TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold

[ColBosch]

SidAlpha has an update video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Z3-y0mr00&feature=share

Piranha Games has filed a motion to dismiss with prejudice, on the grounds that Harmony Gold does not own the copyrights in question.

[monbvol]

Well we have known for a while now that was part of the defense strategy.

Here's hoping that the shots land and score a critical hit so we can be done with this mess once and for all.

[Tymers Realm]

In full agreement here.
Because if Piranha's motion works, I'd imagine so would everyone elses.

Keeping good thoughts about this...

[monbvol]

There are two possible complications for this motion that mean we shouldn't celebrate just yet.

1: While they may not own the actual designs it does seem pretty clear from the Arbitration Agreement that they do own the distribution rights for them and thus can still make claims for infringement on those rights without having to bring a new case.

2: Jordan did sign a legally binding agreement that can give a foundation upon which to make a case irrespective of what rights Harmony Gold actually has.

I did find a link to at least part of the Arbitration Agreement a while back and I do remember it was not the smoking gun we've been hoping for but certainly could be helpful to CGL's case.

So ultimately I do think we may have a favorable outcome and perhaps sooner rather than later.  Of course in the real world legal system that may still mean sometime in 2018.

[abou]

Fingers crossed this all works out.

If the judge rules in Piranha's favor, does that mean the agreement signed by Wisemen in '96 is moot? He signed something based on shoddy legal footing. Wouldn't the HG/Tatsunoko arbitration agreement nullify that document?

[ColBosch]

If the judge rules in Piranha's favor, does that mean the agreement signed by Wisemen in '96 is moot? He signed something based on shoddy legal footing. Wouldn't the HG/Tatsunoko arbitration agreement nullify that document?

No idea. It all comes down to what the judge decides.

[monbvol]

No idea. It all comes down to what the judge decides.

*nod*

That is the wild card more than anything else.  It would certainly make it easier for HBS, PGI, and CGL to tell Harmony Gold to go sit in a corner and think about what they did.

Which is another major issue.  I am not sure if there was a joint defense agreement entered so if this motion is granted it may not automatically mean dismissal for HBS and CGL as well.  Would certainly make it a lot easier for them to get everything dismissed though.

[ANS Kamas P81]

If the judge grants Piranha the motion, there's virtually nothing stopping the same for the rest.  Like Sid says, they're probably just going to wait and see how it plays out, and not duplicate effort prematurely in case the judge decides not to agree with PGI's motion.

[monbvol]

True enough and I feel a bit optimistic.  With the holiday season though the judge probably won't make a ruling for a while.

[SCC]

Is this Sid Alpha the same guy who was linked to before?

[ColBosch]

I've had my share of beefs with CGL lately, but I am still angry at just how awful Harmony Gold is being here. The "nuSeen" are supposed to be a break with the old anime visuals, finally putting that entire sordid chapter in the past, but HG just can't pass up the chance to be terrible one last time.

Is this Sid Alpha the same guy who was linked to before?

Yes, I linked to him and Leonard French.

[Pat Payne]

So ultimately I do think we may have a favorable outcome and perhaps sooner rather than later.  Of course in the real world legal system that may still mean sometime in 2018.

My only other question is this: If the motion is accepted and HG is finally given the legal pantsing it so richly deserves, is this a "stake through Dracula's heart, the Dragon is dead, Palpatine's going down the reactor shaft, the Soviets are waving flags from the Reichstag" kind of final, or could they appeal or otherwise throw a last spanner in the works?

[ColBosch]

My only other question is this: If the motion is accepted and HG is finally given the legal pantsing it so richly deserves, is this a "stake through Dracula's heart, the Dragon is dead, Palpatine's going down the reactor shaft, the Soviets are waving flags from the Reichstag" kind of final, or could they appeal or otherwise throw a last spanner in the works?

They can always appeal up the chain, but unless the judge makes a serious error it's unlikely to be reversed.

[monbvol]

The only possible hitch is that the judge does decide the breach of contract can stand on it's own.  Which is an admitted possibility as everything I can find does say Harmony Gold does have the distribution rights and those could be sufficient to carry the breach of contract separately.

[ANS Kamas P81]

They can appeal, at the moment - but there's a careful term in the PGI motion, "with prejudice."  This means that IF* the judge agrees, and uses that term in his decision, it's over.  No further injunctions based on this claim can be made, which would mean that Harmony Gold cannot try suing PGI again for this.  It's basically a way to stop frivolous repeat suits from being filed, it's an automatic rejection of any further attempts to bring it up in court.  Think of it as the legal equivalent of "You get nothing!  You lose!  Good day sir!"

*And just to reiterate what doesn't need to be, that's IF.  It's up to the wizard** at this point.

**He wears a black robe to work, speaks a strange language that binds us all, and his declaration cannot be challenged.  Wizard.

[SCC]

They can appeal, at the moment - but there's a careful term in the PGI motion, "with prejudice."  This means that IF* the judge agrees, and uses that term in his decision, it's over.  No further injunctions based on this claim can be made, which would mean that Harmony Gold cannot try suing PGI again for this.  It's basically a way to stop frivolous repeat suits from being filed, it's an automatic rejection of any further attempts to bring it up in court.  Think of it as the legal equivalent of "You get nothing!  You lose!  Good day sir!"

I believe that it's worse then that, if the judge dismisses it with prejudice I'm pretty sure if HG sues PGI again that PGI can sue HG back, not sure about other BT rights holders but.

[The Eagle]

So here's my question.  If PGI's "dismissal with prejudice" goes through, and if CGL/IMR achieve a similar dismissal, what does that mean for the Unseen?  Could their likeness be used again in official art?  Could players use their original minis in official games?  Or would CGL have to go back to the original Japanese copyright holder to get permission for such?

[Empyrus]

So here's my question.  If PGI's "dismissal with prejudice" goes through, and if CGL/IMR achieve a similar dismissal, what does that mean for the Unseen?  Could their likeness be used again in official art?  Could players use their original minis in official games?  Or would CGL have to go back to the original Japanese copyright holder to get permission for such?

I would assume CGL will keep their "only in-house art" stance regardless.

[Jaim Magnus]

I would assume CGL will keep their "only in-house art" stance regardless.

Safer that way, period.

[Sigil]

Safer that way, period.

If CGL had piggy-backed on PGI's art as HBS as done, HG would only have had a single target for their lawsuit.  Instead, because CGL chose to go it alone, the legal defense is spread across multiple entities who may have to defend their art on a case-by-case basis.  I'm not convinced CGL commissioning their own versions was the best move.  Only time will tell.

[Tymers Realm]

If CGL had piggy-backed on PGI's art as HBS as done, HG would only have had a single target for their lawsuit.  Instead, because CGL chose to go it alone, the legal defense is spread across multiple entities who may have to defend their art on a case-by-case basis.  I'm not convinced CGL commissioning their own versions was the best move.  Only time will tell.

I'd say it could of been as complicated because of the split of electronic and table-top rights the BT IP has. While there could be cooperation between both sides, it really depends on how the rights for each side are as well.

[NeonKnight]

Fingers crossed this all works out.

If the judge rules in Piranha's favor, does that mean the agreement signed by Wisemen in '96 is moot? He signed something based on shoddy legal footing. Wouldn't the HG/Tatsunoko arbitration agreement nullify that document?

That is my thinking thinking as well. Sure I'm only an armchair lawyer, basing most of my Law Knowledge comes from watching people's Court and Judge Judy, but even watching those shows the times I see contracts cases upon which the main thrust of the argument is in some way Person A did not have the right to sell Person B some item (often a car), then the only recourse is to make the parties whole and put them back in the position they were in before the contract was made.

So, again my 'arm-chair lawyering' would see this the 1996 agreement is rendered Null and Void, as Weisman cannot grant full standing to HG something HG did not have access to, nor apparently Weisman.

Just like I cannot say Colbosh has full rights to use the 2004 D&D artwork, and I will cease to use it.

[monbvol]

So here's my question.  If PGI's "dismissal with prejudice" goes through, and if CGL/IMR achieve a similar dismissal, what does that mean for the Unseen?  Could their likeness be used again in official art?  Could players use their original minis in official games?  Or would CGL have to go back to the original Japanese copyright holder to get permission for such?

Big West still has the rights and a deal would have to be struck with them and Harmony Gold still owns distribution rights so they would have to technically be included too.

[marauder648]

Safer that way, period.

Aff, lets not try our luck any more.

[Fear Factory]

Just some random thoughts.

Remembering things from school, if this case does go through in PGI's/HBS' favor, it would take precedence over any previous cases if they were brought up.  However, it can't actually remove what happened in the FASA days, but amend it.
 So it could effectively prevent Harmony Gold from doing this crap again.  If I was PGI/HBS, if I won, I would just leave it at that and continue on my merry way.

[Juodas Varnas]

Just some random thoughts.

Remembering things from school, if this case does go through in PGI's/HBS' favor, it would take precedence over any previous cases if they were brought up.  However, it can't actually remove what happened in the FASA days, but amend it.
 So it could effectively prevent Harmony Gold from doing this crap again.  If I was PGI/HBS, if I won, I would just leave it at that and continue on my merry way.

Does what happened with FASA even matter? Wasn't it settled out of court?

[monbvol]

It was settled out of court but the contract that Jordan signed is still legally binding and court enforceable.  As such it is a possibility that the judge can decide that the breach of contract portion of the case can go forward separately.

I however consider that unlikely as so much of it does hinge on the copyright infringement portion of the case.

[guardiandashi]

Does what happened with FASA even matter? Wasn't it settled out of court?

you can make arguments both ways, the problem is that as I understand it, part of the issue is that that happened before the decisions in japan on actual ownership of the 41 characters occurred.

while in hindsight the reality is that the whole "HG case" was in fact based on IMO a frivolous lawsuit they had no legal standing, at the time they though that they did because T corp sold/ gave them "Rights" that they didn't actually have.  kind of like me deciding to sell you my neighbors vehicle because they allowed me to borrow it, and I decided that meant I could dispose of it as well. the other issue is that at the time HG had a lot of liquid cash, and FASA had a lot less money, so they settled rather than throwing away MORE money they didn't really have to further enrich the lawyers.

in summary at a certain level it all comes down to standing which is the legalese way of saying "by what grounds do you claim this is relevant, and that it concerns you.

[Wrangler]

I wonder if this move will work.  I don't thing HG will let case get dismiss and one of their revenue sources get blow up.

[monbvol]

I think you overestimate Harmony Gold in a couple ways there.

Robotech/Macross is actually a fairly small revenue stream for them.  So if it gets blown up it won't hurt them that much.

They have also had court cases that they have initiated go against them in the past.  So it wouldn't be the first time.