Author Topic: Battlechat 2012 February 18 (first) (Read 11863 times)

Sid · « **Reply #30 on:** 19 February 2012, 01:43:43 »

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers on 18 February 2012, 23:54:44

I agree and think something like this is a really good idea. Is there any reason the unseen being the only/most common look can't just be retcon'ed? TPTB may never be able show or mention the unseen again but mentioning how the same 'mech can have multiple looks seems a safe way of allowing the unseen to exist without ever showing them while being able to show art/produce minis of the old 'mechs again.

Except the most common 'looks' for 3025 are the ones they can't use, and everyone loves.

If they do as Mara says, and produce new variants for 3025 with a new look- saying those are the most 'common' in 3025, people will still be upset because it's retconning which variants are the most common.

Peacemaker · « **Reply #31 on:** 19 February 2012, 01:43:58 »

Did anyone get a transcript of the second chat? I completely forgot about it.

Alain Dumont · « **Reply #32 on:** 19 February 2012, 01:51:30 »

Yes, it's posted here in General chat.

martian · « **Reply #33 on:** 19 February 2012, 02:00:57 »

I don't like the idea too much, but I understand it is necessary. They could prepare either:

reprint TRO 3025 with new art replacing Unseens and without errors and typos - not likely because (honestly) TRO 3025 is obsolete
reprint TRO 3039, again with replaced artwork for Unseens and perhaps rearranged slightly (the Project Phoenix section won't be needed anymore, those 'Mechs can be put among standard BattleMechs.
TRO 3039 Supplemental. IMHO more probable. Two sections. Just a few pages detailing some added variants (JM6-B, COM-7X and so on, in short overview similar to TRO 3085) and a recognition guide with new artwork for Unseens (similar we could find in TRO: Project Phoenix)
TRO Succession Wars (let's start with the First, or perhaps all in general). More or less TRO 3039 with new art, but with fluff detailing Succession Wars era in greater detail. And with new art of course.
TRO Star League. Set in 2600 or so. Detailing Unseens as Star League 'Mechs (Warhammer or Thunderbolt) with new art. This TRO would be usable for all products (SL, SW) that will be published this year. Without Primitives, they have their own XTROs.

I will not be happy, but I can accept is as necessity.

tapdancingbeavers · « **Reply #34 on:** 19 February 2012, 02:07:53 »

Quote

Except the most common 'looks' for 3025 are the ones they can't use, and everyone loves.

If they do as Mara says, and produce new variants for 3025 with a new look- saying those are the most 'common' in 3025, people will still be upset because it's retconning which variants are the most common.

Everyone? And what does it matter if the unseen looks are changed to not be the only look or the most common if the stats are the same?

Fear Factory · « **Reply #35 on:** 19 February 2012, 02:12:47 »

When I started playing I got the 4th edition box set. No unseens in there and I learned how to play the game without them. They didn't exist to me until I got my hands on BMD (awwwwwwwwww yeah, remember that design program?).

StCptMara · « **Reply #36 on:** 19 February 2012, 02:34:56 »

Quote from: martian on 19 February 2012, 02:00:57

I don't like the idea too much, but I understand it is necessary. They could prepare either:
TRO Star League. Set in 2600 or so. Detailing Unseens as Star League 'Mechs (Warhammer or Thunderbolt) with new art. This TRO would be usable for all products (SL, SW) that will be published this year. Without Primitives, they have their own XTROs.[/li][/list]
necessity.

This would likely be the best method, logistically speaking...though I see some issues popping up when people new tot he game complain
that these 'mechs seem to show up over and over again in TROs...(If they were to do that, then, of the in-print TROs, they would be in: 3039, 3085, and Star League). Though, that could also be said for the Atlas....(3039, 3050, 3085, Prototypes...and, if you count the Atlas II, 3075)

Sharpnel · « **Reply #37 on:** 19 February 2012, 03:16:56 »

Quote from: Dmon on 18 February 2012, 22:53:40

Have you seen the Thunderbolt 10M or the New WSP-1? After seeing those I actively want the Unseen to go away and die in a corner!

I wholehearedley agree. The best thing to have done with the Unseen was doing Project Phoenix about ten years earlier. But late is always better than never when it comes to getting done.

Gabriels_Sword · « **Reply #38 on:** 19 February 2012, 06:43:31 »

Easy the Unseen are what the houses (and anyone else) took and built as primatives then upgraded these primatives to new tech - once they perfected the upgrade technique they started making them from scratch hence the retconned - it was easier as new production techniques and skills and equipment became available to make them fancier/cheaper/easier meaning a different but similar look and thus you can have both :)

perfect :)

Neufeld · « **Reply #39 on:** 19 February 2012, 08:28:38 »

For me the only issue is the Marauder, since the reseen looks wrong. The Catapult, the Cataphract and the Timber Wolf all looks more like a Marauder than the reseen. (At least of the original reseen, I have not done a comparison of the 3055 ones.)

Sartris · « **Reply #40 on:** 19 February 2012, 10:26:56 »

Quote from: Fear Factory on 19 February 2012, 02:12:47

When I started playing I got the 4th edition box set. No unseens in there and I learned how to play the game without them. They didn't exist to me until I got my hands on BMD (awwwwwwwwww yeah, remember that design program?).

this is almost exactly my own experience, except that I knew about the unseen from MechWarrior... Though if I could go back in a time machine and tell the my 12 year old self to not buy stupid stuff and invest in sets of unseen minis (and make a few extra dollars on sports betting).

As to the unseen, my first (and probably most people's) choice is to get the rights to the unseen back. Since that is probably impossible, something should be done to address the <censored by order of the primus> silhouettes.

The only compromise I could think of that hasn't been beaten to death is to leave things as-is and make every last unseen design extinct in the post jihad/republic era. Unfortunately, this doesn't address the conundrum with TRO 3039. The problem is, there currently isn't a solution TPTB can implement that won't be divisive in some way.

StCptMara · « **Reply #41 on:** 19 February 2012, 10:46:27 »

Frankly, Sartris, that is, unfortunately, the way of it. The upside is that many of the older players are thinning out or are as sick of
the back and forth as TPTB are. Or, at least, that is the way it seems. Over the last few years, I have noticed the "Just Retcon the
dang things, already!" sentiment has increased. I firmly believe that we are truly at the point where we can get away with it, finally.
That said, I still, firmly, believe that the best compromise would be "The General Motors Marauders made on such and such planet had this
look, while those made at this factory, due to these factors, has a different look that ComStar in a later publication would try to push as
the only appearance. Despite the cosmetic differences, however, there is no actual mechanical difference."

Khymerion · « **Reply #42 on:** 19 February 2012, 10:51:53 »

Quote from: StCptMara on 19 February 2012, 10:46:27

Frankly, Sartris, that is, unfortunately, the way of it. The upside is that many of the older players are thinning out or are as sick of
the back and forth as TPTB are. Or, at least, that is the way it seems. Over the last few years, I have noticed the "Just Retcon the
dang things, already!" sentiment has increased. I firmly believe that we are truly at the point where we can get away with it, finally.
That said, I still, firmly, believe that the best compromise would be "The General Motors Marauders made on such and such planet had this
look, while those made at this factory, due to these factors, has a different look that ComStar in a later publication would try to push as
the only appearance. Despite the cosmetic differences, however, there is no actual mechanical difference."

As long as they have the old stat blocks, the fun old stories, or at least reprint the old stat blocks for the earlier incarnations without having to by a record sheet book to get them... they could look like a paper airplane on top of some old GI Joe legs for all I care.

Maingunnery · « **Reply #43 on:** 19 February 2012, 11:11:56 »

I think that the time has come to take the old unseen art behind the barn and put it out of its misery.

Why? Well I believe that the current artists can revise the art without the Mechs losing their core aspects. Also the unseen art is borrowed, I feel that because of that they were just temporary placeholders, until TPTB got the artists needed to truly give those Mechs the art that they deserved.

Maniac Actual · « **Reply #44 on:** 19 February 2012, 11:23:53 »

Quote from: StCptMara on 19 February 2012, 10:46:27

Frankly, Sartris, that is, unfortunately, the way of it. The upside is that many of the older players are thinning out or are as sick of
the back and forth as TPTB are. Or, at least, that is the way it seems. Over the last few years, I have noticed the "Just Retcon the
dang things, already!" sentiment has increased. I firmly believe that we are truly at the point where we can get away with it, finally.
That said, I still, firmly, believe that the best compromise would be "The General Motors Marauders made on such and such planet had this
look, while those made at this factory, due to these factors, has a different look that ComStar in a later publication would try to push as
the only appearance. Despite the cosmetic differences, however, there is no actual mechanical difference."

The problem, IMO, is very simple:

Stop using the word RETCON.

That word is like a fricking nuclear mine. Very explosive, very deadly. If TPTB had done what you suggested years ago, no one would have beefed all that loudly, IMO. But thrown in the word RETCON ---- That word ****** me off. Big time.

Battletech doesn't RETCON, unlike any other game or movie franchise I can think of. So stop calling it a RETCON. THe stories aren't going to change with something like the above proposal. But RETCON? That, be definition, implies that my Whammer NEVER EXISTED, and that I WILL NOT SIT STILL FOR.

So, in short, stop using loaded terminology, and a lot of the hair pulling and name calling will go away. I'm not sure of what term should be used, but that's why I'm not a "getting paid big bucks game desginer." ;D

Maingunnery · « **Reply #45 on:** 19 February 2012, 11:28:00 »

Restyled

Moonsword · « **Reply #46 on:** 19 February 2012, 11:45:39 »

Okay, folks, let's keep cool heads in here and remember Rules 1 and 3.

I am Belch II · « **Reply #47 on:** 19 February 2012, 12:50:08 »

Thanks for posting this. Im never at a place where I can take place in the Battlechats.

Wrangler · « **Reply #48 on:** 19 February 2012, 12:51:22 »

I wasn't crazy what they did with the Primitive Wasp, but thats way it goes. Their looking less like 'Mechs and more like unrealistic cartoon mechs or battle armor in some cases.

I'd be happy have more military/realistic Mechs re-imagings. I wish could just re-do the Phoenix Designs to more Retro look than make bizarre new images. But i'm fickle i guess. I'm glad Herb going try put end to this unseen/reseen situation, enough headaches explaining this to new players.

Fear Factory · « **Reply #49 on:** 19 February 2012, 13:24:00 »

Yeah, I'm one of those who actually prefers the old design style from TRO:3025 (even like the redraw in 3050 upgrade). This is BattleTech, not this (At least to me). The second is a MW4/wizkids style abomination that needs to die.

Atlas3060 · « **Reply #50 on:** 19 February 2012, 13:36:25 »

Quote from: Maingunnery on 19 February 2012, 11:11:56

I think that the time has come to take the old unseen art behind the barn and put it out of its misery.

Why? Well I believe that the current artists can revise the art without the Mechs losing their core aspects. Also the unseen art is borrowed, I feel that because of that they were just temporary placeholders, until TPTB got the artists needed to truly give those Mechs the art that they deserved.

Also another reason why: I want video games based on the past!
I wanted that 3015 concept video to be a game, but now it's scrapped/on hold/energy shifted to MW:O.
I want a video game set during the fall of the Star League where my team is racing across the fields of battle trying to stop a nuke launch.
I want to see the Battlemaster stretch forth its hand again and command lances!
I want a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power!
I want to stop this proxy with a reseen Marauder for an older design, afraid to look at Ebay because the old ones were too expensive.
I want to see what the Star League used to be!
That's all, just to get it all back. I want video games of all eras without having to even think about the Unseen debacle.

Edit: Yes I was rewatching B5 during this post, I'm sorry if anything spilled over. ;D

Charlie Tango · « **Reply #51 on:** 19 February 2012, 15:15:23 »

Quote from: Atlas3060 on 19 February 2012, 13:36:25

Also another reason why: I want video games based on the past!
I wanted that 3015 concept video to be a game, but now it's scrapped/on hold/energy shifted to MW:O.
I want a video game set during the fall of the Star League where my team is racing across the fields of battle trying to stop a nuke launch.
I want to see the Battlemaster stretch forth its hand again and command lances!
I want a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power!
I want to stop this proxy with a reseen Marauder for an older design, afraid to look at Ebay because the old ones were too expensive.
I want to see what the Star League used to be!
That's all, just to get it all back. I want video games of all eras without having to even think about the Unseen debacle.

Edit: Yes I was rewatching B5 during this post, I'm sorry if anything spilled over. ;D

And remember who made that speech in B5 and what happened to him. Be careful what devils you make deals with, and what you are willing to sacrifice to get what you think you want.

Hersh67 · « **Reply #52 on:** 19 February 2012, 15:16:53 »

Quote from: cold1 on 18 February 2012, 21:23:47

I personally think the new art for the unseen is awesome. Change the art for good and anyone who has the old books or minis can relive the glory days all they want.

If they can do the artwork for the rest of the Unseen as well as they did the Wasp, I can live with the Retcon. There's no way I'd give up my circa 1990s Archers, Warhammer, Locust, ect. minis, but I can deal with well done art that can bring back the spirit of those 'mechs while keeping the lawyer goons a couple of AU away...

Wrangler · « **Reply #53 on:** 19 February 2012, 16:21:29 »

Well, only thing i can say is. Only way forward is to correct the past. We need the 'Mechs of old, so we can march forward with the universe.

Atlas3060 · « **Reply #54 on:** 19 February 2012, 16:30:52 »

Quote from: Charlie Tango on 19 February 2012, 15:15:23

And remember who made that speech in B5 and what happened to him. Be careful what devils you make deals with, and what you are willing to sacrifice to get what you think you want.

If Herb or Randall are the Shadows or Morden, I'll gladly pay for Interstellar Ops,a final fix on this Unseen mess, and more importantly games from any era (or the possibility of them).
If the cost is this 2014 shake up where factions might die, then I'll pay it.

Neufeld · « **Reply #55 on:** 20 February 2012, 02:16:11 »

Quote from: Charlie Tango on 19 February 2012, 15:15:23

And remember who made that speech in B5 and what happened to him. Be careful what devils you make deals with, and what you are willing to sacrifice to get what you think you want.

The Shadows got nothing on Herb's Cats. We really should be careful the day Herb starts to ask what we want.

HABeas2 · « **Reply #56 on:** 20 February 2012, 02:35:34 »

Hello,

You know, in many ways, I already have...

Thank you,

- Herbert Beas
BattleTech
Catalyst Game Labs

TheOldGuy · « **Reply #57 on:** 20 February 2012, 03:19:44 »

One thing to keep in mind is that response to the Blitzkrieg is that direct purchases won't be the only way to measure its success. I renewed my subscription to BC because of them.

StCptMara · « **Reply #58 on:** 20 February 2012, 04:02:17 »

Quote from: HABeas2 on 20 February 2012, 02:35:34

Hello,

You know, in many ways, I already have...

Thank you,

- Herbert Beas
BattleTech
Catalyst Game Labs

Honestly, Herb..I am suspecting that after a Chat, you look for the transcript threads and read them just to see what people's reactions are, and look for the comments by the people being the most reasonable about things...At least..I like to think you do.

thrawn · « **Reply #59 on:** 20 February 2012, 11:52:29 »

Hi folks

I'm really going to betray my ignorance here, and I apologise for that- I just want to get my terminology right. Also, sorry if this is helping to derail the thread- it just aids my understanding of these issues.

The Unseen miniatures are the ones that came in an earlier edition box set (Archer, Rifleman, Wasp, Marauder, etc), and the corresponding artwork is the stuff that used to be at the back of the BTech novels, is that correct?

The Reseen are the versions of those 'Mechs that are now available from IWM and that I see on CSO, etc. These are re-imagined versions of those earlier 'Mechs to avoid legal issues. OK so far?

My real confusion is that the silhouettes in my RS 3039 seem to be of the Reseen, or at least my understanding of that term. Why are these images silhouetted? Surely it should be OK to display images of the newer models.

D