Author Topic: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser  (Read 2089 times)

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 27816
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #30 on: 13 March 2017, 12:39:10 »
Given enough cargo room, DropShips can carry them too!  :D

Not usefully.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

marauder648

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3595
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #31 on: 13 March 2017, 12:39:29 »
Any particular reason you're ignoring the great many DropShips that fulfill these roles so that WarShips can focus on carrying the big guns that only they can?

Because it still creates imbalances.  The old 2750 book said the Potemkin was hamstrung by her being reliant on tankers due to the huge fuel consumption loads of her dropships in a combat environment.  So where are those tankers?  Would you use other dropships, because they need fuel too. 

Carriers are a problem too as I see Carrier dropships as a stopgap.  Now this is just me but lets consider slapping a few carrier dropships on a WarShip during the SLDF era.  If that carrier dropship is destroyed, you've now got anywhere between 18 - 40 orphaned fighters with no berths assuming your ships berths are full or you actually have one (most SLDF destroyers didn't carry more than 12 fighters and the 'cruiser' most commonly seen, the Sov Soy, could only carry 18). 

Also where are you going to put those crews from the dropships?  I would assume that for a long patrol etc they would have to be birthed aboard the warship carrying them, this means more cramped crew spaces, higher rates of supply consumption, and you're going to have to carry all the spares, ammo, etc for that carrier dropship in addition to your own.  This is fine on SLDF ships with their quite frankly absurd cargo capacities, but on modern house ships with many having storage space that could politely be described as overhead storage, this is a HUGE problem. 

Lets assume that you try to make a 'carrier' using a Potemkin and equip her with NOTHING but Titan class Dropships (SLDF era in this example).  Thats berths needed for 1,850 extra crew and pilots onboard with the dropships own fuel requirements and supply demands of those extra men.  And then there's habitability issues unless you basically turn some of the cargo space into bunk space and that's not gonna be comfortable or good for morale.  This, as I see it is the problem of carrier dropships. They are great for short term deployments, but for larger deployments, you really need a dedicated carrier WarShip with its own launch, repair and C3 facilities as well as room for the crew and air wing. 

I know I think too much in terms of blue water navies but the SLDF fleet and House fleets are unbalanced messes with seemingly the Clan's level of appreciation of logistics, if not worse. 
« Last Edit: 13 March 2017, 12:46:46 by marauder648 »
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 27816
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #32 on: 13 March 2017, 14:52:31 »
Because it still creates imbalances.  The old 2750 book said the Potemkin was hamstrung by her being reliant on tankers due to the huge fuel consumption loads of her dropships in a combat environment.  So where are those tankers?  Would you use other dropships
Yes. See the Mammoth's fluff about often being converted into a tanker, or the dedicated Aqueduct-class.
Quote
, because they need fuel too.
You've just discovered one of the many logistical challenges Battletech admirals had to overcome. Just like ammo and food, bringing more often entailed spending more. Their job was to bring more than they spent, and/or preposition stockpiles they could refuel from.
Quote
Carriers are a problem too as I see Carrier dropships as a stopgap.  Now this is just me but lets consider slapping a few carrier dropships on a WarShip during the SLDF era.  If that carrier dropship is destroyed, you've now got anywhere between 18 - 40 orphaned fighters with no berths assuming your ships berths are full or you actually have one (most SLDF destroyers didn't carry more than 12 fighters and the 'cruiser' most commonly seen, the Sov Soy, could only carry 18). 
Using a carrier WarShip doesn't solve this problem. A fighter is still stranded if his carrier gets zorched, regardless of wether the expanding cloud of wreckage used to be a DropShip or a WarShip.
Quote
Also where are you going to put those crews from the dropships?
On the DropShip. Those things carry quarters for a reason.
Quote
I would assume that for a long patrol etc they would have to be birthed aboard the warship carrying them
Why? ???
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

Caedis Animus

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1188
  • BRAWL FOR THE GOD-EMPEROR
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #33 on: 13 March 2017, 15:20:41 »
You could still save the pilot if there was a friendly ship in the area, even one with minimal cargo space.

And the Aerospace Fighter might be lucky enough to at least get cannibalized to repair/refit the surviving fighters lucky enough to get some parking space on the nearest friendly carrier, assuming there is one.

EDIT; Wait... Birthed? What?
LRM Boats? In *My* Mechwarrior Online?

marauder648

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3595
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #34 on: 13 March 2017, 16:34:27 »
On the DropShip. Those things carry quarters for a reason.

But probably not for a long deployment.  Then its going to be getting uncomfortable and if a Warships thrusting around then you're having to launch the dropships every time she lights her main engines, burning their fuel to keep up. 

The way I see Dropship CV's is as the WW2 equivalent of a CVE, yes they can carry fighters, but they don't have the capacity to support them for long in the field due to lack of carrying space for spares etc.  Using my Titan example, she carries just over 2000 tons of cargo (2085 to be precise) and if you're berthing your crew aboard then thats going to be food, water, consumables + ammo for fighters + any spare fighters etc, it don't leave much.  So on a longer mission that's not *jump* PUNCH SOMEONE IN THE THROAT *go home* but say a multi-month patrol, you're going to have to draw off the ship you're attached to.  Dropships have been described as being uncomfortable and with iffy air recycling and a unique smell to them in the books, and even at the height of the SLDF you're probably going to run into habitability problems if you keep the crews onboard these small, short ranged vessels for a long period of time. 

Also where are the support vessels?  We know that space mines are a thing, so there should be a mine hunter/sweeper ship that can dismantle a field or act as a base for small craft that can do so.  Yes we know the Newgrange was a thing, but you'd not be able to deploy those everywhere, so where's the smaller repair/supply vessels to support you on missions far from your support structure and bases.  The Newgrange is a strategic asset, not something you break out for every deployment. 

Yes I know i'm thinking blue water navy, but the SLDF's fleet structure, its support infrastructure makes little sense.  And its more top heavy in combat units and lacking in support units than the US navy was pre-WW1. 
By which I mean that Pre WW1 the USN had a big fleet of battleships and armoured cruisers, but if you went to them

"Okay what about escorts and scouts?"
"Escorts?"
"You know...destroyers?"
"Deeh-stroy-urs?"  *blank faces all round*

The fleet had literally no modern destroyers, even for the period, and it wasn't until the huge emergency building programs of 1917 that the USN went "Oh yeah...we'd actually better screen our ships....doi-hoi-hoi."  Whilst this was just the result of budgetary stuff (you could fund a BB easier than a DD) it was a huge problem.  And this is kind of whats happened here.  The SLDF has like ALL the warships EVER. But nothing to actually support them in canon outside of the Newgrange.  And yes you can use dropships, so what carries them, more warships? Jumpships waiting behind the line, all alone and vulnerable?  Why not have a logistics transport, its whole life dedicated to carrying fuel, ammo, spare parts, crated fighters etc.  DropShips dock, take what they need and go to their ship in need.  But no, there's next to no logistic support for the SLDF once it operates outside of the hegemony.



« Last Edit: 13 March 2017, 16:45:22 by marauder648 »
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7431
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #35 on: 13 March 2017, 17:08:44 »
But probably not for a long deployment.  Then its going to be getting uncomfortable and if a Warships thrusting around then you're having to launch the dropships every time she lights her main engines, burning their fuel to keep up. 




The way I see Dropship CV's is as the WW2 equivalent of a CVE, yes they can carry fighters, but they don't have the capacity to support them for long in the field due to lack of carrying space for spares etc.  Using my Titan example, she carries just over 2000 tons of cargo (2085 to be precise) and if you're berthing your crew aboard then thats going to be food, water, consumables + ammo for fighters + any spare fighters etc, it don't leave much.  So on a longer mission that's not *jump* PUNCH SOMEONE IN THE THROAT *go home* but say a multi-month patrol, you're going to have to draw off the ship you're attached to.  Dropships have been described as being uncomfortable and with iffy air recycling and a unique smell to them in the books, and even at the height of the SLDF you're probably going to run into habitability problems if you keep the crews onboard these small, short ranged vessels for a long period of time. 

Well...yes.  That's it exactly.  If you're burning in-system, the dropships detach.  That's how it always works.  If you're just sitting at the jump point, they probably stay hooked on unless they need to go out patrolling or something.  While they're hooked on, it's easy to transfer supplies from the WarShip to the dropper.


If not on their dropships, where might dropship crews live while traveling interstellar distances attached to conventional jumpships?  Because those things certainly don't have the quarters to spare for everyone.  Dropship accommodations may not be 5 star, but they're perfectly serviceable for long journeys. 
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 27816
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #36 on: 13 March 2017, 17:27:13 »
But probably not for a long deployment.  Then its going to be getting uncomfortable and if a Warships thrusting around then you're having to launch the dropships every time she lights her main engines, burning their fuel to keep up.

Dropship accommodations may not be 5 star, but they're perfectly serviceable for long journeys. 

Exactly this. Unless you specifically spring for improved quarters during construction, the accommodations for pilots assigned to DropShips and WarShips are exactly the same. WarShip crews get access to a grav deck on occasion that likely has some rec facilities on it, but that's it.

And yes you can use dropships, so what carries them, more warships? Jumpships waiting behind the line, all alone and vulnerable?
Quote
Yes to both.
Why not have a logistics transport, its whole life dedicated to carrying fuel, ammo, spare parts, crated fighters etc.  DropShips dock, take what they need and go to their ship in need.  But no, there's next to no logistic support for the SLDF once it operates outside of the hegemony.

That's called using a Potemkin or Volga or Carrack or an Invader with a few Mules/Mammoths/Behemoths/you get my drift attached.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

marauder648

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3595
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #37 on: 13 March 2017, 17:36:33 »
Quote
That's called using a Potemkin or Volga or Carrack or an Invader with a few Mules/Mammoths/Behemoths/you get my drift attached.

Yep but if you're using a Potemkin as an freighter, unless you're Clan Diamond Shark/Sea Fox you're doing something wrong.  thats kinda like using a Nimitz class carrier as a car ferry.  Volga's too are more a warship like a LSD rather than a supporting role.  The Carrack is fine in this, all be it a tad vulnerable and with 2 dropship collars your gonna have fun trying to organise that if you use her as a AOR for a squadron.

Jumpships are slow and horrifically vulnerable and pre-ares convention folks would have gunned for them, which means they have to be escorted.  Which means more of a logistics strain supplying the escorts and so on. 

As i've said i'm thinking too much in terms of blue water navies, and I know I am trying to fit that framework onto the SLDF. 

With something like the Molly, you'd HAVE to have her with a Mule carrying food, fuel, spares etc due to her having small bedside cabinets as cargo space, and the Molly seems built for short range  deployments or defensive duty where she's got a plentiful supply of friendly dropships.
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 27816
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #38 on: 13 March 2017, 17:48:49 »
Yep but if you're using a Potemkin as an freighter, unless you're Clan Diamond Shark/Sea Fox you're doing something wrong.  thats kinda like using a Nimitz class carrier as a car ferry.

Potemkins have always been cargo transports. It's players that look at the docking collars and see an excuse to spam Titans/Vengeances/Whatever DropShip has caught their eye that day. There is no indication this is ever done in-universe.

Jumpships are slow and horrifically vulnerable and pre-ares convention folks would have gunned for them, which means they have to be escorted.  Which means more of a logistics strain supplying the escorts and so on.
How is that different from the blue water navies you keep going back to? Did their supply ships traipse around the ocean unescorted?
Quote
  With something like the Molly, you'd HAVE to have her with a Mule carrying food, fuel, spares etc due to her having small bedside cabinets as cargo space, and the Molly seems built for short range  deployments or defensive duty where she's got a plentiful supply of friendly dropships.
Complete agreement. I don't ever think I've ever praised the Mjolnir's operational range.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

Iron Mongoose

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1235
  • C is for Cookie...
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #39 on: 13 March 2017, 18:12:51 »
It should be remembered (as I'm sure many do) that the Houses and SLDF deserve very different criticism. Sure, the Star League should have been more efficient or well rounded, but if warships are a dime a dozen why not use a nimitz as a car carrier (not a perfect analogy, but why not)? I haven't studied the newer historicals so I can't say much here.

As for the houses, that's different. If boats were lostech for 300 years, then the first new fleets would look pretty goofy too.  I think the crazy hodgepodge of IS ships is actually quite reasonable given tactical, political and economic realities of the time.
...that's good enough for me.

sillybrit

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3914
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #40 on: 13 March 2017, 18:27:09 »
Carriers are a problem too as I see Carrier dropships as a stopgap.  Now this is just me but lets consider slapping a few carrier dropships on a WarShip during the SLDF era.  If that carrier dropship is destroyed, you've now got anywhere between 18 - 40 orphaned fighters with no berths assuming your ships berths are full or you actually have one (most SLDF destroyers didn't carry more than 12 fighters and the 'cruiser' most commonly seen, the Sov Soy, could only carry 18).

Land the fighters in bays, transferring them to cargo to free up the bay for the next fighter, rinse and repeat until all are landed.

Quote
Also where are you going to put those crews from the dropships?  I would assume that for a long patrol etc they would have to be birthed aboard the warship carrying them, this means more cramped crew spaces, higher rates of supply consumption, and you're going to have to carry all the spares, ammo, etc for that carrier dropship in addition to your own.  This is fine on SLDF ships with their quite frankly absurd cargo capacities, but on modern house ships with many having storage space that could politely be described as overhead storage, this is a HUGE problem.

Why am I berthing the DropShip crews on my WarShips? The DropShips only dock with the WarShip for jumps, resupplies, etc and they already have their own crew quarters, so their crews can stay where they are.

Quote
Dropships have been described as being uncomfortable and with iffy air recycling and a unique smell to them in the books

Some DropShip designs might have those issues and perhaps only after the fall of the Star League and the decline of manufacturing. Do you have a particular SLDF DropShip design in mind that had such problems during the Star League era?

Quote
and even at the height of the SLDF you're probably going to run into habitability problems if you keep the crews onboard these small, short ranged vessels for a long period of time.

But the quarters in a DropShip get the same tonnage as the quarters in a WarShip, so there's no reason the former should be worse than the latter. Range, or endurance to use a more correct measure, is a matter of cargo space and that can always be supplemented by friendly ships.

Quote
Yep but if you're using a Potemkin as an freighter, unless you're Clan Diamond Shark/Sea Fox you're doing something wrong.

Or if you're the SLDF and have plenty of other WarShips for your other needs. Using a Potemkin reduces the number of WarShips you require to escort your troop DropShips, potentially removes the need to provide additional WarShips to escort the JumpShips that would otherwise have to deliver those DropShops, and also gives you an on the spot self-escorting supply base. For a ground force orientated military, which is what the SLDF was become post-Reunification War and remained until Admiral Peterson's reforms, it probably makes a lot of sense.

As for the Potemkin' supposed fuel issues, that fluff dates from the Star League sourcebook, which was published before TRO2750, which was in turn published before there were any form of design rules for large craft. It's no wonder the fluff makes little sense.

glitterboy2098

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6093
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #41 on: 14 March 2017, 01:55:13 »
Because it still creates imbalances.  The old 2750 book said the Potemkin was hamstrung by her being reliant on tankers due to the huge fuel consumption loads of her dropships in a combat environment.  So where are those tankers?  Would you use other dropships, because they need fuel too. 

you know, it occurs to me that situations like that might explain why most Star league warships were 50% cargo space.. why build dedicated tanker ships when you can just load up the entire escorting task force with fuel bladders and transfer it over with a few specialized dropships?  ???

Jellico

  • Spatium Magister
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3784
  • BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #42 on: 14 March 2017, 08:25:26 »
It should be remembered (as I'm sure many do) that the Houses and SLDF deserve very different criticism. Sure, the Star League should have been more efficient or well rounded, but if warships are a dime a dozen why not use a nimitz as a car carrier (not a perfect analogy, but why not)?

It is not a silly analogy. In WWII frontline aircraft carriers were routinely used to ferry land based aircraft.

you know, it occurs to me that situations like that might explain why most Star league warships were 50% cargo space.. why build dedicated tanker ships when you can just load up the entire escorting task force with fuel bladders and transfer it over with a few specialized dropships?  ???

It has been suggested before.
Post Reunification War hostile fleets don't exist. The main threat is asymmetric warfare.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7522
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #43 on: 14 March 2017, 08:56:50 »
Honestly were is the call for anything more than a Starlord with a Mammoth, Vengeance, and four Avengers?
Guardians of the Galaxy 3? (sorry)

It is not a silly analogy. In WWII frontline aircraft carriers were routinely used to ferry land based aircraft.
Original intent was the same for Shinano, as I recall.  Regards the Potemkins, they always struck me as "how to transport a bunch of troopships on the cheap when you don't want to risk civilian shipping" - that 25% cargo fraction said 'spares and consumables onboard' in addition to the large number of dropships.

Another thing to point out is that her only real ammunition requirement is missiles - there's not a NAC or NGauss aboard.  That feels like the starship equivalent of a flashbulb 'Mech, something that's supposed to operate without needing a lot of resupply. And in this case, Potemkin carries a massive amount of cargo (more than the mass of some warships) anyway.  Hell, it's almost like you could take one of those into the deep and send it lurking around a long trip to sneak-attack an unsuspecting target on its own, and still drop a division on a world.  Think about it; a couple transports to balance out requirements, a couple Avengers and Achilles for escort duty, and a bunch of assault transports to move your ground forces.  Go disappear for two or three months, using that giant cargo space for fuel and whatever else, and then reappear on a nation's back patio without warning.  And you only need one WarShip to do this with, not a whole fleet.

Potemkins almost sound like the biggest threat a House can face; they're able to just up and disappear with their cargo cap and show up wherever you least want them to be.  Interstellar raiding at division scale, with WarShip backup (that's a LOT of HNPPCs) is just the thing to keep the Houses in line.

Wrangler

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11414
  • Dang it!
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #44 on: 14 March 2017, 15:09:14 »
One rule i never like ( i know there was reasons) that WarShip can not move while it has any DropShips attached. 

Give how the rules were, Dropships were safer attached than detached if there was heavy WarShip concentration near by.  I'm not sure if AT2 didn't mention they could not be attached.

I do recall a Mjolnir in the novel Blood of Skye depicted that the Yggdrasil only detached it's Dropship compliment only until it got range of Skye, not before then to engage the Emerald Talon.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

SD501st

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Lead me, follow me or get out of my way!
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #45 on: 15 March 2017, 15:54:09 »
I do recall a Mjolnir in the novel Blood of Skye depicted that the Yggdrasil only detached it's Dropship compliment only until it got range of Skye, not before then to engage the Emerald Talon.

Out of curiosity, and since I do not possess the novel in question, how did the Yggdrasil fare against the Emerald Talon(a Nightlord if I remember correctly)? I would assume that the Emerald Talon was defeated, but was it a hard fought battle or a curbstomp? How much of a difference did the dropships and aerospace fighters make in the fight? I need input details! [drool]

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7431
« Last Edit: 15 March 2017, 15:58:53 by Arkansas Warrior »
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7431
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #47 on: 15 March 2017, 15:59:31 »
Damn it, I don't know what's going on with my previous post.  Here's the URL: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Yggdrasil_(Individual_Mjolnir-class_WarShip)#The_Dark_Age
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

SD501st

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Lead me, follow me or get out of my way!
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #48 on: 15 March 2017, 16:02:24 »
I've already read the Sarna article but let's just say it is lacking exactly the details I am interested in. ::)
Thanks for the link anyway.

Also, according to Sarna the Yggdrasil is still in service, guarding Hesperus II in 3145... that would make the Lyran Commonwealth one of the few factions with access to a real Warship(and second only to the Leviathans in terms of armor, to boot!).

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 27816
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #49 on: 15 March 2017, 16:29:26 »
From what I recall of the novel, fighters and DropShips were largely a nonentity in that fight. The gist was that both ships closed with each other head on and exchanged shots at range, with Yggy taking it worse(along other things, the captain was killed, and an observing DropShip skipper took temporary command). When they passed broadside, Emerald Talon let rip(doing more damage), but Yggdrasil held fire until they passed, then yawed and shoved a close-range salvo up the Nightlord's drive cones, largely disabling them. At that point the battle was essentially over, as the Lyran ship had taken too much damage to keep fighting a serious opponent, and the Talon's maneuverability was crippled for the time being. Yggdrasil jumped out shortly afterward.

Tactically, the battle was a draw, with both ships unable to keep fighting. Strategically, it was a Lyran victory, as Emerald Talon was no longer a threat to their DropShips or ground forces in that system, and Yggdrasil wasn't needed for any more of their plans.

This was a Mjolnir's ideal engagement, a close-range brawl against a single opponent. It's unsurprising that the Nightlord fared worse, as that ship is more optimized for fighting large numbers of DropShips and smaller WarShips, as opposed to a single big enemy.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7431
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #50 on: 15 March 2017, 16:42:42 »
I've already read the Sarna article but let's just say it is lacking exactly the details I am interested in. ::)
Thanks for the link anyway.

Also, according to Sarna the Yggdrasil is still in service, guarding Hesperus II in 3145... that would make the Lyran Commonwealth one of the few factions with access to a real Warship(and second only to the Leviathans in terms of armor, to boot!).
Ok.  You seemed to think the Ygg would have gotten the better of the Talon, and the article says the Lyran ship 'barely survived', so I didn't think you'd read it.  My mistake.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Iron Mongoose

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1235
  • C is for Cookie...
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #51 on: 15 March 2017, 17:18:40 »
One thing is is indicative of is tactics in an era where warships are, if not lostech then the next best thing.  The Falcons have a large and powerful fleet, and even the loss of their largest and proudest ship would be a fair trade for 100% of their enemy's fleet, while the Lyrans have no doubts of the idea  living to fight another day. 
...that's good enough for me.

Wrangler

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11414
  • Dang it!
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #52 on: 17 March 2017, 23:09:06 »
Yggdrasil was badly damaged, last time checked.  Lyrans didn't have any significant shipyards left that could service her properly.   She a Fox Corvette is all they have left.   Falcon's have at least 3 ships left after the "War of Reavings" aka Civil War, minus Emerald Talon.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

mbear

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2718
    • Tower of Jade
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #53 on: 20 March 2017, 16:22:03 »
So after reading the first few responses before the thread drifted into logistical issues, it sounds like the Lyrans created a WarShip equivalent to the Hunchback. Big cannons and slow, but deadly when close to an enemy. Fair assessment?

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 27816
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #54 on: 20 March 2017, 16:25:01 »
Not really slow as far as WarShips go, but otherwise yeah. :)
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7431
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #55 on: 20 March 2017, 17:00:01 »
Perhaps more like a Blitzkrieg, really.  Pretty fast, for its size.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, cowerer of Dainmar Liao, Creator of the Model Army, Rescuer of Robinson, Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

BrokenMnemonic

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1344
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #56 on: 20 March 2017, 17:45:29 »
Having read through First Succession War a few times, I'm curious if the Mjolnir class was intended to spend a fair amount of its time as a class defending strategically important systems like Hesperus, rather than tasks that required it to go long distances. I'm thinking of situations like the Combine or FWL attacks on Hesperus II that arrived and found squadrons of Tharkads waiting for them, only updated to the 31st Century and Clan Whoever'swinningtoday turning up with their WarShips. Hitting advanced Clan WarShips in the face with something designed to be a big, short-range hammer feels very Lyran.

It's more interesting than optimal, and therefore better. O0 - Weirdo

HobbesHurlbut

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2024
  • Live Free or Die Hard
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #57 on: 20 March 2017, 18:40:29 »
It is not a silly analogy. In WWII frontline aircraft carriers were routinely used to ferry land based aircraft.
And destroyers often get refueled from the carriers and/or battleships they escorted as they do from replenishment ships and tankers.
Clan Blood Spirit - So Bad Ass as to require Orbital Bombardments to wipe us out....it is the only way to be sure!

Flieger

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 690
Re: Tell me about the... Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser
« Reply #58 on: 21 March 2017, 15:19:04 »
Yggdrasil was badly damaged, last time checked.  Lyrans didn't have any significant shipyards left that could service her properly.   

The Gibbs yards were upgraded to service WarShips after the Jihad. Even if they were less than optimal to deal with a ship the size of the Yggdrasil (were they, though?), they had ten years to repair the ship.