017, 13:39:22 »
abou statement of how light mechs perform better in Alpha Strike loses the fact Alpha Strike is so simplistic that heavy mechs with the same number values would be 2X more effective in optimal terrain .  In my opinion it does not represent the Total Warfare well at all . Still light mechs before 3050 are a solid unit .  The Petra in the Jihad Era is among the last light mechs of truly high effectiveness . It is not uncommon that the last 20% of performance is paid by the last 80% of the price tag of any piece of military hardware .  Light mechs often go to XL or  Light Fusion Engines while Assault tend to have standard or compact fusion engines .  The only reason combat vehicles are truly attractive is cost and learning curve needed for the crew . Really High BV units tend to contribute to short brutal fights .  I try to field 2 companies of mechs and vehicles which normally eliminates 3 enemy units per turn if the targets are within 17 hexes from the majority of the formation ; that 6 turns at optimal range to the enemy 24 or 25 mechs . I do not think that 8- 12 turn combats are too long .  The 2 best ways to quicken a game is use heat neutral combat vehicles and cool running mechs .  The best way to make it longer is to have TSM on any mech at all .

Well, some of this is only important in a very specific style of game.  You're talking about a late era BV balanced game with unlimited selection criteria.  With a different setup, you'll get very different results.

In the "real world" of the game, they don't balance units by Battle Value.  They aren't trying to find a sweet spot where something is BV cheap but still effective.  They select units based upon considerations we don't deal with in the game, like transport time to the location of the fight, the number that were manufactured, etc.  400 years ago, there were factories that churned out Wasps in countless numbers, so it doesn't matter if it would cost less C-Bills to build one versus building a scout hovercraft.  You have a lot of them and so that's what you use.

Comparing fully optimized units is going to result in a handful of designs being "the best" and everything else being a "don't take".  Sure, a super-fast light mech is going to be in real trouble if it runs into some super-accurate targeting pulse laser monster.  But how often are those two going to encounter each other?  They fulfill different roles, fight on different battlefields. 

Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #48 on: 11 February 2017, 08:48:56 »
Massey is correct the pulse laser targeting computer monster is not encountered often on the same battlefield . Most of the stock units with that combination was fielded between 3060 and 3078  with the very rare unit before and after. The strategic counter to that was fielding more heavy , heavily armored and armed units with support units with inferno or incendiary ammo. Every piece of new hardware brings in a tactical doctrine to make the most of it which in turn ushers in Strategic , tactical and hardware counters for it . My point is once a player encounters it , do they choose to abandon the light mech at all , just for the 18 year window you are most likely to encounter it , or altogether . Even my hardware and tactical choices have window of years in which the WoB potentially fields a hardware counter for . I chose to ride out the Jihad with the risk they would field enough to crush me . After the Jihad so much WoB hardware was reflexively shelved including the hardware I was worried about . It is human nature to adapt . If you have one or two encounters that your light mechs get crushed by some technical combination do you abandon  the light mech for cheap attrition combat vehicles or not ? It is an individual player's Strategic choice how well that choice works out determines if it was the correct one or not .  I made my choice for better or worse it has so far worked for me under my specific circumstances along a specific timeline in specific theaters of combat . Different ERA's , affiliations, what would work best would be very different indeed . So much of what I did is predicated on the BT universe timeline and what I have seen fielded in campaigns and what was or could be fielded from the TROs .

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #49 on: 11 February 2017, 21:45:57 »
I find Advanced and Experimental tech is good for improving the usefulness of lights. You can make them surprisingly tough with Hardened armour or repulse those pulse lasers with Reflective. Angel ECM with ECCM and Ghost Targets makes them tougher and an excellent utility player. I really love Chameleon LPS, as it provides the boosts of Stealth Armour but allows you to use electronics. Partial Wings allow extra jump movement at a low mass cost. And most importantly for me, it doesn't matter what platform TAG is on, because Arrow IV Homing is a great leveller.  ;D

I find light 'Mechs to actually be more useful in general than light vehicles, as they're functionally a lot tougher and retain their mobility (and thus their life) much better. I have a 5/7/5 35-ton 'Mech with Hardened armour, Angel+C3+TAG that always lives longer than you expect and is far more useful than the BV implies.

deathfrombeyond

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #50 on: 13 February 2017, 14:59:27 »
My mercs mech forces are a solid pair of line companies.  No light mechs, what roles they would typically fill can be handled by either vehicles, VTOLs, infantry or the pair of medium skirmisher lances.  So whenever I salvaged a Wasp, Stinger, Javelin or other slower (6/9 or less) light in the 3060s it was sold as salvage or broken up for parts.  Simply they did not bring enough firepower or options to the battle to qualify for a cubicle on my dropships when I had something else that could do the job.

But then I found myself saddled with a rebel militia that was sending three lances of green Wasp, Stingers, a Hermes and pair of old Firestarters as part of a long range intercept.  They had the speed to get to the combat zone and be faster than the escort . . . plus it was also important to fulfilling the contract since it would help those greenies gain experience if I could ensure they saw action and survive.  Because anything dropped or crippled that far out would have to be abandoned though the mechwarrior might get picked up by some SAR.

Then it came to me . . . its like the Indians sitting on the top of a hill watching the settlers/cavalry march through their territory.  The question for the escort commander is, are the bug mechs you are seeing the only mechs in that direction or are there more hiding out of sight over that hill waiting for you to give chase?  Or if the head of your column starts taking fire and you spot those 3 mechs (where is the 4th?  is there a 4th?  mechs usually work as lances, so where is the 4th?) trailing the column . . . well, not everyone can move to the sound of the guns.  Some of the escorts have to honor the threat presented by those bug mechs . . . even if they do not come in range.

If you have VTOLs filling the scouting role of light 'Mechs, why aren't the VTOLs telling you whether those enemy light 'Mechs are a decoy or a true threat?

Also, why aren't VTOLs serving the patrol role of light 'Mechs to ensure that damaged 'Mechs get back to friendly lines?
If House Kurita is a punching bag, at least it's the weeble-wobble type that punches back. House Liao's like a speed bag that just hangs there and takes it. - Neko Bijin

imperator

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #51 on: 14 February 2017, 02:46:18 »
If you have VTOLs filling the scouting role of light 'Mechs, why aren't the VTOLs telling you whether those enemy light 'Mechs are a decoy or a true threat?

Also, why aren't VTOLs serving the patrol role of light 'Mechs to ensure that damaged 'Mechs get back to friendly lines?

Flak rounds.  Lotsa Flak rounds for every AC2 or AC5( I say one out of four weapons or six weapons) 
Their is no problem Jump Jets and an assault class auto-cannon can't handle.

Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #52 on: 14 February 2017, 08:10:09 »
Railan Sradac's comments of higher tech making light mechs viable is true . But from what I have seen only in the Solaris VII arena which runs on very different economic plans than a field combat unit . I made a light mech for the Jade Falcon Stable Partial Wing ; Ferro Laminar Armor and Reinforced Internal structure and moved 8/12/10 . It was Armed with 2 ER Med Pulse lasers if it Jumped it could fire one if it ran it could fire both .  I called it the cockroach as it was tough to kill .  Nothing was as satisfying as it getting hit in the head with a Gauss Rifle in the arena and walking away . But it cost over 20 million C Bills which means I could by 5 major combat vehicles for that .  A balance should be struck bettween cost ; effectiveness ; replaceablitiy and maintainability .  Also you have to factor in what is the profit margin of a contract .  Can you lose 2 or 3  combat vehicles that cost under 4 million C Bills that you can replace quickly or lose 1 or 2 light mechs that you have to go into waiting ques to replace .  You have to have some standardization to develop a tactical doctrine . If you cannot maintain that standardization if losses constantly force  you to use whatever units come to hand as you cannot maintain a solid tactical doctrine .

Daryk

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #53 on: 14 February 2017, 18:46:25 »
20 million is around a company of Urbanmechs.  Even seriously upgraded ones (say, 3/5/3, LB-10X, HPPC+cap, etc.).

Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #54 on: 15 February 2017, 05:25:31 »
An Urban Mech is still a mech .  Any mech is not an attritien unit . The large numbers of Urban Mechs is a result of old stock piles more than manufacturing new ones . Even in an ERA in which new mech manufacturing becomes possible any mech is a complex machine with very tight tolerances so making them is SLOW .  The fluff text for the Bezerker says something like 12 a year . An Urban mech would likely be built in a larger facility and is smaller and cheaper so I figure more like 144 or so a year any combat vehicle would be at least an order of magnitude easier and faster to make .  So when you are figuring on ordering ques for a Successor State for literally hundreds of planets even with prioritizing planets within 30 LY of the boarder you are going to fall short with just mechs in a hot war situation any mech loss is not going to quickly replaced .  Some boarder planets do not  have the education base or infrastructure to maintain fusion engines outside of militia bases . Where ICE and Fuel Cell engines very well may be within the locals ability to maintain and make spare parts for .

massey

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #55 on: 15 February 2017, 14:04:49 »
An Urban Mech is still a mech .  Any mech is not an attritien unit . The large numbers of Urban Mechs is a result of old stock piles more than manufacturing new ones . Even in an ERA in which new mech manufacturing becomes possible any mech is a complex machine with very tight tolerances so making them is SLOW .  The fluff text for the Bezerker says something like 12 a year . An Urban mech would likely be built in a larger facility and is smaller and cheaper so I figure more like 144 or so a year any combat vehicle would be at least an order of magnitude easier and faster to make .  So when you are figuring on ordering ques for a Successor State for literally hundreds of planets even with prioritizing planets within 30 LY of the boarder you are going to fall short with just mechs in a hot war situation any mech loss is not going to quickly replaced .  Some boarder planets do not  have the education base or infrastructure to maintain fusion engines outside of militia bases . Where ICE and Fuel Cell engines very well may be within the locals ability to maintain and make spare parts for .

Well, the problem is that we don't know how big the production line for the Berzerker was.  We don't know how many orders they had, either.  Building a brand new 100 ton mech has to be expensive, and governments may not be itching to place orders for an untested design that has never seen combat.  We don't know if the Berzerker's low production numbers are really representative of how quickly mechs are normally manufactured.

When the Inner Sphere was having production problems, they had problems with everything.  Armor, ammunition, basic weaponry, anything intro-tech was in short supply.  As a result, most of the stuff went to the mechs.  Once the Inner Sphere had recovered, everything became much more commonly available.

Nahuris

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #56 on: 16 February 2017, 01:30:07 »
Another part of the issue is that, in universe, the medium mech is the most common design. This includes units like the Cicada, Clint, and other less used mediums, such as the mentioned, Vulcan. From what I have read, Mediums are the most common, with lights being a very close second, and then Heavies, which are rare, and assaults which are very rare.... so rare, that sometimes they are held out of battles to preserve them.

Now, on the game table, the heavy is the most common design, with assaults liberally scattered among them, and mediums only used when there is a need for fast cav designs....... combined with smaller battlefields, so that those slower designs can get within range of each other within the current decade. Once that game goes that way, light mechs are at a disadvantage.... but that is what we are seeing on most tables.

I do, honestly, wish we had some better numbers on forces.....  or at least something like the class rating that Babylon 5 Wars had, where in order to have a certain unit, you had to take at least a certain number from this other list .....

Nahuris
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Col Toda

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #57 on: 16 February 2017, 05:46:04 »
You can only use the production numbers given .  I do presume that the Bezerker production line was the equivalent of a small factory module .  The way I have seen production numbers  small factory 1200 tons for highly complex , with advanced tech . A large factory ought to assemble 3X more .  An order of magnitude more for each level complexity less and another if you move or the Era moves the tech in it to tournament legal . An order of magnitude less for Experimental tech . On Solaris VII you get unique mechs with experimental tech like the Great Turtle a 100 ton quad with hardned armor and X-Pulse lasers IE ; that 1200 tons goes down to 120 tons which is one unique assault with spare parts . The Advanced tech speed reduction seems to simulate the production choke points that are so often the reason anything with experimental or advanced tech seems to get a units production abandoned . This is Clearly just an Approximation derived from the fluff text I have seen and seems to work well enough in the campaigns I have seen .  By extension it indicates choke points for experimental tech ,  for instance Angel ECM weighs 2 tons for a small factory making 120 tons means 60 units to put into things . You have a unit you want to build with Angel ECM in it you make less than 60 as you want replacements for already fielded units . As soon as the ERA progresses to make it advanced the production go to 600 units  and when it becomes tournament legal it goes to 6,000 for the same factory . If you want to graduate it somehow by using the A-F availability table instead go for it but it seems too number crunchy . An Approximation has been good enough for me in the past ; who you play with determines if they are OK with it or not . This is the best I have been able to do with the limited time I could ; in the games I have played . I am OK if someone posts something better . An Example a 40 ton mech in a large factory with tournament legal tech would churn out 900 mechs / year  , advanced tech 90 , experimental tech 9 .  The vast territory that the factions in battletech is responsible for defending would give quantity a priority over quality for some affiliations . Light mechs with the advent of TAG are just not armored enough to stand up a combat vehicle has few more armored locations so it is better in most but not all cases .

Gardan

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #58 on: 16 February 2017, 06:19:00 »
How I see it is that most light mechs are used mostly by militia and lower tier military units.

4th Succession Wars and Clan Wolf sourcebooks there are lot of defending regiments that don't display any kind of role in texts.
Hotspots give basic garrison force 1-3 companies of mechs in force that is size of 1-4 regiments of infantry with support elements.
Star League Infantry divisions had light mech brigade.

From these I deduct that those obsolete and low power units are indeed in great numbers out side of spotlights.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Light mech use- some thoughts on getting a benefit from the weakest
« Reply #59 on: 16 February 2017, 13:03:23 »
Battle Armor transport and support. a lance of Fireballs can carry six squads of IS Std at 9 assuming they have magnetic claws.  Do you want six squads of battle armor in your rear lines, that would be scary.

 

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