Author Topic: Terran Space Navy Ships  (Read 2777 times)

Maingunnery

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Terran Space Navy Ships
« on: 07 August 2017, 14:04:55 »

There is very little detail about the Terran Space Navy (2120-2299) and their various ships.
I would like to flesh it out a bit with you all in a timeline. So far I have have been making some assumptions:

Assumption 1: Obsolete (previous generation) military designs are downgraded for civilian usage.
- We have several examples of Aquilla JumpShips. The earliest is the military TAS Charger (2122), the civilian version is introduced in the next design generation in 2148.
- Several other primitive JS class names that haven't yet been fleshed out, have military sounding names: Clipper and Liberator.
- Thought: Keeping an outdated design in civilian use will also keep the slips/yards that make them in business, this would guarantee that companies would get their investment back.


Assumption 2: The Terran Space Navy kept themselves at the forefront of ship design, thus they have at least one new design in every generation.
- The Primitive JumpShip Maximum Weight Table (IO p128) shows most early innovation to be with the Terran Alliance. Only at the end of the TA, do the houses and periphery begin construction. With the houses maybe inheriting an older design and the Periphery creating the 'Uma' perhaps?
- Both the Athena and Cruiser WarShips were originally based upon theoretical work in the TA.


Assumption 3: There are primitive versions of capital lasers and capital missiles.
- Art of the Charger seems to show Capital lasers
- The fluff of the Cruiser and Athena mentioned that the designers of this period planned to use Lasers and Nuclear armed missiles.



-- Preliminary Time line --
wild thoughts

Generation 1: 2110-2129
Max weight 100,000

Military Aquilla (TAS Charger) 2122: Art indicates (12 capital? lasers, possible cap missiles). The art of the TAS Philadelphia looks to have missile tubes on the center line.


Generation 2: 2130-2149
Max weight 150,000

Clipper Jumpship (Standard)      150.000?   2132?
Civilian Aquilla 2148: Trades in DS bays and weapons for more cargo & passengers


Generation 3: 2150-2164
Max weight 200,000
2150 Spheroid DropShuttle can now fully fill DS Bays
2151 JS Engine/Control improvements


Generation 4: 2165-2174
Max weight 250,000
In this generation there seems to be a niche for a heavily armored monitor/PWS type DS, but this niche effectively vanishes after the introduction of NACs (2165-2200).


Generation 5: 2175-2199
Max weight 350,000
2175 Aerodyne DropShuttle can now fully fill DS Bays


Generation 6: 2200-2299
Max weight 500,000
2200 Primitive Jump sail
2201 JS Engine/Control improvements
2251 JS Engine/Control improvements

Possible primitive Vincent predecessor.
- Initial mark number is very high (could be inherited)
- NACs are invented
- Vincent has low armor, on level with prim JS.


Rebel Aquilla (Minelayer version) 2236
Civilian Aquilla (AC/5 version) 2250+

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kato

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Re: Terran Space Navy Ships
« Reply #1 on: 13 August 2017, 06:24:29 »
- Thought: Keeping an outdated design in civilian use will also keep the slips/yards that make them in business, this would guarantee that companies would get their investment back.
That's a relative thing. Using the replacement times from SO as a basis, building a ship should take anywhere between 7 and 15 months. Around 11 ships per decade, or likely the amount that the Terran Navy actually did have built in its first decade.

One consideration:

Even if you only add another yard every decade (sounds somewhat reasonable with the jumpship numbers we see for the time), keep a shipyard in production for 40 years, keep all ships operational for a hundred years and assume each yard typically produces a single design then until the Demarcation Declaration rolls around you get up to 429 ships (of up to 12 designs) operational plus 33 first-generationers (of 2 of the same designs) discarded.

Which should be plenty enough for that timeframe though. With that you can almost park one at every colony within a hundred light years as of the third Alliance Grand Survey...

Maingunnery

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Re: Terran Space Navy Ships
« Reply #2 on: 14 August 2017, 15:23:44 »
That can work.

Mark 1: Military Aquilla (TAS Charger) 2122
Mark 2: Military Aquilla (variant 1) 2132
Mark 3: Military Aquilla (variant 2) 2140
Mark 4: Civilian Aquilla (non-ac/5) 2148


Edit: Also having large numbers of Companies/yards in Terra at the time seems to be supported by the fluff behind the Liberty JumpShip (XTRO Prim 3).
« Last Edit: 14 August 2017, 15:30:33 by Maingunnery »
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kato

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Re: Terran Space Navy Ships
« Reply #3 on: 14 August 2017, 16:14:15 »
Large numbers is relative. Going through Sarna we have at least two yards though:

First yard: Individual ships / prototypes (owned by McDonnell/Lockheed)
2107 to 2116 : (2 ships) TAS Pathfinder and TAS Ark (no others!)
2117 to 2126 : (3 ships) more individual colony ships like TAS Liberator ?
2127 to 2136 : (3 ships) more individual colony ships like TAS Liberator - perhaps also a dedicated second survey ship ?
2137 to 2146 : (3 ships) more individual colony ships like TAS Liberator ?
[production conveivably 1 every 40 months / first decade 1 every 80 months or so - due to prototyping]

Second yard (initiated with Terran Space Navy founding in 2120, "in Luna orbit", owned by Boeing?):
2117 to 2126 : (3 ships) TAS Charger series - first three, fourth building?
2127 to 2136 : (6 ships) TAS Charger series - finishing to six ships, plus perhaps three Mark 2 and a fourth building afterwards?
2137 to 2146 : (6 ships) moore Aquillas ? finishing Mark 2 series to six ships, followed by three Mark 3
2147 to 2156 : (6 ships) mooore Aquillas? five Mark 4 ?
[production conveivably 1 every 20 months - slightly below optimal]

Next yard i'd propose from ca 2127 building colony ships with some optimization towards being escorted in the wake of Liberator; build time like yard 2.

Above would already give us in the first three decades:
- 2 ships by 2116 (prototypes: TAS Pathfinder / TAS Ark)
- 8 by 2126 (incl. TAS Liberator and three TAS Charger types)
- 23 by 2136 (6 are TAS Chargers, 3 Aquilla Mk2, TAS Pathfinder + 1 survey ship; TAS Ark, 5 early colony ships like TAS Liberator + 6 updated colony ships?) - 1 lost
(note: gives us 50/50 split escort/colony after Liberator loss + two ships surveying)

So we basically already have two classes to design here, one survey, one colony class...
« Last Edit: 14 August 2017, 16:23:30 by kato »

Daryk

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Re: Terran Space Navy Ships
« Reply #4 on: 14 August 2017, 19:45:44 »
I like your math, Kato...

kato

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Re: Terran Space Navy Ships
« Reply #5 on: 15 August 2017, 13:34:28 »
Quick spreadsheet time with that kinda math: Overlook.

Thoughts?

Daryk

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Re: Terran Space Navy Ships
« Reply #6 on: 15 August 2017, 21:21:45 »
Very nice, but I think it could use a legend to explain the color codes...

kato

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Re: Terran Space Navy Ships
« Reply #7 on: 16 August 2017, 14:56:11 »
Have it fleshed out a bit for the 1-yard-per-decade version. The below is on a slightly modified math basis, with 9.5 years between yards, yards mostly producing the same or a similar design throughout their service life, and build times lowering so that with a new yard after 2200 we could in theory approach the optimum minimum construction time at around 9 months. These little adaptions are mostly to keep it simple while keeping construction such that we can introduce certain ships as in canon. We do end up with 159 ships by 2200 - and after that we're pretty much adding five ships every year. By the Demarcation Declaration we'd still be at around 340, a bit less but still a good number. The fun part about doing it this way is that if we need more ships at any point of time we just add another yard somewhere...

Thus basically, by 2200, we'd have a 60-ship Navy that runs:
  • about 4 first-generation jumpships like TAS Pathfinder or TAS Ark
  • the six TAS Charger series Aquillas
  • some 36 further-developed "mainline" Aquillas (Mk2/Mk3) as the mainstay of the fleet for patrol and escort. At least 10 Mk2 at 100 kilotons like Charger, possibly a small series of 150 kiloton Mk3 "Super-Aquillas" from which the civilian version is derived.
  • two "cruisers" built along the lines of Athena as an abandoned line in the 2170s - though still limited to 150 kilotons due to the yard that builds them.
  • ten auxiliary ships as mobile repair ships and for base construction - these can be very large in comparison at up to 350 kilotons.
Beyond that we have civilian actors. These would get 99 ships:
  • 9 first-generation jumpers similar to TAS Liberator
  • 27 second-generation jumpers up to 200 kilotons
  • 4 third-generation jumpers up to 350 kilotons
  • 45 unarmed Aquillas in civilian hands, including around 4-5 in the hands of some state actors below the TA; Boeing Interstellar would keep the design in production after the military contract ceases.
  • the Ryan Cartel operating a first batch of 16 ships - also being the first 350 kiloton jumpers. That's mostly a placeholder though.

By the time the first Aquillas hit civilian hands in 2148 there'd be only 8 civilian ships (+2 building) vs 22 ships in the TSN, which would initially also be used for colonizing. By 2170, when construction of the first "cruiser" is decided the TSN would already be rather large at 46 ships, while there would be 28 civilian ships around; the Aquilla Mk4 sale to civilians, mostly after 2165 would really suddenly flip numbers over the next thirty years.

The TSN in this scenario wouldn't really procure much new ships - safe for auxiliaries and the pair of cruisers - after 2165 and until the 2200s, basically riding on their Aquillas while they're reasonably fresh. The armored monitor type dropship mentioned could see some use as an alternative military escalation for exactly this timeframe.

As for heavy weapons, i could see them on the Charger due to paranoia about what's out there - due to what's available mostly primitive cap missiles. Perhaps then keep them off the Aquilla Mk2/Mk3 subsequently (by the 2130s people should feel reasonably assured there's no aliens... nearby), and reintroduce the heavy armament with the pair of cruisers - then focused on space-to-ground like Athena.

VhenRa

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Re: Terran Space Navy Ships
« Reply #8 on: 21 August 2017, 01:28:51 »
The fun part about doing it this way is that if we need more ships at any point of time we just add another yard somewhere...
Going to need to massively do this. Considering Samantha Calderon pulled 25 jumpships out of her families ruined finances and this isn't considered that ridiculous.


Honestly, the impression I get from that era is that Jumpships were not at all rare.
« Last Edit: 21 August 2017, 01:30:23 by VhenRa »

kato

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Re: Terran Space Navy Ships
« Reply #9 on: 21 August 2017, 12:07:47 »
Well, with the above equation we'd get somewhere around 5.6 jumpships built per year by her time, with at least around 320 ships built by then. A single extra shipyard - past 2200 - already adds up to 50 ships. If we doubled the number of shipyards operational concurrently perhaps after 2170 we'd get 740 ships already by 2245.

It doesn't really say she had them newly built; she could just snatch up options on the market, perhaps even the outdated first-generation ships that had hit a hundred years by then - like the first civilian Aquillas, of which she had at least two in her fleet. The low number of "volunteers", less than 100 per ship, also points to these not having been any sort of dedicated colonization ships. Well, at least that's more believable than her assets being worth some 500 billion C-Bills by the time of the Outer Reaches Rebellion...

For the TSN itself, one indication for size is the fleet dispatched in 2236; the Second Interstellar Combined Assault Force consisting of "several squadrons of FTL strike cruisers, assault carriers and assorted transports"; that'd indicate overall numbers in the dozens, though not in the hundreds, while the overall fluff indicates there would be multiple such forces (though perhaps not more than a few).

Maingunnery

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Re: Terran Space Navy Ships
« Reply #10 on: 21 August 2017, 12:12:41 »

Such a large batch in one go does make me think that they were likely old de-militarized Navy ships.
Which is quite common in RL.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Terran Space Navy Ships
« Reply #11 on: 23 August 2017, 16:27:44 »
The TSN in this scenario wouldn't really procure much new ships - safe for auxiliaries and the pair of cruisers - after 2165 and until the 2200s, basically riding on their Aquillas while they're reasonably fresh. The armored monitor type dropship mentioned could see some use as an alternative military escalation for exactly this timeframe.


Worked it out, it does rely on custom primitive weapons:

Code: [Select]
                    AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                               * CUSTOM WEAPONS

Class/Model/Name:  Cerberus (Monitor DS)
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 2165
Vessel Type:       Spheroid DropShuttle
Rules:             Primitive
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              9.500 tons
Power Plant:       Primitive 2165
Safe Thrust:       3
Maximum Thrust:    5
Armor Type:        Primitive
Armament:         
    3 Whale Shark*
   50 Primitive Chem SL*
   10 Primitive Chem LL*
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Cerberus (Monitor DS)
Mass:              9.500 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                        3.335,00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 3
      Maximum Thrust: 5
Structural Integrity: 30                                               570,00
Total Heat Sinks:    190 Single                                        125,00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                   1.020,00
[7,6 tons/day/G]
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:                129,00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   ,00
Armor Type:  Primitive (1.219 total armor pts)                         108,00
                           Standard Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                350
   Left/Right Sides:                 304/304
   Aft:                                 261

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Small Craft (6) with 2 doors                              1.200,00
   Bay 2:  Cargo (1) with 3 doors                                      527,00

Escape Pods:  9 (7 tons each)                                           63,00

Crew and Passengers:
      3 Officers (3 minimum)                                            30,00
      6 Crew (2 minimum)                                                42,00
     13 Gunners (13 minimum)                                            91,00
     30 Bay Personnel                                                     ,00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Whale Shark*(30 msls)    Nose        12     12     12     --   60  2.100,00
10 Primitive Chem SL*(240)  FL/R     3(30)     --     --     --   20     28,00
2 Primitive Chem LL*(40)    FL/R     2(16)  2(16)     --     --   32     36,00
10 Primitive Chem SL*(240)  AL/R     3(30)     --     --     --   20     28,00
2 Primitive Chem LL*(40)    AL/R     2(16)  2(16)     --     --   32     36,00
10 Primitive Chem SL*(240)  Aft      3(30)     --     --     --   10     14,00
2 Primitive Chem LL*(40)    Aft      2(16)  2(16)     --     --   16     18,00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                              Heat: 190       9.500,00
Tons Left:                                                               0,00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        318.570.000 C-Bills
Battle Value:      7.850
Cost per BV:       40.582,17
Weapon Value:      7.304 (Ratio = ,93)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 311;  MRV = 158;  LRV = 70;  ERV = 22
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 76.363
                   (58.994 Structure, 11.862 Life Support, 5.507 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 23.747  (31% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      MP: 3,  Armor/Structure: 21 / 20
                   Damage PB/M/L: 9/3/-,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: DL;  Point Value: 79
                   Specials: sph
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