Author Topic: Just checking how you include Command units into SBF & ACS  (Read 2919 times)

theagent

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Ok, I understand how you use the Alpha Strike stats to build your SBF & ACS Units, & from their build your standard SBF Formations, ACS Combat Teams, ACS Combat Units, & ACS Formations.  And they make sense for the majority of units out there...you know, the ones where 1 Regiment = 3 Battalions = 9 Companies = 27 Lances = 108 BattleMechs, etc.

But what about units that don't conform to those rules? 

For example, the CCAF (Field Manual: CCAF, p. 32) is specifically stated as having Regiments comprised of 3 "standard" Battalions, plus a separate Command Company.  Now, the Regiment is obviously meant to be an ACS Formation, & each of those Battalions is obviously an ACS Combat Unit (3 Companies/ACS Combat Teams, each comprised of 12 BattleMechs/Elements)...but what about the separate Command Company?  Would you attach the company to one of the Battalions/ACS Combat Units, so that your ACS Formation still has only 3 Combat Units in it?  Or do you convert the Command Company/Combat Team into a separate Combat Unit, so that your Regiment/Combat Unit now has 4 Combat Units, so that the Command Company would be able to operate independently?

A similar example is found with your 'typical' mercenary force (Field Manual: Mercenaries, p. 30).  In this case, Battalions add a Command Lance to their 3 Companies, & their Regiments add another Command Lance to their 3 Battalions.  Again, would you simply tack those lances onto one of the line Companies/Battalions, or would you convert them up the chain from ACS Unit --> ACS Combat Team --> ACS Combat Unit (although even an Assault-class Command Lance is going to look mighty wimpy)?

Or am I making a mountain out of a molehill here?

Alexander Knight

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Re: Just checking how you include Command units into SBF & ACS
« Reply #1 on: 21 April 2017, 18:47:10 »
There's no set way to do it, really.

For battalion command lances, the best way would probably be to attach it to one of the companies, for a 4-lance company.

Command companies, otoh, are large enough that you should probably convert it into a separate combat unit.

Just my opinions, YMMV.

Vulp

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Re: Just checking how you include Command units into SBF & ACS
« Reply #2 on: 21 April 2017, 22:07:33 »
I've wondered the same thing in the past.

The published ACS stats in Campaign Ops and 1st Succession War don't seem to take into account battalion command lances or command companies.  There is a statement in Interstellar Ops on page 348 of IO "In terms of combat units, BattleMech and combat vehicle regiments have a base of 108 units."

What about the "support" units that are usually held at the regimental layer? In the old 4th succession war Atlas books, there was often a wing of aerospace, some artillery, a bit of light armor, and/or some security infantry at regimental layer.  Are there any published ACS stats that currently take HQ / support units into account?

Alexander Knight

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Re: Just checking how you include Command units into SBF & ACS
« Reply #3 on: 21 April 2017, 22:31:58 »
Currently, no.  The 4th SW Atlas unit lists can be assumed to have elements from other parts of the combat command to fill out the support battalion.

That said, it's certainly possible to convert the old BF1 lists into modern ACS stats.

The Purist

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Re: Just checking how you include Command units into SBF & ACS
« Reply #4 on: 22 April 2017, 13:12:23 »
We've gone with standard battalions in most regiments in commands. Special house units can tweaked with 'ground up' ACS stats, such as the 2nd Guards (Marik; 3025) who have 3 battalions of mechs and a "mixed" battalion in the regiment. The stats are there to build the special add on features if you like.

If you want to, add the command lance to one company in each battalion and note the different stats. You could also attach the reg't cmd coy to a battalion for a fourth coy (reinforced bn). Or,.... break up the cmd coy into lances and stiffen a few more coys. The system is flexible enough for some non-canon tweaks if you don't mind the paperwork. :o)

Mercenary units are not 'normal' as almost all the sources, old and new, have non-standard units and formations. Take for example Wolf's Dragoon's Special Recon Group in the late 3rd Succession War period. It has what amounts to light mech coy plus a mixed conventional force company that could make a small (understrength) ACS Recon Unit. The Eridani Light Horse have some interesting lances that make even more interesting coys and battalions (the actual stats are around here some where in a psot from early 2016, I think). I think Alexander Knight did the work up.

Cheers.

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Alexander Knight

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Re: Just checking how you include Command units into SBF & ACS
« Reply #5 on: 22 April 2017, 17:32:38 »
The Eridani Light Horse have some interesting lances that make even more interesting coys and battalions (the actual stats are around here some where in a post from early 2016, I think). I think Alexander Knight did the work up.

Cheers.

That I did.  I'm always happy to help with other unit formations if asked.

The Purist

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Re: Just checking how you include Command units into SBF & ACS
« Reply #6 on: 23 April 2017, 11:06:15 »
I was thinking more today about the 48 Element battalion limit. To be honest, in my opinion I do not see a problem with a reinforced battalion possessing 52 or 56 Element - provided the option isn't abused. If limited to special mercenary or house units and supply costs are adjusted it shouldn't be problem.

For example, if a reinforced battalion of four coys of 12 mechs had a command land lance to make 52 Elements it is roughly 30% larger than a standard 40 mech battalion (cmd lance assumed). The ISaW cost (or other campaign supply/maintenance costs) could be bumped up to +50% as inefficiencies/wastage creep into the strained supply chain.

If anyone has calculated the normal supply cost for a normal House army in ISaW, you will quickly see how much that additional 50% can effect the disposable income. A mech regiment in combat costs 8RP, add 50% to make it 12 RP for a reinforced regiment (or portion thereof for specific battalions) and the costs speak for themselves.

In our game we are already considering labelling the standard Sword of Light regiments "reinforced" and costing 33% more to supply. The same would apply for other reinforced house regiments found in the 3025 deployments. A truly "reinforced" SoL regiment would be positively horrendous to supply in ISaW.

Example:

Standard Sword of Light regiment combat supply - 8 RP x 1.33 = 10.64 (FRN = 11 RP)

Reinforced Sword of Light regiment combat supply - (8 RP x 1.33) x 1.5 = 15.96 (FRN = 16 RP)

True you have four battalions of 52 mechs plus a command coy for a potential 220 mechs but the cost is considerable. Add in the extra RPs to keep these powerful battalions up to strength and the bleeding becomes noticeable.

To date our Dragon has not reinforced any of his SoL regiment beyond the 3025 statistics.
« Last Edit: 23 April 2017, 11:09:57 by The Purist »
Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought upon the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

"...Remember also the two "prime directives" in playing BattleTech:
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2. DON'T LET YOURSELF GET SO CAUGHT UP IN THE RULES THAT YOU STOP HAVING FUN"
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theagent

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Re: Just checking how you include Command units into SBF & ACS
« Reply #7 on: 29 April 2017, 04:45:42 »
There's no set way to do it, really.

For battalion command lances, the best way would probably be to attach it to one of the companies, for a 4-lance company.

Command companies, otoh, are large enough that you should probably convert it into a separate combat unit.

Just my opinions, YMMV.

That would probably work.  Just to make sure it worked & my math worked out, I tested building a generic heavy LCAF battalion (1 Medium/1 Heavy/1 Assault Company) paired with a Heavy Command Lance, the first time treating the Command Lance as a separate ACS Combat Team, & the 2nd time treating it as a 4th lance attached to the Assault Company (under the assumption that the Battalion CO would most likely stay near his heaviest, & most likely slowest, unit, particularly given the LCAF's fondness for heavy & assault 'Mechs); in both cases, the final ACS Combat Unit stats were identical.  Since I don't think you can target specific Combat Units in an ACS Formation, it's probably easier to just include the lance with 1 of the companies for calculation purposes.

Currently, no.  The 4th SW Atlas unit lists can be assumed to have elements from other parts of the combat command to fill out the support battalion.

That said, it's certainly possible to convert the old BF1 lists into modern ACS stats.

Yeah, the only tricky thing would be on the vehicle side -- not the actual "armor" units, but those "V1" & "V2" platoons that are really just unarmored "supply trucks".

As an example, here's what I came up with for the 4th Deneb Light Cavalry:
  • 1st Battalion (Assault Battalion)
    • 1st Company (Heavy Company, 3 Heavy Lances, plus Heavy Command Lance):  Type BM; Size 3; Move 4; Transport MP NA; Jump 1; TMM 1; Armor 17; Short 5, Medium 5, Long 5, E (Aero) 1; none; Skill level 3; PV 196 (SBF)/65 (ACS)
    • 2nd Company (Assault Company, 3 Assault Lances):  Type BM; Size 4; Move 4; Transport MP NA; Jump 0; TMM 1; Armor 17; Short 5, Medium 5, Long 4, E (Aero) 1; FLK1; Skill level 2; PV 207 (SBF)/69 (ACS)
    • 3rd Company (Assault Company, 3 Assault Lances):  Type BM; Size 4; Move 4; Transport MP NA; Jump 0; TMM 1; Armor 17; Short 5, Medium 5, Long 4, E (Aero) 1; FLK1; Skill level 2; PV 207 (SBF)/69 (ACS)
    • Battalion Total (ACS Combat Unit):  Type BM; Size 4; Move 4; Transport MP NA; TMM 1; Armor 51; Short 15, Medium 15, Long 13, E (Aero) 3; none; Skill level 3; Tactics 5; Morale 6; PV 203
    • Notes:  The Long & E attack values include the extra +1 from the IF1 ability (each lance had IF1 per Campaign Operations p. 94).  Not sure what happened to the FLK ability; Campaign Operations doesn't list it for the Assault 'Mech Battalion/ACS Combat Unit, even though the Battalions/Combat Teams get it.  PV includes the modifier for the Skill level (x1.2 for 1st Company, x1.4 for 2nd & 3rd Companies).
  • 2nd Battalion (Light Battalion)
    • 1st Company (Light Company, 3 Light Lances plus Medium Command Lance):  Type BM; Size 1; Move 6; Transport MP NA; Jump 2; TMM 2; Armor 11; Short 4, Medium 4, Long 0, E (Aero) --; RCN; Skill level 3; PV 132 (SBF)/44 (ACS)
    • 2nd Company (Light Company, 3 Light Lances):  Type BM; Size 1; Move 6; Transport MP NA; Jump 2; TMM 2; Armor 8; Short 3, Medium 3, Long 0, E (Aero) --; RCN; Skill level 3; PV 93 (SBF)/31 (ACS)
    • 3rd Company (Light Company, 3 Light Lances):  Type BM; Size 1; Move 6; Transport MP NA; Jump 2; TMM 2; Armor 8; Short 3, Medium 3, Long 0, E (Aero) --; RCN; Skill level 3; PV 93 (SBF)/31 (ACS)
    • Battalion Total (ACS Combat Unit):  Type BM; Size 1; Move 6; Transport MP NA; TMM 4; Armor 25; Short 10, Medium 10, Long 0, E (Aero) --; RCN; Skill level 3; Tactics 3; Morale 6; PV 106
    • Notes:  The TMM modifier for the ACS Combat Unit includes the Jump 2 (as each ACS Combat Team had a Jump 2).  PV includes the modifier for the Skill level (x1.2 for 1st Company, x1.4 for 2nd & 3rd Companies).
  • 3rd Battalion (Light Battalion)
    • 1st Company (Light Company, 3 Light Lances plus Medium Command Lance):  Type BM; Size 1; Move 6; Transport MP NA; Jump 2; TMM 2; Armor 11; Short 4, Medium 4, Long 0, E (Aero) --; RCN; PV 110 (SBF)/33 (ACS); Skill 4
    • 2nd Company (Light Company, 3 Light Lances):  Type BM; Size 1; Move 6; Transport MP NA; Jump 2; TMM 2; Armor 8; Short 3, Medium 3, Long 0, E (Aero) --; RCN; Skill level 3; PV 93 (SBF)/31 (ACS)
    • 3rd Company (Light Company, 3 Light Lances):  Type BM; Size 1; Move 6; Transport MP NA; Jump 2; TMM 2; Armor 8; Short 3, Medium 3, Long 0, E (Aero) --; RCN; Skill level 3; PV 108 (SBF)/36 (ACS)
    • Battalion Total (ACS Combat Unit):  Type BM; Size 1; Move 6; Transport MP NA; TMM 4; Armor 25; Short 10, Medium 10, Long 0, E (Aero) --; RCN; Skill level 3; Tactics 3; Morale 6; PV 100
    • Notes:  The TMM modifier for the ACS Combat Unit includes the Jump 2 (as each ACS Combat Team had a Jump 2).
  • Support Battalion
    • Security Company & Transport Elements (Foot Infantry Company with 3 Rifle Platoons, 4 Infantry Transport Lances):  Type V; Size 1; Move 6w; Transport MP NA; Jump 0; TMM 2; Armor 6; Short 2, Medium 0, Long 0, E (Aero) --; CAR9, IT8; Skill level 4; PV 51 (SBF)/17 (ACS)
    • Recon Company (Light Vehicle Company, 3 Light Lances):  Type V; Size 1; Move 8h; Transport MP NA; Jump NA; TMM 3; Armor 6; Short 2, Medium 3, Long 0, E (Aero) --; IT3, RCN; Skill level 3; PV 76 (SBF)/25 (ACS)
    • Air Squadron (Light Squadron, 3 Light Lances):  Type AS; Size 1; Move 10a; Transport MP NA; Jump NA; TMM 4; Armor 6; Short 1, Medium 1, Long 0, E (Aero) 0; BOMB1, FUEL20; Skill level 3; PV 47 (SBF)/16 (ACS)
    • Battalion Total (ACS Combat Unit):  Type V; Size 1; Move 6h; Transport MP NA; TMM 2; Armor 13; Short 3, Medium 4, Long 0, E (Aero) 0; BOMB1, FUEL20; Skill level 3; Tactics 3; Morale 6; PV 58
    • Notes:  With there not really being any "official" stats for "unarmed trucks & supply vehicles", I treated those 4 platoons as being the "Infantry Transport Lances" from Campaign Operations (p. 94).  Technically, the Transport Lances are part of the Regimental Battle Group (see below).  However, because their sole purpose is to transport infantry Elements, & the sole infantry Element is the Security Company (note that both the infantry company & each transport lance are at the same level, SBF Unit), I thought it best to combine them together to form a single SBF Formation/ACS Combat Team.  Note, however, that their is not quite enough transport for the infantry company (CAR9 is their requirement, but the lances only provide IT8).  I'm also not 100% comfortable with mixing these formations together, as they all provide different capabilities (the infantry provide security for the regiment's location, vs. front-line combat; the Recon Company will probably be used on its own, while the Air Squadron would be used to provide air support).  If you want them to be considered separate ACS Combat Units, the Recon Company & Air Squadron will have to divide their stats by 3 (i.e. Air Squadron would change to Armor 2, but would lose its ability to inflict damage except for the BOMB1 ability).
  • Regimental "Battle Group" [technically Regimental HQ]
    • BattleMech Command Demi-Company (2 Medium Lances):  Type BM; Size 2; Move 5; Transport MP NA; Jump 2; TMM 2; Armor 7; Short 2, Medium 1, Long 1, E (Aero) --; none; PV 90 (SBF)/30 (ACS); Skill 2
    • Artillery Battery (3 Artillery Platoons):  Type V; Size 2; Move 3t; Transport MP NA; Jump NA; TMM 1; Armor 10; Short 1, Medium 0, Long 0, E (Aero) --; ART-S4; PV 139 (SBF)/46 (ACS); Skill 3
    • Battle Group Total (ACS Combat Unit):  Type MX; Size 2; Move 4t; Transport MP NA; TMM 3; Armor 17; Short 3, Medium 1, Long 1, E (Aero) --; ART-S4; Skill 2; Tactics 4; Morale 5; PV 76
    • Notes:  The TMM modifier for the ACS Combat Unit includes the Jump 1 (2/3=0.667, rounded up to 1).  I'm not sure about rounding for the Skill level, either; 2+3=5; 5/2=2.5; not sure if it should round back up to 3 or down to 2.  Also, due to the Skill level adjustments, as well as the different Company/Battalion configurations (including the Command Lances), the 'Mech Battalions are much more powerful than their Campaign Operations equivalents
  • 4th Deneb Light Cavalry Regiment (ACS Formation):  Type Ground; Move 4; Skill level 3; Tactics 5; Morale 5
  • Notes:  Since 1st Battalion has the slowest Move, that's the Move I assigned to the Formation.  Interstellar Operations says the Formation's Morale is equal to that of "the Combat Unit with the lowest Morale value" (p. 330).  Since the Regimental Battle Group has the lowest Morale value (Morale 5), I used that one.