Author Topic: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid  (Read 1618 times)

Demon55

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How much effort or risk would a unit expend to recover the dead or wounded during a raid?

The dead may take little priority depending on how much risk it took to recover their bodies especially under fire.  The wounded I could see a lot of risk being taken for especially for a unit raiding Draconis Combine, Cap Con, Ghost Bears, Smoke Jaguar territory.  Or just possibly shelling the wounded to prevent their capture?

Karimancer

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #1 on: 19 March 2017, 14:20:47 »
Depends on the faction and the personnel in question. Nobody's going to expend much effort to recover a few wounded PBI. But a small, tight-knit merc unit might brave a hell of a lot to bring back one of their own.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #2 on: 19 March 2017, 17:15:28 »
In addition to agreeing with what was just said above, I'd also add that era introduces a variable as well.

Mechwarriors are your most valuable personnel, but during periods where chivalric warfare is the norm you might just wait for your enemy to offer ransom for your lost personnel rather than risk more lives and materiel to recover them by force.

ajcbm

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #3 on: 19 March 2017, 18:11:42 »
Hover APCs could be dedicated for recovery. Put ambulance markings on it and it should be fine.

Nav_Alpha

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #4 on: 19 March 2017, 18:59:39 »
"Everybody comes home".

I'd say the FedSuns, Lyrans and Leaguers expending a lot of effort. Cappies and Dracs maybe Less so - although I imagine both would want to arrange popular funeral rites for their fallen.

What kind of loyalty do you inspire if you're not willing to make pick up on wounded comrades? Not much.


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Cazaril

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #5 on: 19 March 2017, 20:39:11 »
The situation will factor into it too...

Take Grayson Carlyle's decision in Mercenary's Star... The pilot <can't remember her name> can't be recovered because to do so would have jeopardized the entire unit. But when Lori Kalmar is captured, and because of everything she knows, Grayson conducts a risky raid on the University complex to get her out.

One recovery would risk the unit, the other was done to save it.

Caz

Archangel

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #6 on: 19 March 2017, 21:24:16 »
Hover APCs could be dedicated for recovery. Put ambulance markings on it and it should be fine.

Unless the enemy decides to take them prisoner.or simply kill/execute them.
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Demon55

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #7 on: 19 March 2017, 22:53:07 »
"Everybody comes home".

I'd say the FedSuns, Lyrans and Leaguers expending a lot of effort. Cappies and Dracs maybe Less so - although I imagine both would want to arrange popular funeral rites for their fallen.

What kind of loyalty do you inspire if you're not willing to make pick up on wounded comrades? Not much.

That is exactly what I was thinking.  I have a lot of people who are/were close to me who were US military personnel and it was "We are all in or we are all dead." 

I doubt many infantrymen would be willing to join up with a unit that would leave them to die or possibly be wounded and abandoned.  It does not help moral.  Why follow a mechwarrior(s) who will leave you if things turn south?  You would not or risk death, severe injury, a long prison term with harsh interrogations, you would not. 

If the enemy is honorable and willing to ransom them back that is another story. 

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #8 on: 19 March 2017, 23:16:56 »
The armies of the inner sphere aren't necessarily the professional, all volunteer forces of the modern day.  The mechwarriors probably almost always are, but this is a universe where lords petty and great can dragoon people living in their fief into levies.

"They fight for me because if they do not, I throw their wives and children off my lands..."

Depending on the nature of the troops or the commander leading them, there certainly might be very little concern about the fates of the lost.

Archangel

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #9 on: 20 March 2017, 06:36:31 »
While mercenaries have a choice on who their commanding officer is, House troops don't have that choice.  The DCMS has the worst track record of looking after their fellow warriors with their MechWarriors' traditional disdain for non-MechWarriors and their willingness to sacrifice them in order to protect their MechWarriors (see 9th PEsht Regulars' Tai-sa Mark Graham) and certain elite units, primarily referring to the Sword of Light, even disdain MechWarriors of lesser units.
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Demon55

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #10 on: 20 March 2017, 10:48:18 »
The armies of the inner sphere aren't necessarily the professional, all volunteer forces of the modern day.  The mechwarriors probably almost always are, but this is a universe where lords petty and great can dragoon people living in their fief into levies.

"They fight for me because if they do not, I throw their wives and children off my lands..."

Depending on the nature of the troops or the commander leading them, there certainly might be very little concern about the fates of the lost.

Which does fit with the semi-feudal nature of the earlier battletech. 

While mercenaries have a choice on who their commanding officer is, House troops don't have that choice.  The DCMS has the worst track record of looking after their fellow warriors with their MechWarriors' traditional disdain for non-MechWarriors and their willingness to sacrifice them in order to protect their MechWarriors (see 9th PEsht Regulars' Tai-sa Mark Graham) and certain elite units, primarily referring to the Sword of Light, even disdain MechWarriors of lesser units.

Yes and I take it that those units attached to say the SoL would do what they could to minimize their having to be used as cannon fodder.

Karimancer

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #11 on: 20 March 2017, 10:53:22 »
The only faction I can think of that really seems to give much of a crap about their PBI are the Taurians. Well, they're the only ones that treat them with much respect anyway. Most everyone else seems to treat like numbers on a spreadsheet. Especially the Dragon.

Dayton3

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #12 on: 20 March 2017, 11:08:38 »
The situation will factor into it too...

Take Grayson Carlyle's decision in Mercenary's Star... The pilot <can't remember her name> can't be recovered because to do so would have jeopardized the entire unit. But when Lori Kalmar is captured, and because of everything she knows, Grayson conducts a risky raid on the University complex to get her out.

One recovery would risk the unit, the other was done to save it.

Caz

I remember that book.   The pilot Carlyle wouldn't stop to try to recover was a man (his female companion was his wingman) and was in a disabled fighter that was going to burn up in the atmosphere.

It should be noted that the two fighter pilots were very recent additions to the Gray Death Legion who had already been very reluctant to undertake the mission (dropship escort) that Carlyle assigned them.

On the other hand,  Lori Kalmar was with the Gray Death Legion from the very beginning and was of proven ability and loyalty.

Cazaril

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #13 on: 20 March 2017, 13:47:58 »
I remember that book.   The pilot Carlyle wouldn't stop to try to recover was a man (his female companion was his wingman) and was in a disabled fighter that was going to burn up in the atmosphere.

It should be noted that the two fighter pilots were very recent additions to the Gray Death Legion who had already been very reluctant to undertake the mission (dropship escort) that Carlyle assigned them.

On the other hand,  Lori Kalmar was with the Gray Death Legion from the very beginning and was of proven ability and loyalty.

Touche... It was the male pilot not the female. The female one went catatonic and just drifted until she was picked up by the Kurita dropship.

I do disagree that it was a matter of longevity with the GDL that made the difference though. The Kurita dropship was closing on the aerospace pilot's position, and the Phobos (I think it was the Phobos), was already pretty beaten up and couldn't handle much more punishment. It was either try to save the pilots and we all die, or sacrifice the pilots and give the rest of the unit a chance. If I remember correctly, Grayson agonized over the decision (granted, not for long since he had very little time to make it).

Lori on the other hand, knew the composition of the unit and rebel forces. Knew the where abouts of the Phobos (which became an integral repair facility after the rebel base had been raided). Knew their tactics and plans. Making her a wealth of information Grayson could not afford to have mined. Throw in his person feelings for her, and the raid was a given (which was all rather hypocritical of him, because while other people had important information, he never made any plans to get them out. The one rebel's girlfriend doesn't count, because he impromptuly changed plans to try a rescue. But then again, they did plan a rescue of her later).

Caz

Karimancer

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #14 on: 20 March 2017, 13:53:23 »
Also, Grayson had to rescue Lori. Otherwise, who would the romance plotlines have been involved? Grayson and McCall? Actually, that would have made for some interesting reading.

Cazaril

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #15 on: 20 March 2017, 15:56:29 »
Also, Grayson had to rescue Lori. Otherwise, who would the romance plotlines have been involved?

If you remember the story, they had a sub-plot with Grayson and Janice Taylor (Academic who became a member of Ramage's special operations group). There was even a point where Lori sees them walking in the moonlight and kissing. Of course it is all part of the "I realize now that I love him" story line, but still... Janice Taylor could have easily become Lori's replacement.

Admittedly, I had to look her name up in the book. I also happened to stumble on the part where Grayson justifies the raid to the one rebel leader by saying that they can't let the Kuritian troops know about the Phobos, and either they would have to rescue Lori or kill her. 

Caz

Karimancer

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #16 on: 20 March 2017, 16:10:08 »
It was a joke, dude.

Dayton3

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #17 on: 20 March 2017, 17:46:46 »
IIRC,  there were other subplots involving Lori Kalmar,   Grayson Carlye, and the early members of his unit.

For example on one hand even as her feelings for Grayson were developing she was still sleeping with a fellow mechwarrior from the unit she was a member of when Grayson captured her.

And her feelings toward Grayson were at war with her pathological fear of fire and Grayson capturing her by threatening her with an Inferno round.

Cazaril

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #18 on: 20 March 2017, 20:19:39 »
It was a joke, dude.

I kind of figured that out when you suggested Grayson and McCall together... But Taylor would have made a decent enough replacement for Kalmar, and a way to heap more pain, suffering and need for revenge on Carlyle. Oh well, missed opportunities...

IIRC,  there were other subplots involving Lori Kalmar,   Grayson Carlye, and the early members of his unit.

For example on one hand even as her feelings for Grayson were developing she was still sleeping with a fellow mechwarrior from the unit she was a member of when Grayson captured her.

Your thinking of the guy from Sigurd that was another captured pilot... She wasn't so much seeing him, as he was the last person from her homeworld and she needed company. The last time they were together was provoked by Grayson going to see his Trellwian girlfriend. She needed someone to talk to and felt very much alone. Before they even got out of bed, Duke Ricol landed, things went to pot and they all ended up trucking out to ThunderRift... Where he was killed.

By the second book, she was already being considered "The Captain's woman", which irritated her a bit as she hadn't worked out her feelings yet. And then add to that Grayson's liaison with Janice and she found the title almost ironic.

And her feelings toward Grayson were at war with her pathological fear of fire and Grayson capturing her by threatening her with an Inferno round.

The inferno round was part of it, but not all... She also suffered from a feeling of betrayal because when her Locust took an inferno round at Thunder Rift, she called his name and he didn't come in time to help. It is completely irrational, considering he was kilometers away, and she knew it (And let's set aside the fact that he actually did stop his dual on the tarmac to high tail it to the Rift to help her, something it doesn't appear he ever told her). But knowing something is irrational doesn't necessarily change how it affects us, and it haunted her until the author decided it didn't.

Caz

Kidd

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #19 on: 20 March 2017, 20:58:05 »
Depends on what kind of raid doesn't it? A regiment-sized incursion by a Successor State is likely to have all sorts of aerospace and infantry support backing it. A 12-Mech Damocles Commando-type is more likely to achieve its objectives writing off anyone left behind.

A 4-man pirate smash and grab that loses a man? "THREE WAY SPLIT!"  >:D

Demon55

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #20 on: 21 March 2017, 16:40:02 »
Depends on what kind of raid doesn't it? A regiment-sized incursion by a Successor State is likely to have all sorts of aerospace and infantry support backing it. A 12-Mech Damocles Commando-type is more likely to achieve its objectives writing off anyone left behind.

A 4-man pirate smash and grab that loses a man? "THREE WAY SPLIT!"  >:D

Using the Damocles example: their dropship was trying to get them off and their jumpship was holding in system.  But in Pirates Moon, the ELH/FC(?) seemed to have dumped them on Veil with little in the way of support.  I do not see the ELH as ones to abandon their people and I do wonder at the Federated Suns loyalty as the ELH was part of the reconstituted Star League. 

In Pirates Moon, the three other mechwarriors in Sinclair's lance were traitors, having defected to the New Belt Pirates for some reason as was revealed in the Bonus Mission.

Also leaving people behind can give the enemy a source of intelligence.  So it could be a wise idea to go after them or shell their last known position to prevent their capture.
« Last Edit: 21 March 2017, 16:43:29 by Demon55 »

Dayton3

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #21 on: 21 March 2017, 17:31:58 »
To me,  making a major effort to recover wounded and prisoners because of the information they might have makes a lot more sense during a campaign than it does a raid.    Obviously a person of sufficient rank is going to know lots of details about campaign logistics and planning.   

But a raid is "just a raid".   In the Battletech universe a unit involved in a raid might not return to the target world in question for years (if ever) so the likelihood of a captured officer having information that would be that vital is remote.

idea weenie

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #22 on: 21 March 2017, 21:44:02 »
But a raid is "just a raid".   In the Battletech universe a unit involved in a raid might not return to the target world in question for years (if ever) so the likelihood of a captured officer having information that would be that vital is remote.

The captured person might still have useful information.  Rumors they heard about who hired the unit, the unit's forces and capability, the name of the Jumpship and Dropship they used, aso.

If they are low ranking and know nothing, just toss them in jail for vandalism, littering, jaywalking, etc, and take them out for community service daily.  They broke stuff on the planet, they can fix stuff on the planet.  Once their sentence is over, they can either live on the planet permanently, or the raiding unit can pay for them to return.

Archangel

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #23 on: 22 March 2017, 05:31:34 »
But a raid is "just a raid".   In the Battletech universe a unit involved in a raid might not return to the target world in question for years (if ever) so the likelihood of a captured officer having information that would be that vital is remote.

Or they might be a prelude to another attack perhaps even a full-blown invasion (Operation Bird Dog, Word of Blake invasion of Hesperus II, etc).
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Hayden.

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #24 on: 01 April 2017, 03:34:44 »
I always liked the idea of borrowing something like the Pave Low/Pave Hawk concept.  At-the-ready VTOL recovery flight (in this case for MechWarriors, rather than aircraft pilots).  That said, I realize there's a limit to how practical this kind of recovery would be, given how vulnerable VTOLs are, and the kind of security they would need while extracting ejected MechWarriors.  I can just imagine using Karnovs for this.
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Dayton3

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #25 on: 01 April 2017, 20:27:07 »
I wonder if anyone has ever considered a specialized mech strictly for personnel recovery?   

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #26 on: 01 April 2017, 21:20:49 »
Probably not enough of a need for one for anyone to make one.

Colt Ward

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #27 on: 02 April 2017, 23:31:18 »
I always liked the idea of borrowing something like the Pave Low/Pave Hawk concept.  At-the-ready VTOL recovery flight (in this case for MechWarriors, rather than aircraft pilots).  That said, I realize there's a limit to how practical this kind of recovery would be, given how vulnerable VTOLs are, and the kind of security they would need while extracting ejected MechWarriors.  I can just imagine using Karnovs for this.

Actually you do not use a Karnov (if you have a choice)- too big a footprint, too slow and a waste of that asset.  It should be dropping off BA squads or INF platoons.

What you use is a Ferret Scout VTOL, 15/23 with 1t cargo and a MG for keeping crunchies heads down.  It zips in, makes pick up using NAP, and gets out with the skill sets that lost their rides- be it VTOL crew, ASF pilot, conventional pilot or mechwarrior.

Now . . . you mention vulnerability.  It no longer really exists in TW ruleset, at least not against ground fire.  They still suffer against aerial threats but you can avoid some of that by how you fly . . . at least fluff reason.  Of course if you are not landing or keeping the dropship in atmo, you need to use a Small Craft with VSTOL.
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Tegyrius

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #28 on: 03 April 2017, 07:30:41 »
Ferret ~= MH-6.

Karnov ~= MH-53 (I know it's a tiltrotor but it "feels" too big and ungainly to be an Osprey analog).

I think Hayden is on the money with an MH-60 analog for this mission. You need something with enough space in back for a couple of medics to work on the guy who ejected with five pilot hits.

Having said that, when I've played around with this concept in my MekHQ campaigns, the mix I keep using in the 3SW/4SW era is Ferrets and Karnovs, 'cause that's what's readily available, with a jump infantry platoon full of medics (PJs) and some Warrior-Cs for escorts.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Recovery of the injured/wounded personnel during a raid
« Reply #29 on: 03 April 2017, 13:55:42 »
You also have the VTOLs from Support Vehs which can work.  But the 1t from the Ferret can fit a squad (if using those rules) so you have 2 or 3 rescue medics and room for 2 or 3 rescued to fit with room to spare.

I was suggesting one of the more common VTOLs that could be found around the Inner Sphere without being era specific or in limited production.  Jihad and later if there was a FCE Ferret it would offer even more cargo space.
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