Author Topic: 3100s Pirate Shift  (Read 3480 times)

Colt Ward

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3100s Pirate Shift
« on: 07 August 2017, 00:36:43 »
When 3100 rolls around, the Pax Republica is on the Inner Sphere and mech ownership has been hammered down by Stone and those who follow his efforts for peace.  Even the Clans have drawn down their mech forces and eugenics programs to accommodate Stone and his followers.

But we are told piracy still exists and the Periphery is still a dangerous place even if some dens got cleaned out in the Jihad.  Mechs are rare (sort of) once again but battle armor production did not seem to decline and was so spread around that even the Republic lost track of where they had stored or assigned suits.

Should pirate bands on scene before the Dark Ages have been operating with Battle Armor (or weaker armed Exoskeletons) when mechs started becoming rare again?  Battle armor has several advantages for pirates and sneaky operations, and reinforces the primacy of the mech in a way- they are too valuable for pirate scum to get their hands on!
Colt Ward
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SCC

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #1 on: 07 August 2017, 00:43:22 »
There probably shouldn't be any, or at least very many, pirates at that point in time, sending what military forces that do exist out to destroy pirate operations has too many upsides with virtually no downsides for it not to have happened on a large scale.

Nav_Alpha

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #2 on: 07 August 2017, 05:27:56 »
I like to think of this as The Pirate Sunset: times are tough for a vagabond or brigand.

- pirates generally stick to the edges of the map - where governments can't find them and the looting is easier.
So you could argue that out there on the edge of known space, the Republic's rules don't apply.
OR... you can assume that we are looking at a Sphere-wide downturn in militaries, so while you may face less of a government forces - but they are better prepared to chase down pirates because they don't need to keep all the regiments on high alert on the border with rival states.

So less equipment and more switched on pirate hunters.... ie: The Pirate Sunset.

At this point, i would embrace cheap and nasty industrialmechs and high mobility vehicles. BA strike me as too advanced to repair and maintain - but maybe a handful if you can raid the right depot, etc.

So now maybe your pirate king rides an ancient Thunderbolt, his 2IC a Panther. But they're too valuable to risk for the most part and you rely mainly on cheap Indies with MGs, rocket launchers, etc.



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glitterboy2098

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #3 on: 07 August 2017, 12:17:19 »
i would assume the largest pirate kingdoms could probably arrange to obtain small lots of BA using false fronts to buy from the mercenary markets. and that smaller bands might have renegade BA squads from a house military or ex-mercenary group every so often.

but conventional infantry would still dominate.

Doom

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #4 on: 08 August 2017, 01:46:40 »
Pirate bands survived with 'Mechs throughout the Succession Wars. I don't see any serious issues with them keeping old 'Mechs going with scavenged and mismatched parts just like the old pirates managed.

Battlesuits would be more difficult to keep going, since they take less damage to be complete losses. It'd be easier for them to attempt to steal new production directly, which would require having a significant force to overcome factory defenses. Also, I'm not sure what purpose battlesuits would really serve in a pirate band. They're not terrifying like 'Mechs, they cannot carry tons of loot like 'Mechs. Maybe if they're used to kidnap valuable hostages or something, sure. I think their best piracy use would be to assault and capture JumpShips or maybe DropShips in space. Frankly, though, flatbed trucks would be more useful given their ability to haul loot.

SCC

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #5 on: 08 August 2017, 01:54:01 »
Pirate bands survived with 'Mechs throughout the Succession Wars. I don't see any serious issues with them keeping old 'Mechs going with scavenged and mismatched parts just like the old pirates managed.
That's true and all, but there's lots of reasons for nations to hunt down pirates, and I'm pretty sure that post-3052 a lot of pirates came from units that fled fighting the Clans, so there's not going to be a lot of 'new blood' to keep pirating going.

Battlesuits would be more difficult to keep going, since they take less damage to be complete losses. It'd be easier for them to attempt to steal new production directly, which would require having a significant force to overcome factory defenses. Also, I'm not sure what purpose battlesuits would really serve in a pirate band. They're not terrifying like 'Mechs, they cannot carry tons of loot like 'Mechs. Maybe if they're used to kidnap valuable hostages or something, sure. I think their best piracy use would be to assault and capture JumpShips or maybe DropShips in space. Frankly, though, flatbed trucks would be more useful given their ability to haul loot.
Depends upon what your raiding, unless your expecting to experience serious military resistance you likely don't need 'Mechs, and BA are better for urban fights which are likely to be happening. But I definitely agree about the trucks.

JadedFalcon

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #6 on: 08 August 2017, 02:09:22 »
Battle Armor would be highly valued by pirate groups that focus on seizing dropships. Really depends on what the local black market has falling off the back of trucks. Elemental armor might be easier to come by in the Clan space pirates than other areas that see pirate activity.

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #7 on: 08 August 2017, 02:28:01 »
Um, JadedFalcon, pirates don't normally seize DropShips. They date back to the beginning of the game and are more like gangs with tanks then anything else. These are groups that posses JumpShips, DropShips and 'Mechs that raid worlds for potable (Drinking) water and spare parts to keep their 'Mechs function. They normally start out as merc units, but commit one too many crimes and now have prices on their heads as an explanation for what their doing.

JadedFalcon

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #8 on: 08 August 2017, 13:56:35 »
Um, JadedFalcon, pirates don't normally seize DropShips. They date back to the beginning of the game and are more like gangs with tanks then anything else. These are groups that posses JumpShips, DropShips and 'Mechs that raid worlds for potable (Drinking) water and spare parts to keep their 'Mechs function. They normally start out as merc units, but commit one too many crimes and now have prices on their heads as an explanation for what their doing.

Maybe you haven't read much BT since FASA closed, but since at least FM:Periphery, we have seen mention of pirate groups that eschew mechs and focus purely on seizing commerce. These are groups relying on transports like Leopard-CVs and small craft to board and seize entire jumpships laden with Mules and Mammoths with their cargo intact.
One of my favorite anecdotes from Lady Death's pirate's guide to how to pirate like a pro pirate in FM:Periphery was her relating how Helmar Velasek tossed empty spacesuits at a ship he was boarding to bulk up the appearance of his boarding party.

Daring work but lucrative for those who are lucky. There are other groups that operate primarily slavers or bank robbers, showing more of a diversity on the terrestrial side of piracy than simply trying to scrape by. And yes, slavers and bank robbers will benefit from the use of battle armor (if they can get it).

These groups exist in-universe, but  the mech-centrist view of the game means that we simply don't hear about them as much as those that spend the extra fuel, time, and resources to travel hundeds of thousands of miles from a jump point to use giant robots of near-omnipotent power to steal a few goats.

Archangel

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #9 on: 09 August 2017, 00:28:05 »
That's true and all, but there's lots of reasons for nations to hunt down pirates, and I'm pretty sure that post-3052 a lot of pirates came from units that fled fighting the Clans, so there's not going to be a lot of 'new blood' to keep pirating going.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here a little?  On one hand you say that "a lot of pirates came from units that fled fighting the Clans" but on the other you say that "there's not going to be a lot of 'new blood' to keep pirating blood especially since later conflicts would add more fighters to the pirate community.  FedCom deserters from Operation Guerrero and the FedCom Civil War, surviving Black Dragons, FWLM deserters, WoBM and mercenaries from the Jihad, etc.

There are plenty of examples of ongoing pirate troubles in the 3145 TROs including the near disaster of the multinational anti-pirate operation 3129 as described in the HawkWolf's fluff.  Some powers likely also took to sponsoring pirates to harass rival powers without using their own forces like a former FWL world did against Clan Sea Fox.

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Depends upon what your raiding, unless your expecting to experience serious military resistance you likely don't need 'Mechs, and BA are better for urban fights which are likely to be happening. But I definitely agree about the trucks.

There are several issues with pirates using BA (aside from the limited access to new units and parts) including limited ability to carry loot and many having limited ability to elude pursuit (taking up valuable cargo space on transports).  They are probably best used to ambush mobile targets, such as cargo transports, ambushing enemy pursuers (thereby forcing them to regroup and reassess the situation) and securing target areas/DropShips.  Of course the pirate commanders likely consider them disposable assets and will freely abandon them if the situation calls for it especially if given the choice between saving them and saving the loot  >:D.
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SteelRaven

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #10 on: 09 August 2017, 01:04:55 »
(or weaker armed Exoskeletons)
One story somewhere has Yakuza using Indy Exoskeleton to carry a support weapons into a fight, we also have the thief in XTRO: Most Wanted who used Power Armor to carry safes so it's a good fit for pirates.

Exoskelotons and Indy mechs are also still allot easier to come by than Battle Armor in the 3100s.
       
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SCC

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #11 on: 09 August 2017, 02:03:12 »
Aren't you contradicting yourself here a little?  On one hand you say that "a lot of pirates came from units that fled fighting the Clans" but on the other you say that "there's not going to be a lot of 'new blood' to keep pirating blood especially since later conflicts would add more fighters to the pirate community.  FedCom deserters from Operation Guerrero and the FedCom Civil War, surviving Black Dragons, FWLM deserters, WoBM and mercenaries from the Jihad, etc.
No. Whole units are supposed to have turned pirate rather then the Clans, since then there haven't really been times when large(ish) military units would have felt the need to turn to piracy in great numbers since, with the exception of the Jihad, and those would have been units fighting for the WoB. Yeah, I doubt many of them turned to piracy, given that the bulk of them (Militia members) wouldn't be in (much) trouble, they're not turning in great numbers.

There are plenty of examples of ongoing pirate troubles in the 3145 TROs including the near disaster of the multinational anti-pirate operation 3129 as described in the HawkWolf's fluff.  Some powers likely also took to sponsoring pirates to harass rival powers without using their own forces like a former FWL world did against Clan Sea Fox.
There's a limit to that. Both in how much material you can supply and you also have to find front men.

There are several issues with pirates using BA (aside from the limited access to new units and parts) including limited ability to carry loot and many having limited ability to elude pursuit (taking up valuable cargo space on transports).  They are probably best used to ambush mobile targets, such as cargo transports, ambushing enemy pursuers (thereby forcing them to regroup and reassess the situation) and securing target areas/DropShips.  Of course the pirate commanders likely consider them disposable assets and will freely abandon them if the situation calls for it especially if given the choice between saving them and saving the loot  >:D.
By this point BA have been in the IS for 50 years, it's no more unrealistic then them having 'Mechs, in fact it's probably a bit more likely.

Colt Ward

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #12 on: 09 August 2017, 09:07:25 »
Actually, IIRC didn't a Armored Car get robbed by a set of GDL or its spin off armor?

By 3100s (by which I mean 3100-3130) BA is going to be easier to access than mechs, like I said look at how it was spread out in MWDA and suits were left in storage to be forgotten about.  It was not tracked as much by Stone's followers as mechs.  We have IS and Periphery powers building their own BA, so generic parts are available if they cannot use exoskeleton parts.

While you would have to use trucks or Indimechs to haul off loot, if it was not at the spaceport, its really no different than what mech-equipped pirates would have to use.  Except most common BA have hands so they can load the trucks and if you take into account a Tac-Ops rule IIRC, they could have hand holds welded to the trucks to keep bed space free.  BA are also going to be less of a investment than a mech, require less to maintain, can infiltrate a target area with less notice to the defenders, operate inside buildings where mechs cannot go, and finally will take up less space on a dropship which means more room for loot.
Colt Ward
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SteelRaven

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #13 on: 10 August 2017, 00:47:23 »
While power armor has become way, way more common, it doesn't have the survivability of Battlemechs. Considering many pirates get their mechs second hand after generations of warfare, I can't see how pirates get their hands on some BA considering most armor have only been around for about two generation at best and usable salvage is rare. Not saying pirates don't have BA, I just don't saying it being any more common than pirate Battlemechs.   

Pirates can function without BA and limited mechs but as someone else has post, BTU is very armored warfare focused. 
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Nav_Alpha

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #14 on: 10 August 2017, 05:13:39 »
I'd say it depends on what you're doing. BA would be a great asset to pull off a  bank job or hijack an armoured car. Or used in space to capture ships


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Archangel

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #15 on: 13 August 2017, 14:34:29 »
No. Whole units are supposed to have turned pirate rather then the Clans, since then there haven't really been times when large(ish) military units would have felt the need to turn to piracy in great numbers since, with the exception of the Jihad, and those would have been units fighting for the WoB. Yeah, I doubt many of them turned to piracy, given that the bulk of them (Militia members) wouldn't be in (much) trouble, they're not turning in great numbers.

Other than Vinson's Vigilantes and Fuchida's Fusiliers, what other units turned to piracy wholesale during the Clan Invasion?  I believe you are overestimating that number.  I was merely pointing out that there were several conflicts following the Clan Invasion that fed 'new blood' into the disreputable field of pirating to help keep it going which contradicts your claim that there weren't a lot of 'new blood' in the post-3052 years.

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There's a limit to that. Both in how much material you can supply and you also have to find front men.

Of course that depends upon the resources of the sponsor with the WoB likely being the greatest sponsor of pirates.  Regardless of whether a secretly government sponsored black bag pirate group was meant to operate for only a single raid or an ongoing campaign they still pirates count as pirates.

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By this point BA have been in the IS for 50 years, it's no more unrealistic then them having 'Mechs, in fact it's probably a bit more likely.

Never said it was unrealistic just that BA would generally be of limited value depending upon the pirate groups' preferred MO and whether the groups can acquire a type of BA that can help them (ex.:  Grenadiers are too bulk, lack JJs and most variants have the wrong weapons to help a pirate group whose focus is on attacking shipping).  Pirates groups will obviously have more difficulties acquiring spare parts for one specific type of BA let alone if they field multiple types.  Additional issues include increased acquisition/maintenance/repair costs (less money to be split up among unit members), take up more room than regular infantry on ground transports or space transports (reducing available room for loot), take time to load up (especially problematic if one is under attack), etc.

Pirate groups that do field BA are likely to limit the number they deploy, probably no more than a platoon in order to limit costs and as an ace in the hole, and a likely to only deploy them when really needed.  In most cases where the BA could be of use and 'Mechs/aerospace would be overkill, the pirates are more likely to use disposable cannon fodder (aka infantry) in order to cull the weak, cowardly and unlucky (not to mention reducing the number of shares that need to be paid out  >:D) rather than risk a hard to replace resource (same reason pirates using shuttles in boarding attacks rather than DropShips).
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ajcbm

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #16 on: 14 August 2017, 07:38:18 »
Pirates would be present in strength in 3145. Remember, peace is not universal. The only area where pirates would have a hard time is the Lyran Commonwealth. Everyone else is either fighting or preparing to fight a war.

I believe BA would be present but very limited. Maintenance and spare parts are the problem. Its the same reason pirates won't have ER PPCs or other advanced tech. Even if you had one, how do you fix them?

Archangel

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #17 on: 14 August 2017, 21:23:29 »
Pirates would be present in strength in 3145. Remember, peace is not universal. The only area where pirates would have a hard time is the Lyran Commonwealth. Everyone else is either fighting or preparing to fight a war.

The Lyran military (and their exiled Wolf allies) are on the ropes after taking heavy damage from the Falcons, the Horses, the Marik Commonwealth and the Wolves.  While they may have successfully defended both Tharkad and Hesperus II, both victories were pyrrhic victories costing them invaluable men and machines and they can't spare any units to hunt pirates while they desperately try to rebuild their shattered military.  That makes Lyran worlds (especially those towards the Periphery) prime targets for pirates.
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Colt Ward

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #18 on: 14 August 2017, 21:46:58 »
Pirates would be present in strength in 3145. Remember, peace is not universal. The only area where pirates would have a hard time is the Lyran Commonwealth. Everyone else is either fighting or preparing to fight a war.

I believe BA would be present but very limited. Maintenance and spare parts are the problem. Its the same reason pirates won't have ER PPCs or other advanced tech. Even if you had one, how do you fix them?

In the 3060s Hopper Morrison operated IIRC two regiments of SL-era mechs he found in a cache.  Even after Able's Aces trashed a good chunk of his force he still fielded Star League designs.  Susie Ryan operated a lance of Clan mechs and was even able to repair damage to them.  Lady Death's crew was able to build their own light mech design in the Brigand as well as operate advanced designs.

The Bailey Armored Car was produced, created in 3062, because of a raid by GDL Std wearing robbers on Knox who stole a payroll.  By the 3060s BA are no longer extremely rare items that can only be found in Elite House units and a few mercs . . . they have spread far and wide.  They are on the black & gray markets.  They have made their way into corporate security forces.  By the 3130s they had made their way into the hands of even rebel/pirate factions as they formed in the break up of the Republic.
Colt Ward
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #19 on: 14 August 2017, 22:30:19 »
 I'd imagine mech owners who didn't want to hand over their mechs made for natural recruits to pirate bands.

SteelRaven

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #20 on: 14 August 2017, 23:49:58 »
I'd imagine mech owners who didn't want to hand over their mechs made for natural recruits to pirate bands.
Merc units and Solaris VII are the more likely choices though a pirates career starts at some time
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SCC

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #21 on: 15 August 2017, 02:50:05 »
I'd imagine mech owners who didn't want to hand over their mechs made for natural recruits to pirate bands.
If you feel that much about owning a 'Mech you're probably more likely to move or try and get permission to keep that 'Mech then go pirate. In the real world what you propose would be like someone who supports marijuana legalization going out and killing some cops.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #22 on: 15 August 2017, 16:10:04 »
If you feel that much about owning a 'Mech you're probably more likely to move or try and get permission to keep that 'Mech then go pirate. In the real world what you propose would be like someone who supports marijuana legalization going out and killing some cops.

Well that escalated quickly.  Without going into real world politics here..

If a mech-owner is being told to hand over his ride to maybe get "fair" compensation in trade, maybe he'll go along with it.  Maybe he'll be forced to go along with it at gun point.  OTOH maybe he lives in one of the "evil" realms that only paid lip service to the Pax Republica but maybe he lives in a realm like the Republic, FedSuns, or LyrCom where the governments took it more seriously.   It'll almost assuredly be cheaper and easier to join a local pirate gang and go "Wolverines!" on his own government rather than going to the bother of defecting to House Kurita or Liao.  Especially when we're talking about a widespread, systematic program like the Swords to Ploughshares is described as being more or less Inner Sphere-wide.  You don't have to have an existing pirate gang nearby... there'll be disaffected warriors who own their own mechs scattered throughout your home region and they can band together to form new pirate gangs in response. 

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SteelRaven

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #23 on: 16 August 2017, 00:42:51 »
Well that escalated quickly.

To be fair, your suggesting someone becoming a violent criminal and a wanted man over night vs a legitimate change in carriers. I know allot of people still romanticize pirates but they have always been violent criminals in the BTU and the last resort for most, not the first. At the same time, your not too far off considering anyone backing the Blackist didn't have many options other than running to the Periphery and possibly turning to a life of crime or working with existing criminals.   
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SCC

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #24 on: 16 August 2017, 03:49:28 »
And isn't one of the reason for banning personal 'Mechs pirates? Really smart move there.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #25 on: 16 August 2017, 06:01:51 »
To be fair, your suggesting someone becoming a violent criminal and a wanted man over night vs a legitimate change in carriers. I know allot of people still romanticize pirates but they have always been violent criminals in the BTU and the last resort for most, not the first. At the same time, your not too far off considering anyone backing the Blackist didn't have many options other than running to the Periphery and possibly turning to a life of crime or working with existing criminals.

In the BTU, violence is a socially acceptable expression (ever since the Ares Conventions, anyway).  Jumping into your mech and shooting/stomping is more or less analogous to suing someone in our real world.  Pirates get bounties on their heads ostensibly for violent acts, but "in reality" they're the enemy of civilization moreso because they're armed and they're not under any governmental oversight.   In the BTU, Pirate also means the same thing as Bandit and Partisan. 

And if piracy is your last resort before losing your mech, well there'll be some who pick it.  Not every mechwarrior who gets a "hand over your mech" letter from the government will choose to be a pirate instead, but some always will.   It's easier than defecting.

Also, the periphery has nothing to do with the convo per se.  Pirate Kings may live there, but pirate bands exist everywhere.  You don't have to travel to the periphery to join (or start) a pirate band.  Case in point: Pirates like Bannson's Raiders, Dragon's Fury, Steel Wolves, and etc were all based in the Republic.

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #26 on: 16 August 2017, 07:14:41 »
If you feel that much about owning a 'Mech you're probably more likely to move or try and get permission to keep that 'Mech then go pirate. In the real world what you propose would be like someone who supports...
...the right to bear arms. Think about that, no further hints from me.

Power armour might be considered ideal in fact for fringe groups of all kinds as
1) there are commercial sources available from which "technicals" can be jury-rigged
2) they are less conspicuous than a Mech
3) they are less maintenance and resource intensive
4) they may have been overlooked in the Mech-centric Ploughshares initiative

That being said, black market Mechs are a staple of the Battletech universe; I don't want to see them go away and I don't think they will. Like black market weapons in real life: where there's a will and lots of cash, there's a way.

SCC

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #27 on: 17 August 2017, 02:16:32 »
...the right to bear arms. Think about that, no further hints from me.
Was trying to avoid that, for likely to reason you are, a gun owner living in a city that has passed a law requiring all gun owning citizens to get a permit in response to a mass shooting or our hypothetical 'Mech owner has 4 options:

1) Get a permit. Now this might actually be difficult, for various reasons, some good, some bad, but it is, at least in theory, possible.
2) Hide the gun/'Mech.
3) Move.
4) Commit another mass shooting/Become a pirate.

Some people advocating going straight to number 4 without exploring these other options. Also note that to become a pirate, at least one who lasts for more then a couple of months before he's hunted down, you're going to need a DropShip AND a JumpShips, meaning you have the ability to move (Or have some friends who are willing to go along with you, and why would they prefer piracy over moving?)

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Re: 3100s Pirate Shift
« Reply #28 on: 17 August 2017, 03:32:55 »
Yeah, and before we continue I agree that guns and Mechs are arguably different enough that its not the best example either, but its almost the best case study we have to work with.

Well the problem here is not simply a matter of permits, Stone's ploughshares initiative was outright disarmament. Option 1 does not apply. Even the issue of registration and increased regulation - not even to the point of compensated disarmament - is sensitive enough that we're sitting here talking in circles. Now what would actual disarmament be like in the feudal 31st Century? The people who are giving up those weapons are landed gentry, pillars of the community, in fact with a strong use-case for those Mechs to put down bandits and for planetary defence - they probably helped Stone get rid of the Blakists and are still living in fear of reprisal. Remember this is a universe where more often than not a planet can be threatened by sudden Mech raids... and now Stone is saying "Give up the Mechs, trust in the State to protect you"! However rationally doomed to failure, its not unlikely that some people would have turned to their weapons when faced with such an ultimatum. We know this is a distinct possibility IRL, whether such actions make sense or not. In the BT world, perhaps these influential leaders hoped that the Republic could be compelled to come to a deal if they put up enough of a fight.

As for pirates - well, we know they exist, even those with Jumpships and Dropships. (They call em "pirate points" for a reason.) Don't think hillbilly survivalists or apocalypticists, think of hotter, wartorn areas of the world, where everybody contracts mercenaries private security contractors to move around town, and you try hard not to go outside of town without IFVs or MRAPs. That, I think, is the typical setting of a BT border world.