Author Topic: "Pocket nuke" How big?  (Read 10417 times)

Liam's Ghost

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"Pocket nuke" How big?
« on: 20 April 2017, 21:31:40 »
So suppose you have a nuclear weapon that weighs six kilograms (about 13.2 pounds for those of us who refuse to embrace metric).

How physically small do you think you could make it? Backpack? Suitcase? Purse?

On a related note, you can create a lot of fun things with IO's generic nuclear weapon rules if you don't care about user survivability.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #1 on: 20 April 2017, 21:41:37 »

This may help... the specifications for the W54 (the original Davy Crockett):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W54#Specifications

FWIW...
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
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Daryk

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #2 on: 20 April 2017, 21:43:52 »
I think it depends on application to a degree.  If you actually want to carry the thing around safely until detonation, it'll have to be a bit bigger to accommodate some shielding.  If you're going to carry it inside a shielded magazine (as ammunition, for example), it could be smaller.

worktroll

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #3 on: 20 April 2017, 21:50:47 »
Remember, BT nucs ain't your granddaddy's fission implosion devices. THey're laser-initiated protium fusion. Yes, BT energy storage is that good that these can be reduced to "nuclear hand grenades".

SO your 6Kg device won't be dense like transuranics; it'll be more bulky. I'd suspect a 6Kg device might be the size of a two litre/quart bottle - mean density of 3. If you want a mean density of 5, then it's a 2/3 pint glass - it'll fit in your pocket, then rip the lining out :)

Hope that' useful for ideas.

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Liam's Ghost

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #4 on: 20 April 2017, 21:56:45 »
This may help... the specifications for the W54 (the original Davy Crockett):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W54#Specifications

FWIW...

Only problem is that the W54 is an old style fission weapon, while the weapon in this case is a star league (equivalent) technology pure fusion device. It's also about a quarter of the mass of the SADM based on the W54.

I think it depends on application to a degree.  If you actually want to carry the thing around safely until detonation, it'll have to be a bit bigger to accommodate some shielding.  If you're going to carry it inside a shielded magazine (as ammunition, for example), it could be smaller.

What I was thinking was a sort of universal physics package that can be slotted into a specialized artillery shell, briefcase, small diameter aerial bomb, or naval missile (as part of a multi warhead system).

Remember, BT nucs ain't your granddaddy's fission implosion devices. THey're laser-initiated protium fusion. Yes, BT energy storage is that good that these can be reduced to "nuclear hand grenades".

SO your 6Kg device won't be dense like transuranics; it'll be more bulky. I'd suspect a 6Kg device might be the size of a two litre/quart bottle - mean density of 3. If you want a mean density of 5, then it's a 2/3 pint glass - it'll fit in your pocket, then rip the lining out :)

Hope that' useful for ideas.

W.

I desperately want it to be no bigger than a brick. For so many reasons. "heh, you Rifts guys think your fusion blocks are so impressive!"
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #5 on: 20 April 2017, 23:17:02 »
Only problem is that the W54 is an old style fission weapon, while the weapon in this case is a star league (equivalent) technology pure fusion device. It's also about a quarter of the mass of the SADM based on the W54.

Eh, pure fusion devices need lasers and power sources.  In the real-world, these lasers would be on the scale of NIF or various Z-pinch machines (i.e., the size of large buildings).  Even in BT, combat lasers weigh at least half a ton (quarter-ton for the Clans) and are powered by engines weighing multiple tons, sometimes attached to magical "power amplifiers" weighing a fraction of a ton.  Even with some imaginary one-shot BT capacitors, batteries, or other energy storage devices replacing engines and amplifiers, it's hard to see how any pure fusion device is made compact enough such that the system weighs a handful of kilograms.  Honestly, it's hard to see how any pure fusion device weighs less than half a ton in BT.  Even the Clans' small chemical laser with one shot of ammo weighs 516kg before adding the fusion material, reflectance material, and bomb structure.

BT lasers and fusion engines could probably easily produce lots of antimatter to act as triggers in pure fusion devices.  But at that point, just skip fusion and throw antimatter.

There may be some way to use an explosively driven electromagnetic pulse or the gamma emission from a nuclear isomer to ignite fusion.  Those techniques could be compact in theory, but so far that stuff is either rumored at best or been proven false so far.  It's more in the realm of Eclipse Phase theoretical future physics than 1980s BT physics.

I think to go compact somewhat realistically, even in BT, you gotta go fissionable.  But it's an imaginary universe, and lasers and associated power sources powerful enough to ignite fusion but small enough to be carried within a suitcase or grenade are ultimately up to the GM.

"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Liam's Ghost

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #6 on: 20 April 2017, 23:20:55 »
I'm not coming up with the mass off the top of my head. That's what the generic nuke mechanics say it should weigh. It's also not the first manportable nuke in the battletech universe.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #7 on: 20 April 2017, 23:58:30 »
Question: can you make nukes small enough to replace LRM or SRM warheads?
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #8 on: 21 April 2017, 00:14:17 »
Just a hair over five kilograms is the absolute minimum mass (5.005 kg for a 0.01 kiloton warhead). So... maybe? 

Amusingly, such a warhead would only do two points of damage with a blast radius of one hex and a secondary radius of two hexes, so it would be highly usable even with SRMs, and still pretty lethal because of the secondary effect radius.

Also, each warhead would only cost 10,000 cbills. Spendy when you're talking about a full load of them, but arguably worth it.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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glitterboy2098

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #9 on: 21 April 2017, 00:40:59 »
Just a hair over five kilograms is the absolute minimum mass (5.005 kg for a 0.01 kiloton warhead). So... maybe? 
for Fission, i assume? because a pure fusion weapon should be able to get smaller. (you just hit the issue of practical use when smaller)

isn't there mention of nuclear hand grenades somewhere in the old FASA fluff?

Liam's Ghost

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #10 on: 21 April 2017, 01:54:09 »
for Fission, i assume? because a pure fusion weapon should be able to get smaller. (you just hit the issue of practical use when smaller)

Fusion. Tech level E. I'm not sure you can actually make a viable weapon with a fission core that small. You can only implode so hard...

Unless you're referring to yield, in which case I think that's more an artificial limit meant to keep the rules from breaking down.

Quote
isn't there mention of nuclear hand grenades somewhere in the old FASA fluff?

Yep, stated up in Interstellar Operations as the Elias, a five decaton weapon. It's more of a satchel charge and also weighs a bit more than five kilograms. Also not particularly physically destructive, but the secondary effects mess practically everything within half a kilometer up.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Daryk

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #11 on: 21 April 2017, 02:49:22 »
Just a hair over five kilograms is the absolute minimum mass (5.005 kg for a 0.01 kiloton warhead). So... maybe? 

Amusingly, such a warhead would only do two points of damage with a blast radius of one hex and a secondary radius of two hexes, so it would be highly usable even with SRMs, and still pretty lethal because of the secondary effect radius.

Also, each warhead would only cost 10,000 cbills. Spendy when you're talking about a full load of them, but arguably worth it.
Now THAT sounds like something the Taurians would do...

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #12 on: 21 April 2017, 03:55:31 »
Yep, stated up in Interstellar Operations as the Elias, a five decaton weapon. It's more of a satchel charge and also weighs a bit more than five kilograms. Also not particularly physically destructive, but the secondary effects mess practically everything within half a kilometer up.

I think this is a reference to Elias Liao.  His followers were responsible for a number of fusion explosions in 22nd-century Beijing, forcing him into offworld exile and the founding of the Liao dynasty:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Elias_Liao

I think the original House Liao SB reference used the term "fusion grenade".  Absent antimatter, I'm skeptical that a 5kg grenade could be a pure fusion device.  I don't see how lasers powerful enough and the associated energy sources shrink that small in the 22nd-century working forward from today's technology or backwards 800-odd years from BT lasers.

More realistically, I'd (re-)fluff the "Elias" as an implosion fission device using plutonium or californium, probably californium-252, which has a critical mass of 2.5kg:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_mass#Critical_mass_of_a_bare_sphere

Of course, some good fiction is necessary to explain how a religious terrorist like Elias got hold of weapons with such a rare, artificial element  -- or why anyone thought it was wise to make a nuclear device small enough for deployment by a lone, crazed infantryman -- in the first place...

FWIW...
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Liam's Ghost

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #13 on: 21 April 2017, 04:40:31 »
That particular isotope of Californium has a painfully short half life. It's not the kind of thing you'd want to use in a warhead that you won't expect to use any time soon. Also, it's not just the mass of the fissionable material. The core a typical implosion weapon is relatively tiny. Even the original fatman had a core about the size of a softball and massed only 6.2 kilograms. Everything else was the implosion mechanism.

Also, lowering the yield doesn't strictly lower the mass of that core. In fact, the core gets bigger because the implosion mechanism isn't as capable. The US Military's W48 shell used a 13 kilogram hollow plutonium core (critical mass for a solid sphere being around 10 kilograms) to make it small enough to fit in an artillery shell. And the rest of the shell still weighed about four times that. The later W54 didn't particularly improve on that.

Fission is not the route you go for suitcase nukes.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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JadeHellbringer

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #14 on: 21 April 2017, 08:07:49 »
Question: can you make nukes small enough to replace LRM or SRM warheads?

LRM? Maybe...

SRM? Bad idea, hombre.  ;D
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #15 on: 21 April 2017, 09:21:04 »
LRM? Maybe...

SRM? BadBEST idea, hombre.  ;D

Fixed that for you. ;D
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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #16 on: 21 April 2017, 09:40:54 »
In "Betrayal of Ideals," two grown men were able to carry a Peacemaker-class warhead between them over rough terrain to their truck.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #17 on: 21 April 2017, 09:46:13 »
In "Betrayal of Ideals," two grown men were able to carry a Peacemaker-class warhead between them over rough terrain to their truck.

"Good god, Phil, I thought you wanted me to help move a couch or something."
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
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Daryk

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #18 on: 21 April 2017, 10:09:09 »
Fixed that for you. ;D
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #19 on: 21 April 2017, 10:11:10 »
Fission is not the route you go for suitcase nukes.

I dunno.  For me, it's easier to suspend disbelief that the explosives, electronics, and the rest of the triggering mechanism for a fission device could shrink by one order of magnitude by the 22nd-century than it is to believe that the lasers and power sources necessary for a pure fusion device could shrink by many, many orders of magnitude over the same time period.  Even more so given what we know about BT laser size.  Lasers and energy sources of the necessary power and size for a pure fusion grenade seem more like Eclispe Phase-type technology than BT, and beg the question of why they're not being used outside of pure fusion devices -- like fingernail lasers for Manei Domini or vehicle-grade chemical lasers that weigh kilograms instead of tons for the Clans.  Both approaches involve handwavium, but with the latter, my arm is as exhausted as a beauty queen at the end of a parade.  Of course, YMMV...

[EDIT...]

Just to illustrate, over the next century, it's must be orders of magnitude easier to turn this...



Into this...



Than it is to turn this...



Into this...



Again, YMMV...

« Last Edit: 21 April 2017, 21:13:04 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #20 on: 21 April 2017, 10:26:47 »
Real world nukes probably have theoretical maximum density of kilogram per 1 megaton (current devices are around 500 kg per 1MT at best). With BT tech, i'd imagine it should be possible to create a few kiloton fission device that is pretty light and compact, definitively in the suit-case territory.

It wouldn't be "clean" but then a pure fusion device is not really either. Neutron activation, gamma rays, whatever else leaves behind some contamination. A very small fission device probably wouldn't be much worse.

EDIT While BT doesn't really refer to anti-matter, i've always assume BT's fusion bombs are actually anti-matter initiated. A pure fusion device by other means is gonna be complicated. Of course, BT does have magic fusion engines for 'Mechs so a pure fusion bomb is not a big leap probably...
EDIT2 Also, anti-matter initiated/catalyzed fission devices would be really compact.
« Last Edit: 21 April 2017, 10:39:57 by Empyrus »

Maingunnery

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #21 on: 21 April 2017, 11:13:48 »

Fusion LRM/SRM ammo?

Now I have finally found an ammo that is worth cutting the number of shots (per ton) in half.

Maybe require Artemis for optimal missile spread?
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #22 on: 21 April 2017, 11:22:03 »
It may have been on a lost iteration of the forums, but some time back someone had a thread theorizing that all BT "fusion" actually involves antimatter, that in essence the BT scientists just missed that there's matter-antimatter reaction going on in fusion reactors and boosting their yield.  Or something like that.  A quick search didn't come up with it, but maybe someone else remembers it better than me and can dig it up.




Edit: Found it, but I was misremembering.  It was about fusion engines actually being zero-point systems.  By the one and only ColBosch.


http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=40471.0
« Last Edit: 21 April 2017, 11:30:37 by Arkansas Warrior »
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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #23 on: 21 April 2017, 11:29:51 »
I did the math once, back in the dark ages.  Not even pure matter/anti-matter annihilation can account for the energy output of a BT fusion rocket.  It really is PFM.

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #24 on: 22 April 2017, 06:10:31 »
They got pretty small, but I don't think much smaller then a dozen kilos or so.
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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #25 on: 22 April 2017, 07:29:54 »
Also don't forget that BTech nukes tend to be quite 'clean' and unless a weapons been deliberately made the way we make outs now, a nuke going off don't seem to leave much radiation behind. The problem for all invovled near a bucket of sunshine being lobbed of course is the initial burst of radiation as well as a 'slight' increase in temperature.
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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #27 on: 22 April 2017, 10:39:21 »
Yep, stated up in Interstellar Operations as the Elias, a five decaton weapon. It's more of a satchel charge and also weighs a bit more than five kilograms. Also not particularly physically destructive, but the secondary effects mess practically everything within half a kilometer up.

You'll note that it's very carefully just enough damage to one-shot any mech in existence, at least until the advent of armors and other things can boost head armor past the 9-point normal max. :)
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glitterboy2098

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #28 on: 22 April 2017, 12:34:05 »
natasha, consider that in BT, they have taken this:


(including those trailer sized powerpacks behind it)

and shrunk it down to this:



the limit on laser induced fusion in real life is the fact our lasers are pathetically weak on by mass basis. BT does not have that problem. and it is a problem they had to overcome before viable mobile Fusion drives and engines could exist. which they discover fairly early on.
« Last Edit: 22 April 2017, 12:37:16 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #29 on: 22 April 2017, 13:17:45 »
natasha, consider that in BT, they have taken this:


(including those trailer sized powerpacks behind it)

and shrunk it down to this:



the limit on laser induced fusion in real life is the fact our lasers are pathetically weak on by mass basis. BT does not have that problem. and it is a problem they had to overcome before viable mobile Fusion drives and engines could exist. which they discover fairly early on.

And said pistol has a per shot yield of 20 grams of TNT (or 100,000 joules, Tactics of Duty uses both)

Quote from: Tactics of Duty CH 8
There was no time to waste. Coolly, the other man tossed his needler to the floor at Pardo's feet, peeled off his gloves, then drew his other weapon, a heavy, military-model TK70 laser pistol. "Goodbye, Pardo."
He fired, sending a bolt squarely into the gunman's chest; one-tenth of a megajoule in a tenth-second pulse dumped energy equivalent to twenty grams of exploding TNT into the target. A fist-sized crater opened Pardo's chest in a burst of vaporizing blood and tissue

later on in CH 14 (end of)
Quote
He squeezed the trigger. There was a flash, and his external pickups caught the man's shriek as his clothing and kevlar armor caught fire. Alex shifted targets as the man tumbled backward off the wall; a second trooper running along the walkway took a pulse of coherent light squarely in the chest, and the explosion of vaporizing body fluids and tissue also pitched him backward and off the rampart.
...
An alarm was sounding somewhere in the depths of the Citadel's central keep, a rasping buzz that set the teeth on edge. Atop the gate tower, off to Alex's right, a quad-mount gun turret pivoted about with a mechanical whine, its twin pairs of autocannons dipping to bear on the invader. Alex triggered a shot from his laser, sending a blue-green pulse of light slashing through the night, searing off one of the gun barrels and boiling away a fist-sized crater in a burst of hot vapor.
Thats a Laser Rifle (pulse IIRC), capable of generating enough force from your own body vaporizing to move you (not the only time this shows up, a Pistol also dose this in Black Dragon), and can cut through a gun barrel and still leave a fist size crater in armor.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #30 on: 22 April 2017, 13:54:38 »
As far as fission weapons, it's a case of a pure minimum amount of fissile material required at the levels of pressure we can reach with current explosives.  A spherical source of plutonium needs about 30-35 pounds of material to reach an extreme prompt criticality.  However, assuming some sort of super-explosive that makes octanitrocubane look like a party favor can be developed in the next thousand years, it's likely that we can use less material and, with better explosives, cram it into even smaller amounts for fission.  Linear implosion designs got down to a 200 ton-yield weapon 5 inches across and 2 feet long back in the 1950s, so the idea of a hand grenade - which doesn't have to be all that small, in the end; imagine a big potato-masher - that can do a little alchemy isn't impossible.

Not getting into political debate, but just pointing out that politics and treaties did cut back significantly on weapons design and development, we've only really gone about 30-40 years of serious work in miniaturizing nuclear warheads.  With improvements in other materials - tamper, reflectors, initiators, extra neutron sources - there's plenty of potential.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #31 on: 22 April 2017, 14:21:43 »
And said pistol has a per shot yield of 20 grams of TNT (or 100,000 joules, Tactics of Duty uses both)

later on in CH 14 (end of)Thats a Laser Rifle (pulse IIRC), capable of generating enough force from your own body vaporizing to move you (not the only time this shows up, a Pistol also dose this in Black Dragon), and can cut through a gun barrel and still leave a fist size crater in armor.

the navy's LaWS is a max of 30,000 watts (1 watt = 1 joule/second) so really that pistol is equal to three of those small building sized LaWS emplacements... and the BT pistol can fire that as fast as you can pull the trigger, up to five shots using a power pack the size of a IRL pistol magazine. the LaWS requires a multi kilowatt class mobile generating station trailer and takes quite a few seconds to recharge the capacitors between shots.

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #32 on: 22 April 2017, 14:26:53 »
Scifi power sources make for better explosives and weapons than the weapons the power sources are used for  ;D

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #33 on: 22 April 2017, 15:40:16 »
Edit: Found it, but I was misremembering.  It was about fusion engines actually being zero-point systems.  By the one and only ColBosch.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=40471.0

Yikes, why did anyone ever pay me to write for them? Sadly, I don't think that really applies to this discussion; BattleTech nuclear weapons don't seem to produce those insane levels of power.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #34 on: 22 April 2017, 15:51:05 »
natasha, consider that in BT, they have taken this:


(including those trailer sized powerpacks behind it)

That's a ~500x kilowatt-class laser of the kind used to cost-effectively swat down unarmored UAVs, missiles, and the like.

The National Ignition Facility pic I copied above concentrates 500 terawatts on its fusion target.  That's nine orders of magnitude larger.

We would literally need a _trillion_ of the Ford carrier lasers to put out power equivalent to the NIF, which itself only sorta, kinda starts a D-T reaction (forget igniting a pure fusion weapon).

The BT universe may have shrunk today's anti-missile/anti-UAV lasers down to the size of a handheld weapons some hundreds of years into the future.

But that doesn't mean that an inertial confinement fusion facility with power levels a trillion times larger has been shrunk to the size of a grenade in the BT universe, especially not by next century.

Assuming all these lasers shrink at the same rate in the BT universe, then inertial confinement fusion devices in the BT universe are still a trillion times larger than a BT handheld laser weapon.

Again, I think a jump from today's backpack-sized fission warheads to futuristic fission grenades is a lot easier to swallow than a jump from today's inertial confinement fusion facilities to futuristic pure fusion grenades.

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #35 on: 22 April 2017, 21:34:29 »
Scifi power sources make for better explosives and weapons than the weapons the power sources are used for  ;D
Yup. Federation ships really needed to carry a spare Warp Core just in case they need to drop one on a Space Problem.
Much like kamikaze dropships flying around at ~0.3c could just be the beginning and end of every battle if we wanted to ban fun from BT.
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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #36 on: 22 April 2017, 22:24:00 »
That's a ~500x kilowatt-class laser of the kind used to cost-effectively swat down unarmored UAVs, missiles, and the like.

The National Ignition Facility pic I copied above concentrates 500 terawatts on its fusion target.  That's nine orders of magnitude larger.

We would literally need a _trillion_ of the Ford carrier lasers to put out power equivalent to the NIF, which itself only sorta, kinda starts a D-T reaction (forget igniting a pure fusion weapon).
30 kw actually.

and the distinction you make is kinda pointless, in that the NIF achieves it's power by clever manipulation of a much weaker beam.. it achieves it by concentrating the standard beam down, and compressing it in duration by cycling it back through over itself for a feedback effect. the main reason it is so bulky is because these systems require great bulk (it uses Xenon flashbulbs for the initial laser pulse.. it's not even solid state like the LaWS!)
it also wastes a ridiculous amount of power in converting frequencies.. they start with IR but have to convert it to UV. the actual energy delivered to the target is in the order of 1.8 megajoules. ( http://lfw.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ARTCL&ARTICLE_ID=257238&VERSION_NUM=3&p=12 )

with BT technology you can make a solid state UV beam generator able to produce a one time pulse of that power fairly easily.

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #37 on: 22 April 2017, 22:39:03 »
Yup. Federation ships really needed to carry a spare Warp Core just in case they need to drop one on a Space Problem.
Much like kamikaze dropships flying around at ~0.3c could just be the beginning and end of every battle if we wanted to ban fun from BT.
you know the ideal of federation starships carrying around spare "warp cores" makes too much sense if you think about what they "really are" in the ships I mean not just as a plot McGuffin for the adventure of the episode but as a design feature of the ship.

I mean think about it you have this "really big" module in he middle of engineering, (in the enterprise D ) it was between 3 and 5 decks high, that had the main fiddly bit IE the reaction chamber in the main engineering deck, that is effectively the main power plant for the starship (I know there are supplemental 'typically fusion' reactors to make sure no systems are totally unpowered but something like 80-90% at a guess of the operating power comes from the warp core. why would ANY ship that is at least sometimes military have a single point of failure that can effectively "mission kill" or really kill the whole ship.

all of a sudden the star wars backup hyperdrives that are supposed to be on pretty much everything hyperdrive equipped that is bigger than a snubfighter or possibly a shuttle, has a backup huperdrive even if it is pathetically slow compared to the "main" hyperdrive.  I remember in the "legacy" sw rpg stuff a CEC YT-1300 (the millennium Falcon's base ship) has something like a X2 main and X12 backup hyperdrive.

so in the enterprise D's case it should have either a "main warp core" warp 9.975 or whatever max, and either 1-2 full backup warp cores on board that can be assembled, and or a main warp 9.975 main warp core and if it has to be jettisoned for "reasons" a "backup" warp core, that can allow the ship to "limp" away at warp 3-5 ish. until the main warp core can be repaired/replaced.

glitterboy2098

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #38 on: 22 April 2017, 23:14:06 »
well Voyager actually showcased that a few times.. and the TNG tech manual and deckplans both had the Ent-D with spares. though in both cases it was basically spare parts to assemble a replacement.

the original Enterprise in the 2nd pilot could sustain a low warp capacity using just the power produced by their impulse engines (fusion drives), after the main power burned out. most likely they were using the impulse engines as powerplants only, feeding into the warp drive to energize the plasma they needed for the nacelles to do their thing. (this is more or less how the novels handled the original TOS Romulan warbird as well.. fusion powered warp drive instead of antimatter. ST:Enterprise implied such technology in the pilot when discussing the warp 5 engine, but never made it clear)

guardiandashi

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #39 on: 23 April 2017, 01:39:28 »
well Voyager actually showcased that a few times.. and the TNG tech manual and deckplans both had the Ent-D with spares. though in both cases it was basically spare parts to assemble a replacement.

the original Enterprise in the 2nd pilot could sustain a low warp capacity using just the power produced by their impulse engines (fusion drives), after the main power burned out. most likely they were using the impulse engines as powerplants only, feeding into the warp drive to energize the plasma they needed for the nacelles to do their thing. (this is more or less how the novels handled the original TOS Romulan warbird as well.. fusion powered warp drive instead of antimatter. ST:Enterprise implied such technology in the pilot when discussing the warp 5 engine, but never made it clear)
I know there was a novel where someone was using I think it was based in TNG era but its been years since I read it, a ship that was powered by a nuclear (fission) reactor, its biggest issue was the shear size of the power plant and the amount of "fuel" needed to make it work.

the thing to remember about star trek is the reason they use antimatter reactors at least in "first world" equivalent star nations (like the federation, the romulan and Klingon empires) is that while its not the best fuel around because of the horrible amounts of power needed to make the antimatter, containment issues and the like, but it is effectively the most energy dense fuel they have access to.  IE an antimatter reactor to run the Enterprise D is about 3-5 meters in diameter and ~3-5 decks high  a fusion reactor would likely be several times that size for the same energy output.  and while a fusion reactor could likely run on the same hydrogen slush, their tech makes routine storage of significant amounts of antimatter routine if not exactly "safe"

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #40 on: 23 April 2017, 11:38:20 »
Remember, BT nucs ain't your granddaddy's fission implosion devices. THey're laser-initiated protium fusion. Yes, BT energy storage is that good that these can be reduced to "nuclear hand grenades".

SO your 6Kg device won't be dense like transuranics; it'll be more bulky. I'd suspect a 6Kg device might be the size of a two litre/quart bottle - mean density of 3. If you want a mean density of 5, then it's a 2/3 pint glass - it'll fit in your pocket, then rip the lining out :)

Makes sense to me. I might take the density a bit lower - you're dealing with capacitors and lithium deuteride with water-like densities, unless there's been some radical breakthrough in laser and capacitor density.
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ColBosch

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #41 on: 23 April 2017, 12:04:10 »
...so you're saying I can fit micronuke warheads in my LRMs.
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Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #42 on: 23 April 2017, 12:23:50 »
...so you're saying I can fit micronuke warheads in my LRMs.
I would argue you can.
IO has rules for "generic warheads". I would assume one can produce a nuke with those rules that can be ruled to fit a LRM launcher.

EDIT Individual LRM weights, what, 8 kg? Can't fit very large warhead to one, especially since it must have sufficient fuel for 21 hex flight range. Were i a GM, i'd accept up to 5kg warheads for LRMs... Maybe. Or maybe 3-4 kg.

EDIT Duh, nuke minimum weight is 5kg. 0.5kt tech rating E nuke would weight 5+(0.5x0.5)=5.25kg. I'd rule that fits a LRM. Just because.
EDIT OTOH, i T-augs weight 16 kg per missile (halved ammo amount). Assuming 10kg booster and 6kg nuclear warhead for LRMs with 12/8/6/3 rounds per ton for LRM 20/15/10/5 respectively...
« Last Edit: 23 April 2017, 12:39:03 by Empyrus »

Cryhavok101

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #43 on: 23 April 2017, 12:36:42 »
The smallest you can make right now is 5kg+some indeterminately small fraction (you can alter the yield to raise or lower that fraction) of a kg. 3-4 kg nukes aren't possible in BattleTech (according to the generic nuke rules anyway).

Maingunnery

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #44 on: 23 April 2017, 13:06:05 »

What would be the most efficient way to resolve an 'Fusion' LRM-20 attack?
(Assuming the targets survives the initial hits)
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Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #45 on: 23 April 2017, 13:36:18 »
What would be the most efficient way to resolve an 'Fusion' LRM-20 attack?
(Assuming the targets survives the initial hits)

Assuming 0.5kt warheads, a cluster of 5 LRMs deals 500 damage in the impact hex/target...
...
I recommend using T-bolts for small nuclear warheads, works better than LRMs. Less stuff to think about.

ColBosch

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #46 on: 23 April 2017, 13:41:10 »
Assuming 0.5kt warheads, a cluster of 5 LRMs deals 500 damage in the impact hex/target...
...
I recommend using T-bolts for small nuclear warheads, works better than LRMs. Less stuff to think about.

Oh no, I want to roll on the Cluster Hits table. Slowly. While smiling and maintaining eye contact with my opponent.
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Maingunnery

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #47 on: 23 April 2017, 13:49:23 »
Assuming 0.5kt warheads, a cluster of 5 LRMs deals 500 damage in the impact hex/target...
...
I recommend using T-bolts for small nuclear warheads, works better than LRMs. Less stuff to think about.
Lets assume Elias (0.05 Kiloton) warheads, thus 10 damage per LRM.
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Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #48 on: 23 April 2017, 13:51:27 »
Lets assume Elias (0.05 Kiloton) warheads, thus 10 damage per LRM.
Oh, holy hell. I just realized how powerful LRMs would be even with just 10 pts per missile...

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #49 on: 23 April 2017, 13:53:38 »
So...lots of Taurian ARC-2R production incoming?
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Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #50 on: 23 April 2017, 13:56:40 »
So...lots of Taurian ARC-2R production incoming?

Imagine if they'd team up with Regulans...

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #51 on: 23 April 2017, 14:00:36 »
Can we have nuclear-tipped RLs?  Because if we can I want a MAD-4H.  Or an Archer-6W.
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Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #52 on: 23 April 2017, 14:03:59 »
Can we have nuclear-tipped RLs?  Because if we can I want a MAD-4H.  Or an Archer-6W.
A RL-10 weighs 500kg.
500/10=50kg per rocket.
Let's say 25kg per rocket, the rest is launcher mechanism.
And let's say the warhead weights 6 kg or so...
Yeah, i'd say nuclear rockets are possible.

(BTW, there were nuclear rockets IRL, intended to devastate bomber formations.)

ColBosch

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #53 on: 23 April 2017, 14:04:16 »
Did we just break BattleTech? ;D
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Maingunnery

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #54 on: 23 April 2017, 14:08:33 »
I was thinking about cluster rolls, and realized that while 'Elias LRMs' wouldn't miss per-say,
they could be destroyed prematurely by the splash damage from other 'Elias LRMs' in the same salvo.

So lets keep rolling on the Cluster Hits table.
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ColBosch

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #55 on: 23 April 2017, 14:15:31 »
I was thinking about cluster rolls, and realized that while 'Elias LRMs' wouldn't miss per-say,
they could be destroyed prematurely by the splash damage from other 'Elias LRMs' in the same salvo.

So lets keep rolling on the Cluster Hits table.

They don't have to detonate on impact. If you were to program them to wait a split-second before detonating, I think you get almost all of them to go off at once. Maybe apply a -1 or -2 penalty to the Cluster Hits table to represent warhead fratricide.
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Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #56 on: 23 April 2017, 14:17:28 »
That's like pouring water to a volcano as effect goes...
We haven't even thought about secondary effects yet  :P

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #57 on: 23 April 2017, 14:23:48 »
Lets assume Elias (0.05 Kiloton) warheads, thus 10 damage per LRM.

Personally, I prefer the 0.01 kiloton warhead I posited earlier. It may only be 2 points per warhead, but each one also forces a roll on the secondary effect table, with a one in six chance of killing a mech outright regardless of damage.

Also, it's safer for the pilot to use. These Archers don't grow on trees you know!
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #58 on: 23 April 2017, 14:25:31 »
Did we just break BattleTech? ;D

It's amazing what you can do when you abandon all decency. The Word of Blake was weak.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #59 on: 23 April 2017, 14:36:04 »
A RL-10 weighs 500kg.
500/10=50kg per rocket.
Let's say 25kg per rocket, the rest is launcher mechanism.
And let's say the warhead weights 6 kg or so...
Yeah, i'd say nuclear rockets are possible.

(BTW, there were nuclear rockets IRL, intended to devastate bomber formations.)
Did we just break BattleTech? ;D
Bosch, we've certainly  8) let the Genie out of the bottle  8)
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Cryhavok101

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #60 on: 23 April 2017, 14:37:10 »
Interesting idea:

Thunderbolt-10 ammo is 167 kg each. Small support vehicles can be designed at 100 kg or higher... you could just design your own small support vehicle "ammo" for a thunderbolt-10. You could design it with the fuel and range you want, and the nuclear payload you want. Make it robotic of course.

Maingunnery

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #61 on: 23 April 2017, 14:40:57 »
Personally, I prefer the 0.01 kiloton warhead I posited earlier. It may only be 2 points per warhead, but each one also forces a roll on the secondary effect table, with a one in six chance of killing a mech outright regardless of damage.
Mmm..... O yes the SECONDARY NUCLEAR EFFECTS TABLE.

A nerf to, one roll per turn, will be needed to reduce the number of rolls.
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ColBosch

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #62 on: 23 April 2017, 14:50:49 »
Bosch, we've certainly  8) let the Genie out of the bottle  8)

YEEEEAHHH!

Mmm..... O yes the SECONDARY NUCLEAR EFFECTS TABLE.

A nerf to, one roll per turn, will be needed to reduce the number of rolls.

See above, re: smiling and eye contact. If the table isn't flipped before I get to the SECOND salvo of LRMs, then I've done something wrong.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #63 on: 23 April 2017, 14:54:10 »
See above, re: smiling and eye contact. If the table isn't flipped before I get to the SECOND salvo of LRMs, then I've done something wrong.

I think most tables would be flipped the moment you said "nuclear LRMs".

This is why I usually game on floors.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #64 on: 23 April 2017, 14:56:59 »
How about nuclear HVAC/2 ammo?

cornmoggler

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #65 on: 23 April 2017, 15:41:59 »
Literally laughed out loud at that, everyone where i am is starting at me like a loon.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #66 on: 23 April 2017, 16:21:52 »
How about nuclear HVAC/2 ammo?
Nuclear gauss rounds?  Or would the magnetic acceleration screw the physics package, possibly causing a nuclear misfire?
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Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #67 on: 23 April 2017, 16:47:52 »
Nuclear gauss rounds?  Or would the magnetic acceleration screw the physics package, possibly causing a nuclear misfire?
Rules-wise, this should be possible. But i didn't suggest Gauss rounds because canonically they're solid slugs, not explosive-filled shells. And between this and them already being powerful, converting them for delivering nukes doesn't seem to be particularly practical.
And HVAC/2 has the longest range of all direct-fire weapons, just behind ELRMs.

EDIT Not sure what happens when the physics package is subjected to intense magnetic fields Gauss weapons have. Might not have any effect assuming it is properly shielded. I have vague recollection of the US Navy or whoever was developing that railgun is seeking a guidance system for the projectiles. If that can be done, i'd imagine you could add something else to Gauss slugs as well. (Of course rail and Gauss guns are different things really, so, again, not sure about this.)
« Last Edit: 23 April 2017, 16:51:49 by Empyrus »

glitterboy2098

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #68 on: 23 April 2017, 17:17:25 »
don't we have mention of nuclear Thumper artillery rounds?


Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #69 on: 23 April 2017, 18:05:25 »
Pretty sure only the Long Tom and Arrow IV have official nuclear warheads.
Which kinda ruins that one Regulan Grand Titan that was fluffed as firing nuclear shells (with... Sniper, i think?), officially it can't do that.

glitterboy2098

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #70 on: 23 April 2017, 19:10:23 »
that was the one i was thinking..

even if we do not have official stats, i'm sure ones could be made. after all, if an LRM can carry a .01kiloton warhead, surely a Thumper or Sniper round could carry something even more lethal.

Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #71 on: 23 April 2017, 19:29:02 »
It helps Davy Crockett-M weighs 5 times as much as normal Arrow IV.
A launcher can actually fire heavier missile than it should due these rules oddities.

How about AC/20 nuclear shell that weighs one ton (ie one shot per ton)?
Assume Tech C warhead, so 15+(yield*2) kg weight... We can easily fit larger warhead than the Davy Crockett to this shell. Say, 250kt.

truetanker

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #72 on: 23 April 2017, 19:38:48 »
Can a torpedo be used?

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Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #73 on: 23 April 2017, 19:41:53 »
Can a torpedo be used?

TT

With "generic" nukes, it is up to players to decide the delivery method, figure if it is suitable.
Those LRMs we talked previously? They should fit to LRTs easily enough.

Provided it is acceptable that 8.3 kg projectile has 5.25kg warhead (at most) and the rest is the missile's shell and propulsion and still able to maintain 21 hex range.

glitterboy2098

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #74 on: 23 April 2017, 19:42:40 »
It helps Davy Crockett-M weighs 5 times as much as normal Arrow IV.
A launcher can actually fire heavier missile than it should due these rules oddities.

How about AC/20 nuclear shell that weighs one ton (ie one shot per ton)?
Assume Tech C warhead, so 15+(yield*2) kg weight... We can easily fit larger warhead than the Davy Crockett to this shell. Say, 250kt.

something like an AC20 would be pretty suicidal. ideally you want range, minimize the effects on the firing unit. thus why we looked at LRM's instead of SRM's

Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #75 on: 23 April 2017, 19:45:43 »
something like an AC20 would be pretty suicidal. ideally you want range, minimize the effects on the firing unit. thus why we looked at LRM's instead of SRM's

I picked the AC/20 just for an example's sake.

Also, if we go with custom nukes, i'm sure custom units are acceptable. (I was thinking max hardened armor, torso-mounted cockpit, some armored components, AC/20, maximum stealth systems. Ambush, point-blank nuke, survive.)

Liam's Ghost

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #76 on: 23 April 2017, 21:09:04 »
Another thing to keep in mind when talking about nuclear munitions, it is not unusual for specialty ammo to reduce the number of shots per ton you receive, so the mass of a single LRM or SRM (or other munition) is pretty flexible. I'm guessing anything up to 2 kilotons (6 kilograms of mass) might be fair game, though obviously survivability becomes an issue around 0.05 kilotons and above.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #77 on: 23 April 2017, 22:35:36 »

and the distinction you make is kinda pointless

It's not just the power level at the fusion target that drives the size of an inertial confinement (pure laser-driven) fusion trigger.  It's the way in which that power is delivered.  In the case of NIF, 192 beams have to converge on the target from 192 different directions within picoseconds of each other, and the size, focus, and power levels of those 192 beams have to be coordinated and balanced with insane precision.  If not, various instabilities (Richtmeyer-Meshkov, Rayleigh-Taylor, etc.) develop in the target that prevent it from fusing.  NIF and every other ICF experiment has failed to achieve ignition for these reasons.

Quote
the main reason it is so bulky is because these systems require great bulk (it uses Xenon flashbulbs for the initial laser pulse.. it's not even solid state like the LaWS!)

This is apples and oranges.  The types and the precision of the lasers needed to punch a hole in some thin aluminum flying through the air are radically different from the types and the precision of the lasers needed to compress light atomic nuclei until they fuse.  It's like comparing my driving glasses to an electron microscope.  Or the accuracy of a handgun at 10 yards to the accuracy of orbit insertion by a spacecraft at Mars starting from Earth.  Completely understates the problem.

(Disclosure:  Many moon ago, I worked on a project involving solid state lasers for space launch, which, although tougher than shooting down UAVs, was still many orders of magnitude easier than fusing atomic nuclei.)

Quote
it also wastes a ridiculous amount of power in converting frequencies.. they start with IR but have to convert it to UV.

I'm sure the folks at Lawrence Livermore would love to hear from you about their various inefficiencies and your ideas for scaling down their multi-football field-sized facility while maintaining the precision needed to achieve laser ICF.  ::)

Quote
with BT technology you can make a solid state UV beam generator able to produce a one time pulse of that power fairly easily.

We can't achieve pure laser-driven fusion -- inertial confinement fusion -- just by pointing a powerful enough laser at a target.  The resulting plasma just dissipates before the onslaught of the wavefront.  The target can't just be heated up; it has to be _inertially confined_ by the photons and compressed until the nuclei fuse.  That's what drives the multiple football field-sized devices and techniques used at NIF and other ICF sites.

Unless the physics of BT optics and nuclear fusion work differently (and they may), the same hurdles to achieving ICF (aka "laser-driven pure fusion"), nevertheless scaling it down from multi-football-field sized facilities to grenade-sized devices, would apply.

FWIW...
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #78 on: 23 April 2017, 22:38:03 »
A RL-10 weighs 500kg.
500/10=50kg per rocket.
Let's say 25kg per rocket, the rest is launcher mechanism.
And let's say the warhead weights 6 kg or so...
Yeah, i'd say nuclear rockets are possible.

Life is cheap,
BattleMechs aren't...

... But nukes are even cheaper than life!
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Liam's Ghost

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #79 on: 23 April 2017, 23:38:58 »
Unless the physics of BT optics and nuclear fusion work differently (and they may), the same hurdles to achieving ICF (aka "laser-driven pure fusion"), nevertheless scaling it down from multi-football-field sized facilities to grenade-sized devices, would apply.

It's been established multiple times in the fiction that battletech fusion isn't real world fusion.

It's also been established in the fiction that battletech fusion power has been scaled well below your multi-football field example (with robust field ready power generation as small as forty kilograms), so that example has never been relevant. Laser initiated fusion at the small scale has already been achieved.

It's further been established in the fiction that battletech lasers are significantly more compact, powerful, and generally advanced than real world lasers. So that's also irrelevant.

It's time to let it go.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #80 on: 24 April 2017, 00:07:31 »
Life is cheap,
BattleMechs aren't...

... But nukes are even cheaper than life!
And that's how you get Bolo, ladies and gentlemen. 
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #81 on: 24 April 2017, 00:58:05 »
It's also been established in the fiction that battletech fusion power has been scaled well below your multi-football field example

Of the magnetic confinement flavor, sure.

Quote
Laser initiated fusion at the small scale has already been achieved.

Is there an explicit reference to small-scale inertial confinement fusion by the 22nd-century (by when the "Elias" nuke grenade is used) in the canon?

Quote
It's further been established in the fiction that battletech lasers are significantly more compact, powerful, and generally advanced than real world lasers.

I guess all I can say is reread my post directly prior or read up on ICF.  Laser power isn't the only issue driving the size of ICF facilities.

As with any fictional universe, there is a certain amount of angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin here.

But if you're seeking realism over rule of cool, I'd just advise that:  1) a D-T target will not fuse when shot by the equivalent of a laser pistol, no matter how arbitrarily high-powered and compact, and 2) for nuclear grenades by the 22nd-century, the leap from 20th-century backpack-sized fission warheads is a lot smaller than the leap from 20th-century football field-sized fusion facilities.

Of course, whatever works for your head-cannon.  YMMV and all that.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #82 on: 24 April 2017, 01:01:04 »

I'm sure this is urban legend/propaganda and that something got lost in the translation on top of that.  But a fun read nonetheless:

http://www.pravdareport.com/science/tech/19-11-2014/129079-atomic_bullets-0/

FWIW...
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Liam's Ghost

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #83 on: 24 April 2017, 01:16:56 »
So, you're of the opinion that a sustained, contained, long term fusion reaction is somehow easier in a small package than a momentary fusion event? Or are you moving the goal posts by saying you're only referring to a specific type of fusion?

Because battletech fusion (ALL battletech fusion) is specifically a form of protium fusion that is specifically mentioned as being impossible in real world science.

Is there an explicit reference to small-scale inertial confinement fusion by the 22nd-century (by when the "Elias" nuke grenade is used) in the canon?

There is a specific reference to a small scale fusion reaction by the 22nd century in Canon. It's called the Elias. And once again, you're moving the goal post, since this argument started in reference to a 6 kilogram nuclear weapon built for the current battletech era, not the Elias.

Though either way, both are pure fusion weapons. There are multiple references indicating that battletech nuclear weapons are pure fusion weapons. Do you have any canon reference to the contrary? Because you're the one who originally insisted that "fusion" didn't mean fusion. You're the one pushing headcanon.

Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

ActionButler

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #84 on: 24 April 2017, 18:17:27 »
[copper] Alright, friends, lets all take a deep breath and step back for a second before anyone says something that they can't take back.  This has been an interesting thread so far, nobody wants to see a discussion break down into an argument.  [copper]
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haesslich

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #85 on: 24 April 2017, 21:21:59 »
When I think "pocket nuke", I think of the Fallout series. And nuclear tipped Thunderbolt missiles (since I'm not sure if going RL or the BT sized missiles, all of which seem to be fluffed as being smaller  than  modern man-packed antitank weapons like the Javelin or Spike.

Would 3-4Kg be too heavy to be the smallest sized warhead that doesn't require SL-level technologies to implement?

worktroll

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #86 on: 25 April 2017, 07:34:54 »
Without SL tech, you're talking fission implosion - either straight, or as a primary for a fission 'head. You can get initiation with less than a critical mass thanks to the power of HE, but there's a tradeoff in terms of more weight of HE than you save in Pu.

The W54 came in as a fully functional physics package at 23kg. Without invoking SL-era tech, I'd allow that to drop to 10kg for a fission package that's been extensively refined & tested for some time, with new but non-magical explosives. Below that, you're talking SL magitech.

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