Author Topic: (Answered) Movement sequence, and other problems with dismounting  (Read 2838 times)

Alfaryn

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I assume, that units infantry carried inside Vehicles, Small Craft, DropShips etc. (everything, that has internal cargo capacity dedicated to units), are not included in a number of units to be moved in a turn, since the only thing they can do is dismount (pp. 224 - 226 TW), and that happens as a part of their carrier movement. Am I correct?

I assume it also apply to Mechanized Battle Armor carried by a 'Mech (pp. 226-228 TW), and infantry units, that begin movement phase already swarming a 'Mech? As I understand the rules Mechanized Battle Armor dismount as part of the 'Mech's movement, and swarming infantry may leave the 'Mech on their own only during Weapon Attack Phase (p. 220 TW), and if those units may be forced off their  'Mechs during Movement Phase - if the 'Mechs jump, fall or drop prone (pp. 222, 227 TW), they are not able to move or shoot for the rest of the turn (per p. 222 TW)?

Can an infantry unit that has been forced off a 'Mech perform an Anti-'Mech attack during the same turn? P. 222 TW says that they can't move or shoot, but do Anti-'Mech attacks count as shooting here? What if the infantry unit has been forced off a unit at the end of a Weapons Attack Phase (most likely, because the 'Mech failed a piloting skill check caused by damage received during the Phase)?

What about non-infantry units carried as cargo? I assume, that Fighters and Small Craft on a Large Craft that is airborne or in space are not counted to a number of units to be moved, because they are lunched at the end of their carrier's movement (p. 86 TW), but what about units dismounting landed DropShips (and Small Craft) (p. 91 TW). VTOL's, Small Craft and Fighters carried as cargo are removed during End Phase, but other units can dismount using half of their Walking/Cruising MP during movement phase. The rules also say to revisit the order of movement determined by Initiative as described on p. 39 (and 37), but when is this correction made - as soon, as a dismounting unit moves? When it's side finishes moving all units during given Move (that is - when one side finishes moving it's unit(s), and it is the other side's time to move - see example text on p. 39 TW)? When both sides finish their Move (that is - when the side, who won initiative finishes to move it's unit(s), and it is time to move initiative loser's units)? An example of how it works would be nice.

EDIT - After a little bit of thinking I came to a conclusion, that when ground units leave a DropShip or a Small Craft during Movement Phase you need to recalculate the number of units immediately. Otherwise if a side, that lost the initiative and has units to disembark from a DropShip or a Small Craft waits with it to the last possible moment during the Phase, you would get wired results (like initiative winner having to move his last unit before the looser does). Still - a confirmation, and removing ambiguity in the rules (either by rewording them, or by providing an example in the rules) would be nice, as would be clarification on p. 37 or 39 TW about whch units in general are counted when determining sequence during a phase (in particular - if units carried by other units as cargo are).

EDIT 2 - since pretty much all other dismounting/lunching etc. in TW, other then ground units leaving landed DropShips/Small Craft on p. 91 happens either at the end of the carrier's movement or outside of a movement phase (during end phase for unloading VTOLs and aerospace units from Small Craft and DropShips, during Weapons Attack Phase for swarming infantry voluntarily leaving a swarmed unit), or prohibits units, that leave their carrier from moving that turn (swarming infantry forced off a 'Mech), why not change the rules for dismounting non-VTOL/aerospace units from landed Small Craft/DropShips, so that it happens at the end of the carrier's movement. This way rules become simpler, and more consistent, and we don't have to explain how to recalculate number of units to move  under Unequal Number of Units (p. 39), since "new" unloaded units move "as a part of their carrier's movement". Essentially during Movement Phase a landed aerospace unit could Liftoff (p. 88), Taxi (p.88), unload some units (p. 91 and/or p. 225) or do nothing.

Extra question - can an aerospace taxi and unload units during the same turn?

-------------------------------

Finally - a couple of things I've noticed, while looking for answers to my questions in the rules, that may require an errata.

First - I've noticed, that most rules about dismounting units have been changed, so that dismounting infantry does not require spending movement points by the carrier (although mounting still does - see pp. 224 - 225), but on p. 207 it still says, that both mounting, and dismounting from support vehicles requires the carrier to spend movement points. This is especially confusing, because errata for Dismounting From Aerospace Carriers (p. 225) cuts the bit about not spending movement movement by the carrier, and as a result I don't know if a landed airspace unit treated like Support Vehicle for the purposes of dismounting infantry is supposed to spend MP (unlikely, since aerospace units don't really have MP), or dismounting should never require the carriers to spend MP, in which case section about dismounting on p. 207 requires an errata.

Second - about the rules for Dismounting [Infantry] From Aerospace Carriers (p. 225) I've mentioned above. What does it mean, that I should "use rules for vehicles, Large Support Vehicles or DropShips as appropriate"? What are "appropriate rules" for dismounting from Fighters and Small Craft (both of which may have infantry bays if I understand p. 239 TM correctly)? A clarification would be nice here.

EDIT - Huh? according to p. 239 TM only BattleMechs and ProtoMechs may not install transport bays (including infantry bays), but the sub-title on p. 195 TM says "Transport Bays and Doors (DropShips and Small Craft only)", so I don't know if Fighters cannot have Transport Bays and Doors or only Doors. I guess it is the latter, since p. 225 TW provides the rules for dismounting infantry from Conventional Fighters, so at least Conventional Fighters must be able to mount infantry bays. Looks like one more thing to clarify.
« Last Edit: 25 November 2018, 14:12:44 by Xotl »

Alfaryn

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Re: (Research) Movement sequence, and other problems with dismounting
« Reply #1 on: 02 October 2017, 22:52:26 »
Six month bump.

Alfaryn

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Re: (Research) Movement sequence, and other problems with dismounting
« Reply #2 on: 23 December 2017, 14:30:55 »
Bump.

Xotl

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Re: (Research) Movement sequence, and other problems with dismounting
« Reply #3 on: 25 November 2018, 14:12:37 »
I think p. 39 is adequate:

"If, prior to any pair of movement or attack declarations, one
team has at least twice as many units left to declare for as the
other team, the team with twice as many units declares for
two units rather than one."

So, you effectively examine the issue every time movement returns to the player who lost initiative.  And units have to exist in order to be declared to do anything.
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Alfaryn

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Re: (Answered) Movement sequence, and other problems with dismounting
« Reply #4 on: 25 November 2018, 22:17:25 »
Question is - do units carried as cargo count as existing for the purposes of this calculation? I feel like either answer could lead to problems, especially when there are big carriers capable of (dis)mounting many units per turn involved.
« Last Edit: 25 November 2018, 22:25:08 by Alfaryn »

Xotl

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Re: (Answered) Movement sequence, and other problems with dismounting
« Reply #5 on: 25 November 2018, 22:24:40 »
Nothing that is cargo has any effect on the battlefield unless specifically stated otherwise: in that sense it usually doesn't "exist".  A unit that is cargo must be deployed / unpacked / whatever according to the rules for that situation to first be relevant to a game.  In general, you follow the rules to change said unit from cargo to a unit, at which point it's a unit and affects the movement sequence as normal from that point forward.

Specifically, if a unit can deploy itself, it affects the sequence (because it has to be able to act to, well, act).  If a unit can't (meaning another unit deploys it), then it doesn't affect the sequence until it's been deployed.

I'm having a hard time following what the exact issue is.
« Last Edit: 25 November 2018, 22:32:31 by Xotl »
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Alfaryn

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Re: (Answered) Movement sequence, and other problems with dismounting
« Reply #6 on: 25 November 2018, 22:34:13 »
The issue is, that if you for example have a DropShip capable of deploying a lance or two of 'Mechs per turn for example, the player commanding the DropShip can wait until the end of turn to deploy them all if he won the initiative, or most of them if he lost, even if both players begin the turn with similar number of units on board (unloaded). It can be abused to get unfairly advantageous position with newly unloaded units - at least compared to the situation if all of those units began their round unloaded.

On the other hand if you did count all unloaded unit for the purposes of the initiative, you could use unloaded units (even those you couldn't unload this turn because of insufficient number of doors for example) as initiative sinks.

Example:

Situation 1:

Player A has 8 'Mechs on a board. Player B has 4 'Mechs on a board and a DropShip with 4 doors and 8 more 'Mechs in its bays. Player B wants to deploy 4 'Mechs from the DropShip, and will of course want to move his 'Mechs as late as possible.

Situation 2:

Player A has 8 'Mechs on a board. Player B has 8 'Mechs on a board and an empty DropShip.

No matter which side wins the initiative Player B will be able to move some of his 8 'Mechs that are or will end up on board by the end of the Movement Phase later in situation 1 than in situation 2. How late - depends on if we count unloaded units for purposes of the initiative or not.
« Last Edit: 25 November 2018, 22:53:51 by Alfaryn »

Xotl

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Re: (Answered) Movement sequence, and other problems with dismounting
« Reply #7 on: 25 November 2018, 22:46:50 »
We do not view this as a balance issue.  Following the first scenario, it's a very particular and limited advantage, of limited duration, rather than anything I would term "abuse".
« Last Edit: 25 November 2018, 22:53:28 by Xotl »
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Alfaryn

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Re: (Answered) Movement sequence, and other problems with dismounting
« Reply #8 on: 25 November 2018, 22:57:10 »
Ok, if this is the final word, then all that is left to do is to clarify in the manual that loaded units don't count for the purposes of the initiative as until they are deployed. An errata to p. 37 or 39 TW, perhaps? The rules don't seem explain it clearly right now, at least not to me. It is also not exactly a rare edge-case it comes out whenever you are playing with units-as-deployable-cargo.

And I do admit, that calling it "abuse" instead of a "potential balance issue" was probably going too far. Thanks for pointing it out to me. You were absolutely right about that.
« Last Edit: 26 November 2018, 12:11:37 by Alfaryn »

 

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