Author Topic: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)  (Read 16672 times)

Phaedros

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ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« on: 05 November 2017, 22:56:18 »
In 2nd SW, there's a blurb which is attributed to Loremaster Stephan Roshak in 3250 (it was noted that the Republic had compiled info 100 years prior in 3150), he was addressing the blurb to the ilKhan, and upon doing some Sarna-Fu, I discovered that Roshak is a Jade Falcon bloodname.

So now I'm beginning to wonder if the Falcons swoop in (see what I did there?) and beat the Wolf Clan after Alaric defeats Stone... O.o

Thoughts?

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #1 on: 05 November 2017, 23:37:44 »
That's certainly a point that's been noticed and hypothesized about.

Personally, it always seemed to me that the Clans were originally meant to be presented as a single faction.  Clans Wolf and Jade Falcon are in the same faction just as the Avalon Hussars and Crucis Lancers are part of the same faction.  (Clan Wolf:Clan Jade Falcon::Crucis Lancers:Avalon Hussars and not Clan Wolf:Clan Jade Falcon::House Davion:House Kurita)

If that were ever true, FASA certainly seemed to have since derailed that train and inflicted severe faction bloat upon the IP by beginning to treat the Clans as discrete entities rather than subfactions of the same faction.  I don't have any evidence to support my hope, but I do hope that with (or after) ilClan the Clans are collectively one faction again, that just happens to be called ilClan rather than this House or that one. 

I could see the Clan totems all being retired, even the totem of the victorious Clan, and all Clan society ultimately grouping all together under the direction of the Khans of the ilClan.  What exactly that means for the Clanners that have gone "sphereoid" and the Great Houses I dunno, but once there's an ilClan I don't suppose there's any reason to continue to maintain distinctions between Wolves and Jade Falcons.  (assuming any survive... as it does seem possible either might only become ilClan over the corpse of the other).


Edit:  As for the significance of the Roshak bloodname:  It could even be something completely meaningless.  Following the Jihad and Wars of Reavings, Bloodnames really no longer remained faction exclusive.  The scientist castes just simply had to cross pollinate even the exclusive names in order to keep what remained viable.  Even in 3150 you can probably already have a Roshak born in a Wolf creche.  Maybe even a Kerensky in a Falcon creche.
« Last Edit: 05 November 2017, 23:45:11 by Tai Dai Cultist »

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #2 on: 06 November 2017, 03:41:57 »
Yeah, just because Roshak is a Jade Falcon name in 3067, doesn't necessarily mean its a Jade Falcon name in 3250. The little blurb is a teaser, but doesn't really give much in the way of concrete info (much like the teaser in the Succession War book).

Heck, Kael Pershaw served as Loremaster to the Clan Council when there wasn't a Jade Falcon ilKhan, so even if Roshak remains a Jade Falcon Bloodname, you could have something similar happening.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #3 on: 06 November 2017, 06:55:33 »
I thought the ilClan was suppose to be not unlike the Star League where the Clan who became IlClan would run the rest, not unlike the original Clan Council. The famous Star Colonel Hazen who was Adrien Pryde's nemiess and man in the dark, who worked with the Falcon's Watch and later as assistant to the IKhan of the Clan Council.  Mind you there no IlClan, but the lead Clan leader is IlKhan.  So members of other Clans cross multiClan lines to serve. 

It would make sense with IlClan to intially operate like that.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #4 on: 06 November 2017, 14:29:32 »
could just be that whoever became Ilclan first isn't the same one that is ilClan when the in-universe book was written.

or it could be that whoever became Ilclan integrated the rest into an overarching structure, drawing on the other clans to fill positions within the resulting bureaucracy.. (the way the early chinese emperors did with the various city-states in their empires. which served as both integration and hostages against the city-state's god behavior)
« Last Edit: 06 November 2017, 14:32:50 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #5 on: 06 November 2017, 16:48:24 »
In the aftermath of the Clan Invasion, the ilKhan was a Wolf, and the Loremaster of the Clans was a Jade Falcon. People are reading too much into the importance of the name. The Loremaster of the Clans is typically the eldest of all the Loremasters. He or she would report to the ilKhan, regardless of what Clan each of them comes from.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #6 on: 11 November 2017, 12:56:01 »
One thing people are forgetting is that for Inner Sphere Clans there is no IlKhan, there is the Council of 6, but they don't elect an IlKhan, or even a Loremaster for them all.  By 3145 the Council of 6 has become increasingly irrelevant.

For there to be a Loremaster and an IlKhan and for one of those positions to be filled in by an IS Clan indicates something big did change.  Not something to be dismissed.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #7 on: 11 November 2017, 13:06:42 »
Likely the reason some are dismissing the statement is due to the possibility that the timeline that would be correct in may not come to pass.  The IlClan book potentially being redone has that effect on people.

So much is up in the air right now that speculation over this feels frustratingly useless to me.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #8 on: 11 November 2017, 13:08:57 »
Likely the reason some are dismissing the statement is due to the possibility that the timeline that would be correct in may not come to pass.  The IlClan book potentially being redone has that effect on people.

So much is up in the air right now that speculation over this feels frustratingly useless to me.

I don't think that ilClan is being redone (again) ever since the gnashing of teeth back in the 2013-2014 timeframe.  From what we've heard is they're priming the pump.. they're getting other releases that dovetail and build upon ilClan ready to go too so we have a coherent release schedule rather than a iClan book then nothing again afterwards.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #9 on: 11 November 2017, 13:12:26 »
I hope that's the case, but the way it's been stated has been ambiguous enough - and others tossing in their (almost insider) 2 cents - and has made a bit of a mess of things.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #10 on: 11 November 2017, 16:49:18 »
I don't think that ilClan is being redone (again) ever since the gnashing of teeth back in the 2013-2014 timeframe.  From what we've heard is they're priming the pump.. they're getting other releases that dovetail and build upon ilClan ready to go too so we have a coherent release schedule rather than a iClan book then nothing again afterwards.

Note: it's just my take, but the way I've understood what Brent has said about it is that he wants the release of ilClan to be more of an event and not just plop it out there.

Also, whatever rewrites there may be...sound more like he wants to give the book a more "you are there" feel rather than the dry past history feel.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #11 on: 18 November 2017, 19:20:03 »
Note: it's just my take, but the way I've understood what Brent has said about it is that he wants the release of ilClan to be more of an event and not just plop it out there.

Also, whatever rewrites there may be...sound more like he wants to give the book a more "you are there" feel rather than the dry past history feel.

Can't wait to see it and hopefully the Home Clans will return.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #12 on: 18 November 2017, 19:31:15 »
The premise of the clans is that they are in a race to retake Terra so they can be the Ilclan so they have Ilkhan perpetually. Instead of a vote...

Like Tai Dai Cultist said. I think when they introduced the Clans that they were just one entity with different clans forming sub units. Similar to an Inner Sphere region. The Lyrans have Skye for instance and the clans have Ghost Bears.

I think the level of warfare between specific clans essentially made each clan a separate faction.... But also, the 5 invading clans taking a successor house sized state changed things pretty drastically too.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #13 on: 28 November 2017, 18:24:41 »
The Clans didn't respect the last few IlKhans during Operation Revival.  Other than gaining the title of IlClan, what makes people think the other clans will respect the dictates of the future IlKhan?  If the IlClan is strong, then I'm sure they will, but in a moment of weakness they'll turn on that clan.  Survival of the fittest, and all that.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #14 on: 29 November 2017, 07:04:04 »
The Clans didn't respect the last few IlKhans during Operation Revival.  Other than gaining the title of IlClan, what makes people think the other clans will respect the dictates of the future IlKhan?  If the IlClan is strong, then I'm sure they will, but in a moment of weakness they'll turn on that clan.  Survival of the fittest, and all that.
I have to agree with that.  IlClan suppose to be the strongest (Clan) not just an elected leader like the previous IlKhans were.
Having a fiery campaign to conquer the heart of the long lost Terran Hegemony / Star League is Trial of Leadership they are looking for i suspect.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #15 on: 08 December 2017, 16:47:41 »
What did you make of the intro in TRO:SW?

It's another report for the IlKhan from Star League Loremaster Stephan Roshak.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #16 on: 08 December 2017, 20:26:20 »
Seems to me there’s an ilClan of some sort but the Republic is an entity as well so maybe part-share of Terra or Terra is neutral
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #17 on: 08 December 2017, 20:47:16 »
it maybe similar to the Dominion from what fluff suggests.
Who knows, that maybe out of step what new developers may have in mind.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #18 on: 09 December 2017, 11:59:01 »
Aside from there being an explicit confirmation that there'll be an ilKhan and implicit confirmation that it'll be a Clan (as opposed to a Clan-Republic Hybrid), here are my biggest take-aways from the intro:

Quote
"Reviewing the BattleMechs herein, I was struck once more by the wisdom of retaining their designations, outward appearance, and combat role among the ’Mechs employed by the ilClan today."

I take this as indication that there is still a rules reboot planned.  If not with the ilClan SB itself, then after that.  This passage is saying that yep, your current minis will still be applicable under the new rules... just if you play in 3250 there's new record sheets under those rules for these new mechs that are in-universe purposefully built to resemble obsolete designs from the AoW-SW eras.

Quote
"Moreover, the re-employment of these older BattleMechs in the arena system has helped quell the inherent hostility and intransigence of the freebirth masses of the Inner Sphere. The enormous change they have experienced has been eased both by these gladiatorial contests and by the sight of familiar ’Mechs competing in them...

Really that whole paragraph is a bombshell.  The quoted and especially the bolded portion says, to the Chicken Little/pessimist in me, that the ilClan appears to have conquered or rules the entire Inner Sphere.  On one hand I can't imagine TBTP removing the Great Houses from the Game of Space Thrones, but then again if I won the lottery and ended up being allowed to buy the entire BattleTech IP *I'd* be tempted to demote the Clans to being small fry of limited consequence, so it's possible I'm just hitching my fandom to the "wrong" post anymore.

Without assuming the worst (where the worst is a BTU with only the Clans and no Great Houses anymore) the paragraph as a whole is certainly painting a picture where the ilClan in 3250 at least has more sway over the Inner Sphere than House Cameron did beyond the borders of their Terran Hegemony during the Star League.  I'm honestly pinning my hopes to the possibility that there's a healthy dose of unreliable authorship to the passage, where the ilClan believes they control the entire Inner Sphere and it's in no way accurate as an in-universe "reality".


« Last Edit: 09 December 2017, 12:01:54 by Tai Dai Cultist »

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #19 on: 09 December 2017, 13:16:02 »

The Great Houses could have pulled their own exodus(es) or became part of the system.

Plenty of possible interesting angles.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #20 on: 09 December 2017, 13:19:03 »
I take this as indication that there is still a rules reboot planned.  If not with the ilClan SB itself, then after that.  This passage is saying that yep, your current minis will still be applicable under the new rules... just if you play in 3250 there's new record sheets under those rules for these new mechs that are in-universe purposefully built to resemble obsolete designs from the AoW-SW eras.

I certainly hope for something like this.
The last thing I want to deal with is my hundreds of mini's all being useless in an era of Ares Tripods using Clan Tech.

I'd like to see something where we get a single new configuration of each old Chassis for use in the 3250 era.

Something like a Guillotine-3250 that uses a Next Gen Clan-ERPPC & 4x ER-Clan MPLs with TC, C3S assistance & a pair of Clan Streak-6's in the CT with Compact Gyro, etc etc.
Or an Archer with Quad-iATM9's & 4 cERMLs with a 1 ton TC.... etc etc.
Or a Jagermech-7-3250 using quad cLBXRAC-5's to spew out 120 bb's of crit seeking love per round.

Sure, you can still use your old Guillotine-5M or Archer-5S, but, compared to the newest 3250 model they like Primitives would be to the SLDF-Royals.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #21 on: 09 December 2017, 14:21:29 »
I certainly hope for something like this.
The last thing I want to deal with is my hundreds of mini's all being useless in an era of Ares Tripods using Clan Tech.

I'd like to see something where we get a single new configuration of each old Chassis for use in the 3250 era.

Something like a Guillotine-3250 that uses a Next Gen Clan-ERPPC & 4x ER-Clan MPLs with TC, C3S assistance & a pair of Clan Streak-6's in the CT with Compact Gyro, etc etc.
Or an Archer with Quad-iATM9's & 4 cERMLs with a 1 ton TC.... etc etc.
Or a Jagermech-7-3250 using quad cLBXRAC-5's to spew out 120 bb's of crit seeking love per round.

Sure, you can still use your old Guillotine-5M or Archer-5S, but, compared to the newest 3250 model they like Primitives would be to the SLDF-Royals.

Hope you are right with regards to the mechs, given the Thunderbolt pilot mentioned in the intro i'm assuming the great house families are still around in some shape or form.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #22 on: 09 December 2017, 17:09:52 »
The quoted and especially the bolded portion says, to the Chicken Little/pessimist in me, that the ilClan appears to have conquered or rules the entire Inner Sphere.  On one hand I can't imagine TBTP removing the Great Houses from the Game of Space Thrones, but then again if I won the lottery and ended up being allowed to buy the entire BattleTech IP *I'd* be tempted to demote the Clans to being small fry of limited consequence, so it's possible I'm just hitching my fandom to the "wrong" post anymore.

Without assuming the worst (where the worst is a BTU with only the Clans and no Great Houses anymore) the paragraph as a whole is certainly painting a picture where the ilClan in 3250 at least has more sway over the Inner Sphere than House Cameron did beyond the borders of their Terran Hegemony during the Star League. 

Why would you even begin to think that's the case?

The Star League's dominion over the sphere was a thing that explicitly involved the houses. I see no reason that a third league under the leadership of a clan should require their extermination.
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #23 on: 09 December 2017, 18:31:39 »
I’d love it if the Clans ruled the Inner Sphere and the other factions were subservient or things of the past.  With names like Davion, Kurtis, Liao, Steiner and Marik names of the underground movement against the Clans
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #24 on: 09 December 2017, 18:34:58 »
Plot Twist:  The IlClan is actually the Steel Vipers, who it turned out did NOT die.  It's been lies the whole time.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #25 on: 09 December 2017, 18:57:38 »
Why would you even begin to think that's the case?

The Star League's dominion over the sphere was a thing that explicitly involved the houses. I see no reason that a third league under the leadership of a clan should require their extermination.

Well there's outright extermination, and there's disenfranchisement.  What I worry about isn't so much the former as the latter.

But why would I think what I think?

1. There is indeed clarification that the ilClan will actually BE Clan.  I know, there was always slim chances the Republic would defeat the Wolves and take the title of ilClan for itself to dictate to the Clans how they'd behave from now on.  Now that's gone from slim to none, which is a minor shift but it's not insignificant.
2. Based on the language intended for the ilKhan's eyes, the ilClan appears to still consider itself separate from and superior to the native Sphereoids.  That would make a Dominion-like hybrid rather implausible for the ilClan.
3. Going back to the bolded text in the quote, the IS has gone thru "enormous change".  If it were just the Republic falling to Clan control, that wouldn't rise to the level of "enormous change".  And I find it unlikely that the 5 Houses simply going through a hundred years of "PeaceTech" with the ilClan would count as "enormous change" either.
4. The ilClan controls the Inner Sphere to the point that it apparently controls who gets to climb into a cockpit of a mech.  And uses that power to leverage native populations to vent their grudges against each other.
5.  Mechs looking like mechs from the past provides a bridge of familiarity for the native sphereoids to the period prior to the ilClandom.  This reiterates point 3 and enhances it.  Things in 3250 are so unlike 3150 or 3050 that the ilClan is broadcasting mech fights explicitly in part to tickle the sheeples' memberberries.
6. We saw a Great House name called out in the cited Gunslinger.  We don't know what a Gunslinger means in the context of the ilClan, but my gut tells me that if the Great Houses still exist at all, they exist because the ilClan lets them exist.  From a pride standpoint, that's little better than not existing at all.  From a meta plotline perspective, if the ilClan achieved complete to near-as-may-as-well-be-complete control of the Inner Sphere, it'd be very sloppy to "resurrect" the Houses as viable opponents for the ilClan in a post "PeaceTech" setting.  You'd require all new opponents for the ilClan to fight, and by that point I'm completely off the BattleTech train.


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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #26 on: 09 December 2017, 21:08:38 »
Let's not assume anything until we read it.

We wouldn't had a cool Succession Wars era without a Star League.  ilClan could just be a new cycle of this sort of events. 

We won't know until they publish the books, never mind 3250 which we may never see at rate were going. 
« Last Edit: 10 December 2017, 09:01:28 by Wrangler »
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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #27 on: 10 December 2017, 07:40:48 »
It should be remembered that the Star League allowed the periphery states to exist as semi-autonomous entities under League guidance after the Reunification war.  Perhaps the ilClan would follow precedent.

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #28 on: 10 December 2017, 10:45:59 »
It should be remembered that the Star League allowed the periphery states to exist as semi-autonomous entities under League guidance after the Reunification war.  Perhaps the ilClan would follow precedent.

I think you are probably correct with that assumption.

Gaiiten

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Re: ilClan Spoiler in 2nd SW? (Possible spoiler)
« Reply #29 on: 10 December 2017, 15:15:27 »
Arena? Gladiators? With Classic Mechs?

ilClan variant of panem et circenes?
Crush yah enumhees, see dem drivun befor you, and hear de lamuntatuns of de veemon!

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