Author Topic: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired  (Read 5430 times)

Scotty

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #270 on: 12 March 2017, 17:12:33 »
I am almost 100% certain that, despite CampaignAnon above mentioning the FWL having some good designs, the purpose of the quirks assigned in the BMM were not to correct balance issues or improve poorly performing 'Mechs.
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CampaignAnon

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #271 on: 12 March 2017, 17:27:08 »
I am almost 100% certain that, despite CampaignAnon above mentioning the FWL having some good designs, the purpose of the quirks assigned in the BMM were not to correct balance issues or improve poorly performing 'Mechs.
Correct, since the Mackie is now RUINED FOREVER. At any rate, all but one or two designs I gave their quirks based on fluff (Grand Crusader 1), or some wink wink, nudge nudge kind of thing. The Guerrero comment was just because obviously the AFFC was Devastators and Nightstars as far as the eye can see at the time. 8)

Heh, I hear ya. Well, if I'm offering requests/suggestions on improving the Grand Titan... I would say the Grand Titan's biggest problem is actually hitting anything. Most of the time it will be taking Long Range firing mods on its attacks, since its effective combat ranges are... really small. That is to say, I'd give it the same sort of improved targeting treatment the Anvil got.

This is, however, a huge improvement to the unit and my suggestion should be taken with significant caution; it's basically like adding a quasi-Targeting Comp onto the thing for free.
Unfortunately, that's pretty much why I didn't give it that quirk. I did 3058 first and realized that perhaps that was a bit too many units with the Improved Targeting Quirks.

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #272 on: 13 March 2017, 20:26:01 »
That's fair. That said, there is something fluff-related I can point out: The Grand Titan is a plausible candidate for Command Mech or whatever it's called.

Consider the following:

 - All of the notable pilots in the TRO are leaders of some sort, and one inherited theirs from a regiment CO (Clarisse Boyer giving hers to her daughter, I believe). There appears to be some tendency for the machine to find its way into officers' hands.

 - Several of the variants/refits of the chassis are tooled toward making it more viable as a leadership-riding machine.

While not as obvious a slam-dunk choice for the trait as a Cyclops would be (and there's certainly room to say "No" to the idea, thus), I can make a realistic case for it.

Empyrus

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #273 on: 13 March 2017, 21:14:30 »
Heavies and assaults are often command 'Mechs for various reasons. I'd imagine Command 'Mech quirk denotes a 'Mech that usually sports equipment for commanders, and the quirk list kinda seems to agree.

The Grand Titan is kinda modeled after the Atlas, and the Atlas is designated Command 'Mech so i'd say it is plausible the Grand Titan would copy this role. And GespenstM makes good points otherwise.

CrazyGrasshopper

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #274 on: 14 March 2017, 02:22:27 »
Aimed Shots, p.30, Targeting Computer, p.113
In neither of these entries it's not explained how aimed shots are made against an immobile target in a presence of a Targeting Computer.
From TW p.143: If using a targeting computer to make an aimed shot against an immobile target, apply an additional –1 modifier (representing the targeting computer) to the –4 immobile target modifier. All other rules for an aimed shot remain the same.

Multiple Firing Arcs, p.27
Multiple Firing Arcs: Through torso twisting, a ’Mech with both upper-body and leg-mounted weapons may have more than one firing arc at once. Regardless of its number of firing arcs, a ’Mech may only have one primary target each turn.

The thing that I got from this sentence is that there can be only one primary target in a turn. I understand that a torso twist changes arcs... But was really meant by this sentence?

Indirect Fire, p.30
Pedantic comment about style. The entry lists modifiers under bullets, but then suddenly drops the habit before a start of the paragraph "Finally, if a spotter..." I suggest to make another bullet to list that final modifier. Also, a +1 modifier for weapon fire that comes from spotting in the same turn could be mentioned under Other modifiers in the Target Number Modifiers Section starting at p.25.

Piloting Skill Roll Table, p.54 and p.137
In Physical Attacks Against ’Mech and Unit’s Actions the word 'Mech is repeated needlessly and clutters the table. You can probably do without it.

Physical  Attacks And Water, p.35
Partial Cover: Depth 1 water provides partial cover to a standing ’Mech against physical attacks. A physical attack made against a ’Mech in Depth 1 water by an attacker that is itself not completely underwater adds the +1 partial cover modifier to its Target Number. If the attack resolves to the legs, the attack is ignored.

From the underlined I understand that the kicks were not considered in this paragraph (because you can kick and kicks land on legs). A notion about kicks should be added.


CampaignAnon

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #275 on: 14 March 2017, 09:36:21 »
That's fair. That said, there is something fluff-related I can point out: The Grand Titan is a plausible candidate for Command Mech or whatever it's called.

Consider the following:

 - All of the notable pilots in the TRO are leaders of some sort, and one inherited theirs from a regiment CO (Clarisse Boyer giving hers to her daughter, I believe). There appears to be some tendency for the machine to find its way into officers' hands.

 - Several of the variants/refits of the chassis are tooled toward making it more viable as a leadership-riding machine.

While not as obvious a slam-dunk choice for the trait as a Cyclops would be (and there's certainly room to say "No" to the idea, thus), I can make a realistic case for it.
It's an assault mech that isn't a gauss boat or something like a Berzerker though. So of course it's going to end up being used as a command ride. Heck, we have Luther Fisk commanding (well, XOing anyway) from the seat of a Salamander. The Grand Titan is, Optimus Prime aside, pretty generic. If I was doing a specific variant list, I might give Command 'Mech to the -13M, but it would need Peter Cullen at the wheel.

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #276 on: 14 March 2017, 10:49:36 »
Well, that's cool. Was just raising the idea as the chassis has some interest to me (I'm one of its few fans who doesn't care much about the Optimus Prime references), but that's alright.

Anyway, there isn't much else for me to comment on. I hope the final release goes well!

Xotl

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #277 on: 14 March 2017, 11:23:03 »
Aimed Shots, p.30, Targeting Computer, p.113
In neither of these entries it's not explained how aimed shots are made against an immobile target in a presence of a Targeting Computer.
From TW p.143: If using a targeting computer to make an aimed shot against an immobile target, apply an additional –1 modifier (representing the targeting computer) to the –4 immobile target modifier. All other rules for an aimed shot remain the same.

That's because that TW line isn't a rule.  "Against immobile targets apply the immobile modifier" is no different than also saying "targets at medium range apply the medium range modifier", and I tried to remove all such redundancies within the text.  Assume the standard rules hold unless mentioned otherwise.

Quote
Multiple Firing Arcs, p.27
Multiple Firing Arcs: Through torso twisting, a ’Mech with both upper-body and leg-mounted weapons may have more than one firing arc at once. Regardless of its number of firing arcs, a ’Mech may only have one primary target each turn.

The thing that I got from this sentence is that there can be only one primary target in a turn. I understand that a torso twist changes arcs... But was really meant by this sentence?

Torso twisting, which can give a mech two "front" firing arcs (torso and legs), raised the question as to whether or not you could have two primary targets (one in each arc).  This says no.

Quote
Indirect Fire, p.30
Pedantic comment about style. The entry lists modifiers under bullets, but then suddenly drops the habit before a start of the paragraph "Finally, if a spotter..." I suggest to make another bullet to list that final modifier. Also, a +1 modifier for weapon fire that comes from spotting in the same turn could be mentioned under Other modifiers in the Target Number Modifiers Section starting at p.25.

Agreed.

Quote
Piloting Skill Roll Table, p.54 and p.137
In Physical Attacks Against ’Mech and Unit’s Actions the word 'Mech is repeated needlessly and clutters the table. You can probably do without it.

Agreed.

Quote
Physical  Attacks And Water, p.35
Partial Cover: Depth 1 water provides partial cover to a standing ’Mech against physical attacks. A physical attack made against a ’Mech in Depth 1 water by an attacker that is itself not completely underwater adds the +1 partial cover modifier to its Target Number. If the attack resolves to the legs, the attack is ignored.

From the underlined I understand that the kicks were not considered in this paragraph (because you can kick and kicks land on legs). A notion about kicks should be added.

It does say this is possible at the start of the section, but this is definitely not as clear as it could be: will clarify.

Thanks again.
« Last Edit: 14 March 2017, 21:00:37 by Xotl »
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CrazyGrasshopper

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #278 on: 14 March 2017, 20:52:05 »
That's because that TW line isn't a rule.  "Against immobile targets apply the immobile modifier" is no different than also saying "targets at medium range apply the medium range modifier", and I tried to remove all such redundancies within the text.  Assume the standard rules hold unless mentioned otherwise.

IMHO, redundancy in this particular case was welcome.

Torso twisting, which can give a mech two "front" firing arcs (torso and legs), raised the question as to whether or not you could have two primary targets (one in each arc).  This says no.

But both arcs (torso and legs) are considered forward? Would be more natural if the forward arc would be determined as the "torso" arc after the torso twist is finished.

It does say this is possible at the start of the section, but this is definitely not as clear as it could be: will clarify.

While it does say this is possible at the start of the section, it is not clear if you have apply partial cover penalty in a case of a kick. Also this paragraph (p.53): "Note that if a ’Mech on Level 0 kicks a ’Mech in Depth 1 water, the target ’Mech would not receive partial cover, because, as per the Different Levels Table above, such an attack is resolved using the Punch Location Table. As such, the part of the ’Mech receiving the attack does not have cover," makes me think that partial cover should not apply for punches (if both 'Mechs are in Depth 1 water), since the reasoning is analogous.

pheonixstorm

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #279 on: 16 March 2017, 22:10:08 »
Quirk issues: p141, p86, p88
Ubiquitous
Quote
When attempting to locate replacement parts for this ’Mech, add +2 to the Target Number.

Non-Standard Parts
Quote
When attempting to locate replacement parts, add +2 to the Target Number.

One of these things is not like the other. I assume that Ubiquitous should be listed as -2 to the TN? In which case the changes will need to be made on p141 and 86

Sigil

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #280 on: 18 March 2017, 13:26:01 »
Quirk Issue: IMP-1A Imp (and variants)

pg. 174 Historical: Operation Klondike

"The powerful and capable Pauley-Bronson Z communications system, tied to the Tacticon T10K Battle Computer and its array of displays, gives its driver complete command and control of even a planetary-scale assault."

The IMP-1A should have the "Battle Computer" Quirk. 

pheonixstorm

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #281 on: 19 March 2017, 22:31:48 »
Another quirks item I would like to add

A little clarity on exactly what Improved Communications DOES

Quote
The ’Mech has a powerful communications suite that can burn
through standard electronic countermeasures. Standard enemy ECM
suites (see p. 112) do not interfere with this ’Mech, but Angel ECM
(see p. 112) still has its normal effect.

Does this mean that Imp Comm keeps BAP and C3M/S(i) alive or just everything in that ECM block??

CrazyGrasshopper

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #282 on: 20 March 2017, 00:29:18 »
Attacking Buildings, p.71
However, weapon attacks targeted at a building hex from adjacent hexes always hit, as do all physical attacks (though players must still roll for weapon effects, such as jamming if firing an Ultra autocannon at double-rate, for example). Always use the full Damage Value for cluster weapons that strike a building hex; i.e. cluster type weapons do not use the Cluster Hits Table in this case.

I think, this easily can be misinterpreted as that cluster weapons always do full the full damage, instead of this being the case only when firing from an adjacent hex. TW, p.171 (errata): use the full Damage Value for Cluster Weapons; i.e. Cluster Weapons do not use the Cluster Hits Table when determining damage against an adjacent building hex.

EDIT:
Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle, p.100

While the entry says you can make a flak attack with HAG, in BMM flak attacks have a default -2 TN modifier. In TW, HAGs made flak attacks with -3 TN modifier. Was the change intentional?
« Last Edit: 20 March 2017, 00:35:26 by CrazyGrasshopper »

Xotl

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #283 on: 20 March 2017, 00:55:19 »
Improved Comms: that's hilarious.  I'll check on the exact effect.

HAG: reported earlier; BMM is in error.

Attacking Buildings: thanks, will add that.
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pheonixstorm

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #284 on: 20 March 2017, 18:06:57 »
Another minor nit to pick about quirks

Clarification if you please.

COOLING SYSTEM FLAWS
Quote
A flaw in the design can result in the ’Mech generating excess
heat. Whenever the ’Mech executes or receives a physical attack, falls,
or is forced to make a Piloting Skill roll because it received 20 points
or more damage, roll 2D6. On a result of 10+ the ’Mech will generate
5 points more heat each turn for the rest of the battle.

So if I read this correctly every time the mech punches/kicks or is punched/kicked, falls, or takes more than 20pts of damage a roll is made. Is this done when each condition is met until[/] a failed roll? Is the extra 5 heat a one time deal or is it cumulative every time the conditions are met and the roll fails?

Talen5000

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Re: BattleMech Manual
« Reply #285 on: 21 March 2017, 05:51:32 »
Spelling issue page 4, under playtesters....

Correct spelling of "Tenaka Fury" is "Tenaka Furey"
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CampaignAnon

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #286 on: 23 March 2017, 01:44:56 »
Another quirks item I would like to add

A little clarity on exactly what Improved Communications DOES

Does this mean that Imp Comm keeps BAP and C3M/S(i) alive or just everything in that ECM block??
According to SO, yes.
Quote from: Strategic Operations page 195
Hostile Guardian ECM or Clan ECM systems do not interfere with this unit, but Angel ECM (see p. 279, TO) still has its normal effect.
That's sort of the point.

Talen5000

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #287 on: 26 March 2017, 23:47:50 »
Quirks
The Cauldron Born has the "Narrow/Low profile" quirk.

Powerful...but not one I would necessarily associate with the design.
The design is noted in the Luthien Sourcebook for absorbing a lot of damage, which is why it got the name Cauldron Born. Unfortunately, there is no suitable quirk for this aspect - there is no "Tough" quirk, Rugged applies to maintenance and Protected Actuators applies to swarm attacks.  Plus, an "Absorb Damage" would be grossly overpowering. A suitable replacement might be a positive modifier to Critical Rolls but I don't think such a quirk exists.
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Heavyguard

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #288 on: 06 April 2017, 14:06:57 »
Common Misconceptions, pg. 129 - Critical Damage Re-rolling Example
"...means that the entire process starts over with the Archer’s controller rolling to see which block—upper or lower—to apply the critical damage."

Should be changed to;
"...means that the entire process starts over with the Archer’s attacker rolling to see which block—upper or lower—to apply the critical damage."

The example for re-rolling critical damage upper/lower location (in relation to DAMAGE #5 references the Archer's controller rolling for the critical hit damage location, however DAMAGE #1 now mentions that the rule has changed and the ATTACKER now rolls for the critical hit damage location.

DAMAGE, pg.128
1. “The player making the attack is the one that rolls the locations of any critical hits that result.”
Since the very earliest editions of the game, while the attacker rolls on the Determining Critical Hits Table, the controller of the ’Mech that is taking the damage is the one that rolls to see where any critical hits to that ’Mech go.
However, as far as we can tell, nobody ever plays that way. As such, we’ve changed the rule to match common usage: the attacker now does indeed roll the location of any critical hits.

Wrangler

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #289 on: 06 April 2017, 14:59:40 »
I know its is bit late suggest this, i like throw this out.
Rapid-Fire optional rule for regular machine guns.
Its simple, gives more value to the machine guns and it has reasonable trade offs as well a fun option to be included in the rules.
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Xotl

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #290 on: 06 April 2017, 15:11:32 »
Did you look in the Machine Gun section?  Or are you referring to something else?
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Wrangler

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #291 on: 06 April 2017, 21:43:59 »
Did you look in the Machine Gun section?  Or are you referring to something else?
Ack, my copy of the book was messing up. i didn't see it. please delete my post. :(
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