Author Topic: Box Set  (Read 48711 times)

Maingunnery

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #270 on: 18 March 2017, 15:29:39 »

I hope that any new box sets take a good look at volume.
Because stores have to take into account the ratio between value and volume.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #271 on: 18 March 2017, 18:29:50 »
Yes....8. Or maybe include a Clan Star for advanced 8 vs 5 play. But such a set could get away with 8.

8 IS Mechs: 2 each Light, Medium, Heavy, & Assault?
5 Clan: 1 Light, 3 Medium, & 1 Heavy?

It'll show the sheer power difference between the two groups, while letting the Clan players know there are heavier Mechs that they don't have access to (yet).

You could have additional sheets for some of the different Clan Mechs (3 Light, 10 Medium, 3 Heavy), to whet people's appetites for more.  Make the Clan Mechs the duel designs rather than pure optimized designs to reflect the Clan philosophy.

For the actual Inner Sphere 3D models, a sneaky way to pick them would be using the Mechs that were produced in the largest numbers in 3025.  Just make sure the designs are sufficiently different in appearance (so if you include the Phoenix Hawk, you wouldn't use the Wasp or Stinger Mechs).

I would also recommend that any such minis be available separately, for a "reasonable" price so the boxed sets themselves aren't snapped up.

Make sure the boxed sets aren't loss leaders, and it would help out.  It also lets current players give the rules away to new players so they can read over the rules while playing, instead of people passing around a single copy.  Buying extra minis would still be an option in case the players want those. 

Maybe. But there could also be more accessories added to the box. Good quality cardboard mapsheets. Instead of movement dice, how about some sort of movement counter? How about a range meter marked to allow you to get the range in hexes?

Range meter can be similar to the blue stick from Battlefleet Gothic (little more than a centimeter ruler for ~45 cm), or just a piece of measuring tape (similar to the cloth rulers used in sewing kits).  The second would be better, as it doesn't impose a minimum box size.

Rules? Rules can be - and probably should be - simplified and the 'Mechs chosen - or designed specifically for the set - should have a limited number of weapons, limited armour, limited availability of certain technologies. It may even be worthwhile to adjust some of the basics - setting a Level 1 at 12m high instead of 6 would remove some LOS complexities for example.

Mechs have the 3D models, but make tanks and infantry be cardboard counters?  This lets the players know which items are the key units on a battlefield.

The other idea would be putting as few 6 m level stuff.  12m forests and buildings would be a good basic ideas.  Also include what would be the closest railroad scale for the battlefield (so players can get more terrain options).

Talen5000

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #272 on: 19 March 2017, 02:26:06 »
8 IS Mechs: 2 each Light, Medium, Heavy, & Assault?
5 Clan: 1 Light, 3 Medium, & 1 Heavy?

It'll show the sheer power difference between the two groups, while letting the Clan players know there are heavier Mechs that they don't have access to (yet).

This would work. Ideally, I'd like the idea of the included minis being a set of shrunken down DA type models. Of course, that probably isn't realistic given the cost and investment needed.

Quote
You could have additional sheets for some of the different Clan Mechs (3 Light, 10 Medium, 3 Heavy), to whet people's appetites for more.  Make the Clan Mechs the duel designs rather than pure optimized designs to reflect the Clan philosophy.

No - probably best to simply include adverts for new Mechs rather than new record Sheets. For Clan Mechs, you could make them Omnis and include a couple more different configurations but if you give the IS 8 Mechs, those should be standard fixed designs.

Quote
For the actual Inner Sphere 3D models, a sneaky way to pick them would be using the Mechs that were produced in the largest numbers in 3025.  Just make sure the designs are sufficiently different in appearance (so if you include the Phoenix Hawk, you wouldn't use the Wasp or Stinger Mechs).

I'd recommend fleshing out two factions...say, Davion and Kurita...rather than generic Mechs. Of course, the danger here is that players will prefer whatever factions are in the set and see everyone else as also rans. But then, you could sell <<House Sets>> as XPacs.

Quote
Range meter can be similar to the blue stick from Battlefleet Gothic (little more than a centimeter ruler for ~45 cm), or just a piece of measuring tape (similar to the cloth rulers used in sewing kits).  The second would be better, as it doesn't impose a minimum box size.

You're going to get a minimum size anyway if you include mapsheets. And maybe some sort of foldable stick for the range counter?

Quote
Mechs have the 3D models, but make tanks and infantry be cardboard counters?  This lets the players know which items are the key units on a battlefield.

Probably a good idea to limit starter sets to Mech on Mech and ignore other vehicle types for the most part. Add in a few cards for aspects like artillery strikes and strafing runs....each players gets 3 cards per game, and can play them at any time. Clans get ASF support and orbital strikes, Davion and Kurita gets artillery and minefields. That way you get to introduce players to the idea but keep the rules simple...just follow the instructions on the card.

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NeonKnight

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #273 on: 19 March 2017, 12:12:01 »
How about a range meter marked to allow you to get the range in hexes?

This does not work with hexes, as it quickly breaks down and skews ranges quite quickly.

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Talen5000

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #274 on: 19 March 2017, 12:55:35 »
This does not work with hexes, as it quickly breaks down and skews ranges quite quickly.

Which is not quite the same as saying such an addition would be wrong for a starter set, especially if there was an interest in speeding gameplay up or making it more "exciting".

I know several players who don't mind using such range markers but aren't that happy at counting hexes, especially when they come across players who count hexes to every target seeking the optimum shot to maximise their damage output.

As it is, I'm not saying it's a good idea. Or a bad idea....just that I think that the playing speed of the game seems to be too slow to catch the attention of causal players today. For a starter set, for an introductory set, for something to just expose players to the setting and basic gameplay, there is - I think -  an argument that some liberties can be taken with the existing rules with an eye to speeding things up. Its not like this hasn't been done before - starter games tend to do away with issues such as the heat scale.

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NeonKnight

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #275 on: 19 March 2017, 13:13:30 »
Which is not quite the same as saying such an addition would be wrong for a starter set, especially if there was an interest in speeding gameplay up or making it more "exciting".

I know several players who don't mind using such range markers but aren't that happy at counting hexes, especially when they come across players who count hexes to every target seeking the optimum shot to maximise their damage output.

As it is, I'm not saying it's a good idea. Or a bad idea....just that I think that the playing speed of the game seems to be too slow to catch the attention of causal players today. For a starter set, for an introductory set, for something to just expose players to the setting and basic gameplay, there is - I think -  an argument that some liberties can be taken with the existing rules with an eye to speeding things up. Its not like this hasn't been done before - starter games tend to do away with issues such as the heat scale.

Except, as I pointed out, it very quickly breaks down, and only works accurately straight down the 6 hex faces. At range 12 (as you can see in my diagram) you could mistakenly target someone at 14 hexes out who would not otherwise be in the appropriate range category.

This also does not address what exactly are the markings on the range finder? You cannot mark it SHORT/MEDIUM/LONG, as this varies for the weapon system. A Machine Gun is 1 hex short, 2 hexes medium, and 3 hexes long, but an ER PPC is 7 hexes short, 14 hexes medium, and 23 hexes long (which using a 'range-finder' reaches out to 26 hexes in some areas).

Inclusion of a range finder in any game that uses any sort of grid (square or hex) will ultimately cause issues as people who use the range finder will find it quickly skews and then come back to be a blemish on the company that uses it. Such devices only work in games that have no preasigned playspace like Warhammer, Mar Machines, or ALPHA STRIKE.
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Talen5000

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #276 on: 20 March 2017, 02:37:29 »
Except, as I pointed out, it very quickly breaks down, and only works accurately straight down the 6 hex faces. At range 12 (as you can see in my diagram) you could mistakenly target someone at 14 hexes out who would not otherwise be in the appropriate range category.

This also does not address what exactly are the markings on the range finder? You cannot mark it SHORT/MEDIUM/LONG, as this varies for the weapon system. A Machine Gun is 1 hex short, 2 hexes medium, and 3 hexes long, but an ER PPC is 7 hexes short, 14 hexes medium, and 23 hexes long (which using a 'range-finder' reaches out to 26 hexes in some areas).

You can mark it 1 hex of range, 2 hexes of range, 3 hexes of range and so on.

You can also mark it as 1 inch of range, 2 inches of ranges, 3 inches of range and so on.

You seem very wedded to the concept of "hexes" but all hexes are are a simple way to measure things. The hex is a gameplay aid, and there isn't any special reason to keep it in a starter set if there is a better way.

The only thing that matters is - would such an aid speed up gameplay and make it more visually appealing to a starter audience? Other games use such a system and there is no law stating that a BattleTech game must only be run with ranges measured in hexes.

So - yes. It would get out of sync with counting hexes...because hexes aren't the same distance in all directions. One axis is longer than the other. OTOH, if you were playing a mini game without a mapsheet, then you'd be measuring the range in inches.

To put it another way - in a starter game set, would it be quicker to count out all the hexed between the firing Mech and all of its targets, or put down a stick and rotate it and at the same time clearly determine the hexes for LOS purposes?

I don't really think the fact it goes out of sync with the actual hex count matters. "Accuracy", for me, isn't an issue when what is 30 hexes in one direction might be the same as 40 in another.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #277 on: 20 March 2017, 02:54:15 »
If the player numbers, and hence sales, really are dire, then I feel that arguing about number or type of minis or whether to include a range finder is like arguing about the color of lifejackets on the Titanic. Surely there are more fundamental issues with the game and intro box?
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FredrikR

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #278 on: 20 March 2017, 04:34:20 »
I hope that any new box sets take a good look at volume.
Because stores have to take into account the ratio between value and volume.

Absolutely true. And this (to me) is why the "problem" with veterans buying a lot of sets would seem like...a good thing?    :)
A means to an end of keeping the box on shelves...as long as a sufficiently large production run can be accomplished in the first place.
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Talen5000

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #279 on: 20 March 2017, 12:16:13 »
Absolutely true. And this (to me) is why the "problem" with veterans buying a lot of sets would seem like...a good thing?    :)
A means to an end of keeping the box on shelves...as long as a sufficiently large production run can be accomplished in the first place.

Veterans buying the box set is good.
It is very good

What is bad is that it also means the box set is not ending up in the hands of its target audience. People who have never played the game before. People who are returning after a long time away.

The Box Set was - as I understand it - intended to be a gateway in to the game. However, it appears many sets were snapped up by veterans looking for cheap minis.

Hence why there is a focus on this talk of how to make the box set attractive to new players - by, for example, including minis - without making it so attractive to existing players that the  box sets are snapped up.

It has been suggested, for example, that the box set does not need so many minis. 8 IS Mechs, and a Star of Clan Mechs seems like a decent mix, especially if you make the Clans OmniMechs and include a couple of configs.

Other suggestions have related to the visual impact of the game or suggestions whereby a starter set can bypass certain elements of the game in order to speed it up, potentially making it more appealing to todays more casual gamer.

I feel the game itself has a lot to offer....but it is often overlooked because it is old, it has a reputation for being slow, it can look too maths based, there is too much looking up books and tables, it doesn't look exciting enough and so on. True or false, the game has a rep and a big barrier to entry with over 30 years of production behind it.

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Maingunnery

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #280 on: 20 March 2017, 12:41:44 »

The number of miniatures in the box set should depend upon what type of game we expect new players to do: 1vs1, 4vs4, 12vs12?

In my view/demo experience, I have mostly used 1vs1 setups and sometimes 4vs4. This leads me to think that the ideal number of miniatures is 4 Mechs (Heavies), with each having 4 house record sheets (simplified) and 1 general record sheet (simplified). The extra record sheets will keep them playing for longer and will allow players to have fun in 4vs4 (a reward for both players buying box sets).
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NeonKnight

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #281 on: 20 March 2017, 12:59:52 »
You can mark it 1 hex of range, 2 hexes of range, 3 hexes of range and so on.

You can also mark it as 1 inch of range, 2 inches of ranges, 3 inches of range and so on.

You seem very wedded to the concept of "hexes" but all hexes are are a simple way to measure things. The hex is a gameplay aid, and there isn't any special reason to keep it in a starter set if there is a better way.


The only thing that matters is - would such an aid speed up gameplay and make it more visually appealing to a starter audience? Other games use such a system and there is no law stating that a BattleTech game must only be run with ranges measured in hexes.

So - yes. It would get out of sync with counting hexes...because hexes aren't the same distance in all directions. One axis is longer than the other. OTOH, if you were playing a mini game without a mapsheet, then you'd be measuring the range in inches.

To put it another way - in a starter game set, would it be quicker to count out all the hexed between the firing Mech and all of its targets, or put down a stick and rotate it and at the same time clearly determine the hexes for LOS purposes?

I don't really think the fact it goes out of sync with the actual hex count matters. "Accuracy", for me, isn't an issue when what is 30 hexes in one direction might be the same as 40 in another.

Except, 'hexes' is how the game is built and played. I am as wedded to the hex system as D&D is to the square grid, and Chess is to an 8x8 black & white game board.

Because, as I pointed out a printed map with actual hexes does not work with linear measurements. I showed you very clearly with a diagram explaining such.

With an intro box set that explains a game played on a hex board, to then give them a straight edge that starts to break down at 5 or 6 hex range by adding an additional hex to the range simply does not work.

PLAYER 1: "here, your range for a short range attack is 6 hexes, us this stick set for 6 hexes"

PLAYER 2: "OK, I shot this guy here *places stick to show in 6 hexes"

PLAYER 3 (counting the hexes): "Actually, he's not in range he's 7 hexes away"

Arguments commence on YES IT IS/NO IT ISN"T, and what a colossal waste of money the starter set is, and why the game company would put something in the game that is so obviously flawed and incorrect.


« Last Edit: 20 March 2017, 13:13:54 by NeonKnight »
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NeonKnight

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #282 on: 20 March 2017, 13:12:08 »
Veterans buying the box set is good.
It is very good

What is bad is that it also means the box set is not ending up in the hands of its target audience. People who have never played the game before. People who are returning after a long time away.

The Box Set was - as I understand it - intended to be a gateway in to the game. However, it appears many sets were snapped up by veterans looking for cheap minis.

Hence why there is a focus on this talk of how to make the box set attractive to new players - by, for example, including minis - without making it so attractive to existing players that the  box sets are snapped up.

It has been suggested, for example, that the box set does not need so many minis. 8 IS Mechs, and a Star of Clan Mechs seems like a decent mix, especially if you make the Clans OmniMechs and include a couple of configs.

Other suggestions have related to the visual impact of the game or suggestions whereby a starter set can bypass certain elements of the game in order to speed it up, potentially making it more appealing to todays more casual gamer.

I feel the game itself has a lot to offer....but it is often overlooked because it is old, it has a reputation for being slow, it can look too maths based, there is too much looking up books and tables, it doesn't look exciting enough and so on. True or false, the game has a rep and a big barrier to entry with over 30 years of production behind it.

And here is an issue, I consider my, well, a veteran. I played the game since around 1984 coming out of High School when I looked at the game and thought "COOL, A ROBOTECH GAME!"

Between 1984 and around 2013-ish, I played many games, bought the PC games, bought the X-Box Mech Assault game, played in the Battletech Simulation Pods, and bought...TWO miniatures. A Marauder (Zentradi Officer's battle Pod) and a Valkerie (Armored Veritech Fighter).

in 2013, I came back to Battletech as my 'Main-Game' giving up entirely D&D (having played that game sine 1979 when it was the Basic Box set, and the Monster Manual, Players Handbook, and Dungeon Master's Guide were just starting to be published), selling off my WarHammer armies (Khemri and Lizard Men), and selling off my WarMachine army (Cryx - 'cause Undead Pirates Y'all!).

This meant in 2013 I had a collection of....ZERO. but I am a veteran have played for over 25 years. So which am I? Am I veteran, and so should not buy a lot of Box Sets because it's not for me? Or am I a new player because I have a collection of nothing?

Yes, I bought around 6 intro box sets (2 of the 25th Anniversary with the crappy plastics, 4 of the good plastics). And I do not think I deprived anyone locally of a box set, as I still see a few locally on game store shelves.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #283 on: 20 March 2017, 13:29:07 »
BattleTech product selling leads to more BattleTech product in stores, leads to it being available to new players.  Intro Boxes selling well will do far more for helping new players than veteran players not buying intro box sets (which would cause stores to not carry product and therefore not be available any way).  On top of the financial problems if CGL makes a box set that doesn't sell well.
More sales = good, less sales = bad.  For veterans and new players. Don't make it complicated.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #284 on: 20 March 2017, 13:38:01 »
BattleTech product selling leads to more BattleTech product in stores, leads to it being available to new players.  Intro Boxes selling well will do far more for helping new players than veteran players not buying intro box sets (which would cause stores to not carry product and therefore not be available any way).  On top of the financial problems if CGL makes a box set that doesn't sell well.
More sales = good, less sales = bad.  For veterans and new players. Don't make it complicated.

And to be honest, I don't see it as a major problem in and of itself. The big issue is not that veterans bought it...its that for whatever reason, probably financial, CGL haven't kept it in print.

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Talen5000

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #285 on: 20 March 2017, 13:43:20 »
Except, 'hexes' is how the game is built and played. I am as wedded to the hex system as D&D is to the square grid, and Chess is to an 8x8 black & white game board.

The game scan be played with hexes and mapsheets - or inches and an empty table. It can be played with pennies or lead minis or cardboard cutouts or large, Dark Age miniatures.

The hexes are a game aid which aids gameplay in many ways.

But a ERPPC has a range of 23 units...on mapsheets, that unit is hexes. On a table top, that unit is inches.

There is no reason the two cannot mix.

Quote
With an intro box set that explains a game played on a hex board, to then give them a straight edge that starts to break down at 5 or 6 hex range by adding an additional hex to the range simply does not work.

Presumably an intro box set would work with what is given.

"Use the hexes for movement...use the straight edge to calculate range, and if you lose the straight edge, just count hexes." is not too complicated an instruction for most players.
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NeonKnight

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #286 on: 20 March 2017, 13:52:05 »
The game scan be played with hexes and mapsheets - or inches and an empty table. It can be played with pennies or lead minis or cardboard cutouts or large, Dark Age miniatures.

The hexes are a game aid which aids gameplay in many ways.

But a ERPPC has a range of 23 units...on mapsheets, that unit is hexes. On a table top, that unit is inches.

There is no reason the two cannot mix.

Presumably an intro box set would work with what is given.

"Use the hexes for movement...use the straight edge to calculate range, and if you lose the straight edge, just count hexes." is not too complicated an instruction for most players.

except.....the range is 23 hexes. If it is inches (and there are rules for it for inches) the range is not 23...it is 46 (see pages 387-388 Strategic Operations)
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Maingunnery

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #287 on: 20 March 2017, 13:56:06 »
except.....the range is 23 hexes. If it is inches (and there are rules for it for inches) the range is not 23...it is 46 (see pages 387-388 Strategic Operations)
Would that really matter for an intro box?
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #288 on: 20 March 2017, 14:16:44 »
And to be honest, I don't see it as a major problem in and of itself. The big issue is not that veterans bought it...its that for whatever reason, probably financial, CGL haven't kept it in print.

I think the problem is that it is priced for new players to buy and then have a certain amount of them continue to buy other products that are more profitable. It isn't doing that, so they should reconfigure it to be profitable to be able to keep it in stores.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #289 on: 20 March 2017, 14:32:22 »
Would that really matter for an intro box?

The point is, as I have tried to explain, is, if one were to have an 'intro' box to get people into to the game, the intro box should cover the rules as used by the game.

Battletech is a 'board-game' played on hex mapsheets. Movement is described as moving x# of hexes, facing a hex side side, turning a hex side, range is in hexes, etc.

To then include a measuring stick in inches (or based on a hex) that is only accurate if one measures straight down one of 6 hex faces because someone does not want to count to 12 or something, is wasteful and runs counter to the rules as presented.

Counter point is, if one then says, OK, lets not go the Hex route, lets go hexless, then the intro box set is not a BATTLETECH intro box, but rather now a ALPHA STRIKE intro box (which would be cool). Because once they play the intro box and decide to go full Battletech rules, the intro box did little to teach them the rules of game.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #290 on: 20 March 2017, 14:44:02 »
I think the problem is that it is priced for new players to buy and then have a certain amount of them continue to buy other products that are more profitable. It isn't doing that, so they should reconfigure it to be profitable to be able to keep it in stores.

If that's the case, then arguably part of the problem is the entire line.  If a game's profitability relies not on just being sold, but on converting players from someone who buys & plays a game to someone who collects a game, then there needs to be a very clear and accessible product to transition on to.

If you have a collectible game, like the old MWDA for example, you buy a starter, then you buy boosters. That's it. Maybe there's boosters from different sets, some older, some newer, different collections, but it's pretty simple.

I know the Intro box has a big pamphlet on the next thing to jump on to. But what does the player actually buy?

Let's say they buy Total Warfare. How does this book benefit them? It adds a bunch of technology, unit types and optional rules to add to their game. One problem, none of the mechs in the intro box have this technology. It has no vehicles, no infantry, no anything.  They can't even use the advanced technology because construction information is missing so even though they have construction rules into the intro set, Total Warfare doesn't add on to them.  I don't believe the intro box has any buildings either, so all of those rules for cities is of no benefit either.

They can buy 3039, but again, all the vehicles, aerospace, etcetera are useless to them.  They add some of the new mechs using the construction rules, and guess at some of the variants, but making these by hand will be a lot of work.

Only record sheets 3039 will directly add to their game in one go, but I'm not sure that's in stores. And again no vehicles & aerospace rules.


So either way, it's a 2-step process, an arguably confusing 2-step process to expand the game.  Finances aside, that's another barrier to collecting that a lot of players may not bother to surmount.

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #291 on: 20 March 2017, 14:44:04 »
The point is, as I have tried to explain, is, if one were to have an 'intro' box to get people into to the game, the intro box should cover the rules as used by the game.

Battletech is a 'board-game' played on hex mapsheets. Movement is described as moving x# of hexes, facing a hex side side, turning a hex side, range is in hexes, etc.

To then include a measuring stick in inches (or based on a hex) that is only accurate if one measures straight down one of 6 hex faces because someone does not want to count to 12 or something, is wasteful and runs counter to the rules as presented.

Counter point is, if one then says, OK, lets not go the Hex route, lets go hexless, then the intro box set is not a BATTLETECH intro box, but rather now a ALPHA STRIKE intro box (which would be cool). Because once they play the intro box and decide to go full Battletech rules, the intro box did little to teach them the rules of game.
I have seen plenty of people play hexless BT, some simple conversion rules for hexless play would be nice for an intro box.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #292 on: 20 March 2017, 14:51:36 »
If that's the case, then arguably part of the problem is the entire line.  If a game's profitability relies not on just being sold, but on converting players from someone who buys & plays a game to someone who collects a game, then there needs to be a very clear and accessible product to transition on to.


Sure, but 30 years later no one has found that product, TROs coming the closest.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #293 on: 20 March 2017, 15:04:02 »
I have seen plenty of people play hexless BT, some simple conversion rules for hexless play would be nice for an intro box.

I'm not saying it isn't.

But I AM saying, you cannot mix hexless Battletech with Hex Battletech seemlessly. There needs to be conversion rules.

And again, never have I said an Intro box cannot use both. I've only said you cannot use both together. It has to be stressed that hex and hexless are independent of each other.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #294 on: 20 March 2017, 15:52:48 »
I'm not saying it isn't.

But I AM saying, you cannot mix hexless Battletech with Hex Battletech seemlessly. There needs to be conversion rules.

And again, never have I said an Intro box cannot use both. I've only said you cannot use both together. It has to be stressed that hex and hexless are independent of each other.

I would add to this that adding the rules for hexless play to the Intro Set sets us down a slippery slope.  If we are going to include rules that completely alter one of the most basic aspects of the game (hexes vs inches), what else are we considering 'introductory'?  Should we include construction rules?  Vehicle and infantry rules?  Aero rules?  What should the minimum level of rules be?

Again, my vote goes to the Quick Start rules found on the BT homepage.  Give it a physical release, a map sheet, and some form of miniature (be it plastic or cardstock). 
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #295 on: 20 March 2017, 15:59:55 »
I would add to this that adding the rules for hexless play to the Intro Set sets us down a slippery slope.  If we are going to include rules that completely alter one of the most basic aspects of the game (hexes vs inches), what else are we considering 'introductory'?  Should we include construction rules?  Vehicle and infantry rules?  Aero rules?  What should the minimum level of rules be?

Again, my vote goes to the Quick Start rules found on the BT homepage.  Give it a physical release, a map sheet, and some form of miniature (be it plastic or cardstock).

Thanx for the support. Was starting to feel I was a lone voice here.

intro should be INTRO (and believe it or not, IWM has an intro set as well). Just enough rules to say, here's how you play.

Want Hexless? Get Startegic Operations.

Want Construction? Get Tech manual (needs a reprint tho)

Want Just Mech on Mech battles? Get the upcoming BattleMech manual

Want the Full-Meal Deal? Get TW

Want massive battles...well...get Alpha Strike but completely different set of rules...so maybe an intro box for that too?

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #296 on: 20 March 2017, 16:46:12 »
The point is, as I have tried to explain, is, if one were to have an 'intro' box to get people into to the game, the intro box should cover the rules as used by the game.

Battletech is a 'board-game' played on hex mapsheets. Movement is described as moving x# of hexes, facing a hex side side, turning a hex side, range is in hexes, etc.

To then include a measuring stick in inches (or based on a hex) that is only accurate if one measures straight down one of 6 hex faces because someone does not want to count to 12 or something, is wasteful and runs counter to the rules as presented.

And the reason players cannot make use of both is.....?

Is there a problem with presenting movement in hexes and range in inches or units? Would it affect gameplay? Make it worse?

Adding a range stick to the set might not be the best idea for several reasons...including that it could impose a minimum size on the box, or that a 30 unit stick would be too cumbersome....

But....it would add another visual element to the game, speed up range determination and simplify LOS determination.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #297 on: 20 March 2017, 16:47:29 »
Assuming CGL had the werewithal to support multiple BT boxed products in print at the same time, I'd love to see both BT and AS intro boxes, with minis, available. They have the potential to both introduce new players, and to appeal to existing players, by means of the combination of new & existing material which can be included (not just minis; new maps which aren't profitable enough to be worth producing independantly, etc.)

But given CGL's relatively small size, and the issues associated with sinking large amounts of their capital into the box-set production process - which is considerably more expensive than print-only, and dependant on a lot more links in the supply chain - they have to do what they can achieve, not what they want, I suspect.

Certainly the "sunk cost" in relaunching Levs looks completely impossible for them to sustain at the moment, although in fairness they haven't abandoned the game. As a side note, one of the biggest changes in the game industry was with the GFC in 2008/2009 - prior to that, most printing companies would accept half payment up front, and the rest after publication (eg. there was a chance to get sales & put that money back into paying the printers). Since then, though, it's 100% up-front, before anything gets done.

Which, in fairness, explains why a lot of people are going kickstarter - it lets you get that money up-front. While I share the emotional wish we could use KS to move BT product, I suspect - purely personal opinion - that TPTB don't want to end up in a RRT-like position, given their small size.
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Re: Box Set
« Reply #298 on: 20 March 2017, 16:56:32 »
I would add to this that adding the rules for hexless play to the Intro Set sets us down a slippery slope.  If we are going to include rules that completely alter one of the most basic aspects of the game (hexes vs inches), what else are we considering 'introductory'?  Should we include construction rules?  Vehicle and infantry rules?  Aero rules?  What should the minimum level of rules be?

Aren't construction rules already in the introductory boxset? Or were those taken out?

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Re: Box Set
« Reply #299 on: 20 March 2017, 17:11:13 »
And the reason players cannot make use of both is.....?

This is my last response because, you seem to want to just be difficult. Right now all you are doing is:

YOU: Why can't we use a straight line to determine range?

ME: It quickly goes off the rails. shows picture to show exactly what I mean.

YOU: Yes, but why can't you use a straight line?


As I showed, a straight linear measurement does not mesh with a hex system. it quickly goes out of whack.

Quote
Is there a problem with presenting movement in hexes and range in inches or units? Would it affect gameplay? Make it worse?

Yes, because at that point it is neither BattleTech nor is it Alpha Strike, but rather now a third variation of the rules. Battletech is played (by and large unless one uses the miniature rules from Strategic Operations) on a hex mapsheet with Hexes denoting range/movement. So, yes it would affect gameplay. Same reason why D&D uses a Square grid and not a hex grid, and why after 1rst edition (which actually had rules for playing D&D without a grid of any kind, and why spells, movement and everything was actually listed in INCHES) everything was changed to reflect a grid game play.

Quote
Adding a range stick to the set might not be the best idea for several reasons...including that it could impose a minimum size on the box, or that a 30 unit stick would be too cumbersome....

But....it would add another visual element to the game, speed up range determination and simplify LOS determination.

Then one can simply use a string for LoS determination, a game does not need to include it.
« Last Edit: 20 March 2017, 17:19:51 by NeonKnight »
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