Author Topic: Recapture of Tikonov  (Read 5600 times)

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #30 on: 26 April 2017, 08:13:28 »
Actually yes I did.  In the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, you had the Isis - Sun-Tzu interactions hinting at closer ties between the FWL and the CC; after Candace kills Romano, Sun-Tzu talks about using Hanse Davion's own tactics and strategies against him and finally Sun-Tzu's message to Hanse Davion talking about his engagement and future marriage to Isis.  Remind you of anything?  Perhaps Hanse's marriage to Melissa?

Edit:  To be fair I thought that it would be bigger and last a little longer, perhaps not as big as Operation RAT, but I certainly expected the FWLM to devote more units to the invasion and at least TRY to retake all the worlds they lost in the 4SW not stop partway through.
I understood SteelRaven to be talking about single books rather than the meta-narrative.  I think we all knew Marik & Liao were getting closer and plotting something, but I don't think there was anything in Bred for War that'd would've led a reader to suspect Op GUERRERO was coming then and in that form, even though we got to see the perspective of some Marik agents that Victor didn't have access to.


...but, really?  From the little information in Lost Destiny, you extrapolated that the FWL & CC were going to launch a surprise attack, recoup all their losses in the 4th War, and form some sort of anti-FedCom?  Damn.  But no, Isis & Sun Tzu and the circumstances of their engagement don't really remind me of Hanse and Melissa any more than, say, Mary Davion and Soto Kurita.
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Archangel

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #31 on: 26 April 2017, 20:58:04 »
...but, really?  From the little information in Lost Destiny, you extrapolated that the FWL & CC were going to launch a surprise attack, recoup all their losses in the 4th War, and form some sort of anti-FedCom?  Damn.  But no, Isis & Sun Tzu and the circumstances of their engagement don't really remind me of Hanse and Melissa any more than, say, Mary Davion and Soto Kurita.

"FWL & CC were going to launch a surprise attack?"
-Yes, the exact form of the attack/invasion of which I wasn't sure about. Sun-Tzu clearly states that he will use Hanse's own tactics and strategies against him.  Edit:  Besides launching a surprise attack was keeping in how the BT universe works.

"recoup all their losses in the 4th War?"
-Most of them yes.  All of them probably not.  I did expect that the FWL would at least recoup all their losses seeing only a handful compared to the CC. (Note:  At the time the Clan invasion had already occurred so a large portion of the FedCom military was moved to the Clan front and away from their border with the FWL and CC.)

"form some sort of anti-FedCom?"
Technically that already existed and included the DC in the Concord of Kapteyn.  But no, I didn't expect them to form a unified state like the FedCom (nor was I imply that) given that the FWL and the CC had centuries of conflicts between the two of them compared to a mere handful of raids/skirmishes between the FS and LC.

Sun Tzu himself drew the parallel between his wedding and Hanse and Melissa's wedding in his personal message to Hanse Davion ("tradition you started with my grandfather" and "your conduct at the last wedding between two realms", BoK Lost Destiny, Ch 49).
« Last Edit: 26 April 2017, 21:05:57 by Archangel »
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Frogfoot

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #32 on: 28 April 2017, 18:48:17 »
Balance their wins. With a few losses.  Have Sun Stu actually make a mistake once in a while.

Well there was that time he had the CCAF chase George Hasek headlong all the way back to New Syrtis but left the back door unguarded, letting the WoB bite a huge chunk out of the CapCon. Come to think of it, allying with the WoB in the first place was a mistake. Then there was that time with GOLDEN FORTRESS in 3081 where the new Republic of the Sphere punished the Capellans for their Chancellor's hubris. We got a re-run of that later in the Capellan Crusades.

It's not like the CCAF's successes were all that spectacular either. Guerrero only reclaimed a tiny portion of lost Capellan worlds, and only then with the help of Marik mercs. Comparing the maps of 4SSW losses vs Guerrero gains, the Capellan showing in '57 is quite a pitiful riposte. St Ives War? It took the CCAF four years to grind down a tiny rogue province, and that was with the help of two Periphery armies. Pushing back the WoB during the Jihad was only possible due to the Blakists being engaged on all fronts. The Victoria world ended with the Capellans losing two factory worlds, one of which was a commonality capital, and were left with a shattered military for the gain of a handful of non-descript border worlds (though the CCAF did absolutely crush the Anduriens).

Really the only time I see the Capellans doing anything seriously impressive is at the 'current' point in the Dark Age timeline, where they're clearly rampant. But then that's not even Sun Tzu in charge, and I'm not betting against Julian Davion right now either.

Empyrus

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #33 on: 28 April 2017, 18:59:31 »
Yeah, betting against Julian is not necessarily wise.

Per TRO 3150, the FedSuns has counter-attacked the New Syrtis and recaptured it. And they're striking back at the Draconis Combine too.
I think i need to make thread for the post-3145 situation, TRO 3150 had a lot of interesting hints.

Orwell84

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #34 on: 29 April 2017, 16:40:54 »
Well there was that time he had the CCAF chase George Hasek headlong all the way back to New Syrtis but left the back door unguarded, letting the WoB bite a huge chunk out of the CapCon. Come to think of it, allying with the WoB in the first place was a mistake. Then there was that time with GOLDEN FORTRESS in 3081 where the new Republic of the Sphere punished the Capellans for their Chancellor's hubris. We got a re-run of that later in the Capellan Crusades.

It's not like the CCAF's successes were all that spectacular either. Guerrero only reclaimed a tiny portion of lost Capellan worlds, and only then with the help of Marik mercs. Comparing the maps of 4SSW losses vs Guerrero gains, the Capellan showing in '57 is quite a pitiful riposte. St Ives War? It took the CCAF four years to grind down a tiny rogue province, and that was with the help of two Periphery armies. Pushing back the WoB during the Jihad was only possible due to the Blakists being engaged on all fronts. The Victoria world ended with the Capellans losing two factory worlds, one of which was a commonality capital, and were left with a shattered military for the gain of a handful of non-descript border worlds (though the CCAF did absolutely crush the Anduriens).

Really the only time I see the Capellans doing anything seriously impressive is at the 'current' point in the Dark Age timeline, where they're clearly rampant. But then that's not even Sun Tzu in charge, and I'm not betting against Julian Davion right now either.

Prior to 3067 WoB was a legitimate faction and trading partner in the IS, in the eyes of at least two Houses and various other entities. IIRC some were please about that organisation splitting with ComStar, despite the religious trappings, because now there was a competitor in the HPG market. Handbook: House Liao describes how Sun-Tzu pitted the two orders against one another, to the CC's benefit, when he was laying the groundwork for Guerrero and Xin Sheng, so allying with WoB in itself wasn't a mistake. If he made any error, it was in not expecting WoB to hit another House capital or open a new front with his nation after he'd helped kill their beloved Star League.

I think Sun-Tzu's achievements are spectacular not because he made 4SW-style gains or had a flawless track record with his wars, but because he made any gains at all for the post-4SW CC and left the nation in a much stronger position despite his own follies. I don't see it as author fiat for the CC to have gained what it did in '57 and '63 when Sun Tzu did what any sane ruler would have: get his people's energies fired up in support of his goals, make alliances with states in a position to help him, and take advantage of his enemies' weaknesses at a time when he was numero duo on their threat list. Things certainly didn't go so rosily for him after '67, that's for sure.

That being said, Sun-Tzu taking Tikonov the way he did seemed a bit too clueless even for Victor. At the very least, dude, don't leave a die-hard Capellan unit on one of Sun-Tzu's primary objectives - send them to Pleiades to fight Taurians instead!
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Empyrus

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #35 on: 29 April 2017, 17:47:51 »
Victor must have been suffering from battle stress and had his already weak judgment impaired even further.

SteelRaven

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #36 on: 29 April 2017, 19:51:13 »
... and we are back to where we started.  #P
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ajcbm

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #37 on: 30 April 2017, 15:58:14 »
The Victoria War also saw the CapCon bailed out of the fire by the Magistracy. The CapCon couldn't push back a rogue March Lord without the help of the entire MAF. Going against the Republic in 3081 didn't work out so well, either.

It's worth noting that the taking Tikonov in '67 gave Sun Tzu a major industrial world that was located well behind FedSuns lines, and quickly blockaded on orders of New Syrtis. You see how this was a tremendous victory.

That rogue March Lord had a military equal in size to the entire CCAF. I suppose that was an improvement from the time the Capellan March Military, by itself, was twice the size of the CCAF.

JadedFalcon

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #38 on: 30 April 2017, 16:14:35 »
That rogue March Lord had a military equal in size to the entire CCAF. I suppose that was an improvement from the time the Capellan March Military, by itself, was twice the size of the CCAF.

Kinda says something about faction balancing in Battletech game development, don't it?

Øystein

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #39 on: 30 April 2017, 16:19:53 »
Kinda says something about faction balancing in Battletech game development, don't it?

The beauty of an evolving universe - faction balance is whatever the story dictates. It ebs and flows and no need for stupid "everyone must be equal" stuff.

Some factions rise, then fall. Others stumble or are brought down, maybe to never rise again.

Daryk

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #40 on: 30 April 2017, 16:24:32 »
It's a more accurate reflection of actual warfare.  If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, you've done something wrong.  At the strategic level, the "balancing" factor is overreach.  Consolidating gains takes time and effort that saps your ability to make further conquests.

JadedFalcon

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #41 on: 30 April 2017, 16:47:28 »
[...] whatever the story dictates.

Apologies for removing the context, but this is statement probably needs to show up in discussions like this. Particularly since the franchise is heavily story-based.

Øystein

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #42 on: 30 April 2017, 19:15:11 »
Apologies for removing the context, but this is statement probably needs to show up in discussions like this. Particularly since the franchise is heavily story-based.

A point I try to bring up whenever someone is crying about "Author fiat". Everything in BattleTech is "author fiat" - it is written and thought up by authors after all.
And even then are much more strange and wierd things happening in the real world that if we tried to pitch to be included, it would be shot down as being too far fetched or unbelievable. Fact is often stranger than fiction :D


MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #43 on: 30 April 2017, 19:35:04 »
The difference between fiction and real life is that fiction needs to make sense.

And we will complain when it doesn't.
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Flieger

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #44 on: 30 April 2017, 19:43:48 »
That rogue March Lord had a military equal in size to the entire CCAF.

How so? The FM:U says the whole AFFS had 66 regiments as of August 3067, the CCAF 42. And even if you counted every single unit in the March to Hasek's force - which is not the case - you don't get near the CCAF's strength.

SteelRaven

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #45 on: 30 April 2017, 20:21:38 »
If it helps, read the books as if it was the new season of Archer.

"Kathrine... Kathrine.... KATHRIIINE!"

"WHAT!"

"You and Vlad!? Seriously!? I need to tell you Sis, you are getting close to the..."

"Don't say it..."

"...Danger Zone!"

"...I hate you so much."
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #46 on: 30 April 2017, 20:41:57 »
How so? The FM:U says the whole AFFS had 66 regiments as of August 3067, the CCAF 42. And even if you counted every single unit in the March to Hasek's force - which is not the case - you don't get near the CCAF's strength.
I was just about to say that.  Might've been true in 3050.  Not true in '67.
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Archangel

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #47 on: 30 April 2017, 22:48:14 »
I was just about to say that.  Might've been true in 3050.  Not true in '67.

And even less so by the Victoria War.  During that conflict the CCAF didn't just face the forces from the Capellan March but forces from Andurien and Oriente as well and had to be concerned about Republic intervention as well.  Forces that could have been deployed against the rogue Duchess were tied up on those fronts whether defending the border, launching counter-strikes or keeping a wary eye on their neighbors.  And then of course there were the hidden units...
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Øystein

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #48 on: 02 May 2017, 12:15:56 »
The difference between fiction and real life is that fiction needs to make sense.

And we will complain when it doesn't.

Sorry but no, "you" will complain whenever the story doesn't go the way "you" want. Regardless of how logical it is and has been built up.
20 years of fan interaction has shown this extremely clearly.

Archangel

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #49 on: 02 May 2017, 15:10:15 »
The difference between fiction and real life is that fiction needs to make sense.

Since when?  All fiction needs to be is entertaining to those it was meant to appeal to - be it the general public or a sub-group thereof.  There is plenty of fiction that makes no sense and was never meant to.
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Ran Felsner

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #50 on: 02 May 2017, 16:32:51 »
As factions go, I will admit to heavily leaning in favor of the FedCom.  That said, the only way Sun Tzu maintains the gains he made in Op Guerrero is that Victor drops the ball.  I helped a friend who was hashing out a Brush Wars type supplement on OpGuerrero.  We talked about it often, when Victor states that Katherine doesn't want the Sarna March any more, he states that he doesn't want to abdicate his responsibility for it.  That being said, he then later states that he doesn't want to make the mistakes of his father, and decides he is going to dedicate himself to fighting the clans, because they are the biggest threat.
« Last Edit: 02 May 2017, 16:35:00 by Ran Felsner »

JadedFalcon

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #51 on: 02 May 2017, 19:17:47 »
As factions go, I will admit to heavily leaning in favor of the FedCom.  That said, the only way Sun Tzu maintains the gains he made in Op Guerrero is that Victor drops the ball.  I helped a friend who was hashing out a Brush Wars type supplement on OpGuerrero.  We talked about it often, when Victor states that Katherine doesn't want the Sarna March any more, he states that he doesn't want to abdicate his responsibility for it.  That being said, he then later states that he doesn't want to make the mistakes of his father, and decides he is going to dedicate himself to fighting the clans, because they are the biggest threat.

Will definitely agree that Victor seemed set on making all new mistakes. One of my problems with the Donner bombing was that the leaders of the Inner Sphere weren't anywhere near finished dragging him and Focht over the coals for letting the Word of Blake prosper. Was it someone on the boards here that pointed out Victor had issues with micromanagement, myopia, and refusing to delegate? Or was that actually stated in one of the game supplements?

The difference between fiction and real life is that fiction needs to make sense.

And we will complain when it doesn't.

Somewhere, J.J. Abrams is laughing while sitting on a obscenely large pile of money.  :(

SteelRaven

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #52 on: 02 May 2017, 23:10:50 »
Since when?  All fiction needs to be is entertaining to those it was meant to appeal to - be it the general public or a sub-group thereof.  There is plenty of fiction that makes no sense and was never meant to.
Entertainment value is a qestion of taste, I don't like Warhammer 40K but it has nothing to do with the quality of the writing.
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Archangel

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #53 on: 03 May 2017, 15:33:41 »
Entertainment value is a qestion of taste, I don't like Warhammer 40K but it has nothing to do with the quality of the writing.

Which is why I included the caveat "to those it was meant to appeal to" and why I said simply said entertaining rather than entertainment value.  There are plenty of examples of where the writing falls flat with the audience it was meant to appeal to or where they try to appeal to too many different groups with the resulting product appeals to no one.  If it is not entertaining to those it was meant to appeal to then its sales performance will more than likely be below expectations.  If the writing itself is bad then you will more than likely get horrendous  sales performances.
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ajcbm

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #54 on: 03 May 2017, 16:05:12 »
Realistically, Victor didn't need to retake the Sarna March. He could have delegated it to Duke Hasek before he left for the Clan Homeworlds. In 3059, the Capellan March military by itself was bigger and stronger than the CCAF.

The writers always sucked ass in making the AFFS so ridiculously powerful. They then twist themselves into a pretzel to justify when they lose.   

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #55 on: 03 May 2017, 16:25:22 »
In 3059, the Capellan March military by itself was bigger and stronger than the CCAF.

Source?
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #56 on: 03 May 2017, 17:04:24 »
Realistically, Victor didn't need to retake the Sarna March. He could have delegated it to Duke Hasek before he left for the Clan Homeworlds. In 3059, the Capellan March military by itself was bigger and stronger than the CCAF.

The writers always sucked ass in making the AFFS so ridiculously powerful. They then twist themselves into a pretzel to justify when they lose.
That's not true in 3050 (20 Year Update) or 3054 (Objective Raids).  I'd be interested to see your source.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #57 on: 03 May 2017, 17:21:22 »
Doing some quick research, it might be technically possible. The Capellan March had 44 regiments under arms as of 3061 (per shattered sphere). Which makes sense in a way, since the Capellans are the only really beligerent front the face at the time.  The Capellan Confederation, post St Ives War, had the same number. So they could have had fewer troops before that.

Though that's hardly definite, and EVEN SO, having a slim advantage in numbers is hardly an ideal reason to start a war with your Star League ally while your head of state, Marshal of the Armies, ten of your regiments, and an unspecified portion of your logistical network is busy elsewhere.

You also can't count on St Ives to do anything to support your (Candace has always been about maintaining an independent Capellan State).

Basically, we're talking about launching Operation Rat all over again, except this time facing a competent enemy actually being back backed by his ally in the Free Worlds League, right after you've signed an agreement to put aside centuries of warfare, and even had your head of state support that neighbor's leader as first lord.

Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #58 on: 03 May 2017, 19:12:48 »
The plan also requires Victor to delegate, so yeah, not going to happen.
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SteelRaven

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Re: Recapture of Tikonov
« Reply #59 on: 03 May 2017, 23:18:33 »
Just thinking, the OP has been answered. How long are we going to over analyze a plot point to a story for a table top war game with giant stompy robots?   
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