Did the Enhanced ERPPC show up with the Blakists?

[Colt Ward]

The Enhanced ERPPC was part of the Wolverine's development program after Operation Klondike as they settled into their enclaves and sought to improve their Clan.  It was featured on a new mech they built, the Pulverizer, which is never seen again afaik,  The Enhanced is IS tech base IIRC, and is a step between the Star League's ER PPC and the Clan version introduced to the Inner Sphere during the Invasion.  Still has the weight & crits of the IS version but it does 12 damage instead of 10 like the SL-era weapon.  Range brackets and heat are still the same as both the SL & Clan versions.

So if the Enhanced ERPPC (eERPPC?  ERPPCe? E-ERPPC?) was available to the Blakists, why would it be in a sourcebook about Blakists/Jihad like Blake Documents if it wasn't, then why was it not replacing SL designed ERPPC on things like Lightrays, Celestials, Defiance Zeus before the retool or any other design that carried a ERPPC?

Is there some mention of why they had it but did not use it in source material?

[Dragon Cat]

I can't remember it being mentioned or used

If Blake Documents is to believed then they could have inherited it but all examples were destroyed? ComStar believed it was a dead end? No scientists to make it work?

It's something that would have been cool to see again same with the Wolvie designs

[Col Toda]

I do not think the WoB would have bothered with it . With actual Clan ER PPC's in existence to reverse engineer they would be a push to develop a Clan invasion one . Other interim tech like the light fusion engine and Gauss Rifle which was developed while trying to reverse engineer Clan tech stayed in existence because they were worth fielding on their own . The individual unit price for a light fusion engine made it worthwhile while the better range profile and ammo considerations made the light Gauss Rifle worthwhile. The eER PPC just would not be worthwhile while you had captured examples of Clan tech .Just the knowledge of possibly succeeding in reverse engineering a better one because of the existing examples would prevent any interim weapon from being fielded.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

But bear in mind: if Betrayal of Ideals and Blakes Documents especially are to be believed then the Wolverine survivors made it to ComStar not to long after the start of the Second Sucession War. meaning the Extended ER PPC's are about two hundred years before they even see Clan tech. Granted ComStar didn't have an Army at the time but I can only hope someone was smart enough to start making and using that tech somewhere (most likely on the Hidden Five)

[Robroy]

The WoB didn't field them because they didn't have them. There is a note somewhere in that section that two of the mechs are WoB and the other three have only been sighted in the Periphery, faction unknown. Or something to that effect.

A nice twist if you want players to come across a Wolverine / Minnesota Tribe cache.

[ANS Kamas P81]

There's also the bit that the Blake Documents aren't really true and the Word never had them.  By the time they would have heard of "enhanced ERPPCs" they'd have access to Clan salvage - which would you rather build, a 7 ton 3 crit 12 damage weapon, or a 6 ton 2 crit 15 damage weapon?

[Robroy]

Well as far as building them I think it would be easier for the IS as the eERPPC is closer to Star League tech, kind of like pulse lasers and x-pulse lasers.

[JPArbiter]

Blakists didn't deploy wolverine equipment aside from the Wolverine II to milita commands, and that was more a Star League thing the clan wolverine. The pulverizer on the 2007 diorama was an easter egg

I also thought One of the sucession war books came out and said that "the blood" part of the blakist docs was a definative forgery.

[Colt Ward]

There's also the bit that the Blake Documents aren't really true and the Word never had them.  By the time they would have heard of "enhanced ERPPCs" they'd have access to Clan salvage - which would you rather build, a 7 ton 3 crit 12 damage weapon, or a 6 ton 2 crit 15 damage weapon?

Except they were not building Lightrays & Warhammers with cERPPC and placed HPPCs on the Celestials & Zeus.  Why keep building SL designed ERPPCs and the new HPPCs if the Enhanced ERPPC was available?

Though I guess that is one way to prove that section of Blake Documents false?

[HABeas2]

Is there some mention of why they had it but did not use it in source material?

Because they never had it.

- Herb

[Hominid Mk II]

The Enhanced ER PPC was part of the Wolverines' development program after Operation Klondike as they settled into their enclaves and sought to improve their Clan.  It was featured on a new 'Mech they built, the Pulverizer, which is never seen again AFAIK.  The Enhanced is IS tech base IIRC, and is a step between the Star League's ER PPC and the Clan version introduced to the Inner Sphere during the Invasion.

The Blake Documents definitely implies it to be buildable with the IS tech base, but Interstellar Operations has moved the goalposts and described it as needing the Clan tech base.

So if the Enhanced ER PPC... was available to the Blakists, why would it be in a sourcebook about Blakists/Jihad like Blake Documents if it wasn't, then why was it not replacing SL designed ER PPC on things like Lightrays, Celestials, Defiance Zeus before the retool or any other design that carried an ER PPC?

Is there some mention of why they had it but did not use it in source material?

This is an excellent question. Just knowing it's possible should logically have had the Blood working determinedly to replicate it, even if in the confusion of their flight from the Clan Homeworlds their Wolverine ancestors somehow failed to make copies of the blueprints. Maybe they were too afraid that, if the Clans knew the Com Guards had it, the Clans might not assume that it had been developed independently but would correctly guess that Old ComStar had Wolverine connections?

Is there some mention of why they had it but did not use it in source material?

Because they never had it.

- Herb

Uh, could you expand on that a little, Herb?

Blakists didn't deploy Wolverine equipment aside from the Wolverine II to militia commands, and that was more a Star League thing than Clan Wolverine. The Pulverizer on the 2007 diorama was an Easter Egg.

I also thought one of the Succession War books came out and said that "the Blood" part of the Blakist docs was a definitive forgery.

Huh? Where?

[Moonsword]

The Wolverine II was not Clan Wolverine equipment, it was built for the SLDF over a decade prior to the Exodus.

[Maelwys]

Because they never had it.

- Herb

Uh, could you expand on that a little, Herb?

He's saying that the WoB didn't have the Enhanced ERPPC. Jihad Secrets simply says "Here are 5 Battlemechs. 3 of them [Mercury II, Stag, Pulverizer] have never been seen in the IS and none of those 3 have been seen with the WoB. Another one is a cutting edge Blakist machine, and the final one is an example of utilizing obsolete weaponry."

There's nothing in Jihad Secrets that says the WoB has the Enhanced ERPPC.

2nd Succession War says something like "The Minnesota Tribe's origins are unknown despite what was said during the Jihad, and that portions of the Blake Documents were probably an elaborate forgery. Maybe."

Actually, thinking of it. The Bears should be jumping down the throat of HTI and Kurita. Because if the information on the Pulverizer, Stag and Mercury II didn't come from the Blood connections of the WoB, shouldn't the Bears be asking them where exactly the information came from? (and its not like the data is just technical specs, there are details on the history as well).

[Hominid Mk II]

Uh, could you expand on that a little, Herb?

 

He's saying that the WoB didn't have the Enhanced ER PPC. Jihad Secrets simply says "Here are 5 BattleMechs. 3 of them [Mercury II, Stag, Pulverizer] have never been seen in the IS and none of those 3 have been seen with the WoB. Another one is a cutting edge Blakist machine, and the final one is an example of utilizing obsolete weaponry.".

There's nothing in Jihad Secrets that says the WoB has the Enhanced ER PPC.

Hmm... that does sound about right.

2nd Succession War says something like "The Minnesota Tribe's origins are unknown despite what was said during the Jihad, and that portions of the Blake Documents were probably an elaborate forgery. Maybe.".

Sounds like it's just somebody's in-universe opinion, then.

Actually, thinking of it... the Bears should be jumping down the throat of HTI and Kurita. Because if the information on the Pulverizer, Stag and Mercury II didn't come from the Blood connections of the WoB, shouldn't the Bears be asking them where exactly the information came from? (And it's not like the data is just technical specs, there are details on the history as well).

Which makes it seem as though that information must be genuine, doesn’t it...?

[The_Livewire]

Personally, I think even though the EERPPC didn't show up with the Blakests, it should show up in the Inner Sphere some time in the post jihad era (besides with the Scorpions).  It seems a 'simple' enhancement of the ERPPC, and since the IS can as of the dark age, apparently build the clan ERPPC, surely someone duplicated the enhanced.  It doesn't have the full punch of the HPPC, or a Clan ERPPC, but it's a nice niche item since replacing IS ER PPCS and regular PPCS is easier than replacing those with a heavy or clan (same weight/crits).  And remember this is a universe that still has people making AC 5s and 10's :-)

[Hominid Mk II]

Personally, I think even though the EER PPC didn't show up with the Blakests, it should show up in the Inner Sphere some time in the post jihad era (besides with the Scorpions).  It seems a 'simple' enhancement of the ER PPC, and since the IS can as of the dark age, apparently build the clan ER PPC, surely someone duplicated the enhanced.  It doesn't have the full punch of the H PPC, or a Clan ER PPC, but it's a nice niche item since replacing IS ER PPCs and regular PPCs is easier than replacing those with a heavy or clan (same weight/crits).  And remember this is a universe that still has people making AC 5s and 10's :-)

Agree with you totally!

[Maelwys]

Sounds like it's just somebody's in-universe opinion, then.

Sure, that's pretty much all any sourcebook is, an IC point of view written down. Back in the FASA days they were usually written by ComStar, because it was as (mostly) neutral viewpoint and since they ran the HPGs and has ROM, they usually had a reason for knowing what was going on. Others were written by Wolfnet/Dragoons, and now it seems that the Republic has taken over the sort of central viewpoint.

They're usually given a bit more gravitas, but as the Jihad shows and alot of the "ComStar got it wrong," bits from early publications that weren't fact checked as heavily (Or the data didn't exist), they aren't necessarily infallible.

Which makes it seem as though that information must be genuine, doesn’t it...?

Well. The data could've come from the WoB/ComStar but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were linked to the Wolverines. ComStar could've just found an abandoned DropShip (or WarShip) that had technical specs on the Mechs, without really providing any way to reverse engineer the Enhanced ERPPC. "It says here that it has an enhanced ERPPC." "What's that?" "I dunno really. Maybe its got some sort of insulator like the Star League had for lasers on it."

Or it could've come from Kurita. Maybe Uncle Chandy found a Minnesota Tribe DropShip and had the details on the designs. Having the information is suggestive, but its not proof of anything.

And if the WoB didn't have connections with the Wolverines, then the Ghost Bears should be looking pretty closely at where Kurita got their information...

Personally, I think even though the EERPPC didn't show up with the Blakests, it should show up in the Inner Sphere some time in the post jihad era (besides with the Scorpions).  It seems a 'simple' enhancement of the ERPPC, and since the IS can as of the dark age, apparently build the clan ERPPC, surely someone duplicated the enhanced.  It doesn't have the full punch of the HPPC, or a Clan ERPPC, but it's a nice niche item since replacing IS ER PPCS and regular PPCS is easier than replacing those with a heavy or clan (same weight/crits).  And remember this is a universe that still has people making AC 5s and 10's :-)

I'm not really sold on that. No one has a working prototype that we know of, while there are literally hundreds if not thousands of Clan ERPPCs that people can look at and attempt to copy and make something better than the Enhanced ERPPC. Sure, research labs might be able to get to the Enhanced ERPPC before the regular Clantech version, but who's really going to put it out for sale, knowing that there's a better product out there, especially with the Diamond Sharks selling Clantech? If you're that close to making a regular Clan ERPPC, why spend the time revamping your facilities and supply lines to produce the inferior product, knowing sometime soon that you might have to simply retool things again to produce the regular one? Why go through the time and money and risk your competition coming out with the "Final" product?

[Sartris]

based on how technology in-universe actually finds its way into the field, it was easier to just go with the clan-spec ERPPC. The clan system was already finding its way onto IS custom designs and testbed prototype machines in the 3060s and 3070s. By the early 3080s, actual clan machines mounting the ERPPC like the Pack Hunter II are common enough to make it on the MUL Mercenary list and by 3100, you see the clan ppc on mixed-tech production models like the Templar III.

A theoretical wolverine enhanced gun would have been a wasted effort. The clan version was already available in significant quantities for a far smaller capital investment.

[JadeHellbringer]

Remember: Anything from an ISP book is subject to being anywhere from mostly true (Toyamas) to shrouded in mystery (Green Ghosts) to outright bullshit (tier 5 genecaste, if not the whole genecaste concept). Never use those books as the foundation for fact unless it's repeated elsewhere, or if you're trying to goad a gullible RPG group into believing in fairy tales.

[The_Livewire]

I'm not really sold on that. No one has a working prototype that we know of, while there are literally hundreds if not thousands of Clan ERPPCs that people can look at and attempt to copy and make something better than the Enhanced ERPPC. Sure, research labs might be able to get to the Enhanced ERPPC before the regular Clantech version, but who's really going to put it out for sale, knowing that there's a better product out there, especially with the Diamond Sharks selling Clantech? If you're that close to making a regular Clan ERPPC, why spend the time revamping your facilities and supply lines to produce the inferior product, knowing sometime soon that you might have to simply retool things again to produce the regular one? Why go through the time and money and risk your competition coming out with the "Final" product?

Respectfully, I disagree.  Using that logic, the heavy PPC would never have come about (since there are hundreds if not thousands of Clan ERPPCs) nor likely would the snubbie, since there were no working prototypes we know of.  That the Enhanced PPC came into production in 2823, two years after Klondike ended (per IO, page 95) and the improved PPC (2 crits, 6 tons) was introduced in 2820 it means both weapons were developed in the 18-20 years from the second Exodus. 

Also per IO "But a few—like the Enhanced PPC reportedly deployed first by Clan Wolverine—made more significant improvements in performance that would spark the true leap to modern Clan-spec weaponry." (IO, pg 95)  It seems logical to me that similar steps would have been made in building the Heavy PPC and or light PPCs. 

Finally, unless it's been addressed in Errata, Escorpión Imperio has both Enhanced and Improved PPCs (circa 3080) so someone at least can make them. :-)

[Frabby]

I also thought One of the sucession war books came out and said that "the blood" part of the blakist docs was a definative forgery.

The 2nd SW book opined that a connection between the Minnesota Tribe and Clan Wolverine wasn't proven.
OOC, we've been told by two Line Developers (Randall Bills and Ray Arrastia) that the Minnesota Tribe in fact were Wolverine survivors. There's also that much-talked-about novel by Blaine Pardoe, Betrayal of Ideals. And the intro fiction to ISP3: Interstellar Expeditions.

Concerning the canon rumor bit about The Blood, Mendrugo worked out that the purported Wolverine diaries contained factual inaccuracies and errors on one hand, marking them forgeries, but on the other hand were close enough to the actual truth that they had to be fabricated by someone with at least a partial knowledge of the truth.
They're themselves wrong but seem to confirm that the actual story was known to... someone. Who then fabricated this warped version of the real story for whatever reason.

[Maelwys]

Respectfully, I disagree.  Using that logic, the heavy PPC would never have come about (since there are hundreds if not thousands of Clan ERPPCs) nor likely would the snubbie, since there were no working prototypes we know of.  That the Enhanced PPC came into production in 2823, two years after Klondike ended (per IO, page 95) and the improved PPC (2 crits, 6 tons) was introduced in 2820 it means both weapons were developed in the 18-20 years from the second Exodus.

Sure, but both the standard Clan ERPPC and the Enhanced ERPPC require a Clantech baseline, whereas the Heavy PPC is buildable under an Inner Sphere techbase, and doesn't require you to undergo the steps needed to change your techbase over.

[Colt Ward]

No, the Enhanced ERPPC is still considered IS, built using the Star League information by Wolverine scientists.

[Sartris]

Respectfully, I disagree.  Using that logic, the heavy PPC would never have come about (since there are hundreds if not thousands of Clan ERPPCs) nor likely would the snubbie, since there were no working prototypes we know of.  That the Enhanced PPC came into production in 2823, two years after Klondike ended (per IO, page 95) and the improved PPC (2 crits, 6 tons) was introduced in 2820 it means both weapons were developed in the 18-20 years from the second Exodus. 

Also per IO "But a few—like the Enhanced PPC reportedly deployed first by Clan Wolverine—made more significant improvements in performance that would spark the true leap to modern Clan-spec weaponry." (IO, pg 95)  It seems logical to me that similar steps would have been made in building the Heavy PPC and or light PPCs. 

Finally, unless it's been addressed in Errata, Escorpión Imperio has both Enhanced and Improved PPCs (circa 3080) so someone at least can make them. :-)

Eh the IO baseline dates aren't really reflections of reality. They're retcon backfills. The first post-helm core updates find homes on production variants in the late 3040s with the exception of DHS and that 3030 locust with TSM (I discount op rosebud variants from the mid 3030s like the kintaro because that tech came out of ComStar warehouses). There are no blakist machines with the weapon, so unless a variant of a Toyama or Grigori is published, there is zero evidence they could ever make it. They used all other manner of advanced gear like VSPLs. Where are the wolverine PPCs?

 The rise of post-Field manual gear that never appeared in the THB of either version of Max Tech like the light and heavy PPC aren't submissable evidence because they were inserted without regard for BTU tech advancement demonstrated through various products since the late 1990s.

[Maelwys]

No, the Enhanced ERPPC is still considered IS, built using the Star League information by Wolverine scientists.

According to IO (barring errata), the Enhanced PPC (why not enhanced ERPPC I don't know) is Clantech.

[Robroy]

I thought it was IS also, but I guess if it was IS it would produce 22 heat.

[The_Livewire]

According to IO (barring errata), the Enhanced PPC (why not enhanced ERPPC I don't know) is Clantech.

<rant>
I find the entire barrier between 'clan tech' and 'IS tech' annoying and arbitrary myself. So in less than 20 years, the survivors of TWO exodus events were able to completely redesign their tech base into something that can't be duplicated in the 50+ years of actual peace in the post jihad era? Especially since this would imply (per Betrayal of Ideals) The Wolverines had two separate tech bases going at the same time (one for the Pulverizer and other new mechs and one for the older mechs.)</rant>

[Robroy]

I can understand some of the tech differences. The IS doesn't have or have lost the material science needed to build the lighter more efficient clan stuff (clan invasion and jihad). It just seems as if every time an IS energy weapon is improved the heat cost jumps nearly 50%.

[haesslich]

<rant>
I find the entire barrier between 'clan tech' and 'IS tech' annoying and arbitrary myself. So in less than 20 years, the survivors of TWO exodus events were able to completely redesign their tech base into something that can't be duplicated in the 50+ years of actual peace in the post jihad era? Especially since this would imply (per Betrayal of Ideals) The Wolverines had two separate tech bases going at the same time (one for the Pulverizer and other new mechs and one for the older mechs.)</rant>

It CAN be duplicated in the post-jihad era - if you've the data to reproduce it (which the Blakists may not have) and a Clantech capable manufacturing base, which the Blakists may or may not have on the Hidden Worlds or anywhere else outside of Terra.

Remember that the SLiE took pretty much all of the best scientists they could get from the Hegemony along with all the  cutting edge project data with them, and then had twenty years with the people who has been developing it in first place working on it. Those same breakthroughs that led to Clantech ERPPCs were first implemented in the enhanced ERPPC.

While you could theoretically go backwards from the Clantech ERPPC to discover the less refined enhanced ERPPC, why would you if it's going to require the same resources to make as the improved version ever replaced it? The breakthrough that gave the enhanced its better damage were the same ones which were used in the Clantech ERPPC.

You might as well make the better model, especially when your numbers are smaller so each gun is more important as you're not going to overwhelm the IS with quantity.

[The_Livewire]

I can understand some of the tech differences. The IS doesn't have or have lost the material science needed to build the lighter more efficient clan stuff (clan invasion and jihad). It just seems as if every time an IS energy weapon is improved the heat cost jumps nearly 50%.

I can understand it as tech advancing in the Golden Century.  I mean an Clantech LRM shouldn't require magic minerals to be half as heavy as an IS tech LRM, it just benefits from hundreds of years of advancement.  Just like a computer from the 90's is smaller and has more power than a computer from the 80's.  Or like how armor can improve from BAR 5 to BAR 9 to standard to ferro.  New methods of manufacturing without an entire arbitrary 'tech base'.

But I assume that 'tech base' is like FASAnomics.  It's just something cooked into the game.

(and yes, I think the Improved PPC and Enhanced PPC should be IS tech base.  The Improved PPC is going to be more expensive than the standard PPC, so there would be that factor.)

There's also going to be a demand on the secondary market for an IS improved PPC.  Good for units that had a clan spec ER PPC and can't afford to replace losses.  Or for units that had a snubbie, and want more range.