Author Topic: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe  (Read 3505 times)

Charistoph

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Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« on: 02 April 2017, 15:53:08 »
Background:
A staple of some science fiction series as well as certain defense initiatives, the concept of using a explosive blast (typically nuclear) to power an expendable laser core has been with us for a few decades.  This is most prominent in David Weber's Honor Harrington (or Honorverse) series of books.  The reason for the development of such weapons was because point-defense had progressed to the point that it was very difficult for contact (or near-contact) warheads to make a successful hit against a ship with almost any level of readiness.

The concept is that a missile is used to carry the explosive and laser core(s) to a stand-off position before detonating and using the laser to deliver its damage before the missile can be destroyed (hopefully).  The laser itself is usually not as powerful as the explosive itself due to the conversion of energy and certain amount of dissipation of the explosive that is not captured by the laser core(s).

Premise:
With the advent of tactical nukes being used at some point and Point Defense (PD) being included on Warships to handle ASF as well as missile payloads, someone looking for a way to improve the chance of missiles scoring hits discovered the concept from old Terran archives and proceeded to work out the feasibility of the process and deploy it to the field.  The initial test platform was a Killer Whale missile body to maximize the potential of the concept.

Base Restrictions:
This should be left to Capital Missile Systems, at the least.  We can leave the concept for Sub-Capital Missiles for later development if the Capital system leaves any room for inclusion.

We should consider any initial deployments that only one beam of a Missile body (even if it includes more) will be able to strike the target vessel, so no using a Cluster table (at least for any Mk 1 deployments).

Rule Questions:
So, going from there, how should we develop this concept?  I have some thoughts but I want to hear your all ideas on the feasibility, schedule of deployment, and their interactions with the current rules.  I am not stuck on anything, but more throwing things out there to make it a practical and usable Experimental consideration for the game.

Initial Deployment:
On one hand, I can see the point of having it be available to all missile platforms from Barracuda to Killer Whale, on the other hand I can also see that, much like the initial Streaks, Ultra Cannons, etc, it be limited to being a Killer Whale ammo variant, or its own unique missile type that can be fired from an AR-10 launcher.  As it proves successful it is then disseminated in to smaller missile bodies.

Thoughts?

Damage:
This can be a challenge.  We can treat it as the same, but it really shouldn't be the same as if the full explosion hit the target.  Off hand, I am thinking that as a balance point that the Damage of the Weapon be 1 Attack Value less than the standard missile.  I will get to how this is affected by PD in the next section.

On the other hand, as a possibility to not being completely weak, we can see it as improving the Critical Chance of the Weapon by 1.  In practical terms, the Killer Whales would have a Critical Chance of 7+ instead of 8+.

Thoughts?

Point Defense Interaction:
Since PD against Capital Missiles is based on the Capital Missile's Attack Value, reducing it doesn't seem to be smart, especially if this is supposed to be a counter to PD effectiveness.  Leaving it's effectiveness to be equal as the body it is using also is equally as pointless.  So, which would be worth having the AV of the Missile as x2, +3, or +2?  Keep in mind for future-proofing that it will be reduced to a Barracuda body at some point (and possibly sub-capital at some point).

Thoughts?

Accuracy:
Now, aiming a missile on a kamikaze run is hard enough, reliably aiming a laser that would be, effectively, surfing on an explosion's edge would be a challenge.  As a further balance option, the initial version should have provide a To-Hit modifier of +1 or +2.

Thoughts?

Cost:
Being an Experimental Ammo/Weapon, obviously we should be looking to have an increased cost to provide the Weapon.  But what about the BV?  How would the changes we finalize affect the BV?  Are the final changes sufficiently balanced to use the base BV of the missiles, or should they receive a percentage increase to represent their increased ability to get past enemy defenses?  Off hand, I think an increase by 15-30% should be looked at to keep the point of BV in mind.

Thoughts?
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Daryk

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #1 on: 02 April 2017, 16:59:01 »
As far as development and deployment, I think the universe is still a ways off from needing them.  Point defenses just aren't that widespread yet.  Once a majority of ships can defeat a healthy spread of nuclear missiles (Sillybrit has a thread in this vein somewhere around here), then this idea will get funded in universe.

Charistoph

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #2 on: 02 April 2017, 17:10:48 »
As far as development and deployment, I think the universe is still a ways off from needing them.  Point defenses just aren't that widespread yet.  Once a majority of ships can defeat a healthy spread of nuclear missiles (Sillybrit has a thread in this vein somewhere around here), then this idea will get funded in universe.

Right, but we are looking at it from after those concerns are in place.  I'm more looking at the actual the level of initial implementation and the rules that would both represent and balance the system for the board.
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Daryk

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #3 on: 02 April 2017, 19:50:29 »
Damage-wise, I'd start with 1/6th the damage of the next smaller size warhead.  That should account for the mass of the focusing mechanism and efficiency losses.

One way to deal with the to-hit issue is to make it two rolls: one to get the missile where it needs to be, and the other to actually point in the right direction.  I don't think either one needs a penalty.  Making two rolls will sufficiently lower the odds to match the difficulty of pulling off this trick.

As far as point defense interaction, there shouldn't be any, as the whole point of this is avoid point defenses.  If for some reason the missile crosses another ship's point defense bubble, the interaction should be as normal.  If the missile isn't reduced to 0 damage (i.e., destroyed) you could apply a penalty to the second to hit roll above to represent the damage.

For cost, the thing should be hideously expensive as a prototype, and some multiple of a nuclear missile once put into full rate production.  I don't use BV, so don't have anything to offer on that score, sorry.

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #4 on: 02 April 2017, 20:45:23 »
The whole point of a bomb-pumped laser would be that it would fire from outside PD range of the target. Being (in theory) a collimated beam of X-rays, the trick is aiming it correctly, and (marginally importantly) realising it's a two-way beam.

(Side excursion into X-laser theory. Lasers rely on reflecting energy in a medium, building up excited atoms until they all 'dump' in synch. A small hole in one of the end mirrors lets the beam escape. Now what reflects X-rays? The proposed solution involved using a nuc to 'pump' long carbon rods, relying on interactions within the long rod act as inefficient mirrors, but with the power of the atom behind it. End result was in theory beams of X-rays emerging along the carbon rod's axis. In theory, one nuc could easily 'pump' multiple rods, which could potentially be aimed in all directions. Argus, Hedgehog, Sea Urchin, take your pick.

Of course, it never worked in our reality, but in the Future of the 1980s ... )

Depending on materials involved, the X-rays would either dump some of their energy on the target's skin, causing thermal effects (local vaporisation) which would throw incoming warheads off course. Penetrating X-rays would scramble electronics, cook internal components, & generally do Bad ThingsTM.

When applied to BT, I'd be tempted to play them as
- not interceptable by the target's PD. Of course, they could be intercepted by screen launchers, etc operating at a distance.
- Not having great to-hit chances - BT's computing & sensor power are far more limited than RL's, so aiming at a distance at a maneuvering target won't be simple
- Doing minimal armour damage - after all, X-rays aren't easily blocked
- I would give them a chance for a critical.

After all, if the beam passes through a cargo hold, not much will happen. If it strikes the bridge, the crew now glow in the dark while they twitch out their remaining minutes. Hitting an engine might cause components to fail & overload, while hitting a fuel tank might cause pressure excursions.

Which admittedly pleases the game designer in me - provides a unique weapon with its own foibles & strengths.

Cheers,

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
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Charistoph

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #5 on: 03 April 2017, 12:07:57 »
Damage-wise, I'd start with 1/6th the damage of the next smaller size warhead.  That should account for the mass of the focusing mechanism and efficiency losses.

But hard to scale.  The best missile is an Attack Value of 4, which means that a Killer Whale explosive/laser core (or laser-head as the Honorverse calls it) would be 0.5.  Congratulations, you have a 100 ton missile that hits as hard as a medium laser.  This would be a lousy return on investment without something else to encourage taking it.  With such a return, it would likely have never made it to deployment past an attack against the research facility.

Now, if the weapon fired a cluster of such lasers that could hit the target, each with a Medium Laser power, then it would be a possibility.  It would effectively turn the missile into a form of LRM.  This was what I was referring to as a Cluster in the initial post.  I was considering this as a future development when an effective laser-head for the Barracuda, so that the Killer Whale would use like 3-4 Barracuda cores to do the job.

One way to deal with the to-hit issue is to make it two rolls: one to get the missile where it needs to be, and the other to actually point in the right direction.  I don't think either one needs a penalty.  Making two rolls will sufficiently lower the odds to match the difficulty of pulling off this trick.

That could work, but add even more work to it.  In a way, we may as well use the 2 Cluster Table and require an end result of 2 in order to work.  And yeah, that would lower the possibilities of a hit, but would such a lousy chance of connection make it worth while to field for any level of production?

As far as point defense interaction, there shouldn't be any, as the whole point of this is avoid point defenses.  If for some reason the missile crosses another ship's point defense bubble, the interaction should be as normal.  If the missile isn't reduced to 0 damage (i.e., destroyed) you could apply a penalty to the second to hit roll above to represent the damage.

Part of it is a question of balance. 

Fluff-wise, the lenses are have to be high enough in quality to do damage, but low quality enough to justify in a one-shot payload.  That means the lens would be large, but the focus would make it less-effective over a rather short range.  It would still be outside of full contact range, but close enough to be affected by AMS if it caught it in time.  So the engagement envelope against it is possible, but much shorter than normal contact heads.

The whole point of a bomb-pumped laser would be that it would fire from outside PD range of the target. Being (in theory) a collimated beam of X-rays, the trick is aiming it correctly, and (marginally importantly) realising it's a two-way beam.

(Side excursion into X-laser theory. Lasers rely on reflecting energy in a medium, building up excited atoms until they all 'dump' in synch. A small hole in one of the end mirrors lets the beam escape. Now what reflects X-rays? The proposed solution involved using a nuc to 'pump' long carbon rods, relying on interactions within the long rod act as inefficient mirrors, but with the power of the atom behind it. End result was in theory beams of X-rays emerging along the carbon rod's axis. In theory, one nuc could easily 'pump' multiple rods, which could potentially be aimed in all directions. Argus, Hedgehog, Sea Urchin, take your pick.

Of course, it never worked in our reality, but in the Future of the 1980s ... )

Depending on materials involved, the X-rays would either dump some of their energy on the target's skin, causing thermal effects (local vaporisation) which would throw incoming warheads off course. Penetrating X-rays would scramble electronics, cook internal components, & generally do Bad ThingsTM.

True, but it doesn't have to be an x-ray laser.  Yes, both the Honorverse and Project Excalibur were both targeting that result with their concepts, but that doesn't necessarily mean that would be the method that a 32nd Century scientist who had access to non-x-ray combat-ready lasers would use, either.

Of course, it doesn't necessarily have to be a bomb-pumped laser, just a missile-delivered one-shot laser (or laser), and that definitely reaches a point where target PD would be pointless, unless, as stated above, the laser was set up more for power or penetration than for range.

When applied to BT, I'd be tempted to play them as
- not interceptable by the target's PD. Of course, they could be intercepted by screen launchers, etc operating at a distance.
- Not having great to-hit chances - BT's computing & sensor power are far more limited than RL's, so aiming at a distance at a maneuvering target won't be simple
- Doing minimal armour damage - after all, X-rays aren't easily blocked
- I would give them a chance for a critical.

After all, if the beam passes through a cargo hold, not much will happen. If it strikes the bridge, the crew now glow in the dark while they twitch out their remaining minutes. Hitting an engine might cause components to fail & overload, while hitting a fuel tank might cause pressure excursions.

Which admittedly pleases the game designer in me - provides a unique weapon with its own foibles & strengths.

It would make it interesting to have a missile designed to decrew a vessel to prepare it for boarding.  But wouldn't a neutron weapon (something that was available, and more known to do that, in the 1980s) be more appropriate?

Of course, they tended to be indiscriminate, so a deliberately setup x-ray laser, either as a mount or delivered by fighter or missile would be interesting.  But also, aren't x-rays blocked by the same heavy metals one would design in to a spaceship to block general cosmic radiation?
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Maingunnery

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #6 on: 03 April 2017, 12:18:19 »

Aren't Naval Laser already of the Graser type?

So I would let its beams interact with armor, then it is consistent.
I would suggest to expand upon the idea of having beams going in every direction, with the defender size and distance determining the chance of a hit.
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Charistoph

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #7 on: 03 April 2017, 14:35:14 »
Aren't Naval Laser already of the Graser type?

Light vs gamma ray?

So I would let its beams interact with armor, then it is consistent.
I would suggest to expand upon the idea of having beams going in every direction, with the defender size and distance determining the chance of a hit.

Yeah, having the base concept do Armor damage would be consistent with lasers as they are in the Btech universe.

A "hedgehog" style of warhead may be worth looking in to, but I figured that would be a Mk 2 or Mk 3 development for an actual missile.  As a mine, that would be expected.  That would definitely lead in to using the Cluster table based on the class/size of the ship, in either case.

One of the difficulties with converting an Honorverse Weapon to Battletech is that the Honorverse has strong tech in controlling gravity, and had so before the Clan Invasion (in relative time scope).  This control allows them to shape a fusion warhead's explosion in to laser cores as well as control the dispersion pattern of the cores themselves.
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Korzon77

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #8 on: 03 April 2017, 14:43:44 »
You might want to try for an intermediate design-- the Casbah Howitzer.

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #9 on: 03 April 2017, 17:34:22 »
Aren't Naval Laser already of the Graser type?

Mech scale large lasers are described as gamma ray lasers, so I would assume so.
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worktroll

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #10 on: 03 April 2017, 17:58:47 »
Mech scale large lasers are described as gamma ray lasers, so I would assume so.

Huh? Not by my reckoning. They're definitely in the visible spectrum - red & blue, with added green! (is that 3/4 of the battle then?)

I've heard idle speculation that Naval Gauss cannons are so ridiculously efficient that they might have to use small fission devices as propellant, but that's more an artifact of mapping real-world physics onto game stats pulled out of ... thin air, than a serious proposition. Half-ton graser devices are pretty much super-tech for BT's tech base.

And ... the Nuclear Lance! Always fun to find out by accident something that was infra-dig decades ago is now in the light of day, and one just didn't notice. "Casaba howitzer" indeed ;)



Some general thread observations:

1) The only reason to bomb-pump lasers is to get X-rays. Anything else will be more efficient with conventional arrangements.

2) The Nuclear Lance sounds like a really good option to up-tech BT. They fire from outside PD range, and do comparable damage to direct nuc hits.

3) If you are sticking with X-ray lasers, they won't kill all the crew. Think of them like the Primary Beams most famously from E. E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series, or from the Starfire novels/game - bypassing (ignoring) armour, but doing critical damage to "an" internal system. Like poking a superheated knitting needle through an Iowa-class wet battleship - you might puncture the mess, you might puncture a magazine. Yes, localised crew damage, but unless it's something like the CIC, it may not matter much.

4) BT lacks gravtech, but it's laser tech is purely magical. Remember, if you can produce laser-pumped fusion hand grenades, hilarity will ensue ;)

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Daryk

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #11 on: 03 April 2017, 18:00:05 »
Sorry, I should have been more clear: use 1/6th of the next smaller size nuclear warhead damage.  I'm pretty sure that does more than 4 points of damage...

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #12 on: 03 April 2017, 18:20:47 »
Huh? Not by my reckoning. They're definitely in the visible spectrum - red & blue, with added green! (is that 3/4 of the battle then?)

I've heard idle speculation that Naval Gauss cannons are so ridiculously efficient that they might have to use small fission devices as propellant, but that's more an artifact of mapping real-world physics onto game stats pulled out of ... thin air, than a serious proposition. Half-ton graser devices are pretty much super-tech for BT's tech base.
NACs use fusion blasts to propel their shells.



Quote
Some general thread observations:

1) The only reason to bomb-pump lasers is to get X-rays. Anything else will be more efficient with conventional arrangements.

2) The Nuclear Lance sounds like a really good option to up-tech BT. They fire from outside PD range, and do comparable damage to direct nuc hits.

3) If you are sticking with X-ray lasers, they won't kill all the crew. Think of them like the Primary Beams most famously from E. E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series, or from the Starfire novels/game - bypassing (ignoring) armour, but doing critical damage to "an" internal system. Like poking a superheated knitting needle through an Iowa-class wet battleship - you might puncture the mess, you might puncture a magazine. Yes, localised crew damage, but unless it's something like the CIC, it may not matter much.
If you take rod diameter and conversion in-efficiencies into regard, I would be surprised if a single hit exceeds a normal NL-35 hit, and it wouldn't bypass armor.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #13 on: 03 April 2017, 18:21:35 »
Huh? Not by my reckoning. They're definitely in the visible spectrum - red & blue, with added green! (is that 3/4 of the battle then?)

Era Report 2750 describes the small and medium lasers as free electron lasers, while the Large Laser is called a "Gamma Ray Burst Laser"

"...by first producing high-energy plasma from the unit’s fusion engine, then channeling the plasma into a pre-firing chamber where the plasma was then focused to produce a powerful gamma-ray burst laser." Page 99.

The visible laser light is clearly... umm... just the targeting system. Yeah, that's it.  :D Or it's to encourage the pilot. How can you know you're doing well if you can't see the lasers go pew?
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #14 on: 03 April 2017, 18:22:36 »
NACs use fusion blasts to propel their shells.

Lasers are bomb pumped, naval cannons are bomb pumped, everything's bomb pumped!
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Daryk

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #15 on: 03 April 2017, 18:49:14 »
Lasers are bomb pumped, naval cannons are bomb pumped, everything's bomb pumped!
LOL!  Seriously, I'm still laughing out loud as I type this... ;D

worktroll

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #16 on: 03 April 2017, 18:54:13 »
I can safely say I was not a fact-checker on ER2750.

Because frankly, that's silly, and not in tune with fiction/established canon fluff. If you're firing gamma rays, then you need to track radioactivity left in the target chassis, which would be a bit of a bummer for 'Mechs which have been on the battlefield for decades to centuries ...

Heck, I wanted to establish at some point that there's no 'quantum' in the Leviathans universe, just to avoid this sort of collision ;)

And Daryk, are you pumped?  ^-^
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #17 on: 03 April 2017, 18:59:36 »
Worktroll, I certainly was!

As far as radioactivity left in the chassis of various vehicles, perhaps everything is Zirconium... ::)

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #18 on: 03 April 2017, 19:11:02 »
I can safely say I was not a fact-checker on ER2750.

Because frankly, that's silly, and not in tune with fiction/established canon fluff. If you're firing gamma rays, then you need to track radioactivity left in the target chassis, which would be a bit of a bummer for 'Mechs which have been on the battlefield for decades to centuries ...

You know, there is a passage in another sourcebook that talks about how a conventional battle produces more radioactive contamination than a pure fusion nuclear warhead. Maybe it isn't that the warhead is clean, it's because everything else is dirty.  :)

Secretly, everything's radioactive!
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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worktroll

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #19 on: 03 April 2017, 19:22:21 »
A new explanation for FASA fyzziks, echognomics, and low recruitment rates?



And the true face of the Diamond Shark/Nova Cat?



(which isn't purely relevant, but popped up on an image search for "radioactive mutants")
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Maingunnery

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Re: Bomb-pumped laser missiles in the Battletech Universe
« Reply #20 on: 04 April 2017, 11:13:29 »
I can safely say I was not a fact-checker on ER2750.

Because frankly, that's silly, and not in tune with fiction/established canon fluff. If you're firing gamma rays, then you need to track radioactivity left in the target chassis, which would be a bit of a bummer for 'Mechs which have been on the battlefield for decades to centuries ...
It is more likely that BT found a trick to have the armor block the gamma rays.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

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