New Warhammer Sculpt

[jrvk777]

Is there any news on when the re-scuplted Warhammer is coming out? (in plastic or metal)

I think it's been a while now... just wondering.  ::)

Thank you.

[cavingjan]

It was noted at one point in time that it would be one of the last minis that would be done in metal by IWM due to CGL's wishes. At the current rate of new minis, it could be another couple of years.

[pipeline]

 by last do you mean last of the reseens or last period?

[LeoCeballos]

by last do you mean last of the reseens or last period?

Last of the reseens. The conjecture is that CGL is planing on releasing some sort of plastic boxed set (or sets) and they want to do that before the metal minis become available. How far along that is, and weather it will actually beat the metal ones to the finish line, I believe is unknown at this time.

I feel your pain, though. I really, really want to get my hands on that and the Marauder ASAP.

[pipeline]

It makes me sad to think that crappy plastic castings are holding up the show.

[Liam's Ghost]

It makes me sad to think that we can condemn the plastic versions before we actually see them.

Not to mention just because the Warhammer is slated for later doesn't mean the show is being "held up". There are a lot of mechs to get through. Not just new Classics, but all the other designs Iron Wind Metals has on their plate. It's not like they're stopping working just because of this, they're just not doing them in the order you like.

[pheonixstorm]

And by calling the plastics (from the lance packs and last intro box) crappy you are also calling the metal ones crappy. Many of the latest plastic minis produce are a mirror image of the same metal designs.

[Domi1981]

Can someone please explain me the economical idea/concept of putting out minis that slow? I don´t mean the time it takes to create a master sculpt, but I don´t see the reason in artificially delay output. Is this because of license issues or corrupt/bad communication between companies? I mean here are people that would litterally throw their money at the producers but they can not.

[Psycho]

Can someone please explain me the economical idea/concept of putting out minis that slow? I don´t mean the time it takes to create a master sculpt, but I don´t see the reason in artificially delay output. Is this because of license issues or corrupt/bad communication between companies? I mean here are people that would litterally throw their money at the producers but they can not.

It's pretty simple: plastics cost a lot to start up. CGL wants to make money off them. If IWM were to put out metal versions first, the hardcore fans would rush out and buy those as fast as they could, greatly reducing sales of the plastics when they eventually arrived. We're a limited market here. CGL sees a need for plastic minis to appeal to the larger gaming market. At the same time, they know that growth isn't going to be instantaneous and can't count on hordes of new players to make up a shortfall even assuming the classics in plastic are a big hit. They need a good return on their invest to make the plastics viable.

[Wotan]

I see the point why we don't get the same mini from IWM that is planned by CGL itself.
I just don't understand why we have seen those plastic classics for a while now as promo pieces, but there is still no word on any release date. While on the other side we have to accept that the MWO sculpts are distributed in numbers within the potential market - limiting the potential return for CGL for every month they are waiting.

[Heavyguard]

IIRC it was mentioned that they are shopping around for a producer to make the plastics as many do not want to do what is considered a 'one-of' run. In this search they also need to find a producer with good quality (similar to the previous 3500B Intro box plastics) while still maintaining a reason price point on the box set.
CGL has also learned from the Leviathans game and previous boxsets (quality, delays, shipping issues etc) along with been burned previous on announcing release dates (due to circumstances beyond their control) thus they dont do release dates.

[Domi1981]

It's pretty simple: plastics cost a lot to start up. CGL wants to make money off them. If IWM were to put out metal versions first, the hardcore fans would rush out and buy those as fast as they could, greatly reducing sales of the plastics when they eventually arrived. We're a limited market here. CGL sees a need for plastic minis to appeal to the larger gaming market. At the same time, they know that growth isn't going to be instantaneous and can't count on hordes of new players to make up a shortfall even assuming the classics in plastic are a big hit. They need a good return on their invest to make the plastics viable.

Okay, thank you for this explanation. But this creates another question. If metal minis can be such a negative impact on the market reducing purchasing power with the customers, maybe plastics isn´t good product in the first place. Correct if I´m wrong but the usual answer of "nerds" to great products is "I don´t mind buying multiple minis". Or let me phrase it this way, if a product really pulls customers in they will buy both regardless of material.
I for an example buy both vynil AND the CD if I really want a music artists work. That seems crazy and maybe it is, but that´s the kind of approach I deduce of many forum posts. Maybe your market analysts have data that tells another story, but I´m sure releasing as fast as possible wont do you guys any harm. ^-^

[cavingjan]

I suspect (I have no inside knowledge other than general costs of molds) that setting aside such a large chunk of month is one factor.

With that said, even if IWM was given thee green light to do them all today, it would still take some time to make them. They only seem to have enough room in the CBT master mold schedule to do four to six molds per quarter without affecting their contract work.

[Psycho]

Okay, thank you for this explanation. But this creates another question. If metal minis can be such a negative impact on the market reducing purchasing power with the customers, maybe plastics isn´t good product in the first place. Correct if I´m wrong but the usual answer of "nerds" to great products is "I don´t mind buying multiple minis". Or let me phrase it this way, if a product really pulls customers in they will buy both regardless of material.
I for an example buy both vynil AND the CD if I really want a music artists work. That seems crazy and maybe it is, but that´s the kind of approach I deduce of many forum posts. Maybe your market analysts have data that tells another story, but I´m sure releasing as fast as possible wont do you guys any harm. ^-^

I think there's some merit to what you're saying. I also think that it comes down to scale. If we were talking tens of thousands of copies of any given mini, and even more for popular ones, then yeah, you could see metal and plastic co-existing peacefully. What I'm given to understand is that we're not talking anywhere close to that, and that's where the financial concern kicks in. To lay down a hypothetical with numbers (because I don't have actual numbers, and wouldn't be allowed to share them even if I did); let's say everyone is expecting the Warhammer to do awesome and sell 2000 copies over the first couple years. It could take IWM $1000 to get set up. It could take CGL $10000. Now, if IWM gets out of the gate first, makes the big splash, and nabs all the first-round customers, and the first 6 months or so of production, that's going to be a huge chunk of the projected sales. Then CGL's left working with half the sales to make up their costs. That will leave them either having to price the minis higher than they'd want, or eat the loss of cash for an extended period until they broke even. Repeat that process 20-24 times over for the estimate of how many plastics CGL is rumored to have planned. If you were going to invest a quarter million dollars or so in a project, wouldn't you want to see the biggest and fastest return on that investment? Another point to remember is that AFAIK, CGL sees nothing from IWM's sales. Any player who would quite willingly buy plastic or metal, and buys metal because it's available first is a customer lost for CGL, not a return on the investment.
 

[nckestrel]

Okay, thank you for this explanation. But this creates another question. If metal minis can be such a negative impact on the market reducing purchasing power with the customers, maybe plastics isn´t good product in the first place. Correct if I´m wrong but the usual answer of "nerds" to great products is "I don´t mind buying multiple minis". Or let me phrase it this way, if a product really pulls customers in they will buy both regardless of material.
I for an example buy both vynil AND the CD if I really want a music artists work. That seems crazy and maybe it is, but that´s the kind of approach I deduce of many forum posts. Maybe your market analysts have data that tells another story, but I´m sure releasing as fast as possible wont do you guys any harm. ^-^

BattleTech needs a big "splash".  And that splash isn't just with customers, it's with distributors and store owners.  Store owners need to see sales so they will order more, so that customers will see them on shelves and buy more.  Distributors need minimum numbers of orders to even carry an item.   Spreading out sales over multiple SKUs, especially from a different company, will severely hurt BattleTech.  Has hurt BattleTech.  BattleTech doesn't need a few more models to sell to existing fans, it needs to have an impact on the market.  It's struggling to do so right now. The Box Set (sets?) are the chance to do that.  There only so much you can risk that market impact. 

[LeoCeballos]

BattleTech needs a big "splash".  And that splash isn't just with customers, it's with distributors and store owners.  Store owners need to see sales so they will order more, so that customers will see them on shelves and buy more.  Distributors need minimum numbers of orders to even carry an item.   Spreading out sales over multiple SKUs, especially from a different company, will severely hurt BattleTech.  Has hurt BattleTech.  BattleTech doesn't need a few more models to sell to existing fans, it needs to have an impact on the market.  It's struggling to do so right now. The Box Set (sets?) are the chance to do that.  There only so much you can risk that market impact.

I agree with this. Frankly, the new player experience right now is a MESS. Inventory on the intro boxed set is almost gone, and even the lance boxes seem to be dwindling. The starting experience for Alpha Strike is similarly bad. I'm slowly making my way back into the hobby, but then i have a lot of previous experience. Even then I'm a little lost (like, wtf is up with hex maps these days?).

However, there is a golden opportunity coming up. There is the new Mech Manual; there is the warm reception Alpha Strike seems to have gotten, and there are the new Battletech video games (MWO, MW5, and the HBS Battletech Turn-Based Game). There are also the new fantastic reseen sculpts. The trick now is to leverage all these things together to make a big impact.

If it were up to me, I'd release a new boxed set with the Mech Manual and a dozen or so reseens, and maybe Alpha Strike rules, all togeather later in the year to coincide with the launch of the HBS game. Focus on 'mechs, focus on the 3025-3039 era, and get the nice new sculpts that are simultaneously classic but also evoke the style of the new Pirhana/HBS versions. Maybe also include the fast play mech-only Alpha-Strike quickplay rules and appropriate cards in there since they share minis; let the player decide which version of the game to launch to from there.

But yes, a well thought out relaunch is needed, preferably sooner rather than later, but I understand why holding back the new sculpts is a good move to generate maximum buzz/impact. Having the old timers drooling and talking about it at the same time you offer the new players a great package sounds like a good recipe for a big roll-out.

[pipeline]

And by calling the plastics (from the lance packs and last intro box) crappy you are also calling the metal ones crappy. Many of the latest plastic minis produce are a mirror image of the same metal designs.

The casting is where I take issue, not the sculpt.

[Wotan]

@Psycho:
As said before i totally understand that CGL is not allowing IWM to release Classic minis that are planned by CGL. I just wonder why we don't see anything from CGL in two years now since the announcement of the Classics.
We know that BT has a small number on customers compared to other games. Now those small numbers are waiting for the great classic sculpts for two years. CGL is not able to bring them to production - no reasons known, no release date available. What do you think how long the few customers will wait until they throw their attention to other games?
I'm not talking about old fans like me. I will even be happy when i see the release of the new Warhammer in 2050. But you will not get new customers if you sell no products. Frustration from waiting on minis will also impact selling numbers in other BT products. Enthusiasm in new minis will boost other sales. From that point of view i would expect high pressure from CGL to bring the classics to life - no matter if they are from CGL or IWM.

[Domi1981]

@ Psycho & @Nckestrel: Jesus Christ I didn´t know that sales figures would be THAT low. If so I would leave the whole "plastic-experiment" at all. I mean, the Warhammer is basically one of the core mechs, one of the 14 unseen we couldn´t get for so many decades. I would´ve thought that sales figures would be at least in the higher ten of thousands. Battletech really needs a big "splash".
Wouldn´t it be best to drop the whole franchise in a favor of creating a new brand? Seriously the whole rights issue makes it impossible to create a thriving business. I would start with a professional advertising campaign but that´s not possible with all the licenses and companies that claim property.
Has anybody from the accounting office ever done a revaluation? Battletech is suffering since decades, it´s like nursing a sick pet to death.
Wouldn´t it be best to keep the rights we really have and create everything around it anew? Sure it would be tough but the rights issue is crippling and I don´t see that this will motivate any employers. Imagine you are a carpenter and have to wait for permission to use your tools because you sold the rights of using the equipment room to the painter. [wildandcrazy]
We have a great product, awesome designers and concept artists, genius writers, but economical conditions that are housemade bureaucratic monsters. I hope that CGL (or whoever has the rights to Battletech, I´m not sure anymore) quickly finds a way to stop shooting itself in the foot. This brand cannot survive this modus operandi forever and that would be sad.

[Maingunnery]

Box sets are needed to increase the player base (really difficult with the state of the boardgame industry), also getting a good production deal is very difficult (cost, quality, mold storage, minimum order quantity).

[CJKeys]

the IP is actually not in as bad of a place as you describe.
Topps own BattleTech
CGL Licences BattleTech
IWM Licences the rights to make BattleTech Minis
Microspft own the digital rights to Battletech

CGL and IWM seem to live in a very reasonable and friendly symbiotic relationship.

Things are different from the older top down model before FASA needed money then broke up, they owned Ral-Partha, they owned FASA Studios, who did all the video games, they owned BattleTech. They didn't need to get permission from party A to make things for party B. They just did it.

Personally, I am happy to wait for the nuSeen Mechs and give my money to CGL. I am still trying to catch up and make my mech forces compatible with multiple eras (SL, SW, Clan Invasion, Civil War, Jihad, ad Dark Age) and I have been playing since I was 15 (Thats a good 20+ years of minis).

I guess what I am saying is to give them time because good things come to those who wait.

@ Psycho & @Nckestrel: Jesus Christ I didn´t know that sales figures would be THAT low. If so I would leave the whole "plastic-experiment" at all. I mean, the Warhammer is basically one of the core mechs, one of the 14 unseen we couldn´t get for so many decades. I would´ve thought that sales figures would be at least in the higher ten of thousands. Battletech really needs a big "splash".
Wouldn´t it be best to drop the whole franchise in a favor of creating a new brand? Seriously the whole rights issue makes it impossible to create a thriving business. I would start with a professional advertising campaign but that´s not possible with all the licenses and companies that claim property.
Has anybody from the accounting office ever done a revaluation? Battletech is suffering since decades, it´s like nursing a sick pet to death.
Wouldn´t it be best to keep the rights we really have and create everything around it anew? Sure it would be tough but the rights issue is crippling and I don´t see that this will motivate any employers. Imagine you are a carpenter and have to wait for permission to use your tools because you sold the rights of using the equipment room to the painter. [wildandcrazy]
We have a great product, awesome designers and concept artists, genius writers, but economical conditions that are housemade bureaucratic monsters. I hope that CGL (or whoever has the rights to Battletech, I´m not sure anymore) quickly finds a way to stop shooting itself in the foot. This brand cannot survive this modus operandi forever and that would be sad.

[Ang Moh Siao]

Yeah, yeah.  I guess I understand all the arguments.  I suppose there's entirely good reasons why they won't distibute that there new Warhammer yet.

But sorry, I ain't waitin' no more on them.  I gots me some w'hammin' t'do.  Time to take matters into m'own hands, I reckon.

[Psycho]

I'm not talking about old fans like me. I will even be happy when i see the release of the new Warhammer in 2050. But you will not get new customers if you sell no products. Frustration from waiting on minis will also impact selling numbers in other BT products. Enthusiasm in new minis will boost other sales. From that point of view i would expect high pressure from CGL to bring the classics to life - no matter if they are from CGL or IWM.

I hear you. I don't have answers. I've been saying for a year+ that we need an injection of energy, a push, something to be excited about. The Classics are a nice move, but they need to be in people's hands to do any real good.

@ Psycho & @Nckestrel: Jesus Christ I didn´t know that sales figures would be THAT low. If so I would leave the whole "plastic-experiment" at all. I mean, the Warhammer is basically one of the core mechs, one of the 14 unseen we couldn´t get for so many decades. I would´ve thought that sales figures would be at least in the higher ten of thousands. Battletech really needs a big "splash".
Wouldn´t it be best to drop the whole franchise in a favor of creating a new brand?
...
We have a great product, awesome designers and concept artists, genius writers, but economical conditions that are housemade bureaucratic monsters. I hope that CGL (or whoever has the rights to Battletech, I´m not sure anymore) quickly finds a way to stop shooting itself in the foot. This brand cannot survive this modus operandi forever and that would be sad.

Remember that IWM would only send a mini to their Archive if it sold less than 6 copies in a year. Not 60, not 100 or 200. Six. And there were hundreds of minis in the archive. Some of them released just a few years ago. I don't know what their threshold for keeping a mini in distribution is, but it shouldn't be surprising that there are stories of distributors and retailers not wanting to stock BT because it doesn't move enough to make it worthwhile to them.

Ultimately, I think it circles back to CGL catering to old fans more than building a property that gets people banging down the door. Having many eras available to play in is nice, but it spreads the effort over many products that are confusing to new players and may well be skipped by the existing ones. I'm not into the older eras, and have little interest in Age of War, SL, or early SW stuff. Others like and will buy it. It's not that one of us is right and one is wrong, we're simply making choices on what we enjoy and spend our money on. BT doesn't really have the luxury of being able to do that, but has anyway. It makes for a poor return on their investment. Another example for me is HB:HK. I like the in-depth info, I like Ben's writing... but another book set in 3067 coming out now when the timeline is 3150-ish holds so little appeal I actually removed it from an order and bought the Infinity Artbook 1 instead, because I also really enjoy looking at the development of cool new art and decided I'd enjoy reading and looking over that book more. BT needs eye candy, and they need a solid direction that pulls both new and old players in. Of course, if the moves are too extreme, they lose their existing players and the whole thing collapses. That's where I can appreciate some deliberation and careful planning being put into effect.

[Wotan]

I hear you. I don't have answers. I've been saying for a year+ that we need an injection of energy, a push, something to be excited about. The Classics are a nice move, but they need to be in people's hands to do any real good.

Then we have the same point here. ;)

Remember that IWM would only send a mini to their Archive if it sold less than 6 copies in a year. Not 60, not 100 or 200. Six. And there were hundreds of minis in the archive. Some of them released just a few years ago. I don't know what their threshold for keeping a mini in distribution is, but it shouldn't be surprising that there are stories of distributors and retailers not wanting to stock BT because it doesn't move enough to make it worthwhile to them.

BT fields to many different minis for any retailer to stock. I think we all agree that there are so many minis, that might be of interest for us hardcore fans, but not for the usual customer. On the other side i'm sure there is also a list of must have and top seller minis. Those should be pushed for distribution in the shop. Unusual or new minis can easily reordered from IWM. But the top sellers should be visible in a shop beside the box to invite new players.
On the other hand the long and active timeline of BT is a huge problem for the shops, but on the other hand one of the reasons i still play BT as i can choose my battles from a wide era. But yes, same as for the minis there is no guidance for a shop what is needed to play BT or should be available for a good start.

[LeoCeballos]

. On the other side i'm sure there is also a list of must have and top seller minis. Those should be pushed for distribution in the shop. Unusual or new minis can easily reordered from IWM. But the top sellers should be visible in a shop beside the box to invite new players.

I feel like Battletech needs to rally around its "core" era, the 3025 to 3055 era; late succession wars to early clan invasion. Its the most popular era, has a tight ruleset, and most of the spinoffs are based in these eras (including the latest video games). There is also an extra advantage to most 3025 mechs: most of them are (in-game)old, popular, and get continuous updates, so as long as you don't mind proxying variants (or doing minor mods), your Warhammer, Atlas, Shadow Hawk, etc. will have a playable version from the Star Legue era to the post Jihad - good core units to sell. The Alpha Strike boxes were a fantastic first step! We need more of that.

The only drawback to this is that some of those early designs are a little clunky/dorky looking. Not knocking them; even the worst have some good ideas in them. I think the AS sets made some good picks (considering they were avoiding Unseen) but there are still a few that are...iffy. Reimagining some of those 3025 mechs with the same sensibilities that are being applied to the new reseen might also be worthwhile. MWO has shown that it can be done, while still (with a few exceptions) keeping the "feel" of the original intact.

[Domi1981]

Very good points so far from all users.
To create a fanbase in todays world we would need something that creates a massive emotional pull effect. A HBO-series for example, but at least on the script writing level of the Expanse. The stories in the novellas i read were usually standard fodder like you get in Tom Clancy or Star Wars dime novels, but nothing that could break through the glass ceiling which comes with "do it with one novella". That´s why the grey death books were standing out. Every BT-fan I know talks about the GDL because that was the "fishhook" that pulled them into the BT universe, and Mechs still were scary, something special and rare from the past of the IS. Then came the board game and City Tech. Most of us weren´t aware of the bigger product spectrum the Americans had and I think that was quite good because everything that came after City Tech was looked on as an addition to the basic game and stuff one enjoyed reading while sitting on the John.  ;D
I don´t know if thats the difference between America and Germany back then, but I was the only one with more than a company of 12 mechs. It´s not that people weren´t longing for more, but back in the days there was nothing more those guys were interested in. No BT-Movie, no new hexmaps or at least markers to create their own maps, nothing that created the feeling of being part of a thriving universe like you had with Star trek or Star Wars.
It´s not that our refrigerator is empty but we should pull out the pans while the produce is still fresh.
And don´t tell me Mechs aren´t sexy for the younger generation. look at all the Mecha themed games out there. If CGL is smart it will help HBS with their work to hype a new trend. Implement fake adds within the game to lure kids into the universe, do interviews with older gamers of the board game and role play game and put them on Youtube. Jeez, if I type in "Battletech" on Youtube there is basically no content made by CGL. Should I send you guys an old camera or is it some license issue again?! I´n sure the community is there to help :) O0

[YingJanshi]

I'm waiting on the minis as much as anyone else, but then again, I don't feel nostalgic about the Unseen/reseen/preseen/who'sseen mess. I've been playing for about a decade and a half and those 'Mechs were a long dead issue by the time I got in. So while I might take a couple, they're not high on my mini list. (And anyways I tend to play Civil War era and on).

And as for keeping box sets in production, those are without a doubt the most resource intensive product they put out. And whenever you have such a high-value product (at least at the scale of your business) you want it to be on the shelves for as little time as possible. Anything just sitting on a shelf is lost money.
(I work in production/warehousing, so I may not be aware of every issue involved, but I do know the basics.)

Also, from all the info I've ever been able to glean, the biggest purchasers of the box sets aren't new players but experienced players picking up multiple sets for the cheap minis. (I'm not going to begrudge CGL any sales, but people buying 6+ box sets will cut down on the number of new players that could be exposed to it in stores...)


What I'm most interested in seeing is the coming new era. It's a completely blank slate, and one I'm hoping CGL will be able to reinvent (or at least rejuvenate the plot line to something new and exciting).

[CJKeys]

I feel like Battletech needs to rally around its "core" era, the 3025 to 3055 era; late succession wars to early clan invasion. Its the most popular era, has a tight ruleset, and most of the spinoffs are based in these eras (including the latest video games). There is also an extra advantage to most 3025 mechs: most of them are (in-game)old, popular, and get continuous updates, so as long as you don't mind proxying variants (or doing minor mods), your Warhammer, Atlas, Shadow Hawk, etc. will have a playable version from the Star Legue era to the post Jihad - good core units to sell. The Alpha Strike boxes were a fantastic first step! We need more of that.

The only drawback to this is that some of those early designs are a little clunky/dorky looking. Not knocking them; even the worst have some good ideas in them. I think the AS sets made some good picks (considering they were avoiding Unseen) but there are still a few that are...iffy. Reimagining some of those 3025 mechs with the same sensibilities that are being applied to the new reseen might also be worthwhile. MWO has shown that it can be done, while still (with a few exceptions) keeping the "feel" of the original intact.

the late succession wars have pros and cons, biggest pro, system is at its simplest, biggest con, the system is at its simplest. Until the advent of DHS, Clan PPCs, XL Engines, and Gauss Rifles, Certain mechs are neigh unkillable and can drag out what would be otherwise quick games. The FCCW would make a good jumping in point without too much exposition.

[LeoCeballos]

the late succession wars have pros and cons, biggest pro, system is at its simplest, biggest con, the system is at its simplest. Until the advent of DHS, Clan PPCs, XL Engines, and Gauss Rifles, Certain mechs are neigh unkillable and can drag out what would be otherwise quick games. The FCCW would make a good jumping in point without too much exposition.

I don't disagree with this. Which is why I went as far as the Clan Invasion era; the "Star League" equivalent tech of about 3048 or so is a good place to be for the IS, and the Clans, well, are the Clans. You can focus the line around the best of the classics reseens and other IS mechs and the most famous clan omnis, and keep those in plastic. Warhammers, Marauders, Griffins, Battlemasters, Atlases, Catapults, Locusts, etc. with Timber Wolves, Dire Wolves, Novas, Kit Foxes, Stormcrows, etc. You keep those available in plastic with variant parts to do a few configs, and then let IWM take care of the later eras and more esoteric 'mechs; and like I said, those classic IS 'mechs all have later versions according to Sarna (I never really played post FCCW, except for a bit of Clickytech).   

[cavingjan]

The only problem is that you chew significantly into your strategic partners best sellers. If that is the portion of IWM's sales that keep them happily making minis for battletech, you shoot yourself in the foot by making molds you most likely will never be able to keep around long enough to make a profit on. This only works when both companies make money.

[jrvk777]

Very good discussion here, folks!  8)

For me, I just wanted my own Warhammer mini that I saw two years ago at Gencon.  ;)

The Battletech Turn based game has 41,733 backers that "know" about Battletech... Could we perhaps add a Lance of the Re-seens (whether plastic or pewter) as one of the "crowdfunded" gear like the steins or coasters?

Just a thought. Happy to hear suggestions on how we can help CGL make Battletech popular again...

[Cache]

Could we perhaps add a Lance of the Re-seens (whether plastic or pewter) as one of the "crowdfunded" gear like the steins or coasters?

Not just a nitpick, but also for clarification, "Reseen" is the term given to the 3067-era Project Phoenix upgrades that gave us proxy images for the "Unseen". The new retconned images you're asking about are referred to as "Classics" or "nuSeen".

[LeoCeballos]

Not just a nitpick, but also for clarification, "Reseen" is the term given to the 3067-era Project Phoenix upgrades that gave us proxy images for the "Unseen". The new retconned images you're asking about are referred to as "Classics" or "nuSeen".

With maybe a couple of exceptions, I will be proxying the Classics/nuSeen in place of the "Project Phoenix" variants, ASAP :p Starting with the Shadow Hawk I just ordered.

The only problem is that you chew significantly into your strategic partners best sellers. If that is the portion of IWM's sales that keep them happily making minis for battletech, you shoot yourself in the foot by making molds you most likely will never be able to keep around long enough to make a profit on. This only works when both companies make money.

I understand this, but I think that at the moment Battletech is pretty stagnant. I mean, I don't know what the numbers are for which molds sell how much on IWM, but its not like they're making a ton of money on the Unseen... since they can't make them at all. And every mayor game out there these days makes most of their stuff in plastics.

By limiting the plastics to a certain era/core group of mechs, they can get new players started fast... exactly as they are doing now with the Alpha Strike boxes. IWM can produce the vast variety of mechs that are frankly too many to produce as plastic boxed sets in large volumes (unless you're Games Workshop). The plastics are needed to get new players started and collecting, and then you hit them with cool exotic designs (in metal) once they're serious about the hobby. For example, my current project is to paint a Company with 2 AS boxed sets and 4 metals of rarer mechs I like.

[cavingjan]

If you notice, the plastic minis that have been produced for the lance packs haven't been on the top sellers lists for a very long time. I would guess that was by design.

With the exception of the Age of War, any era has too many minis to be all made from plastic due to the start up cost.

One of the things that probably should have been done was a time jump to an era when only omnis exist. That would allow you to make just a few base minis and have variant parts. These could then be done in plastic.

[pheonixstorm]

With a large enough mold you can make a ton of minis. Though my idea is a single mold with a block for each mini that can be easily swapped out to make an intro box or lance packs or just an entire stack of mech x. The typical injection mold can be pretty complex if you spend enough on it. If I had the proper equipment I could probably remake the entire intro box, or at the very least a lance pack, for less than 25k. I have seen the injection machines for as little as 10k for a decent sized one. equipment and a blank mold or two may run 5-10k, maybe more.

So maybe it would be better for CGL to invest in IWM to start up their own plastic line rather than find some large unknown company to handle everything. At least then CGL would know they were going to get a quality product from a trustworthy company.

[Cache]

So maybe it would be better for CGL to invest in IWM to start up their own plastic line rather than find some large unknown company to handle everything. At least then CGL would know they were going to get a quality product from a trustworthy company.

That would assume IWM has any interest in plastics. I wouldn't make that assumption.

[pheonixstorm]

No, the assumption is that even if they wanted to they don't have the room for the machines considering the size. I believe there is an old post somewhere that it was at least looked into but no mention as to why they didn't.

[Wrangler]

Its taking too long to produce the new Classic Warhammer figure and the other figs slated for "plastic first". 

I've gotten my Classics from Ironwind has already put out. However, It's been what? Going on two years since the NeoClassics came out, they have yet to put anything out?  I understand CGL wants to make New Classics right and make a profit that they sorely needed, but their going kill business if they keep having these unexplained delays.

EDIT: Sorry guys, I was typing bit too fast for my own good to catch the grammar mistakes i made.  :-\

[Burning Chrome]

Yep...

[Reldn]

Its taking too long to produce the new Classic Warhammer figure and the other figs slated for "plastic first". 

I've gotten my Classics from Ironwind has already put out. However, It's been what? Going on two years since the NeoClassics came out, they have yet to put anything out?  I understand CGL wants to make New Classics right and make a profit that they sorely needed, but their going kill business if they keep having these unexplained delays.

EDIT: Sorry guys, I was typing bit too fast for my own good to catch the grammar mistakes i made.  :-\

Wholeheartedly agreed. As much as I hate saying it, and I really hope I'm wrong, but, I think our chances of ever seeing any new plastics are pretty much nil at this point.

[Hayden.]

On the contrary, I think this must be working well for them... as much as I want the Warhammer and Marauder, their lack of availability has steered me to the new classics that *are* available.  Instead of picking up Warhammers and Marauders, I've been picking up Shadowhawks and Wasps (which I probably would have passed over for years, were the aforementioned 'mechs available).  I'm just happy to be along for the ride (I do worry about literally dying before I get my hands on a new Marauder).

[Wrangler]

Sadly, i think so bad. I know a guy who in my monthly demo game i play with bough a old school Plastech Locust because he could get his hands on ReClassic one.  I wish they were able bring in someone dedicated to do certain projects to make sure someone isn't wearing too many hats and not able get stuff going.

[StoneRhino]

Its possible that the revised 3025 mechs are low priority considering the current era of the game leaves them in the past, with the reseen between 3025 and 3145. Those that were around for the originals probably have a ton of them, or if they wanted them probably purchased them since they became the unseen. It is likely that those that started after 3050 simply do not care about these mechs. Then we have MWO that has created their own versions of every mech they have added, which has covered a number of those unseens.

The increasing metal mini prices are not likely the favorite thing of any player out there. Not everyone is seeing increases in their ability to purchase unnecessary items such as minis. While BT has always been cheeto and penny counter friendly, people do not stop at the game tables of those using paper counters as readily as they do with a table full of painted minis.

Part of the problem is that the demand for minis is low due to the lack of urging by the devs or the game to buy, buy, buy. Hell, IIRC, the Kurita combat manual suggests that you cannot have more then 1 of a particular model of a mech, which can be an issue if you only prefer a particular variant of a mech. AS helps to increase the number of minis that players feel the urge to purchase though. Doing so helps to increase sales to those that are already fans of the game, thus reducing the need to find new blood to make sales in order to turn a profit. However, the increased costs are going to impact those same players.

If there was a steady supply of starter boxes then I might be able to get someone to buy one. Seeing the boxes being listed at $500 or some other crazy nonsense is not helping. Its not helping becuase not everyone goes to game shops to look for stuff and a $500 intro box is going to scare even a hardcore 40k player off. If there were starter boxes on the shelf I could at least show it to those players that buzz around our game table, and those that are willing to talk for a few minutes. I hate seeing them look around  at the walls because I know that they are looking for product that isn't there.

The main issue is not a handful of minis that may not be relevant to those that are new to the game. The issue is getting those box sets rolling out to the shops.

[LeoCeballos]

Then we have MWO that has created their own versions of every mech they have added, which has covered a number of those unseens.

I think those reseens deliberately look more like the MWO versions; the Warhammer and the Marauder in particular. Same thing with the Stalker II looking a LOT like the MWO Stalker. I think there is definitely an intent to capitalize on MWO, MW5, and the new upciming BTech game. If there isn't, there definitely should be.

[SteelRaven]

I think those reseens deliberately look more like the MWO versions; the Warhammer and the Marauder in particular....

As a artist and a fan of the original designs, the only way the two look alike is they still resemble the Macross inspirations. The Warhammer has totally different arms, cockpit and chest, the Marauders cockpit and dorsal gun are closer to the Phoenix look.  Someone made a line up of the Tomahawk, Classic and MWO warhammer to line up the weapon placement. Can't find it but I'll post a link if I do.

[IAMCLANWOLF]

I think those reseens deliberately look more like the MWO versions; the Warhammer and the Marauder in particular. Same thing with the Stalker II looking a LOT like the MWO Stalker.

Well, technically... The MWO Marauder was based on the original ShimmeringSword (aka Anthony Scroggins) design. The original ShimmeringSword design was modified to be the new classic BT MAD. So, in a way the classic BT design came first. As for the Warhammer-- I don't follow you. To my eye they look quite dissimilar...

To further confuse the issue; Anthony Scroggins and Alex Iglesias (MWO concept artist) have a similar style approach. Also, while Anthony provided the artwork for almost all of the new classic lineup. Alex tackled the new classic Battlemaster.

I think there is definitely an intent to capitalize on MWO, MW5, and the new upciming BTech game. If there isn't, there definitely should be.

There is certainly always an attempt to rope-in new players from video game releases. Sure. However, "capitalize on" somehow seems to suggest the wrong intent. And, again BT employed both of the above artists first. <shrug>

[LeoCeballos]

There is certainly always an attempt to rope-in new players from video game releases. Sure. However, "capitalize on" somehow seems to suggest the wrong intent. And, again BT employed both of the above artists first. <shrug>

I didn't mean to imply there was any sort of "intent" beyond making/keeping Battletech popular, profitable, and expanding the hobby. ANY effort made to keep the brand unified despite the fragmented rights is a GOOD thing. You're telling me its more accidental, and that if anything it was PGI's good move to hire a former Battletech artist (Alex); well then props to them. Whatever you may think of the phrase "capitalized on" its way better than "failed to capitalize on". As in: wasted opportunity. As "keepers" of the Battletech tabletop game, they would not be doing their jobs right if they ignored the chance to draw new players in.

As a artist and a fan of the original designs, the only way the two look alike is they still resemble the Macross inspirations. The Warhammer has totally different arms, cockpit and chest, the Marauders cockpit and dorsal gun are closer to the Phoenix look.  Someone made a line up of the Tomahawk, Classic and MWO warhammer to line up the weapon placement. Can't find it but I'll post a link if I do.

As another artist and fan of the original designs since Robotech, I have to disagree. The resemblance might be accidental, but both designs de-emphasize the Tomahawk's "hump" and make the torso a bit shallower front-to-back than the Destroid. They both also end up beefing up the upper arms a bit. The cockpit is in general closer to the top of the mech and more recessed than the original (in the case of the MWO one maybe that is just the removal of the hump). I also feel like in general the style of the detailing is similar; that is more I think due to mech rendering having moved in a certain direction in general, but still adds to the feel of similarity; less curves and more angular facets, for example. A BIG difference, of course, is that the MWO mech does away with the shoulder "pauldrons" entirely, where the "Classics" design emphasizes them a great deal, which I admit does lead to a fairly different silhouette from certain angles.

[SteelRaven]

I didn't say there are not similarities, both are try to get the aesthetics of the original Tomahawk without copying the design. If you want something more original, here you go:

 

[LeoCeballos]

I didn't say there are not similarities, both are try to get the aesthetics of the original Tomahawk without copying the design. If you want something more original, here you go:

Why on Earth would I want something "more original" for the Warhammer? Both the MWO and especially the Classics versions of the Warhammer are fantastic! I've been going on about the Classics like the are the best thing since sliced bread, why would I want the Reseen? Both MWO and the Classics are fantastic updates of the Tomahawk/Unseen design, and I feel like they took a similar approach with the update, and that is a very good thing, intentional or not. 

[SteelRaven]

Why on Earth would I want something "more original" for the Warhammer? Both the MWO and especially the Classics versions of the Warhammer are fantastic! I've been going on about the Classics like the are the best thing since sliced bread, why would I want the Reseen? Both MWO and the Classics are fantastic updates of the Tomahawk/Unseen design, and I feel like they took a similar approach with the update, and that is a very good thing, intentional or not.

Sorry, I misread the tone of your post. I guess the number of hyper critical post regarding new art has left me defensive regarding the designs I actually like.

Also, couldn't find the original post with the comparison shot but I had pic on my PC.
http://68.media.tumblr.com/6d300a85d8f416f4246e62823457f9d5/tumblr_onaex3ZKWx1rbt69ao1_1280.jpg

[LeoCeballos]

Sorry, I misread the tone of your post. I guess the number of hyper critical post regarding new art has left me defensive regarding the designs I actually like.

Also, couldn't find the original post with the comparison shot but I had pic on my PC.
http://68.media.tumblr.com/6d300a85d8f416f4246e62823457f9d5/tumblr_onaex3ZKWx1rbt69ao1_1280.jpg

That's a cool pic. I actually think it illustrates my point about proportions. Regardless, I love all three of those. I actually think the Classics Warhammer is closer to the Unseen than the MWO one, other than the big shoulders, which I don't dislike.

But I'm surprised to hear that you've come across negative feelings about the "Classics" versions. Most reactions I've seen have been very positive, especially compared to Project Phoenix! The only negative thing I've heard is, well, the reason for this thread... we want the minis already, stop teasing us! :p

I actually just got my Classics Shadow Hawk and its fantastic. Can't wait to get working on it! 

[SteelRaven]

People are emotionally invested in the original designs, (I wasn't above saying a few stupid things in the past) and arguments over aesthetics never go away. Most 'meh' comments disappeared after everyone got a look at the prototype minis but considering there is still a clique who are hostel towards MWO athletics, I always get the impression the MWO=Classics has some sort of negative connotation attached.     

[pheonixstorm]

I think of the MWO designs as better designs (art wise) of the project phoenix work rather than staying true to the Macross designs. CGL classic designs follow more closely to the Macross design IMO.

To me the MWO Warhammer and Marauder are the least like the original Macross design. The Archer OTOH actually does a much better job of it.

As for those who think these won't make it into plastic.. Why? We currently have no intro box so they have to do something to replace it and Randall has already mentioned that the classics are what is intended to do so. As I have pried from Speck IWM is only able to (currently) produce 12 classic designs in metal at the moment. So we know there shouldn't be any overlap, or at least not much. We still haven't heard about a lot of the other designs which will include new versions of the Scorpion and Goliath mechs. Both of which I suspect will be in metal since doing a solid plastic cast would be problematic.

I do agree annoyingly and strongly that the role out of the new classics designs is taking far too long for any of us. I just really really hope CGL has a new intro box ready to go by GenCon at the earliest or christmas at the latest but who knows... I'm still annoyed I'm not playing the BattleTech beta right now as well...

[mdauben]

I do agree annoyingly and strongly that the role out of the new classics designs is taking far too long for any of us. I just really really hope CGL has a new intro box ready to go by GenCon at the earliest or christmas at the latest but who knows... I'm still annoyed I'm not playing the BattleTech beta right now as well...

I'm a fairly patient person but I still have to agree.  I think much of the initial "buzz" generated by the first releases of nuSeen artwork has fizzled due to the unexpectedly long delay in actually getting them in production.  I know these things can take time, and sometimes delays are out of their hands, but the long delay without any indication of much if any progress kind of kills my enthusiasm.  :(

[LeoCeballos]

Heheh I just caved in and got a Hammerhands in the meantime. Much nicer design than the Reseen 'hammy in my opinion.