Author Topic: Talk to me about SLDF designs that Clanners use: The Pillager etc.  (Read 13956 times)

Sjhernan3060

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So I have always loved the Pillager from back in the Card Game days. I have recently ordered the older sculpt to add to my Clan Blood Spirit force ( Its a SLDF design so it goes in the spirit touman I say!) I have some questions:

Is it supposed to look like the Xeno morph from Aliens? If so why? I don't mind it at all just curious...

Why the claws? Again I dig the look just curious why the " ultimate sniper" mech would have them

Speaking of which in the game or in the fiction are claws effective?  I know Yen Lo Wang wrecked a bunch of foes with its claws but in other places claws etc are dimissed as just decoration

Finally which design of the Pillager would the clans have used and if you could IIC up the pillager what would you do it?

Empyrus

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The Pillager does not have Claws, just claw-like hand actuators. Don't think they even have quirk "battlefists", so they're completely cosmetic. A lot of 'Mechs have cosmetic things like like claws and spikes for intimidation factor.
(The Yen-lo-wang "claws" was a hatchet rules-wise because back then there were no rules for Claws proper.)

If the Clanners actually have active pillagers in their second-line forces, it is the PLG-3Z model as that was the main Pillager of the Star League forces. The older version, PLG-1N (two AC/20s) is extinct by the Succession Wars and the others are post-Clan Invasion Capellan designs.

The PLG-3Z has availability "IS and HW Clan General" in MUL
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2525/pillager-plg-3z

snewsom2997

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Lot's of art in TRO 3058 was done in a similar style.

Claws would just be aesthetic, they are not the actual Physical Weapon Claws that the YLW had.

I'd say that the PLG-3Z would be the only candidate for a Blood Spirit Force. Other than the Reunification War Variant, which has AC/20 instead of Gauss Rifles. Most variants were developed after the recovery of the Helm Core by the Capellean Confederation.

Personally I like the Pillager Anvil, but it is an experimental one off.

Luciora

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The Anvil version is produced as a guard mech for the factory.  I'm sure you can make up a story or history for how your group got one,  or several.  The way the tech has been moving,  it won't be experimental for long.

Sjhernan3060

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Right!

I always loved the Black Knight but hated the mini so I used the new DA Black Knight that IWM put out: http://ironwindmetals.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=9003

Which is one of my favorite sculpts they have ever done. Hey it is armed with all clan spec weapons and so its going into my Blood Guard Keshik!

glitterboy2098

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(The Yen-lo-wang "claws" was a hatchet rules-wise because back then there were no rules for Claws proper.)

in the book the "nails" on the YLW were basically just cosmetic.. they snapped off the moment he used that hand for a melee attack. the issue that gave it the hatchet was the fact that it removed the LRM10 to fit the AC20 on, per the book. which left it with a lot of unused weight. and since at the time you couldn't have underweight legal units, they had to use the mass somewhere. additional ammunition was out, and it couldn't mount more armor.

Empyrus

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in the book the "nails" on the YLW were basically just cosmetic.. they snapped off the moment he used that hand for a melee attack. the issue that gave it the hatchet was the fact that it removed the LRM10 to fit the AC20 on, per the book. which left it with a lot of unused weight. and since at the time you couldn't have underweight legal units, they had to use the mass somewhere. additional ammunition was out, and it couldn't mount more armor.
Yeah, i remember though i just interpreted the Centurion just receiving a crit to the melee weapon for some indeterminate reason while using it.

Luciora

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Or like how the first hatchetman was oversinked with no axe and 3 heat sinks were removed for the tonnage

in the book the "nails" on the YLW were basically just cosmetic.. they snapped off the moment he used that hand for a melee attack. the issue that gave it the hatchet was the fact that it removed the LRM10 to fit the AC20 on, per the book. which left it with a lot of unused weight. and since at the time you couldn't have underweight legal units, they had to use the mass somewhere. additional ammunition was out, and it couldn't mount more armor.

Colt Ward

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To the OP . . . its a 3/5/3 with 2 headcappers.  It MIGHT be in a star with Highlanders, Highlander IICs and Bloodkites or something similar.
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pensiveswetness

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But SLDF designs in Clan Tomans to my understanding have almost always been used by 2nd line and Garrison formations, yes? To me, I always interpreted their placement as a inherent bias against older 'Brian Cache' equipment (They might be pro Star League-In-their-own-minds but to prefer a Pillager to a Daishi or Warhawk? Never)

Cache

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The Pillager does not have Claws, just claw-like hand actuators. Don't think they even have quirk "battlefists", so they're completely cosmetic. A lot of 'Mechs have cosmetic things like like claws and spikes for intimidation factor.
Pretty much. The claws are a hold-over from the original Stardate magazine artwork: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=34361.0

[corrected publication]
« Last Edit: 08 April 2017, 09:31:46 by Cache »

Colt Ward

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For most sure . . . but for the Spirits?  They are equipment limited enough they might have a frontline cluster with a assault star of- Pillager 3Z, Highlander IIC, Blood Kite, Marauder IIC 3, and Emperor 6A . . . why?  Because the Pillagers give you two head-cappers and they will not be ignored, and the Emp gives you shotguns.  IMO that would be a pretty powerful jumping assault star (or if you need to drop the weight, put a Guillotine IIC or such) that could easily be found in the Spirits hands- especially after the Burrock absorption debacle.
Colt Ward
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Liam's Ghost

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The Pillager does not have Claws, just claw-like hand actuators. Don't think they even have quirk "battlefists", so they're completely cosmetic.

At least as of the beta version of the Battlemech Manual, the Pillager does indeed have the battlefist quirk.
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Sjhernan3060

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For most sure . . . but for the Spirits?  They are equipment limited enough they might have a frontline cluster with a assault star of- Pillager 3Z, Highlander IIC, Blood Kite, Marauder IIC 3, and Emperor 6A . . . why?  Because the Pillagers give you two head-cappers and they will not be ignored, and the Emp gives you shotguns.  IMO that would be a pretty powerful jumping assault star (or if you need to drop the weight, put a Guillotine IIC or such) that could easily be found in the Spirits hands- especially after the Burrock absorption debacle.

Yup

Gaiiten

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Maybe we will get a IIC variant in the upcoming TRO: Golden Century?

It is great a design demanding a updated Clantech variant, IMHO.
We do not have so many Clantech 100 Tonner.
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Sjhernan3060

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I support this and the new sculpt we will hopefully get! What upgrades do you think a IIC would have?

cavingjan

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If it gets a IIc treatment, it will be bad enough to have died out quickly.

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The Behemoth\Stone Rhino already fills allot of the roles the Pillager IIC would
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Well, the SERO has a SFE . . . Pillager has a XL.  A SL Pillager also has more ammo (48 vs 32) than a SERO carries . . . and if you gave it IIC treatment it could carry even more.  One additional way to make it different would be to give it ER lasers on the upgrade rather than pulse . . . especially if the Spirits did it, I could see it making the MLs on the centerline Larges like the Blood Kite has equipped.
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glitterboy2098

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i don't think we'd get a pillager IIC.. but a Pillager "C" replacing the weapons with clan models, but leaving the chassis parts IS would fit well.

Gaiiten

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For a Pillage "C" you could simply change the XL for a Standard engine when updating the weapons to Clantech.
Simple, but elegant update.

The XL could be used for an Omnimech.
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Wrangler

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I like the PLG-1N because its a double the Victor than the Victor is.  PLG-1N is slightly slower, but it does same thing and it's nastier if it gets you. It's essentially urban brawler/close-quarters combat machine.

Clanners properly use 3Z as a Solahma despite it being all together than many designs despite it having Star League Tech. I guess Clan scientist kept pursuing new designs than reinventing old ones with the IIC versions of many of the classics.

Honestly, its a backfill machine, it came in to history later in the game as a early machine (not counting resurrection/intro in 3058). So there won't be AS much history in the past why a IIC version never existed.  Heck the Imp C far nastier than Pillager goes.  Especially it's variant.
« Last Edit: 10 April 2017, 15:00:30 by Wrangler »
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Sjhernan3060

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Yes the imp! Has there been a mech of the week article on it yet?

JadeHellbringer

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Yes the imp! Has there been a mech of the week article on it yet?

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,18407.0.html

Best bet is to go into Chanman's index thread there (it's stickied) and run a search in your browser for the name of the unit you're looking for. Should come right up- if it doesn't, it means either that it hasn't been done, or you need to check your spelling (see: my typing 'Ipm' in my original search)
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Sjhernan3060

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Awesome read it! The Imp has always been a fav of mine even before I got into the Blood Spirits as to me it embodies the Fugly but Fierce look and feel I try to maintain

Wrangler

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Imp and Annihilater. The later is naster than the Pillager is as well. Especially C versions, but its not true generalist due lack speed and jumpjets.

Personally I wish the Pillager had royal version. Having spikes on its battlefist be nice touch making a point some one u aren't happy to see them!  ;D
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JadeHellbringer

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The other side of that is to consider what it means if your twin-Gauss-toting 100 tonner is in a fistfight.

It means you casually threw your range advantage in the lake.  :P
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Wotan

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Personally I wish the Pillager had royal version.

I always considered the twin gauss version as a royal.

Sjhernan3060

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What about the victor fluff says a bunch left on the exodus

Wrangler

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What about the victor fluff says a bunch left on the exodus

I think that's forgotten given how old that fuff is sadly.

I always considered the twin gauss version as a royal.
Gauss Rifles are pretty old by time the SL Civil War happened.  Thunderhawks started showing up as well as prototype Devastators and among others.  Pillager could at least gotten ER Large Laser or something to that effect.

Least the Capellans are still making the Pillager via St. Ives or were. *shrugs* Hard to say now.
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Sjhernan3060

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While I know the Exterminator was taken to the Homeworlds its very unclanlike in its design. So assuming it was not scrapped for parts what would a IIC version be like? Who would use it? Hmmmm I imagine the Society would have done nasty things with them

snewsom2997

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While I know the Exterminator was taken to the Homeworlds its very unclanlike in its design. So assuming it was not scrapped for parts what would a IIC version be like? Who would use it? Hmmmm I imagine the Society would have done nasty things with them

The Society had Omnimechs with Nova CEWS.

The Exterminator is more of a gunslinger mech, the quality of society pilots was to say the least lacking.

However if they did make one, I'd imagine, iATM-9, 4x Improved Heavy Medium Lases, and a LAMS, with DHS.

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Well, just because a mech was on the first exodus doesn't mean it survived the Pentagon Civil War, the second Exodus, and Klondike.  Aren't we told that as headhunter mechs Exterminators were prime targets?  And even after that there were still a few decades of Clan wars where a mech like an Exterminator might have been used (I can imagine a fair few being used by Clan Mongoose in units that hadn't yet received omnis, meaning they'd have been destroyed by the Jaguars).  Honestly, the Clans just do so much fighting that they turn over mechs in a huge hurry.

The same of course holds true for any other mech.  Sure, we know there were regiments upon regiments stashed away for rainy days, and I suppose its up to any given player what's in them.  But I'd be surprised if any of the really really cool stuff didn't get fished out over the last two centuries.
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Sjhernan3060

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hmmm I wonder then what was the main factor for a mech to survive to the 3050ish era

SteelRaven

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The SLDF in Exile took allot of mechs with them: Black Knights, Thugs, Ect. Doesn't mean they should all get the IIC treatment considering the the number new mech being produced.
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snewsom2997

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hmmm I wonder then what was the main factor for a mech to survive to the 3050ish era

More than likely locked in Cold Storage, because they were unclanlike, or were ineffective.

Sjhernan3060

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Has anyone used the Archer C ( or Wolfs Dragoon) clan tech archer? Seems pretty solid

snewsom2997

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Has anyone used the Archer C ( or Wolfs Dragoon) clan tech archer? Seems pretty solid

The Archer C is meh, solid basic mech, but nothing special, better than an ARC-2R DHS, ER Medium Lasers. However there is a lot of unused space. 10 Tons just from Swapping IS LRMS with Clan LRMS. Personally I would have preferred a Clan Refit of the ARC-2K.

For an indirect Fire mech the ARC-2W it is great in 3025 games, though lacking the 3 tons of armor means you will want to keep it well away from the action.
The ARC-5W is better, as it now has NARC, and XL Engine, DHS and CASE.






JadeHellbringer

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I'll back the above, ARC-5W is a mean son of a bitch. Had a hell of a time killing one in a merc campaign years ago- I ran the OPFOR, and that damned Archer would take a pummeling, shrug it off, and wander home when the fight was over or it had run out of LRMs. Every. Single. Time. It finally took a full alpha-strike from a Stuka to put it down- and it bagged the fighter in the exchange.
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The Archer C is meh, solid basic mech, but nothing special, better than an ARC-2R DHS, ER Medium Lasers. However there is a lot of unused space. 10 Tons just from Swapping IS LRMS with Clan LRMS. Personally I would have preferred a Clan Refit of the ARC-2K. 
I'm pretty sure the Archer-C does NOT have DHS.
Its nothing more than a Field Grade-A refit of clan weaponry, as are "most" of the "C" models from the Twycross book.

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I'll back the above, ARC-5W is a mean son of a bitch. Had a hell of a time killing one in a merc campaign years ago- I ran the OPFOR, and that damned Archer would take a pummeling, shrug it off, and wander home when the fight was over or it had run out of LRMs. Every. Single. Time. It finally took a full alpha-strike from a Stuka to put it down- and it bagged the fighter in the exchange.

Ouch.


I've used the 5S which is similar, but I don't think I've ever seen the 5W on the board in the 25+ years since 3050 came out.  :(
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I'm pretty sure the Archer-C does NOT have DHS.
Its nothing more than a Field Grade-A refit of clan weaponry, as are "most" of the "C" models from the Twycross book.
Yup. Straight weapon swap only. 10 tons underweight, generates over three times as much heat as it can dissipate with an alpha strike... With some tweaking, the 'Mech would be monstrous powerhouse from Spheroid perspective.

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Apollo's law, lol . . . I think that empty space on all the Cs should have been retcon'd into SHS (Clans salvaged enough) and that would at least make them legit.
Colt Ward
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Apollo's law, lol . . . I think that empty space on all the Cs should have been retcon'd into SHS (Clans salvaged enough) and that would at least make them legit. 

Agreed, I always felt if they just added some SHS to make up for the missing weight things would have been MUCH better off.
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It finally took a full alpha-strike from a Stuka to put it down- and it bagged the fighter in the exchange.

I did that with a LB-20X and 3 medium laser armed Thunder once...my 'Mech was still standing and hardly scratched afterwards...his Stuka was a burning lawn dart shredded over half the landscape...

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Sjhernan3060

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Alas the annilater and shogun mechs are hideous hopefully we get resculpts someday! But what about the Devastor I know only 6 prototypes left with the sldf... What mech would have taken its place?

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Alas the annilater and shogun mechs are hideous hopefully we get resculpts someday! But what about the Devastor I know only 6 prototypes left with the sldf... What mech would have taken its place?
SLDF-In-Exile would have had the Imp, the new symbol of the SLDF to be that design.  Thunderhawk would been among those assault mechs too, since it was in the same situation as the Devastator and Pillager.
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JadeHellbringer

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Alas the annilater and shogun mechs are hideous hopefully we get resculpts someday! But what about the Devastor I know only 6 prototypes left with the sldf... What mech would have taken its place?

Personal opinion is a rough thing to base plans on though. I'm a fan of the Annihilator's looks, myself.
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Personal opinion is a rough thing to base plans on though. I'm a fan of the Annihilator's looks, myself.
Check out Teslacoil's work on the Annie in the Fan Art board; you're in for a treat.
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Personal opinion is a rough thing to base plans on though. I'm a fan of the Annihilator's looks, myself.

I really did not like the look in the tech manuals I read but I really like the artwork I find of it online.  Those versions rock and make me want to play one.

Sjhernan3060

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Same. What do you think would be more common in the blood spirits ranks circa 3060ish the emperor or the annihaltor?

Sjhernan3060

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What if any omni design replaced the annihalator?

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So far the Kingfisher is the first Assault Omni that we know about (as far as I know) which shows up lik 30-40 years after the Annihilator, so theoretically that one, but you don't really get a "Slow" assault design until the Dire Wolf in 3010.

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So far the Kingfisher is the first Assault Omni that we know about (as far as I know) which shows up lik 30-40 years after the Annihilator, so theoretically that one, but you don't really get a "Slow" assault design until the Dire Wolf in 3010.
At least not that we know of. There is the possibility of one on TRO: Golden Century, but I haven't seen the unit list so I have no idea if there is one or not.
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Sjhernan3060

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Is TRO golden century in the pipeline?

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Is TRO golden century in the pipeline?
It's on the coming soon page and I haven't heard any news of it being cancelled, just that it's not as far along in production as some of the other stuff mentioned in this thread.
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Sjhernan3060

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Very cool. I love the IIC and the old school non Omni designs so I am all about this

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Waaay back, it was mentioned that the IICs we'd like new Classic versions aren't in mind for that book unfortunately.  Hopefully that changed, but i remember it being said.
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Sjhernan3060

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Interesting so are thinking it would be more early omnis or transitional non omnis like the kodiak?

wantec

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Interesting so are thinking it would be more early omnis or transitional non omnis like the kodiak?
It's not really known yet. What we do know, is that by looking at the MUL there are some units that have been mentioned in various products, but never received a TRO entry or recordsheet. Mechs like the Fox, Minsk, and Vision Quest (mentioned in TechManual) or the Storm Giant (in the Scylla TRO entry). Aerospace fighters like the Ogotai (StratOps) and the Specter Surveillance Plane (TM). Battle armor like the Rhino BA or the various pre-Elemental environment-specific suits.

I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting, but stuff like that I would think would be in there, at least to flesh out mentioned units before creating whole new ones. In most cases, those units I mentioned only have a name and maybe a tonnage listed to them, nothing else, so there's plenty of room to create.
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I dig it

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It's not really known yet. What we do know, is that by looking at the MUL there are some units that have been mentioned in various products, but never received a TRO entry or recordsheet. Mechs like the Fox, Minsk, and Vision Quest (mentioned in TechManual) or the Storm Giant (in the Scylla TRO entry). Aerospace fighters like the Ogotai (StratOps) and the Specter Surveillance Plane (TM). Battle armor like the Rhino BA or the various pre-Elemental environment-specific suits.

I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting, but stuff like that I would think would be in there, at least to flesh out mentioned units before creating whole new ones. In most cases, those units I mentioned only have a name and maybe a tonnage listed to them, nothing else, so there's plenty of room to create.
Given the product text in the Coming Soon there will be 25 new BattleMechs, OmniMechs, vehicles, aerospace and battle armor.
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Sjhernan3060

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Can anyone direct me to a mech of the week article on the SLDF Spartan?

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Can anyone direct me to a mech of the week article on the SLDF Spartan?
Badnews, the original article was lost to Website hack, so it's long gone.
The wayback machine does go to April 2010 when it was last posted, but i was unable to search for the article.
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Sjhernan3060

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Thanks for looking wrangler! Can anyone speak to its pro or cons?

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It's not very comfortable, pilots often describe it as spartan.  ;D
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Yuck Yuck Yuck

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Thanks for looking wrangler! Can anyone speak to its pro or cons?
This based on my experience using it and re-reading the TROs.

I only played it once, but essentially most models of this thing are Close-In Fighters and spotter.  A Fast Assault, which is meant get in the enemy face and get yell "This is Sparta"!  It's only long range weapon is it ER PPC, but the 3 Medium Pulses and the Streak 2s has very good chances damaging your target.

Most of the variants retains the basic mentality.  N1 which is old version only has single heat sinks, which it was replaced by the base model, the N2.   Best of the bunch (Star league wise) is NF. Which swaps the tag for Case to the machine, allowing it to survive to be salvaged.  The N3 is a Comstar/WoB variant, with C3I 3 additional Double Heat sinks, the three pulses are changed to ER Medium Lasers, while the antimissile system and ammo were removed to make way for the 3CI.

Pros: N1/N2/NF  - Accurate close-range fighter/spotter, with speed to spare 5/8 with good armor.  NF being most survivable of the all variants.  N3 = The best spotter with it's C3i network connection and improved range fighting capacities for the ER Medium Lasers.

Cons: N1 - Overheats due to single heat sinks not covering enough of the weapons heat. N2 - No CASE, vulnerable to ammo hit taking out by either the Anti-Missile System or the Streak Launchers, Not as well armed in comparison to other Assaults (modern ones). N3 - While better armed, its not as well armed as other mechs's it size.  ALL - Not range fighter, the mech likely to be taken out as it closes with superior armed opponent unless its similar.  Anti-Missile system was designed when rules were different, thus ammo lasts longer and likely be vulnerable to being key to the mech being taken out. Streak 2 plinking weapons, sure they will hit if fired but they don't do much damage unless you have opened up your enemy.  Biggest Con is the fluff.  Only 500 of these bad boys were ever made.  Thus by time ComGuards/WoB starting fielding the survivors into battle, you can count on you hands how many were left.   TRO:3067 mistakenly mentioned in different Mech's fluff that the Spartan was back into production which has since been say entry wasn't correct. Thus making it sure hard get operating one. If you did and your GM was evil in a campaign setting this thing likely to have a Design Quirk on Exinct (2750) thus parts hard to obtain.   

« Last Edit: 23 May 2017, 08:20:37 by Wrangler »
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Sjhernan3060

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Many thanks wrangler I am going to take the " and most examples left on exodus" and run with it so they can be part of my blood spirits. Now if you had clan tech to throw at it what would you do? Drop the TAG and Ams ?

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Many thanks wrangler I am going to take the " and most examples left on exodus" and run with it so they can be part of my blood spirits. Now if you had clan tech to throw at it what would you do? Drop the TAG and Ams ?
Depends if it was a refit vs new built with all clan technology. If were (i doubt they do it) all Clan Tech model, Case is built in, you could use Light Tag.   AMS is still in use as well.  Bare in mind, that Blood Spirits (early) were combine arms users certain parts of their existence.  Tag would be rarely use since its about what MechWarrior can do alone or as part of a Star.  AMS still has alot potential as well given its heavier missile/munition environment  However i have limited experience with Clans other than what Field manuals and the novels i read while back.

A Refit version would be highly likely due to how resource needy the Blood Spirits are.  Going all-Clan equipment in a Star League Machine would help with weight savings.  NF model is a Star League machine, so i'd go with that and slap in Clan weaponry.  Bare in mind that this is a rare machine unless your not sticking with canon.

By The Clan Invasions, When ComStar was fielding the Spartan, in  a novel they were taken back by just seeing one.  Warrior at first was hesitant in even destroying it, but they did it anyways.  I doubt the Spartan survive early era of the Clans.
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Sjhernan3060

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What are some good light or medium SLDF mechs you all think the sprirts would use?

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There only a few SLDF Mechs still used in Second Line Clusters in service with the Blood Spirits (via FM Updates).  As far Lights go there is the Mercury, Mongoose and as far Mediums go there was only the Crab.
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Sjhernan3060

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Right but let me be more clear looking at the sldf bench what mechs do you think the spirits would be all about outside the RAT? For theur 2nd line or provisional units? Falcon and mongoose come to mind

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There only a few SLDF Mechs still used in Second Line Clusters in service with the Blood Spirits (via FM Updates).  As far Lights go there is the Mercury, Mongoose and as far Mediums go there was only the Crab.

The RATs aren't exhaustive or definitive though. RATs are just a quick and dirty way to roll up a random force. The old 2d6 RATs only had 11 slots too, so there's no way they could fit everything in. The MUL is a more definitive source, though even that's not absolute.


Right but let me be more clear looking at the sldf bench what mechs do you think the spirits would be all about outside the RAT? For theur 2nd line or provisional units? Falcon and mongoose come to mind

Honestly I think they'd use whatever was at hand, especially after losing 5 Galaxies in the Burrock Absorption. I doubt they make many new replacement parts for SLDF mechs, and probably none at all, so the usual "lasers n' missuls" Spirit preference probably doesn't factor into things (and is often overblown anyway IMHO).

But if you're looking just for good Lights and Mediums then the Royal Locust, Mongoose, Royal Mongoose, Royal Hussar, Night Hawk, Lynx, Royal Crab and Royal Griffin are all on the Spirits' MUL entry. I don't see why they wouldn't have a Falcon or two either if you really wanted to field one.


Sjhernan3060

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I dig it. Any one have any guesess on which clan had the deepest brian Chache reserves right before the invasion? Just curious

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I dig it. Any one have any guesess on which clan had the deepest brian Chache reserves right before the invasion? Just curious

With the Clans' 'might makes right' mentality, you're probably looking at the more powerful Clans having deeper reserves in that regard (Wolf, Falcon, Jaguar, etc.). The other way to look at it is that weaker Clans likely needed to pull more out of their caches to keep up with losses as opposed to the more industrially-capable Clans. Losing, say, a Griffin IIC for the Jade Falcons means replacing it with another one, or a Hellhound, or something like that, while the Blood Spirits might have to pull out an old Phoenix Hawk or Crab or something like that because it's harder to build/trade for a replacement. That means the cupboard is much more bare after a couple hundred years for the Spirits or Mandrills or someone like that than it would be for the Wolves or Bears.
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Frogfoot

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I dig it. Any one have any guesess on which clan had the deepest brian Chache reserves right before the invasion? Just curious

The Diamond Sharks pulled an oversized Galaxy's worth of stuff out of the Vinton caches alone during the WoR. I think it was mostly SL vehicles though, and I don't know if they had other caches elsewhere.

Looking at the Wolf Touman in 3067, the Wolves must have had at least a Galaxy in SL machines that they used to rebuild after the Refusal War. 3067 is ten years on from the Refusal War and they STILL have a lot of SL tech in their 2nd-line Clusters.

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I dig it. Any one have any guesess on which clan had the deepest brian Chache reserves right before the invasion? Just curious

To be honest, that seems mostly a speed of plot thing. Though to add to what others have said, the Wolves (maybe other clans contributed) were comfortable with pulling over five hundred mechs (plus replacements) from their oldest caches to outfit the dragoons while still having caches to support later rebuilding post refusal war.

Heh, there might actually be thousands of introductory tech battlemechs stored away that the clans decided they had no use for given that Inner Sphere units that appear in clan ranks all seem to use at least some clan technology.

Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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actually, i would assume that by the Jihad the brian caches had been pretty well picked over. if the brian caches still had a lot of units, the jaguars wouldn't have been panicking over lack of resources. or being unable to muster enough mechs to defend huntress that they had to resort to repurposing IS salvage from the OZ. for example. ever since the 3060's the clans, even the homeworlders, have been worrying about lack of resources. if there were still a lot of stockpiled mechs in the caches, they'd not have been worrying so much.

i suspect that between the Dragoons compromise, the need to establish garrisons on all the OZ worlds, the constant fighting in the homeworlds, and the Society.. there just aren't much left over in the caches.

(and i suspect that there are fairly few introtech units.. those would likely have been the standard for the pentagon civil wars, and between that and the early inter-clan warfare were largely wiped out in clan space)

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The SLDF had tens of thousands of mechs available to them when they arrived in the pentagon worlds (a conservative estimate would be about 30,000 mechs, it was definitely more than that), and there's no indication that the pentagon civil war involved division on division action. Not only that, but the majority of these units were non-royal formations, meaning they were predominantly the introductory technology that was the backbone of the house armies.

And the clans were able to whip up two galaxies worth of introductory mechs pretty quickly for the dragoons, and continue to resupply them later on.

As for the Jaguars, well, they were kinda jags. They could easily consider introductory tech beneath them. Heck, even when their most desperate formations started using Inner Sphere salvage, they were doing so without approval and smuggling it in under false pretenses.

All that being said, even if we assume 95 percent of the older mechs were destroyed or recycled for parts, that still leaves thousands of mechs available. Galaxies worth. And, well, the Clans seem to have caches of whatever the story needs them to have.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Sjhernan3060

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That's why my blood spirits will have all the SLDF mechs I love

Sjhernan3060

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Now what about tanks and vechicles like the rotunda and manticore? I Get the sense that the spirits extreme frugality did not fully blossom until the golden century which was a very hard time for them

Sjhernan3060

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Did the spirits ever have an equipment surplus even after the raven mech For warships deal?

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The Blood Spirits have been portrayed as short of equipment and raw materials, allowing them to pare down their pool of warriors to the availability of the equipment they have, thus leaving their poorer warriors in other roles.
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Sjhernan3060

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Right, so do we think they burned through their SL stocks and slowly rebuilt with 2nd line clan tech?

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The rebuilt with whatever they could make, trade or trial for. They didn't manufacture a lot but they did make OmniMechs, 'Mechs and so on.
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Basically they were sort of in the position the Cappies were in after 4SW . . . and they solved it the same way, what they built were the cheapest/easiest designs they could field that were the most combat effective.  Its why you see their mechs with SFE, no or little ES/FF, using ERLL & LRMs (fighting from range means less damage you have to repair) and why they retained old command structures.
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Sjhernan3060

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That's why I love the spirits! You can put together a unit that has SLDF era tech to cutting edge protos and everything in between!

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Did the spirits ever have an equipment surplus even after the raven mech For warships deal?

IIRC
They bulked up their Touman to very large levels, then turned around & lost it all when they interfered w/ the Burrock absorption.
There is 3+ galaxies of troops that only existed for a short time in universe & were never fluffed out.
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Not completely true . . . Spirits will de-commission a cluster if its not pure . . . so if it does not have 3 mech trinaries, a vehicle trinary and a infantry trinary it will be sidelined until its up to that standard.  Its also why the clusters have no ASF forces integrated, because that was not the structure Nicky handed down.  It means they do not use Command Stars, Novas or Supernovas, or even binaries.  To me that raises the question of where they put protomechs in that structure- mechs or infantry?

So they could have had several provisional clusters that just did not have all the integral parts to be official and on the roster they handed in for the Grand Council project known as FMCC & FMWC.
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I raised the "where do ProtoMechs go?" question in the Blood Spirit faction thread quite a while back.  While I don't recall anyone ever finding a canon quote, the general consensus was that Proto stars replaced 'Mechs stars in the 'Mech trinaries on a one-for-one basis.  I was more in favor of using them to replace Elemental stars since 5x Elementals to a star = 5x ProtoMechs to a star, but I bowed to the logic that ProtoMechs are more 'Mech than infantry.
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I wonder what became of the Pillager in Clan service.  Unlike the Devastator (prototypes at time of the SL Civil War) and the Nightstar (was mere blueprints), Pillager had been in service for long time along with Emperor. Pillager was produce in (i would assume with mass produced 'Mech) in large enough numbers to be included most of the surviving Royals as they fled to the Deep Periphery.  Pillager certainly a tough enough machine that could been easily upgraded with latest Clan tech.

I know in reality the Pillager came along way after the clans were invented by FASA. I still wonder what happened.
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It would be interesting to get a new series of IICs using what are now SL classics such as the Pillager, Emperor 6A and others listed in the Reunification War.  Some we get like the Highlander IIC and others seem a bit misnamed . . . Warhammer IIC could in reality be looked at as a Thug IIC.
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I wonder what became of the Pillager in Clan service.  Unlike the Devastator (prototypes at time of the SL Civil War) and the Nightstar (was mere blueprints), Pillager had been in service for long time along with Emperor. Pillager was produce in (i would assume with mass produced 'Mech) in large enough numbers to be included most of the surviving Royals as they fled to the Deep Periphery.  Pillager certainly a tough enough machine that could been easily upgraded with latest Clan tech.

I know in reality the Pillager came along way after the clans were invented by FASA. I still wonder what happened.

Probably the same thing as alot of other designs. Got used until it was time to replace them, and then they got shoved into a Brian Cache someplace. Why they didn't get a IIC treatment could simply be because someone flipped a coin. "Highlander or Pillager?" "Eh...Highlander."

Colt Ward

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Well, I also look at it as this . . . what pre-Omni Golden Century assaults did they have floating around?  Annhilators, Imp C?, Stone Rhino, Banes, Supernova, Highlander IIC, Warhammer IIC, Marauder IIC, Shogun C?, Blood Kite and Phoenix Hawk IIC . . . 3 of those are questionable (Anni, Imp & Shogun), Stone Rhino is supposed to be rare, Blood Kite is exclusive-ish, Bane & SRN are limited spread IIRC . . . Highlander is just a rebuild of IS chassis with later intended production?  Which leave the Warhammer IIC, Marauder IIC and Phoenix Hawk IIC as commonly available assaults.  No Clan 100t/95t/90t designs for the Golden Century?  Kind of hard to believe the Smoke Jaguars would not have some 3/5 100t Clan machine to stroke their ego.
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What hurts me is the unseen IICs aren't suppose to be in Golden Century.  At least the last time i asked about it.
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Hellraiser

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To me that raises the question of where they put protomechs in that structure- mechs or infantry?

So they could have had several provisional clusters that just did not have all the integral parts to be official and on the roster they handed in for the Grand Council project known as FMCC & FMWC.


I raised the "where do ProtoMechs go?" question in the Blood Spirit faction thread quite a while back.  While I don't recall anyone ever finding a canon quote, the general consensus was that Proto stars replaced 'Mechs stars in the 'Mech trinaries on a one-for-one basis.

I don't recall where I read it, but yes, Proto's replace Mechs not Elementals.
I think it might have been in the Arcadia fluff? 
With limited access to Mechs the Blood Spirits started replacing their 3rd Mech Trinary with Protomechs to save resources.

Also, Colt.
I think its less several partial clusters sitting around & more, 3 heavily damaged clusters reformed into 2 full, or 1 full & shuffled the rest around to replace minor losses elsewhere.
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With the strikt layout of their clusters i always considered the Bloodspirits would use the ProtoMechs similar to their ASF. As a separate force that is attached if needed.

And for the sake of the Pillager and many other SLDF mechs that were introduced in the TROs after the first secondliners shown in TRO3055, i think they are strong enough to stay unmodified. We know the clans have many SL tech designs in their secondline ranks. So some rare Pillagers might be found there. They definitely will have fought the hardest battles in their time. So few are left to do so now.
But why not build new ones? I think that role was filled by the Highlander IIC and the Stone Rhino in the early clan days. No need for another designs with similar profile. And while the production for the Stone Rhino seems to be hold for some time, other designs came up to fill the role again. So no need for new Pillagers again.

The sheer number of clan designs is a hard break to their way to avoid waste. I think at least a third of all designs could be eliminated without loosing anything from the inplay point of view of a true warrior caste. ;)

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I wonder what became of the Pillager in Clan service.  Unlike the Devastator (prototypes at time of the SL Civil War) and the Nightstar (was mere blueprints), Pillager had been in service for long time along with Emperor. Pillager was produce in (i would assume with mass produced 'Mech) in large enough numbers to be included most of the surviving Royals as they fled to the Deep Periphery.  Pillager certainly a tough enough machine that could been easily upgraded with latest Clan tech.

I know in reality the Pillager came along way after the clans were invented by FASA. I still wonder what happened.
The Pentagon Civil War and Operation Klondike is probably what happened. The pre-clan worlds likely had very little manufacturing capacity when the SLDF-In-Exile started so parts would start to be a problem, first off. Factor in how not nice SLDF Davions and Cappies played with each other and very quickly machines would die, by hook or crook, with little or no way to replace them.
« Last Edit: 31 October 2017, 00:13:13 by pensiveswetness »

Colt Ward

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Re: Talk to me about SLDF designs that Clanners use: The Pillager etc.
« Reply #100 on: 31 October 2017, 00:59:48 »
Wotan, look up a few posts where I lay out what the Clans had in the way of assault machines before Omnis . . .

Nicki took what he could to Strana Mechty and built the logistical base to support the proto-Clans as well as re-ordering the society.  While caches that were found in the Pentagon worlds did become important, it was not just for parts- look what happened with the cache the Wolverines found.  The Clans probably fielded Atlas (know Nick did), Pillagers, Emperors, Highlanders, maybe Mackie, maybe prototype Devastators, and other elite assault units during the early years.  The one I always wanted fleshed out was the Storm Giant since that is what the Scylla came from, was it a SL-era mech, pre-Klondike or early prototype Clan equipment mech.

Look at the Highlander for example, 'thousands' traveled with the SLDF on the Exodus.  It says that no new Highlanders have been produced in more than a century (3060) but the occasional few are upgraded from the caches.  But almost 1500 Highlanders were either upgraded or new build IICs were made in the 200 years since the design debuted with the Adders having the most due to the Burrock absorption.  Though many have been scrapped or destroyed, several hundred still serve in the toumans.  The Crusader Wolves field a lot to offset losses from the Refusal War, opening a cache to commission several stars worth . . . which is 10-15 (maybe more) Highlander IICs or plain Highlanders they had in reserve.

Say 300, divided between the 15 Clans at that time . . . and its like 20 a Clan, though I would expect more.

So . . . honestly, the Pillager is like a mech I would expect the Jaguars to adopt or seek before Clan tech comes out . . . and perhaps the Stone Rhino was their attempt to build a Pillager IIC though it had problems that kept it from being produced as much as some players wish.
Colt Ward
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Wotan

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Re: Talk to me about SLDF designs that Clanners use: The Pillager etc.
« Reply #101 on: 31 October 2017, 04:51:27 »
Basically what i say. We don't see Pillagers in the RATs. But when you take a look in the MUL, it is Clan general even in the time of the first invasion. In my eyes it looks like the Pillager is not extinct within the ranks, but extremely rare.

We know not much about the production capacities of the early clans. We know not even the complete list of produced designs. So far no official source says explicitely that no Pillager was produced in the homeworlds. ;) But that would be a far stretch.
I still see no reason for the clans to spend that ressources as they had plenty of similar designs in their caches and had enough designs in production that fills the same role. Demand was to preserve ressources.
When it comes to the decision to produce the Highlander - or maybe already an upgraded version - there was no place for a Pillager production anymore. And the Highlander was always far popular than the Pillager.

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Re: Talk to me about SLDF designs that Clanners use: The Pillager etc.
« Reply #102 on: 31 October 2017, 10:02:48 »
What would have been in production among the early Clans?  I listed out the 3 common assault mechs being built though at some point someone starts at least limited production of the Highlander IIC.  Yeah, the Pillager's main battery does not drastically improve by switching to Clan tech, it just gets hardier and the secondary battery of lasers does get better.

If we ever get a Golden Century it will hopefully provide a bit more along these lines.
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Re: Talk to me about SLDF designs that Clanners use: The Pillager etc.
« Reply #103 on: 01 November 2017, 06:37:27 »

Say 300, divided between the 15 Clans at that time . . . and its like 20 a Clan, though I would expect more.


I once did some calculations showing Clan Ghost Bear had maybe 100 Executioners in service in 3067. Executioners. In CGB. There simply aren't that many assault Mechs in service.

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Re: Talk to me about SLDF designs that Clanners use: The Pillager etc.
« Reply #104 on: 01 November 2017, 06:46:12 »
I once did some calculations showing Clan Ghost Bear had maybe 100 Executioners in service in 3067. Executioners. In CGB. There simply aren't that many assault Mechs in service.
Woah, I'd never would have thought there were so few frontline machines like Executioner around. 

It makes more sense the Pillager was less in number since they hadn't been written into the story but years later. Thus why not showing up anywhere during the actual Clan Invasion to garrison worlds.
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Re: Talk to me about SLDF designs that Clanners use: The Pillager etc.
« Reply #105 on: 01 November 2017, 10:04:52 »
It DOES make some sense. Consider that Clan militaries aren't all that large compared to Inner Sphere armies. Then consider that the old rule was that assault Mechs make up a very small percentage of most armies, less than 10% as I recall (off the top of what I admit is a feeble mind). I could see machines like the Masakari and Daishi being extremely rare, even in the Clans that use them more than others like the Jaguars.
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Re: Talk to me about SLDF designs that Clanners use: The Pillager etc.
« Reply #106 on: 09 November 2017, 20:13:38 »
It DOES make some sense. Consider that Clan militaries aren't all that large compared to Inner Sphere armies. Then consider that the old rule was that assault Mechs make up a very small percentage of most armies, less than 10% as I recall (off the top of what I admit is a feeble mind). I could see machines like the Masakari and Daishi being extremely rare, even in the Clans that use them more than others like the Jaguars.

10% is the amount for 4th SW IS Armies on average.  (30-40-20-10)

The clans I assume are similar to the SLDF.
The SLDF, if we assume 50/50 in each "sized" regiment & equal distribution of regiment types are more like 17-33-33-17.

That is a lot of assumptions of course but we don't have specific #s for the era & I go equal/even splits over trying any sort of justification as to why LightHorse would be any more/less common than Dragoon.
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