Author Topic: Warships with low armor  (Read 14502 times)

Fireangel

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #60 on: 22 April 2017, 17:54:06 »
Basically the 3057 Warships (the SLDF ones) need to be re-done so they are not just monstrous amounts of cargo with guns and engines attached. The 'lost' ships at the back are fine but the earlier ones they need a complete re-working. 

Some time ago, I wrote an article titled: “Common sense fixes for the SLDF fleet”

Sadly, my hard drive crashed as I was writing it, so all the calculations were lost. All I have left are some basic notes.

In this article, I simply added conventional anti-fighter and AMS/PD weapons, along with fire control tonnage (if needed), paid for with tonnage from the stupid-grade gigantamungus cargo holds.

I am not talking about a redesign; it was simply adding standard guns and AMS/PD (and in some cases, massive fire control tonnage), along with additional quarters for the extra gunners and their officers (and extra supplies, if you calculate that).

These are simple things (that sadly, are not so simple to calculate), that can actually make these warship designs relevant in the post-Helm era.

In a very real sense, I am shocked that this has not been done in canon, or by other fans.

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #61 on: 22 April 2017, 18:47:25 »
The times I fought my warship against fighters, it felt like trying to swat a swarm bees with a stick. Sure I could destroy a whole squadron if the capital weapons connected, but with how few times they connected, it didn't help much. Especially once they started getting EWAS missiles on me.

Do you devote full broadsides to the task, use bracketing fire to improve the odds, missiles to score hits from very long range, AA lasers at all ranges, and ECM to ensure that most of your shots are free because they can't even think about hitting you until standard-medium range?

Shooting fighters is very much a case of Go Big or Go Home.
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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #62 on: 22 April 2017, 19:37:03 »
The times I fought my warship against fighters, it felt like trying to swat a swarm bees with a stick. Sure I could destroy a whole squadron if the capital weapons connected, but with how few times they connected, it didn't help much. Especially once they started getting EWAS missiles on me.
At 14 hexes you are looking at 11 for a NAC. You are not going to hit much. A conventional weapon will need an 8 but do much less damage. At that point it gets complex and depends very much on how many capital weapons you want.

Cryhavok101

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #63 on: 22 April 2017, 20:24:54 »
Do you devote full broadsides to the task, use bracketing fire to improve the odds, missiles to score hits from very long range, AA lasers at all ranges, and ECM to ensure that most of your shots are free because they can't even think about hitting you until standard-medium range?

Shooting fighters is very much a case of Go Big or Go Home.

The only one of those I don't do often is bracketing fire, but that is only because of how few weapons bays can actually use it. I use it when I can. A question though, can a bay of multiple lasers use both AA mode and bracketing fire at the same time? I'm not very clear on that, and if they can, then that is what I am missing.

Daryk

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #64 on: 22 April 2017, 20:48:18 »
No, I'm pretty sure StratOps specifically prohibits using those two modes at the same time in two places.  I'll check the page references when I get a chance unless someone else beats me to it...

EDIT: It was easier to find than I thought: pages 99 and 100 in StratOps.
« Last Edit: 22 April 2017, 20:52:24 by Daryk »

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #65 on: 22 April 2017, 21:25:39 »
Yeah, AA mode and bracketing are an either/or thing. I think the numbers work best for a large bay to bracket down through medium range, then switch to AA at short.

The only one of those I don't do often is bracketing fire, but that is only because of how few weapons bays can actually use it. I use it when I can.

You'll note that the ships most often derided for low armor and lack of conventional guns(you know, the ones belonging to the empire that ruled all of human space with an iron fist) are the ones that often have very bracketable bays. :)
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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #66 on: 22 April 2017, 21:31:54 »
Going back a little bit...

The times I fought my warship against fighters, it felt like trying to swat a swarm bees with a stick.

Really, this means you're doing it right. Given how many fighters WarShips have to deal with in most games, any shot that wouldn't outright kill a fighter is a waste of time. The only exceptions are those times when you can score a crit that degrades an entire squadron.
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Cryhavok101

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #67 on: 22 April 2017, 22:26:10 »
You'll note that the ships most often derided for low armor and lack of conventional guns (you know, the ones belonging to the empire that ruled all of human space with an iron fist) are the ones that often have very bracketable bays. :)

Would you name a few? The ones I have looked at only have bays of 1-2 capital weapons. While you can bracket with only 2, you don get only a small bonus from it. I'm mostly looking at the lighter warships. The Sovestkii Soyoz does have 3-weapon bays, but I can't find many poorly armored ships that have full 4-weapon bays.

I wonder how dangerous some of those star league warships would be if all their capital weapons were in bays of 4, even the smaller ones. If I understand it right the successor states didn't have bracketing tech back then, so it's understandable why their ships were at a disadvantage, and bracketing certainly gives a major advantage in range, enough even to be taking down threats before they can take you down, in some cases. The successor state ships also see to be behind star league ships in terms of armor type, in that many of them from that era are using standard armor, and only build ships with better armor long after the star league did, for the most part.

For the FWL's more modern designs, I kind of wonder if the Eagle and Agamemnon both used standard armor because they already had a ready supply for it (standard armor being ferro-aluminum, the same thing they use on aerospace fighters) and they planned on upgrading it to better armor as supplies became available... putting them in line for better armor well after the Thera, and possibly waiting for surplus to be achieved after Thera production used what it needed of the better armors..

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #68 on: 23 April 2017, 11:00:17 »
I'm not at my TROs right now, but off the top of my head, there's a reason the Lola III was the king of the Star League-era destroyer classes, instead of the Davion II.

For reference, what's your threshold for 'low armor' The Aegis is a true AA monster, but I don't know if that qualifies.
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Cryhavok101

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #69 on: 23 April 2017, 12:33:05 »
I'm not at my TROs right now, but off the top of my head, there's a reason the Lola III was the king of the Star League-era destroyer classes, instead of the Davion II.

For reference, what's your threshold for 'low armor' The Aegis is a true AA monster, but I don't know if that qualifies.

I can see why both the Aegis and Lola III would be good in that role.

Went through my TRO 3057 and 3067s to find examples of what low armor ships for me would be:

Corvettes: Vincent, Zechitinu, and even Inazuma is pushing it in my opinion
Destroyers: Essex or Whirlwind
Frigates: all seem fine to me
Cruisers: all seem at least okay to me
Heavy Cruisers: Agamemnon, Sovetskii Soyuz (also seems under-gunned for the Heavy Cruiser designation, not sure why this isn't designated a transport or cargo vessel)
Battlecruiser: Cameron seems a bit light on the armor for a battlecruiser, but I've never used it, even in previous rule sets
Battleship: Mckenna (and pretty much all the "Lost" battleships) The McKenna is a good ship, but it has less than half the armor tonnage it could have without changing it's speed or SI... I think that is a poor choice for a battleship design... even if it has the firepower to not need to worry about that too hard against most ships.

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #70 on: 23 April 2017, 13:24:40 »

Heavy Cruisers: Agamemnon, Sovetskii Soyuz (also seems under-gunned for the Heavy Cruiser designation, not sure why this isn't designated a transport or cargo vessel)

I still wish that the stats on the Sovetskii Soyuz-class heavy cruisers would be errata'd to include the additional 18 NL-45's (24 total) that the initial data block of the WarShip in TRO 2750 stated it possessed (I personally would be these in additional triple turrets on the aft-quarters and 6 gun batteries on the broadsides)...this would go a long way to making the fluff text make sense (given how the Essex-class destroyer has almost the same armament otherwise on a smaller ship with greater acceleration)...

Of course, when I do my retcons of the ship, I also tend to upgrade the NPPC's from mediums to heavies, and add triple or quad turrets of light naval gauss rifles (which were not a thing when TRO 2750 was first released)...You loose about half the cargo tonnage, but you gain so much throw-weight...but that's just me...

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sadlerbw

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #71 on: 23 April 2017, 16:38:02 »
Couple things:

I have played around with warships, dropships and massed fighters, but it has always been really hard to get other people to play. So, for better or worse, most of the warship battles I've ever played (or space battles in general) have been in megamek either against the bot or playing both sides myself. I freely admit those aren't the best ways to gain experience, but such is life.

I've tried bracketing and some of the advanced capital missive rules, but they just made stuff die even faster, so I don't use them much anymore. I don't know that I've ever played much with AA targeting, ECM, or sensor shadow rules. Partly because no one has ever wanted to play any of the SO stuff in person, which I can understand, and partly because some of that stuff didn't feel real well balanced when I did take a look at it.

For me, warships with less than 50 armor per facing are fragile. Even at long range, that just seems to disappear after one or two turns. However, I don't actually use lots of the optional rules, so that may contribute.

I try to be careful not to suggest how to make it better because I think it is a bit of a mess on multiple levels, and I'm honestly not sure where you would even start. I just like the setting, and megamek makes it accessible and cheap to play with. Besides, in many eras there are few or no warships to even play with!

EDIT: forgot to add, Marauder, I absolutely LOVE the fan PDF with all the new art for the 3057 ships. Those pictures are fantastic and deserve to be the official art for these warships. In fact, they already are in my head!
« Last Edit: 24 April 2017, 11:04:28 by sadlerbw »

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #72 on: 24 April 2017, 12:14:40 »
Some time ago, I wrote an article titled: “Common sense fixes for the SLDF fleet”

Sadly, my hard drive crashed as I was writing it, so all the calculations were lost. All I have left are some basic notes.

In this article, I simply added conventional anti-fighter and AMS/PD weapons, along with fire control tonnage (if needed), paid for with tonnage from the stupid-grade gigantamungus cargo holds.

I am not talking about a redesign; it was simply adding standard guns and AMS/PD (and in some cases, massive fire control tonnage), along with additional quarters for the extra gunners and their officers (and extra supplies, if you calculate that).

These are simple things (that sadly, are not so simple to calculate), that can actually make these warship designs relevant in the post-Helm era.

In a very real sense, I am shocked that this has not been done in canon, or by other fans.

Has there been an issue of WarShips dying to fighter swarms in the Star League or Jihad eras?
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Cryhavok101

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #73 on: 24 April 2017, 13:41:27 »
Has there been an issue of WarShips dying to fighter swarms in the Star League or Jihad eras?

I've managed it a few times, in aerotech 2. I haven't actually tried to kill a warship with nothing but fighters in the current ruleset. I have been hurt badly by fighter swarms though. Typically we call it a loss on the fighters part if all their carriers are dead and we aren't near a planet.

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #74 on: 24 April 2017, 13:50:07 »
Corvettes: Vincent, Zechitinu, and even Inazuma is pushing it in my opinion
Destroyers: Essex or Whirlwind
Frigates: all seem fine to me
Cruisers: all seem at least okay to me
Heavy Cruisers: Agamemnon, Sovetskii Soyuz (also seems under-gunned for the Heavy Cruiser designation, not sure why this isn't designated a transport or cargo vessel)
Battlecruiser: Cameron seems a bit light on the armor for a battlecruiser, but I've never used it, even in previous rule sets
Battleship: Mckenna (and pretty much all the "Lost" battleships) The McKenna is a good ship, but it has less than half the armor tonnage it could have without changing it's speed or SI... I think that is a poor choice for a battleship design... even if it has the firepower to not need to worry about that too hard against most ships.

First off, anything designed after the Succession Wars has to be looked at with the understanding that everybody that knows what they're doing has been dead for three hundred years. Hideously flawed designs are the expectation, not the exception.

Vincent: You should check out the WSotW article down in Fan Articles. It's a corvette, which means its job is to be a wide-ranging early-warning platform that might be called on the intercept or harass light forces approaching your real combatants. Engaging other WarShips is not in the job description, thus there is no need for it to be armored as such. Moreover, it's actually one of the toughest corvettes of the pre-Clan eras, obviously ignoring anorexic destroyers like the Mako. The TRO can say what it wants, that ain't a corvette.

Inazuma: I'm not seeing the issue here, that thing may not be a brick, but it's plenty tough for a corvette, especially one that's designed solely for high-speed engagements.

Zechetinu: Another ship whose job description doesn't really call for fighting other WarShips. On the other hand, I will grant that in the ages of genuinely scary assault droppers, PWSes, and XL-ed heavy fighter wings, the Zech is kinda thin-skinned. Oh well, somebody has to be on the bottom of every totem pole. Best advice I ever saw about the Zechetinu came from its WSotW thread:
An important lesson there for everyone.

Use a unit how it works. Not how you think it should work.

It saves a lot of heartache.

Really, that should be applied to all WarShips.

Whirlwind: Again, not seeing a problem. The Davions saw them as a failure, so flaws are to be expected. They're actually pretty tough by SLDF standards, and one look at the weapons loadout tells me this ship is another built solely for high-speed engagements, not the extended slugging matches that call for a thick hide.

Essex: Yeah, this could be tougher, though it compensates with a fairly high SI.

Agamemnon: Definitely could be tougher. See the recent "Talk to me about..." thread about it down in Fan Articles. Remember again, WarShip design experience was completely lost for three hundred years, leading to the same mistakes people made in real life. The Agamemnon is a WWI British battlecruiser in every way that counts, with all the strengths and weaknesses thereof.

Sovetskii Soyuz: You know the bit about most naval stations being assigned a couple garrison fleet destroyers, and occasionally a cruiser? Pretty sure those cruisers are almost always SovSoys. Built when the SLDF felt the need to massively expand the number of hulls in the fleet, but likely had to do it on the cheap(relatively). SLDF battlecruisers are meant to be third-rate battleships, and in the same way I see the SovSoy as a third-rate cruiser, meant to give you a hull big enough to make the Houses and pirates think twice about shenanigans, but cheap enough to be deployed in places that don't merit a Luxor or Aegis, or even an old Avatar. Quite literally, it is quantity over quality.

Cameron: This class is an explicit failure, with all ships related to transport duties. With that background, I'd say it's actually a surprisingly potent design.

McKenna: It could mount more armor, but does it need to? It's a broadside fighter, so nose and aft about only need to keep you alive long enough to shoot the helmsman and replace him with someone competent. As for the sides, consider this: By and large, the gold standard for a heavy capital bay is the quad HNPPC turret. It can do a LOT of damage with a normal shot, but can also be bracketed down for very good accuracy at extreme ranges. The McKenna is designed with in mind, built to fight at ranges where other ships cannot respond. If they don't have big bracketing bays, they're missing shots too often to kill this ship before its own guns pick them apart. If they do have the ability to bracket like a McKenna, then those quad heavy peeper bays are doing 24 damage. The McKenna's broadside armor belt is too thick for a 24-point hit to threshold. Coincidence? Real-world, certainly. In-universe, I highly doubt it. :)

The Battletech universe makes a lot more sense if you assume that in one way or another, spacecraft armor is by far the most expensive part of the ship, and that shipwrights only ever put just as much as they think the ship needs, and no more.

(Disclaimer: I don't care one whit about C-bills.)
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Cryhavok101

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #75 on: 24 April 2017, 14:06:13 »
The Battletech universe makes a lot more sense if you assume that in one way or another, spacecraft armor is by far the most expensive part of the ship, and that shipwrights only ever put just as much as they think the ship needs, and no more.

(Disclaimer: I don't care one whit about C-bills.)

Well they do make it out of magic and dreams, with a little bit of paper mache, so I can imagine it is difficult to produce.

Reading the rest of your comment, I guess you could say I think those designs are over-specialized and not as well prepared for unexpected circumstances as I would have liked.

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #76 on: 24 April 2017, 15:07:17 »
That I believe wholeheartedly. Niche units thrive in large armies and navies, who can afford to run them alongside complementary units(or generalists) in order to maximise each rule and minimize weaknesses. If you're looking at things from a post-Amaris perspective where the word 'navy' is a cruel joke and the word 'fleet' may as well be an expletive, everything needs to be a generalist.

Try setting up scenarios that showcase these niche roles. For example, try this for a corvette picket scenario:

The attacker is a Vincent corvette(plus whatever it is carrying), that has detected a force moving towards the core of whatever task group the Vincent is a part of. The defender is that force, composed of...whatever you want really, ranging in strength from roughly equal to the Vincent, up to vastly outgunning it. The Vincent wins a major victory if it actually manages to kill the defenders. It wins a victory by staying relatively close to the defender's biggest unit(the distance is up to you, 50-60 hexes sounds good off the top of my head) for...however long you want the scenario to last. If it lasts this long, it has succeeded in either drawing the defenders off course for a fleet intercept, or has gathered and relayed sufficient course and force strength data for the main fleet to vector in an appropriate interception. Any other result is a defender victory, as they have destroyed or evaded the picket quickly enough that their attack on the main fleet will effectively be a surprise.
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sadlerbw

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #77 on: 24 April 2017, 16:59:00 »
I try to cut the corvettes some slack, and assume they aren't really meant to be line units fighting other warships so much as big fish in a pond full of dropships. Actually, I try not to get hung up on classes in general. I mean, if the Volga and Potemkin are transports, then so are the Congress and the Sov Soy, but if the star league feels like calling them cruisers or frigates, I won't get too bent out of shape.

Anyway, my threshold of 50 points or armor seems a bit arbitrary, and I guess it is, but it's based on the fact that the majority of warships bigger than a corvette mount at least one weapon bay that puts out 50+ damage. Aside from a couple goofy units, most everything that is designed to be able to fight another warship has at least one bay with 50+ damage. So, if 50 points is all the armor you have on any given facing, it becomes real easy to start taking crits. Sure you wont blow up from a single hit, but having one shot clean off your armor means every little bit of damage on that facing is going to start rolling for crits: fighters, standard-scale bays, little naval lasers. All that stuff that probably couldn't meet the threshold when you had armor is now going start hitting the power switches on your systems. Plus, if your opponent is smart and fires their 50+ bay first, they get an increased chance for crits on every other bay that fires that turns since that first shot is the only one that needs to get lucky to open up a facing. After that, any amount of damage to that facing gets a crit roll.

I'm not saying 50 armor is a death sentence, but when most warships have one or more bays that can open you up to crits with a single lucky hit, it seems to become a noticeable disadvantage. Rolling and doing end overs can usually help spread damage, but when everyone can core through your freshest armor with a single NAC bay, it is much harder to protect yourself while still being in a position to do some damage back. So, for me 50 armor is something of a magic point on the scale of capital armor.

For that matter, 500 points of standard scale armor is just about my threshold for a PWS that can fight warships as well. Anything less, and you are in serious danger of being erased by a lucky shot. A PWS with less armor is fine against other dropships, but if you actually want to attack a warship with something other than a tele-operated missile from way out of range, you need to be able to survive at least 50 points of cap-scale damage. maybe not on every facing, but at least on the one you plan to present to the enemy while you close. That or start adding optional rules to throw the to-hit numbers into orbit!

Sorry for the novel, I just thought that number deserved a little explanation.

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #78 on: 24 April 2017, 21:17:03 »
Has there been an issue of WarShips dying to fighter swarms in the Star League or Jihad eras?

In my group? Yes.

Not in the SL era, but in the post-helm era. We game primarily in the capital realm.

It is simple: you see that ships in the new era have to work on their own without the massive fleets of the SLDF, so you design ships that can provide their own anti-fighter defense. Why not do the same for the SLDF ships in the FWLM, or C*/WoB? Clearly C* was aware of this issue, or else they would have designed the Dante differently; they operated SLDF era ships without any consideration for built-in AAA or AMS/PD; even the clans had the same issue: canonically, they completely redesigned SLDF ships from the keel up (2750 v. 3057) without making any real difference except HarJel and some minimal changes, not even adding a single AMS in the process, yet new designs do have these weapons.

Without criticizing, it has not happened in canon because of the low-tier status of major naval combat among the developers. I know this and accept it, but what I find shocking is that it has not been done by other fans.


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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #79 on: 25 April 2017, 00:13:23 »
Because the construction rules are pretty loose and clearly not fully exploited in game yet. Any fool can build a competent WarShip. The challenge is to build an appropriate WarShip. It is actually one of my bugbears with TRO3057R. Some of the ships fit poorly. eg Kimagure doesn't feel like a SLDF ship, and I dont mean its thrust.

So it goes beyond "how do I make this ship better? to ""how do I use this ship better?". Once you have a doctrine as to how to use a ship better you ask what can I add to make this doctrine work better. For example, if ever we get a TRO3057U (write to your local congressmen people) I won't be adding point defence to the WarShips, but I would be pushing hard for an AMS variant of one of the Small Craft in the 2600s.

The tech exists to put a Leviathan in 2650. Arguably it is called a New Syrtis. Then you have to explain why everyone else isn't doing it. 


I have attached some AA stuff.
« Last Edit: 25 April 2017, 00:18:17 by Jellico »

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #80 on: 25 April 2017, 00:44:29 »
I have attached some AA stuff.

Thanks for the document. I've seen people reference it before, so it's nice to have it myself.

Fireangel

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #81 on: 25 April 2017, 09:49:51 »
Because the construction rules are pretty loose and clearly not fully exploited in game yet. Any fool can build a competent WarShip. The challenge is to build an appropriate WarShip. It is actually one of my bugbears with TRO3057R. Some of the ships fit poorly. eg Kimagure doesn't feel like a SLDF ship, and I dont mean its thrust.

So it goes beyond "how do I make this ship better? to ""how do I use this ship better?". Once you have a doctrine as to how to use a ship better you ask what can I add to make this doctrine work better. For example, if ever we get a TRO3057U (write to your local congressmen people) I won't be adding point defence to the WarShips, but I would be pushing hard for an AMS variant of one of the Small Craft in the 2600s.

The tech exists to put a Leviathan in 2650. Arguably it is called a New Syrtis. Then you have to explain why everyone else isn't doing it. 

That is specifically not what I am talking about.

I am talking about the SLDF ships operating singly or in very small groups in an environment when the doctrine under which they were designed is impossible to implement.

Comstar (pre-schism) and the Clans both realized this and developed ships to address this issue, but they did not upgrade their SLDF ships to adjust to this new doctrine. Ships designed after the fall of the SLDF have plenty of AA, but SLDF ships were not so adapted, even when the clans apparently took some SLDF ships apart, rebuilt then from the keel up (changing their appearance so completely that nobody would ever imagine that they are the same class), yet in all this remodeling, nobody thought of putting AMS or AA on them?

If they could recognize the need for AA and AMS when designing new ships, why not do it for the older ships?

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #82 on: 25 April 2017, 10:09:47 »
Any fool can build a competent WarShip.

Hey, I'm proof of that statement!
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sadlerbw

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #83 on: 25 April 2017, 12:44:52 »
If they could recognize the need for AA and AMS when designing new ships, why not do it for the older ships?

I don't know if this fits the fluff based on timelines, but the simplest explanation is the rise of trial-based combat. Given how massively deadly warship fights can be to any smaller units that get involved, it would be unusually wasteful of the clans to include them in combat trials where large numbers of pilots and fighters could be blown to useless bits by a massively larger opponent. I would imagine that, in clan combat, warships were meant to duel each other. This fits with the mentalities of both the one-on-one style of combat the Clans prefer, and also with their desire to minimize the resources committed to a battle. I could easily see clan captains bidding away their fighters and dropships to make it a one-on-one contest between two warships.


Jellico

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #84 on: 25 April 2017, 16:22:13 »
Okay then.

Firstly SLDF ships are not lacking in AA (though they are weak at the destroyer level.)

TRO3057 saw a massive ignoring of capital missiles, the forgetting of small craft, and an actual set of construction rules which immediately saw a jump in armour.
Despite this AA went backwards. A Liberator is literally  half the gunboat of an Avatar. A Conqueror is better than a Kimagure, but it would want to be with half the engine.  Besides a Kimi is built like a 3057 House ship.
Likewise for the York/Riga II which are functionally identical. Heck. All SLDF derived destroyers are functionally equal. The Fredasa is better than the Vincent I guess. The Leviathan family is in a world of its own. It is worth noting that the transport is directly comparable to the Thera while the battleships have more than double the AA capacity. Shows the value of the capital weapons as AA right there.

The dirty secret is that armour is the best way of improving survivability in the face of fighters. The 10 most survivable platforms are battleships excepting the Mjolnir, Avalon, Thera, and Quixote which are noted bricks other than the missile boat.

So what does that have to do with anything? Frankly none of the canon ships can operate independently outside of noncombat patrols. They are all dependent on whatever escorts they can bring along whether themselves or on JumpShips. If the Houses think that they can do it they are dreaming.
In the end it comes back to figuring out how to use these ships and getting the escorts to do it.

Maingunnery

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #85 on: 25 April 2017, 16:44:15 »
but I would be pushing hard for an AMS variant of one of the Small Craft in the 2600s.
Don't forget a standard PD Small Craft for the 2300's. And a primitive version!!
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Jellico

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #86 on: 25 April 2017, 17:26:29 »
Don't forget a standard PD Small Craft for the 2300's. And a primitive version!!
AMS doesn't exist. Absorbing a single missile salvo is pretty pointless.

Maingunnery

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Re: Warships with low armor
« Reply #87 on: 25 April 2017, 17:57:17 »
AMS doesn't exist. Absorbing a single missile salvo is pretty pointless.
Just get enough Small craft, those were the fleet days after all.
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