Hardened Buildings EVERYWHERE!

[StoneRhino]

If they insist on so many hardened buildings, just insist on the extreme range rules and use your energy weapons to level them.  Buildings being immobile, they're pretty easy to hit, even at extreme (or even LOS) range.

Just a note about the player, which is amusing, is that hes the one that has been known to sit around all day leveling buildings.  ;D It was unfortunate that I did not have a lance of Awesomes to return the favor of the past when I was defending a city. ;D

[StoneRhino]

There's also the age-old way to evaluate the perception of unbalance in a scenario:

Replay the scenario but swap sides.  See if he still thinks it's reasonable when he's the one in the trees and you're the one in the buildings.  Who knows what might happen... he might change his mind with a new perspective, or maybe even you might (if he thinks of trying something you didn't...)

Due to a lack of time to create scenarios we have been playing death match style games. The particular city map in question would be great for a scenario if it was based upon seizing a capital or some other high profile objective where having it destroyed would be detrimental to both sides; possibly having points subtracted for causing damage.

One thing to note is that nobody was in disagreement. I think I was the one that objected to not playing it as is the most. They both offered the possible solution of not being able to enter the buildings. I hate house rules, but in the hopes of having the game getting started and possibly progressing, avoiding use of the buildings seemed like the only real option aside from the massive bonus in free armor.

Either we house ruled to avoid using the buildings or it would have been me simply sitting back trying to level the entire city using a total of 4 clan LPLs, 2 clan ERLLs, and 2 Large VSPL, in order to avoid burning up my ammo and avoiding getting into medium range for 105 TAG guided LRMs with 9 fast units carrying a TAG. The game would have only differed a bit if we played with the buildings as is as I would have moved everyone to the left map to focus fire on the buildings while their forces were huddled up in the center of the city.

It seems that the only solutions so far have been to bring a lot more energy weapons in case this happens again, or bring a ton of artillery though we have not used arty for years because half of the little group are returning players.But they now seem into the idea of using more stuff now, but I'd rather not bring so much arty that it would make quick work of such a mapsheet as that would become the new issue.

A few tubes would have forced the anchor units to move, and I believe someone mentioned that it is a +6 modifieer to enter hardened buildings, to avoid taking damage, which I believe we were thinking it was lower. Maybe I just need to make sure that I have more city killing units available.

[Porkins]

A while ago our group admitted defeat when it comes to buildings - the rules are overly complex and the "armor" effect is just unbalanced, plus requires too much record keeping.  As such we determined to replace all the damage reduction with simple to-hit modifiers = to the extra MP cost so light +1, medium +2, etc.  We felt the building provides cover so it should just be harder to hit the unit in there but if it gets hit then damage is normal.  Physical attacks are also Permissable as is the option to target only the building if desired, though no damage is applied to the unit inside.

It was a simple and far more enjoyable approach that sped up the game so while you do not like house rules you might want to try it and see if it works better for you than than the normal rules. 

Admittedly the presence of so many hardened buildings in your game is still a concern as even the house rule wouldn't help you too much what with a +4 to hit them, so you could go with some of the great suggestions made by others like setting fires, artillery, objectives, switching sides, etc.

[mbear]

It seems that the only solutions so far have been to bring a lot more energy weapons in case this happens again, or bring a ton of artillery though we have not used arty for years because half of the little group are returning players.But they now seem into the idea of using more stuff now, but I'd rather not bring so much arty that it would make quick work of such a mapsheet as that would become the new issue.

A few tubes would have forced the anchor units to move, and I believe someone mentioned that it is a +6 modifieer to enter hardened buildings, to avoid taking damage, which I believe we were thinking it was lower. Maybe I just need to make sure that I have more city killing units available.

RE: Bringing artillery units. If battle armor tube artillery is an Area Effect weapon some squads of Centaur battle armor will cause lots of fun. There's a Jinggau variant from Jihad Turning Points: Sian that mounts an artillery cannon as well. Then there's the two Artillery Cannon units from TRO:Prototypes: The Phalanx Support Tank mounts a Sniper Artillery Cannon and the Rommel Howitzer has a Long Tom Artillery Cannon. Both of those guns are going to drop a building pretty quickly, especially if you have a platoon of each firing close to each other. Heck even one platoon of them will quickly break a strongpoint. That building the enemy is in for cover? Yeah, it just became a deathtrap as upper floors fall on lower floors.

The other advantage is that the tanks' artillery cannons are basically handled like LRM indirect fire, so there's no new rules to learn. The ranges are much shorter than traditional artillery, but that's OK for bunker busting like you apparently have to do.

Others have pointed out that infernos and plasma weapons are handy for buildings, and they are. But if there are 'Mechs and vehicles hiding in them don't the buildings hinder their firing arcs? If so flanking the buildings with friendly forces is a good idea.

[JadeHellbringer]

If the enemy units are IN the buildings, I back Paul here- infantry to clean them out. You thought being swarmed was annoying before? Wait until you deal with this whole mess. Remember: Infantry can fire at a unit in their own hex (like a building interior, say). So you can make life very, very interesting on someone who tries to hunker down inside a ruined hotel. (To say nothing of what happens if you send in battle armor- Salamanders in particular are just disgusting.)

Wait. OK, another bad idea that your enemy won't expect. Tried using Protomechs? Not quite as agile in buildings as battle armor, but useable- and powerful. Even some average units like Rocs will be pretty ridiculous in that kind of environment.

[UrQuanKzinti]

For a lot of players just having pick up games, I suspect they pick their forces before they pick the map. Especially when not close to a printer, such as at a game store. So tailoring their force for the map, or for the enemy force, probably isn't a viable solution. For some groups it would also seem like bad form, unless the map they get saddled with is completely unviable (heavy forest or a vehicle-heavy force).

As another player said, if their mech is in a tall building and you can bring it down on top of them, it can do a lot of damage (CF/10 x the Levels above the mech, to the punch table). Or if they're standing on top of a building. However if the building is only 2 levels high then destroying it wont affect the mech inside at all.

Incidentally one other good way to balance a scenario is to have one person or group of people select both the map, setup and the forces on each side of the battle. And then the other force selects what force they want to use.  Because the person setting up the battle doesn't know which side they'll be fighting, they will usually try to ensure both are as balanced as possible.  Though, again if it's a pick-up game where people bring their own units and don't want people touching their miniatures, then it won't work as well.

[mbear]

Do fragmentation or tear gas missiles work against infantry in buildings?

[idea weenie]

Either we house ruled to avoid using the buildings or it would have been me simply sitting back trying to level the entire city using a total of 4 clan LPLs, 2 clan ERLLs, and 2 Large VSPL, in order to avoid burning up my ammo and avoiding getting into medium range for 105 TAG guided LRMs with 9 fast units carrying a TAG. The game would have only differed a bit if we played with the buildings as is as I would have moved everyone to the left map to focus fire on the buildings while their forces were huddled up in the center of the city.

Just bring one Clan ERLL.

Each turn both of you will roll for initiative, and you will fire the one CERLL at a single building.  Just drag the game on for as long as possible.

[mbear]

Either we house ruled to avoid using the buildings or it would have been me simply sitting back trying to level the entire city using a total of 4 clan LPLs, 2 clan ERLLs, and 2 Large VSPL, in order to avoid burning up my ammo and avoiding getting into medium range for 105 TAG guided LRMs with 9 fast units carrying a TAG. The game would have only differed a bit if we played with the buildings as is as I would have moved everyone to the left map to focus fire on the buildings while their forces were huddled up in the center of the city.

If it happens again, maybe the defender could lose points for damaging the buildings. After all his job is to protect the city, not speed its destruction.

[StoneRhino]

Just bring one Clan ERLL.

Each turn both of you will roll for initiative, and you will fire the one CERLL at a single building.  Just drag the game on for as long as possible.

Living the dream and living up to the name, Idea Weenie. ;D

It was considered and I did have 2 available along with a few clan LPLs. It just would have taken to long. ;D

[JadeHellbringer]

Just bring one Clan ERLL.

Each turn both of you will roll for initiative, and you will fire the one CERLL at a single building.  Just drag the game on for as long as possible.

Ehhhhhh... see, that's one of those things that is technically legal and would work, and would also ensure at best that neither party has any actual fun with the game. I strongly recommend against this if you want to continue gaming with this person after this game.

[Foxx Ital]

Im a big fan of burn it to the ground. If someone wants to hang out in a hardened building, im more than happy to see if they brought marshmallows.
 Then again im a spoiled ghostbear, after launching cruise missiles from the polaris, im lighting it on fire and sending in golems...its the only way to be sure.

[JadeHellbringer]

Im a big fan of burn it to the ground. If someone wants to hang out in a hardened building, im more than happy to see if they brought marshmallows.
 Then again im a spoiled ghostbear, after launching cruise missiles from the polaris, im lighting it on fire and sending in golems...its the only way to be sure.

"HOUSEKEEPING!!!"

[Karimancer]

I say old school siege tactics. Surround him and starve him out. Or poison his water. Maybe fling some diseased cattle over his battlements.

[JadeHellbringer]

I say old school siege tactics. Surround him and starve him out. Or poison his water. Maybe fling some diseased cattle over his battlements.

I think there's an Arrow warhead for that. Plague-pig rounds. Seems very Capellan.

[Kit deSummersville]

I think there's an Arrow warhead for that. Plague-pig rounds. Seems very Capellan.

What a waste of swine. Use Servitors instead.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

I say old school siege tactics. Surround him and starve him out. Or poison his water. Maybe fling some diseased cattle over his battlements.

Some one hand em a nu-Falcon banner...

[Foxx Ital]

"HOUSEKEEPING!!!"

Great, now when i see a golem shrugging off dmg all im going to hear is a certain maids voice.,"no, no...i stay here."

[JadeHellbringer]

Great, now when i see a golem shrugging off dmg all im going to hear is a certain maids voice.,"no, no...i stay here."

I've ruined Battletech for a veteran player. My work here is done.  O0

[Foxx Ital]

I've ruined Battletech for a veteran player. My work here is done.  O0

Kek..wait im a veteran player!? Woohoo! Now to collect my pension of flavored tums im sure worktroll is hoarding.

Does anyone else giggle with glee when you see a mech ontop of a building? Once saw a building on fire crumble due to the fire eating the cf, causing the mech to dive headfirst into it...

[JadeHellbringer]

Kek..wait im a veteran player!? Woohoo! Now to collect my pension of flavored tums im sure worktroll is hoarding.

Does anyone else giggle with glee when you see a mech ontop of a building? Once saw a building on fire crumble due to the fire eating the cf, causing the mech to dive headfirst into it...

A favorite of mine was a building with several infantry squads (including two Kanazuchi squads), with a DCMS Grasshopper perched on top of it. Beating the building apart and collapsing it on the infantry was a no-brainer (you don't give Kanazuchis a chance to make life miserable), but having a heavy Mech eat up a wad of CF made it irresistible. The WoB players didn't hesitate for a moment- it must have been quite a surprise for those poor troopers to have several floors and a GHR suddenly pancake on top of them.

[Karimancer]

Some one hand em a nu-Falcon banner...

Woo! Then I can use it to scare rubes when I raid their dirtball planet. Man, I love being a pirate. >:D

[JadeHellbringer]

Woo! Then I can use it to scare rubes when I raid their dirtball planet. Man, I love being a pirate. >:D

"Of COURSE we're the Davion Heavy Guards- didn't you see the FLAG? Now surrender before we have to actually do any work."

[Karimancer]

Hey! Pirating is work. Hard work. It's not easy loading up the DropShip with all those parts and sundries and whatnot that we find. Yes, find. It's not our fault if people leave their valuables lying about unattended. We just take advantage of the bounty providence sees fit to provide.

[JadeHellbringer]

Hey! Pirating is work. Hard work. It's not easy loading up the DropShip with all those parts and sundries and whatnot that we find. Yes, find. It's not our fault if people leave their valuables lying about unattended. We just take advantage of the bounty providence sees fit to provide.

It kills me that I never got to finish the project I had going for CGL last year. You'd have been happy with it.

[Daemion]

Well, if you don't like house-rules, maybe, from now on, you guys overbuild your forces, and if you end up in a situation like that again, you can ask to swap certain units for a matching bv set that works in that situation. There are no hard rules for force building except the numbers and player agreement.

Or, if you don't go that route, and it comes up, ask if you can gain x amount of Bomb/Artillery strikes.

I too am curious which map this is. I think I know, but I'm not positive.

(What's funny to me is that the CF is tied to its infantry protection value. Do you realize that with the simple rule of CF/10 for armored units, you don't need to classify hardened/heavy/medium/light? Only when infantry are involved is the classification required.)


As for avoiding damage, don't forget that a Mech or tank actually causes damage to a building, coming and going. So, the PSR is to see if doing that damage it didn't get poked with a bone steel girder.

[Daryk]

Great, now when i see a golem shrugging off dmg all im going to hear is a certain maids voice.,"no, no...i stay here."

Now I'm feeling my age... the first thing I thought when I saw that was "LANDSHARK!" ;D