Mech of the Week: Great Wyrm

[Jellico]

It is worth remembering that the medium ranges of the CUAC/2 are the long ranges of the AC/2.

So 5 tons, 1 ton ammo, 1 ton DHS. Average 3 damage. 7 tons / 3 damage with a pulse bonus.

LRM5. 1 ton, 1 ton ammo, 1 ton DHD. Average damage 3. 3 tons / 3 damage.

Remembering that MPLs have a doubling of mass and slight range reduction the comparison isn't that bad.

I find UAC/2s to deliver  highly consistent damage and the Great Wyrm is a good inconsequential weight to carry them.

[Liam's Ghost]

I have this thought that's not particularly honorable, so maybe save it for bandit hunting, or fighting spheroids, or playing society (or Wolves)...

But pare the Great Wyrm with the Hunchback IIC, keeping the hunchie hidden behind cover. Try baiting in your enemy by annoying the hell out of them at long range. Or, you know, if they don't take the bait, chew on them from beyond their ability to respond until your ammo runs dry.

[Caedis Animus]

Bring an ammo truck and a second Great Wyrm, too, if you're gonna do that.

You know, so that the fun never ends.

[Iron Mongoose]

There's some commentary that the Ultra 2s on the Wyrm aren't really about damage.  Granted, I fueled some of that, and in a modern setting (espceally an early Dark Age setting, with mechs being very very rare and tanks and other irregular things abundant) I do think that has validity.

But, one of the lovely (and terrible) things to note about the Wyrm is that the Ultra 2s make up about half it's ranged damage.  They average about 6 damage a turn.  So do the LRMs.  Since the AC2s have more range, they'll actually tend to be more than half the mech's ranged damage (until they jam).  So, if using the mech to actually try and damage foes, they're probably the correct choice. 

That said, for luring some fool into the welcoming embrace of a Hunchback IIC (or comparable; Kodiak? Turkina D?  might even work in a BV game since the Wyrm is so terribly cheap), I'm honestly not sure which class 2 AC is best.  But, I am now determined to try something like that some day.

[Kojak]

I do wish we'd see a Great Wyrm upgrade that uses the SharkFox-built RAC/2.

[Wrangler]

I was toying around with the Standard Great Wyrm  and found that a single ProtoAutocannon/8 could be added with 2 tons of ammunition.  Unfortunately, the weapon not long range.

I tried using a PAC/4 which i fit pair of them into the right arm and giving up to 3 tons of ammo, but 60 shots is bit much, but the range of the gun improved 5/10/15.    Least it equal damaging as the Ultra/2s if they all hit at once.  :P

[Jellico]

I do wish we'd see a Great Wyrm upgrade that uses the SharkFox-built RAC/2.

It was looked at. RAC/2s roughly correspond to AC5s weight and damage wise. So there was no great advantage swapping the paired UAC/2s for a single RAC/2 with its extra ammunition, shorter range, and similar damage.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It was looked at. RAC/2s roughly correspond to AC5s weight and damage wise. So there was no great advantage swapping the paired UAC/2s for a single RAC/2 with its extra ammunition, shorter range, and similar damage.

Only if you're looking at damage by itself.  You're still gaining some extra tonnage for secondary systems and the not inconsequential ability to clear jams.

[Demiurge]

BJ-1 Blackjacks were actually pretty decent back in the day.  The AC/2s were annoying at range, helped provide some AA, and could crit out vehicles at range, plus armor levels are generally lower on earlier units like those in the Succession Wars so the 2 points went a little farther.  The MLs and jump jets meant they could be passable infighters.  Not a great 'Mech but it's far more suited to the 3025 Inner Sphere battlefield than the Great Wyrm is to a Clan Golden Age Trial.

The blackjack is also relatively swift at 4/6/4, which could keep it out of reach of a lot of its 3025 peers.  Long-range popguns aren't going to cut it on a 5/8 in the Golden Century.  Too much that can just run the Great Wyrm down and murder it without breaking a sweat.

I can cut the game developers a break when a mech is bad in an interesting way.  The Hunchback IIC, for instance, could readily be improved by swapping the UAC-20s for gauss rifles, or better still a gauss rifle and a PPC and some more armor.  But it actually makes sense that the clans would use a machine as goofy as the HB IIC, because every once in a while some lucky punk takes one and goes on a lucky streak of devastation and glory.  Since the clan warrior caste apparently does not understand how statistics work at all (c.f. the horrifying notes on the Nova Cat seer program in one of the 3145 sourcebooks), I can totally buy that they would line up in droves to cram themselves into the idiotic, but hilarious suicide machine that is the HB IIC in the hopes that next time, they would be the lucky punk.  Or, you know, they do so out of desperation, like how the fluff text describes.

But the Great Wyrm?  It just doesn't work.  There is no plausible scenario under which it could shine and explain its enduring appeal.  It stands shoulder to shoulder with a number of similar-mass designs that are painfully, obviously better.  If you strap into a HB IIC you just might die a glorious hero.  If you strap into a Great Wyrm the only way you'll survive is if your teammates carry you.  You can't contribute to the battle enough to matter.  This isn't 3025 where the worst you can catch for playing long-range footsie with smallbore autocannons are some stray LRM clusters.  There are these things called clan ER large lasers that hit three times harder than your stupid UAC-2s, and you outrange them by a mere sixty meters.

UAC-2s, not even once.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

It helps that IIRC in universe fluff is that the Clans use the HBIIC for older warriors who haven't particularly distinguished themselves. 

Early thirties, no bloodname, few prospects.  So here, take out a machine that is almost everything shaved off for a few massive alpha strikes.  You land it all, and sure you massively overheat, but you can potentially knock out a Dire Wolf with that much flying lead.

It fits the Clan idea of short and sharp decisive engagements vs. a more Spheroid grinding attrition battle.  And lets a Warrior roll the dice on a 'death or glory' shot at enough recognition to finally get noticed and into a Bloodright Trial.  Heck, imagine how many of these are lined up for the Grand Melee for that last slot for a Bloodname.

Yeah it isn't 'gamer optimized' but looking at it from a Clan perspective, the trade offs made make sense.

[Demiurge]

It helps that IIRC in universe fluff is that the Clans use the HBIIC for older warriors who haven't particularly distinguished themselves. 

Early thirties, no bloodname, few prospects.  So here, take out a machine that is almost everything shaved off for a few massive alpha strikes.  You land it all, and sure you massively overheat, but you can potentially knock out a Dire Wolf with that much flying lead.

It fits the Clan idea of short and sharp decisive engagements vs. a more Spheroid grinding attrition battle.  And lets a Warrior roll the dice on a 'death or glory' shot at enough recognition to finally get noticed and into a Bloodright Trial.  Heck, imagine how many of these are lined up for the Grand Melee for that last slot for a Bloodname.

Yeah it isn't 'gamer optimized' but looking at it from a Clan perspective, the trade offs made make sense.

More importantly, the HB IIC is incredibly fun.  It lends itself to a lot of engaging and interesting scenarios.  The Great Wyrm?  Not so much.  It's just a bad mech, it isn't bad in an interesting way.  The only reason you'd take it is if it came up in an RAT or you needed to use up some BV or something.  From a gamer perspective, its existence doesn't add much.  We're not going to pick it unless there aren't other options.  It's not even like an urbanmech, which is so bad that you feel compelled to use it.

Honestly, the Great Wyrm looks like a mech that was designed by someone who wasn't all that familiar with the rules and the construction system.  They didn't realize that armor has a ridiculous benefit/tonnage ratio, so you should always go full armor, and that small-bore autocannons are a joke weapon that you should never use.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

How many FASA era Clan mechs waste tonnage on AC-2s?  I know it wasn't a rare phenomenon.

[UnLimiTeD]

Might be that was a conscious theme and some designers just didn't get the memo and created something that was actually somewhat good. In addition to the ridiculous tech advantage, I mean.

[Iron Mongoose]

More importantly, the HB IIC is incredibly fun.  It lends itself to a lot of engaging and interesting scenarios.  The Great Wyrm?  Not so much.  It's just a bad mech, it isn't bad in an interesting way.  The only reason you'd take it is if it came up in an RAT or you needed to use up some BV or something.  From a gamer perspective, its existence doesn't add much.  We're not going to pick it unless there aren't other options.  It's not even like an urbanmech, which is so bad that you feel compelled to use it.

Honestly, the Great Wyrm looks like a mech that was designed by someone who wasn't all that familiar with the rules and the construction system.  They didn't realize that armor has a ridiculous benefit/tonnage ratio, so you should always go full armor, and that small-bore autocannons are a joke weapon that you should never use.

To the first point, I think mechs that use AC2s are every bit as fun to use as ones with AC20s.  Sure, the 20s blast great heaping holes in things, but it's pretty all or nothing.  With 2s, it's about the grind.  And, as I pointed out, I think there is and can be a lot of joy in taking a mech that is absolutely bad and still pulling a fast one on your opponent anyway.  I've never had less fun for having a Great Wyrm in my forces.  Truthfully, because the Great Wyrm can start shooting much earlier than the Hunchback, which has to spend most of it's time playing hide and seek lest it's even weaker armor be breached before it's vastly larger cannons can come to bare. 

As to the second point, I think you've made what I think is an incorrect assumption about the designer and the nature of mechs designed for TROs.  The fact that it mimics the Dragon well, despite a dramatically different tech base, hints that the designer had a deep knowledge of the rules and of the history of the game.  Now, as we all agree, that deep knowledge has been put to use making a Clan mech that seems to belong on a Succession Wars battlefield rather than a Golden Age Clan one, but I think there's no reason to question that that was by design, and not accident.  Especially in the wake of TRO3058, the mechs of TRO3060 were I think subjected to a more careful look, not to encourage more mechs like the Spector or Lynx or Devastator, but to ensure their absence. 

[Iron Mongoose]

How many FASA era Clan mechs waste tonnage on AC-2s?  I know it wasn't a rare phenomenon.

Fewer than you think, I think.  It's just that they're so memorable for being rotten (I'm thinking Ice Ferret A and Mist Lynx D here, though I've long had a soft spot for the Dire Wolf B) that we dwell on them and the really ace variants more than the ones in the middle.  But at the same time, a lot more than zero, too.

[Liam's Ghost]

To me, the AC-2s on a reasonably mobile mech make a bit of sense for a dueling culture. It demands finesse and skill to use properly, but against a "balanced" (the clans generally preferred to avoid lopsided duels) opponent, it wasn't exactly doomed. Those AC-2s might have even been a sneaky advantage. We know from the fluff of the Incubus that the clans would even go so far as to leave weapons out of a fight to make a more balanced match. The UAC-2s might allow the Great Wyrm to keep a long range weapon in the fight where more impressive ones might be ruled unfair. 

[Giovanni Blasini]

I also wonder if it wasn't envisioned as primarily facing bandits, serving as a second-line garrison unit, where the Ultra/2s would have extreme range, utility against fighters and ground units, while leaving ERLLs for frontline units.

[JadedFalcon]

I also wonder if it wasn't envisioned as primarily facing bandits, serving as a second-line garrison unit, where the Ultra/2s would have extreme range, utility against fighters and ground units, while leaving ERLLs for frontline units.

This was my initial thought. The LRMs can also be effective against bandit caste infantry.

From a game design perspective, could the Great Wyrm's reason for existing be that it is meant to be a filler mech for GMs to throw at players?

[Wrangler]

Isn't possible that it may have been more effective during the early Clan era where the rules of engagement were still...being formed still?  Great Wyrm always seem to be a harasser and perhaps a heavy scout unit. In that sense to me, that would suggest the design was not intended to get in there (combat) and to provide means for the pilot/mechwarrior gain a kill/honor. That honor on the MechWarrior's record that eventually could eventual help earn spot for a bloodname and win right to have his DNA used to create children. 

I just think if to explain it off is that this was (in game fluff wise) was designed for different kind of combat that was being phased/changed for Clan Ritual combat we are normally used to.  In more traditional combat (if reading Era Digest Golden Century and Operation: Klondike correctly) which the Inner Sphere has always used such designs like the Great Wyrm for.  Big Clan brother to the Assassin?

Or this could just be a fluff flawed Mech that to help create balance in the game.  I think it's neat harasser machine and traditional scout unit.  Beat being pasted in a Kit Fox or Fire Moth with super think armor. yeah it's not as fast of those examples but it's in same range, it just lacks the kill power of the former's alternate configurations.

[wantec]

Something we've seen in novels and the video games, but doesn't translate to TW play, is that weapons often have different recharge/reload rates. Other than a PPC capacitor or TSEMP, every weapon can fire one turn and is immediately ready to fire the next turn. In the novels and particularly in the video games, some things reload/recharge faster. In that kind of environment something like the 2-class ACs might shine even better. They still have minimal damage, but if you can fire them 3-4 times in the same time it takes to reload an AC/20, that improves their standing somewhat.

The old Solaris dueling rules had this. Under those rules, a turn was 2.5 seconds, instead of 10 seconds for TW scale. So 4 dueling turns equaled 1 TW turn. Machine Guns and AC/2 were the only weapons that could fire every turn, where an AC/5 could fire every turn and LRMs and PPCs could fire every 3rd turn. Under those rules an AC/2 and AC/5 if fired continuously, would deal almost the same damage. Same for the AC/2 and LRM5. That kind of situation might better explain why the smallest bore ACs are so popular and keep showing up on 'Mechs.

[Jellico]

Especially in the wake of TRO3058, the mechs of TRO3060 were I think subjected to a more careful look, not to encourage more mechs like the Spector or Lynx or Devastator, but to ensure their absence.

This is the TRO that gave us the Urbie IIC, the Clint, the Mandrill, Matador, Snow Fox, Ice storm, Fire Scorpion, Predator, and Corvis.
After two TROs of secondliners technically superior to the 3050 Omnis I think underwhelming was the word of the day.