Author Topic: Getting my nephew into Battletech (Read 2057 times)

Wraithcannon · « **on:** 19 January 2018, 11:38:58 »

I am going to give my nephew some of my spare mechs so I can get him hooked on Battletech.

What he is getting:

Banshee
Longbow
Rifleman
Archer
Scorpion
Griffin
Phoenix Hawk
Assassin

I am want to divide them into two equal lances, one Fedsun, one Cappellan, so that he can go head to head with his friends.

I also want to paint them up as 8 different units, 4 Liao and 4 Davion, so that he can field them as border units fighting in a joint operation when they face off in canon battles, or mix and match them when playing with his friends who don't know the universe yet (I want the blue one! What's it called again, a Blastermaster?).

My questions are, how would you split those 8 mechs into "equal" lances for a 4 on 4 battle?

And, which Liao/Davion border units (4 from each faction) would you choose for color schemes?

Era is unimportant, but please no extinct units.

Tai Dai Cultist · « **Reply #1 on:** 19 January 2018, 11:58:15 »

My suggestion:

I'd break the Liao half down as:
Banshee
Archer
Scorpion
Assassin

And the Davion half:
Longbow
Rifleman
Griffin
Phoenix Hawk

The Davions could be painted up as Crucis Lancers... quintisenntially Davionista and easy to paint. Most Liao units also incorporate green, so to keep them visually distinctive you could go with one of the colorful Big Mac regiments. I'm partial to the 5th Regiment as being something easy to paint yet looking dramatically different than a solid olive drab.

If you're looking specifically for lower prestige units, maybe the Syrtis Fusiliers and Confederation Reserve Cavalry. The former still uses a lot of dark green, but the CRC side can be painted up in camo patterns.

Colt Ward · « **Reply #2 on:** 19 January 2018, 18:09:01 »

Might also suggest looking into the plastic Lance Pack boxes. I have bought some for my baby, his first Christmas (4 months old) and he had his first lance which was the Dragoons lance. He now has a company, all still in shrink wrap for him to use when he is older . . . simply b/c they will not break.

Wraithcannon · « **Reply #3 on:** 01 February 2018, 11:19:16 »

Well, after some debate and looking at the Battle values for the introtech versions of the mechs, I've decided to split the lances up like this.

Davion
Banshee 3S 1751
Archer 2S 1393
Phoenix Hawk 1D 1083
Assassin 21 749

4976

Liao
Longbow 7Q 1618
Rifleman 3N 1039
Griffin 1N 1272
Scorpion 1N 1019

4948

Now I just need to decide on CAPCON/FS Border units.

Probably going to go with Death Commandos and 3 of the warrior houses for Liao.

Not sure about Davion yet, maybe Davion Guards, Crucis Lancers for two at least.

RoundTop · « **Reply #4 on:** 01 February 2018, 13:33:48 »

Quote from: Wraithcannon on 01 February 2018, 11:19:16

Well, after some debate and looking at the Battle values for the introtech versions of the mechs, I've decided to split the lances up like this.

Davion
Banshee 3S 1751
Archer 2S 1393
Phoenix Hawk 1D 1083
Assassin 21 749

4976

Liao
Longbow 7Q 1618
Rifleman 3N 1039
Griffin 1N 1272
Scorpion 1N 1019

4948

Now I just need to decide on CAPCON/FS Border units.

Probably going to go with Death Commandos and 3 of the warrior houses for Liao.

Not sure about Davion yet, maybe Davion Guards, Crucis Lancers for two at least.

I'm going to warn you on this one. Even though the BV numbers are near the same, the Davion lance will be much easier to play. The Liao lance has units that have to be played right. The Longbow is all range and too slow to get out of the way. the Rifleman has paper for armour and massive heat issues. The griffin is good, but must stay at range 4+, and the scorpion has the same problem of the griffin, but can't torso twist and has no jump jets. They hit hard (big guns), but they have to be managed right.

In contract the davion lance has a killer assault mech in the Banshee (2 PPCs, an AC10, and other backup weapons), the archer has less ammo than the longbow, but moves faster and has 4 medium lasers (and fists to punch with), The pheonix hawk is a very good design in all its forms, and the assassin is surprisingly capable (and fast as heck).

That is the other factor. The fastest Liao unit is the scorpion at 6/9. The Davions have a 6/9/6 and a 7/11/7 unit. They just move faster. So that longbox with its 3/5 movement and LRM20 minimum range is going to have troubles.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #5 on:** 01 February 2018, 20:56:42 »

Yeah, that Banshee will roll right over the top of anything in the opfor that fails to get out of the way.

Also, I'd swap the Phoenix Hawk and Rifleman around: the Rifleman is an iconic Davion mech and swapping it for the P-Hawk gives the Liao force better mobility.

Wraithcannon · « **Reply #6 on:** 02 February 2018, 12:36:44 »

Ok, so if we swap the Rifleman and the PHawk we get this:

Davion
Banshee 3S 1751
Archer 2S 1393
Rifleman 3C 1066
Assassin 21 749

4959

Liao
Longbow 7Q 1618
Scorpion 1N 1019
Griffin 1N 1272
Phoenix Hawk 1 1041

4950

I think I'll let him play the Davion's the first time around, they seem a bit more straightforward.

SpudBot · « **Reply #7 on:** 02 February 2018, 14:42:47 »

Smart, the 3C Rifleman should be easier to play/less overheat risk. Looks to me like Liao is outgunned, but I'll be interested to find out the result!

Simon Landmine · « **Reply #8 on:** 07 February 2018, 19:48:32 »

For fun I just ran a battle between these two lances through MegaMek. Random map gave me quite a tight cityscape, which was interesting - the Assassin and the Griffin spent most of the battle on rooftops. Davion won, as predicted (especially as Liao was Princess-run), but it might have been tighter if the Longbow had been able to fire indirect (Princess can't yet do that), as it spent most of the battle behind buildings, trying to get to the battle - and when it did, the Rifleman blew its leg off. Unfortunately, the Banshee was less effective than expected, as it managed to win the Wrong Place Wrong Time award, due to taking head damage when the Scorpion's SRM ammo went up in round 2, and when in round 3 the Phoenix Hawk's MG ammo was set off by a punch from the Archer, the Banshee lost its head completely (and the Archer took a pair of leg crits that left it limping for the rest of the battle). That Rifleman version is a veritable mugger, though. Next time around I'm going to have a go at controlling the Liao forces, to see whether I can give them a chance.

I might write up a proper AAR with screenshots later.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #9 on:** 07 February 2018, 19:59:33 »

Were you playing with an optional rule that causes ammo explosions to be treated as radius attacks or something?

Simon Landmine · « **Reply #10 on:** 08 February 2018, 21:27:11 »

Now I'm going to have to double-check whether I checked an optional box in MegaMek ... back in a bit ...

Colt Ward · « **Reply #11 on:** 08 February 2018, 22:00:24 »

I HAVE that box checked and have only seen ammo go off once in . . . I do not know how many battles. Part of the reason I made different files for ammo carrier trucks & APCs- all that cargo space was turned into half/full ton MG or SRM ammo to TRY to get those parts to go boom in convoys.

Simon Landmine · « **Reply #12 on:** 08 February 2018, 22:14:43 »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire: It's in TacOps, p78, at the bottom left of the page.

Colt: I'm obviously 'lucky', or something. Although it did mean that when I opened up on the legged Longbow, I did it from at least 60m away, in case of unfortunate accidents ...

Simon Landmine · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 February 2018, 20:41:13 »

I've played a couple more MegaMek games with these lances, on a couple of different maps, and agree with SpudBot - the Davion lance is definitely more straightforward. The Banshee stomps forward, with the Rifleman alongside, while the Archer provides fire support, and the Assassin, as predicted, flits around backstabbing. Meanwhile, the Liao lance definitely has problems at short range - which this Davion lance excels at. The more cover on the battlefield, the worse it goes for Liao - if they concentrate on the Banshee, the Archer 2S and Rifleman 3C are powerful enough to cause severe damage at most ranges, but if Liao spreads their fire, the Banshee can wade through almost anything, barring lucky hits, and the Archer is harder to take down than might be expected. (In one of my games, the Archer even got full value from those oft-maligned rear lasers, destroying the Scorpion with them as it attempted to flank.) While the Longbow may be nominally an Assault Mech, it's not in the same class as the Banshee 3S, so I think it needs to be supported by more than the trio of mediums.

(I'm going to keep running these lances, though, as they make for fairly quick games, and they're a fun challenge! I've now switched to playing Liao, in the hope that I can finesse a combination of tactics and terrain that allows me to defeat the forces of Davion! Thanks!)

As an alternative, I was wondering how these lance combinations might work out ...

DAVION
Banshee 3S
Griffin 1N
Scorpion 1N
Phoenix Hawk 1D -OR- Assassin 21

LIAO
Longbow 7Q
Archer 2R
Rifleman 3N
Assassin 21 -OR- Phoenix Hawk 1

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 February 2018, 00:47:46 »

You sure you're not going to bring in any other mechs? Liao would really benefit from something like swapping the Longbow out for a CGR-1A5 Charger. Overloading on LRMs is going to hurt against that Davion force.

Simon Landmine · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 February 2018, 17:55:11 »

Quote from: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 February 2018, 00:47:46

You sure you're not going to bring in any other mechs? Liao would really benefit from something like swapping the Longbow out for a CGR-1A5 Charger. Overloading on LRMs is going to hurt against that Davion force.

True, but I was working with what Wraithcannon had in the list. In my games, I almost got the impression that the extra 30 tons of Davion lance were mostly armour ... although I could just have been rolling poorly - there was at least one round where non of the combatants hit anything, even with reasonable odds. Even a successful crossfire between the Scorpion and Griffin didn't slow them much. And the Pixie's DFA bounced off the Banshee (I missed the head). The MG ammo explosion on the following turn didn't do too much to it, either.

A Charger for brawling the Banshee could be a heck of a boxing match, though!

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 February 2018, 18:49:33 »

You're not familiar with the 1A5 model, are you?

It's not dissimilar from the Banshee 3S.

Simon Landmine · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 February 2018, 10:53:06 »

Quote from: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 February 2018, 18:49:33

You're not familiar with the 1A5 model, are you?
It's not dissimilar from the Banshee 3S.

I wasn't, since reading the original TRO back in the 80s - thanks for the reminder! Even more of a close brawler than the Banshee 3S. Interesting.

Simon Landmine · « **Reply #18 on:** 18 February 2018, 09:47:25 »

And another game with the lance assignments from 2nd Feb ... outcome was ...

Liao
Longbow - ran out of ammo, turned around, walked off battlefield.
Scorpion - got legged, then nailed by the Assassin as it tried to flee.
Griffin - sniped heroically at long range for the entire battle, getting some hits, and taking some, and then took an unexpected and lucky hit to the back (which I didn't think had LOS at first) at long range, pitched forward, and smashed the cockpit into the ground.
Phoenix Hawk - mauled the Assassin in revenge for the Scorpion, managed a lucky DFA on the Banshee (which knocked it over, but didn't do anything major), and then got blown out of the sky attempting a second on the Archer. Crippled at the feet of his opponents, the pilot set it to self-destruct, but before it did, the three heavier 'mechs poured on the fire, and it fell apart (although the ignited MG ammo managed to take out the Rifleman's remaining AC/10).

Davion
Banshee - battered, but survived, despite DFA attack.
Archer - battered, but survived. Lost one LRM/15.
Rifleman - battered, but survived. Lost both AC/10 (one to the embarrassing Pixie bonfire).
Assassin - fled the battlefield after being crippled following a shin-kicking match with the Pixie.

I think the big challenge is that, alone, the Banshee is basically a Griffin and Scorpion welded together (with another big gun), and the Archer and Rifleman between them can take on the Longbow with capacity to spare.

I look forward to seeing how you do playing against your nephew!

Wondering about giving both sides to Princess and seeing what happens. [grin]

Wraithcannon · « **Reply #19 on:** 26 February 2018, 20:44:29 »

Wow, some great after action reports. I am in the process of finishing the paint jobs while my nephew finishes his wrestling season, after State, we are going to blow up robots!

Simon Landmine · « **Reply #20 on:** 27 February 2018, 09:02:27 »

Looking forward to the final line-ups and the actual AARs from when you play! I'm having fun with the lances, and happy to keep putting up AARs if you're interested in them.

Simon Landmine · « **Reply #21 on:** 28 February 2018, 17:32:27 »

Achievement unlocked: Liao beat Davion!

I had to tweak the lances to make it happen, but here's how it worked out ...

The Battlefield
Liao set up on the Western edge, Davion on the East. Davion was played by the behavioural Princess variants.

The Forces

Liao mustered a fire support lance ...		While Davion brought enough PPCs to be Kurita ...
	Longbow 7Q		Banshee 3S
	Archer 2R		Scorpion 1N
	Rifleman 3N		Griffin 1N
	Phoenix Hawk 1		Assassin 21

The Battle
In fine Princess tradition, the Davion forces deployed in a cluster in the woods at the middle of the Eastern edge of the map. And, in fine fire lance tradition, the Archer parked itself in the woods to the North-West, while the rest of the lance set up in the woods just below the middle of the Western edge, to get some form of crossfire set up.

As predicted, the Assassin raced forward along the Southern edge of the map, to indulge in the usual back-stabbing games. The Scorpion headed around the Northern edge to take on the Archer, while the Griffin followed more slowly, to provide long-range support. And the Banshee? The Banshee trudged slowly up the middle of the map, as suits a Juggernaut.

As intended, the Phoenix Hawk helped spoil the Assassin's game, preventing it settling in. Eventually, after a kick from the Pixie, the Assassin ended up in front of the Rifleman, taking hits from both Large Lasers and a kick to the right leg that caused a triple-crit. The resulting fall destroyed the right arm and torso, and the Mechwarrior ejected.

Meanwhile, the Banshee had been receiving LRM salvoes of variable accuracy from the Longbow and Archer, the latter also fending off the Scorpion with the medium lasers. Once the Assassin was down, the Phoenix Hawk joined the Archer in its woods, helping out against the Scorpion.

By this point, the Banshee had discovered that, when facing a Longbow, Archer, and Rifleman, it's not always the best tactic to stand 300m away in the middle of an open plain. I presume that Princess was avoiding the risk of medium laser spam, or closing on the Rifleman's large lasers. Instead it meant that the Banshee was a standing target for the LRM rain - by the time it fell and the Mechwarrior ejected, the Banshee had been hit by a total of 140 missiles, including 61 in one turn. In the previous turn, all of the head armour was stripped. In the next, it took hits to the hip, arm, shoulder - and one PPC and the AC/10. (The right arm and torso were also stripped, as were both legs. Ejecting was probably the smart move.)

And that left a damaged Scorpion, and the Griffin finally closing on the North-west corner behind it ... and one turn later, the Scorpion Mechwarrior, having taken at least one critical to each leg during the woodland brawl, and with none of them with any armour remaining, decided it was time to eject too. And, soon after that, the Griffin had taken enough damage to trigger victory conditions.

Summary
Finally, a Liao victory! The Agincourt approach, waiting patiently for the enemy to approach, wouldn't work if artillery was in use, and probably only worked because of the mostly open battlefield, and the Banshee's peculiar decision not to close on the fire positions. Still, I'll take it ...

Wraithcannon · « **Reply #22 on:** 01 March 2018, 10:05:04 »

Very nice report, well written and concise.

Yes, a very strange choice of tactics by the Banshee, but not every Mechwarrior is Phelan Kell. :))

Hopefully I can get him in front of the table in the next couple of weeks, his wrestling season is almost over.

Simon Landmine · « **Reply #23 on:** 01 March 2018, 15:08:58 »

Ta! I might have a re-fight of that one, to see if I can come up with a better use for the Banshee than as an LRM target.

Look forward to hearing how your battles go - hope you have as much fun with the lances!

grimlock1 · « **Reply #24 on:** 08 March 2018, 09:38:03 »

I'm setting up a match with a new player, his third game, designed to make him learn about distance and speed. He has about 2x my BV in fast light and medium mechs with a mix of short, medium and long range weapons. I'm bringing a lance of short range monsters, AS7-D(C), King Crab, Longbow -14C with 2 tons of Thunder, 1 ton of straight LRM and LOTS of SRM, and a Quasimodo.

The field will be a row of 3 maps, CityTech, Desert Sinkhole #2, City Ruins, with buildings scattered on the city maps.

If he gets close to my force, he will bleed.

If he slows down, he will bleed.

If he gets close and slow, he will die.

If he keeps the range open, keeps his TMM's up, he will kill me by inches.

Simon Landmine · « **Reply #25 on:** 15 March 2018, 21:13:37 »

Having managed to defeat my Davion lance with my Liao one, I decided to rotate the table and see whether I could beat the Liao missile nightmare with the Davion Banshee and its lancemates, using the same map as last time.

Battle 1
The first attempt ended ... badly. Round one saw LRMs blasting both ways across the battlefield, hitting nothing. Round two saw some hits, but all were glancing blows, reflecting the range. Round three, and it was all about the head hits. The Scorpion scored a hit on the Phoenix Hawk's head, with the Pixie being saved by it being another glancing blow. More impressively, the Rifleman made a direct hit on the Banshee's head with one of the autocannon. Shaken, but not stirred. And then, in round four, it all fell apart. The Longbow managed to score a crit on the Banshee's left leg, but the Rifleman followed that with a large laser to the Banshee's head, and it was lights out for the Banshee, with the pilot killed during ejection. At that point, the Griffin, Scorpion, and Assassin, although only having taken light damage between them, decided discretion was the better part of a long-range duel against a Longbow, Archer, and Rifleman, and fled the field, which at least meant none of them were lost (although they took some more damage in the retreat, including yet another head hit (Pixie's medium laser on the Griffin as a leaving present)).

Battle 2
So I fired things up again, and had another go. Same forces, same map, but this time I kept the Banshee moving faster, rather than trying a firing advance, putting the priority on closing (which I should have done the first time). That worked better. In round two, the Scorpion managed a PPC hit on the Archer's head, burning through the armour to cause a critical on the cockpit, taking it out of the battle nice and early. In round three, the Banshee crits the Rifleman's gyro, causing it to fall. Heavy damage to the Phoenix Hawk from the Griffin and Scorpion causes that to topple, too. The Rifleman, as is traditional, fails to stand in the next round, but the Longbow hits the Banshee with 20 LRMs ... which it soaks. Round five, the Rifleman falls again and the pilot blacks out. Round six, and the Griffin takes the Pixie's left arm, while the Banshee starts scouring the Longbow at short range. Round seven, and the Banshee has got up close and personal on the Longbow, hitting it with the autocannon, four medium lasers, and all six SRMs, while the Scorpion managed to crit the 'bow's leg, causing that to fall. Round eight, the Longbow falls while trying to stand, doing more damage to the leg. The Banshee, close up, followed with a pair of gyro crits to the Longbow, catching the Pixie's jump jets a critical as a bonus. Round nine, and both the Longbow and Rifleman pilots eject from their fallen machines, leaving the Pixie to lose the left torso to the Banshee, and take three more crits from the Assassin, then falling before losing a leg to a kick from the Banshee, ending the battle, although by that point the Banshee had itself started to take meaningful leg damage itself.

Summary
Lucky headshots were definitely important in both these battles - taking out the Banshee in the first, and the Archer in the second, before they could do much in the fight. I might still have won the second without that hit, but it would definitely have been a lot more of a struggle.