Author Topic: "Pocket nuke" How big?  (Read 10337 times)

Cryhavok101

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #60 on: 23 April 2017, 14:37:10 »
Interesting idea:

Thunderbolt-10 ammo is 167 kg each. Small support vehicles can be designed at 100 kg or higher... you could just design your own small support vehicle "ammo" for a thunderbolt-10. You could design it with the fuel and range you want, and the nuclear payload you want. Make it robotic of course.

Maingunnery

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #61 on: 23 April 2017, 14:40:57 »
Personally, I prefer the 0.01 kiloton warhead I posited earlier. It may only be 2 points per warhead, but each one also forces a roll on the secondary effect table, with a one in six chance of killing a mech outright regardless of damage.
Mmm..... O yes the SECONDARY NUCLEAR EFFECTS TABLE.

A nerf to, one roll per turn, will be needed to reduce the number of rolls.
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ColBosch

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #62 on: 23 April 2017, 14:50:49 »
Bosch, we've certainly  8) let the Genie out of the bottle  8)

YEEEEAHHH!

Mmm..... O yes the SECONDARY NUCLEAR EFFECTS TABLE.

A nerf to, one roll per turn, will be needed to reduce the number of rolls.

See above, re: smiling and eye contact. If the table isn't flipped before I get to the SECOND salvo of LRMs, then I've done something wrong.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #63 on: 23 April 2017, 14:54:10 »
See above, re: smiling and eye contact. If the table isn't flipped before I get to the SECOND salvo of LRMs, then I've done something wrong.

I think most tables would be flipped the moment you said "nuclear LRMs".

This is why I usually game on floors.
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Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #64 on: 23 April 2017, 14:56:59 »
How about nuclear HVAC/2 ammo?

cornmoggler

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #65 on: 23 April 2017, 15:41:59 »
Literally laughed out loud at that, everyone where i am is starting at me like a loon.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #66 on: 23 April 2017, 16:21:52 »
How about nuclear HVAC/2 ammo?
Nuclear gauss rounds?  Or would the magnetic acceleration screw the physics package, possibly causing a nuclear misfire?
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Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #67 on: 23 April 2017, 16:47:52 »
Nuclear gauss rounds?  Or would the magnetic acceleration screw the physics package, possibly causing a nuclear misfire?
Rules-wise, this should be possible. But i didn't suggest Gauss rounds because canonically they're solid slugs, not explosive-filled shells. And between this and them already being powerful, converting them for delivering nukes doesn't seem to be particularly practical.
And HVAC/2 has the longest range of all direct-fire weapons, just behind ELRMs.

EDIT Not sure what happens when the physics package is subjected to intense magnetic fields Gauss weapons have. Might not have any effect assuming it is properly shielded. I have vague recollection of the US Navy or whoever was developing that railgun is seeking a guidance system for the projectiles. If that can be done, i'd imagine you could add something else to Gauss slugs as well. (Of course rail and Gauss guns are different things really, so, again, not sure about this.)
« Last Edit: 23 April 2017, 16:51:49 by Empyrus »

glitterboy2098

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #68 on: 23 April 2017, 17:17:25 »
don't we have mention of nuclear Thumper artillery rounds?


Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #69 on: 23 April 2017, 18:05:25 »
Pretty sure only the Long Tom and Arrow IV have official nuclear warheads.
Which kinda ruins that one Regulan Grand Titan that was fluffed as firing nuclear shells (with... Sniper, i think?), officially it can't do that.

glitterboy2098

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #70 on: 23 April 2017, 19:10:23 »
that was the one i was thinking..

even if we do not have official stats, i'm sure ones could be made. after all, if an LRM can carry a .01kiloton warhead, surely a Thumper or Sniper round could carry something even more lethal.

Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #71 on: 23 April 2017, 19:29:02 »
It helps Davy Crockett-M weighs 5 times as much as normal Arrow IV.
A launcher can actually fire heavier missile than it should due these rules oddities.

How about AC/20 nuclear shell that weighs one ton (ie one shot per ton)?
Assume Tech C warhead, so 15+(yield*2) kg weight... We can easily fit larger warhead than the Davy Crockett to this shell. Say, 250kt.

truetanker

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #72 on: 23 April 2017, 19:38:48 »
Can a torpedo be used?

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Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #73 on: 23 April 2017, 19:41:53 »
Can a torpedo be used?

TT

With "generic" nukes, it is up to players to decide the delivery method, figure if it is suitable.
Those LRMs we talked previously? They should fit to LRTs easily enough.

Provided it is acceptable that 8.3 kg projectile has 5.25kg warhead (at most) and the rest is the missile's shell and propulsion and still able to maintain 21 hex range.

glitterboy2098

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #74 on: 23 April 2017, 19:42:40 »
It helps Davy Crockett-M weighs 5 times as much as normal Arrow IV.
A launcher can actually fire heavier missile than it should due these rules oddities.

How about AC/20 nuclear shell that weighs one ton (ie one shot per ton)?
Assume Tech C warhead, so 15+(yield*2) kg weight... We can easily fit larger warhead than the Davy Crockett to this shell. Say, 250kt.

something like an AC20 would be pretty suicidal. ideally you want range, minimize the effects on the firing unit. thus why we looked at LRM's instead of SRM's

Empyrus

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #75 on: 23 April 2017, 19:45:43 »
something like an AC20 would be pretty suicidal. ideally you want range, minimize the effects on the firing unit. thus why we looked at LRM's instead of SRM's

I picked the AC/20 just for an example's sake.

Also, if we go with custom nukes, i'm sure custom units are acceptable. (I was thinking max hardened armor, torso-mounted cockpit, some armored components, AC/20, maximum stealth systems. Ambush, point-blank nuke, survive.)

Liam's Ghost

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #76 on: 23 April 2017, 21:09:04 »
Another thing to keep in mind when talking about nuclear munitions, it is not unusual for specialty ammo to reduce the number of shots per ton you receive, so the mass of a single LRM or SRM (or other munition) is pretty flexible. I'm guessing anything up to 2 kilotons (6 kilograms of mass) might be fair game, though obviously survivability becomes an issue around 0.05 kilotons and above.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #77 on: 23 April 2017, 22:35:36 »

and the distinction you make is kinda pointless

It's not just the power level at the fusion target that drives the size of an inertial confinement (pure laser-driven) fusion trigger.  It's the way in which that power is delivered.  In the case of NIF, 192 beams have to converge on the target from 192 different directions within picoseconds of each other, and the size, focus, and power levels of those 192 beams have to be coordinated and balanced with insane precision.  If not, various instabilities (Richtmeyer-Meshkov, Rayleigh-Taylor, etc.) develop in the target that prevent it from fusing.  NIF and every other ICF experiment has failed to achieve ignition for these reasons.

Quote
the main reason it is so bulky is because these systems require great bulk (it uses Xenon flashbulbs for the initial laser pulse.. it's not even solid state like the LaWS!)

This is apples and oranges.  The types and the precision of the lasers needed to punch a hole in some thin aluminum flying through the air are radically different from the types and the precision of the lasers needed to compress light atomic nuclei until they fuse.  It's like comparing my driving glasses to an electron microscope.  Or the accuracy of a handgun at 10 yards to the accuracy of orbit insertion by a spacecraft at Mars starting from Earth.  Completely understates the problem.

(Disclosure:  Many moon ago, I worked on a project involving solid state lasers for space launch, which, although tougher than shooting down UAVs, was still many orders of magnitude easier than fusing atomic nuclei.)

Quote
it also wastes a ridiculous amount of power in converting frequencies.. they start with IR but have to convert it to UV.

I'm sure the folks at Lawrence Livermore would love to hear from you about their various inefficiencies and your ideas for scaling down their multi-football field-sized facility while maintaining the precision needed to achieve laser ICF.  ::)

Quote
with BT technology you can make a solid state UV beam generator able to produce a one time pulse of that power fairly easily.

We can't achieve pure laser-driven fusion -- inertial confinement fusion -- just by pointing a powerful enough laser at a target.  The resulting plasma just dissipates before the onslaught of the wavefront.  The target can't just be heated up; it has to be _inertially confined_ by the photons and compressed until the nuclei fuse.  That's what drives the multiple football field-sized devices and techniques used at NIF and other ICF sites.

Unless the physics of BT optics and nuclear fusion work differently (and they may), the same hurdles to achieving ICF (aka "laser-driven pure fusion"), nevertheless scaling it down from multi-football-field sized facilities to grenade-sized devices, would apply.

FWIW...
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #78 on: 23 April 2017, 22:38:03 »
A RL-10 weighs 500kg.
500/10=50kg per rocket.
Let's say 25kg per rocket, the rest is launcher mechanism.
And let's say the warhead weights 6 kg or so...
Yeah, i'd say nuclear rockets are possible.

Life is cheap,
BattleMechs aren't...

... But nukes are even cheaper than life!
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Liam's Ghost

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #79 on: 23 April 2017, 23:38:58 »
Unless the physics of BT optics and nuclear fusion work differently (and they may), the same hurdles to achieving ICF (aka "laser-driven pure fusion"), nevertheless scaling it down from multi-football-field sized facilities to grenade-sized devices, would apply.

It's been established multiple times in the fiction that battletech fusion isn't real world fusion.

It's also been established in the fiction that battletech fusion power has been scaled well below your multi-football field example (with robust field ready power generation as small as forty kilograms), so that example has never been relevant. Laser initiated fusion at the small scale has already been achieved.

It's further been established in the fiction that battletech lasers are significantly more compact, powerful, and generally advanced than real world lasers. So that's also irrelevant.

It's time to let it go.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #80 on: 24 April 2017, 00:07:31 »
Life is cheap,
BattleMechs aren't...

... But nukes are even cheaper than life!
And that's how you get Bolo, ladies and gentlemen. 
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #81 on: 24 April 2017, 00:58:05 »
It's also been established in the fiction that battletech fusion power has been scaled well below your multi-football field example

Of the magnetic confinement flavor, sure.

Quote
Laser initiated fusion at the small scale has already been achieved.

Is there an explicit reference to small-scale inertial confinement fusion by the 22nd-century (by when the "Elias" nuke grenade is used) in the canon?

Quote
It's further been established in the fiction that battletech lasers are significantly more compact, powerful, and generally advanced than real world lasers.

I guess all I can say is reread my post directly prior or read up on ICF.  Laser power isn't the only issue driving the size of ICF facilities.

As with any fictional universe, there is a certain amount of angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin here.

But if you're seeking realism over rule of cool, I'd just advise that:  1) a D-T target will not fuse when shot by the equivalent of a laser pistol, no matter how arbitrarily high-powered and compact, and 2) for nuclear grenades by the 22nd-century, the leap from 20th-century backpack-sized fission warheads is a lot smaller than the leap from 20th-century football field-sized fusion facilities.

Of course, whatever works for your head-cannon.  YMMV and all that.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #82 on: 24 April 2017, 01:01:04 »

I'm sure this is urban legend/propaganda and that something got lost in the translation on top of that.  But a fun read nonetheless:

http://www.pravdareport.com/science/tech/19-11-2014/129079-atomic_bullets-0/

FWIW...
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Liam's Ghost

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #83 on: 24 April 2017, 01:16:56 »
So, you're of the opinion that a sustained, contained, long term fusion reaction is somehow easier in a small package than a momentary fusion event? Or are you moving the goal posts by saying you're only referring to a specific type of fusion?

Because battletech fusion (ALL battletech fusion) is specifically a form of protium fusion that is specifically mentioned as being impossible in real world science.

Is there an explicit reference to small-scale inertial confinement fusion by the 22nd-century (by when the "Elias" nuke grenade is used) in the canon?

There is a specific reference to a small scale fusion reaction by the 22nd century in Canon. It's called the Elias. And once again, you're moving the goal post, since this argument started in reference to a 6 kilogram nuclear weapon built for the current battletech era, not the Elias.

Though either way, both are pure fusion weapons. There are multiple references indicating that battletech nuclear weapons are pure fusion weapons. Do you have any canon reference to the contrary? Because you're the one who originally insisted that "fusion" didn't mean fusion. You're the one pushing headcanon.

Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

ActionButler

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #84 on: 24 April 2017, 18:17:27 »
[copper] Alright, friends, lets all take a deep breath and step back for a second before anyone says something that they can't take back.  This has been an interesting thread so far, nobody wants to see a discussion break down into an argument.  [copper]
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haesslich

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #85 on: 24 April 2017, 21:21:59 »
When I think "pocket nuke", I think of the Fallout series. And nuclear tipped Thunderbolt missiles (since I'm not sure if going RL or the BT sized missiles, all of which seem to be fluffed as being smaller  than  modern man-packed antitank weapons like the Javelin or Spike.

Would 3-4Kg be too heavy to be the smallest sized warhead that doesn't require SL-level technologies to implement?

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Re: "Pocket nuke" How big?
« Reply #86 on: 25 April 2017, 07:34:54 »
Without SL tech, you're talking fission implosion - either straight, or as a primary for a fission 'head. You can get initiation with less than a critical mass thanks to the power of HE, but there's a tradeoff in terms of more weight of HE than you save in Pu.

The W54 came in as a fully functional physics package at 23kg. Without invoking SL-era tech, I'd allow that to drop to 10kg for a fission package that's been extensively refined & tested for some time, with new but non-magical explosives. Below that, you're talking SL magitech.

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