Author Topic: Salvaging Jumpships  (Read 14555 times)

Marwynn

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #30 on: 04 March 2011, 21:30:14 »
Weren't the Belters in the Sol system said to have an American-esque culture? Or am I just fogging things up again?

Personally, I imagined that JumpShips simply didn't... die peacefully. Not quietly enough to leave something so cohesive as a derelict.


cray

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #31 on: 04 March 2011, 23:29:24 »
Weren't the Belters in the Sol system said to have an American-esque culture? Or am I just fogging things up again?

A fraction of them. Compared to the teeming masses of the Inner Sphere and the billions of dead on American-themed planets like New Dallas, the Americentric Belters ain't much. At the Belter's level of population, you can find virtually any Terran-derived culture somewhere in the Inner Sphere.
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Dirk Bastion

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #32 on: 05 March 2011, 05:42:54 »
It was sad to me to know that the Liberador was lost. First, because once i wrote a fan history about what happened to the people of the Liberador (Cray helped me to make it readable).
Sorry to hear that. I must admit my curiosity at the history, though.

Quote
Second, because as a citizen of a south american country, i would love to see more planets colonized by people of a culture similar to mine, and not soo many colonized by Europeans and the USA as the current historyline shows. Yes, there are some planets, but for each Buenos Aires or Aconcagua, you get tons of scot or english named planets, if you understand what i mean.
I understand completely; it is somewhat annoying.

haesslich

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #33 on: 05 March 2011, 17:16:41 »
I understand completely; it is somewhat annoying.

Of course, getting noticed by the Powers-that-Be seems to lead either to massive nuclear or bioweapon-delivered death, insanity, or being portrayed as evil paranoid bastards (like the Cappies and the Kuritans).  Sometimes, it seems to be best to be relatively ignored in favor of the billions upon billions of Germanic, British, or Greek-derived so-called Great Houses.

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #34 on: 05 March 2011, 19:27:30 »
Well thanks for all the responses guys. It doesn't appear that Salvaging Jumpships would be a worthwhile national effort at this time. The scraps of their remains seem likely to have been picked over and stored or become one with stellar matter. Fixing up such craft seems like an individual task for those dedicated individuals with enough time and love or those truly desperate to have a jumpship without any means of possessing them normally.

Sidebar; would I be correct in assuming that the largest Spaceship Salvage Yards would be around the Core Worlds of the InnerSphere. The are at the center of such traffic. Planets like Terra, New Earth, or former Hegemony worlds with shipyards at one time could be good candidates.  Thoughts?

Also I sympathize with you Baldur about the fate of the Liberador. I had a whole Periphery realm emerging from their settlers.  :'(

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #35 on: 05 March 2011, 20:34:13 »
To me, they would probably be centered on the shipbuilding centers that remain and not all concentrated on the ex-Hegemony worlds, although you may find some Mom-and-Pop equivalents elsewhere and if they're actively scavenging, their field types will be roaming around looking for candidates to salvage.

In addition, Terra was largely isolated industrially during the Succession Wars and wouldn't be hosting that sort of operation.

cawest

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #36 on: 08 March 2011, 13:37:19 »
When salvaging a jumpship you have to find out what is wrong.  If it is something small like leaking coolant, blown or burned out computers, or shot life support, or something other than a crack or burned out jump core... it would be cheaper to salvage them.

General308

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #37 on: 08 March 2011, 20:57:38 »
Thousands of JumpShips? Individuals owned more than a thousand JumpShips in the 2300s. By the Star League era, there were enough JumpShips to move billions of people per year. That's not something done with mere thousands of JumpShips.

I guess I don't follow the leap in logic that such derelicts would be left. After all, JumpShips use standard zenith and nadir jump points - stationary positions over a star's poles. Once a ship runs out of gas for its stationkeeping drive (to say nothing of being blown to hell), it will plummet into the local star within a few years due to gravity (pg124 Strategic Operations, or pg115 DropShips & JumpShips). Or just a few months for dimmer stars.

Do you have some way of sorting their atoms out of the star's plasma?

Also, refer to Strategic Operations (pg130) for the difficulty in refitting damaged JumpShips. You need to repair them on site.

Why would the Jumpships plummet into the stars due to gravity.   I thought Jumpships jumped to locations with no gravity?

Moonsword

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #38 on: 08 March 2011, 21:21:36 »
Why would the Jumpships plummet into the stars due to gravity.   I thought Jumpships jumped to locations with no gravity?

They need a very low amount of gravity, not none.  If there were no gravitational effects from the local star at the proximity limit, everything in the solar system past that point would go hurtling off into the interstellar void, and there are three major planets outside Sol's proximity limit and a number of smaller bodies.

cray

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #39 on: 08 March 2011, 21:24:27 »
Why would the Jumpships plummet into the stars due to gravity.   I thought Jumpships jumped to locations with no gravity?

There's no such thing as "no gravity points."

The standard zenith/nadir points, as shown in DS&JS, BattleSpace, Explorer Corps, AT2R, and Strategic Operations, are stationary points over the poles of a star. They are points so far from a star where gravity is low enough for a hyperspace field to form safely. You can also find similar conditions at L1 Lagrange points.

The standard zenith/nadir points of Earth's solar system are only 10 astronomical units from Sol's north and south poles - only as far from the sun as Saturn. Trust me, the sun's gravity is doing a fine job of keeping Saturn in orbit, as well as planets further away like Uranus (20AU) and Neptune (40AU) and the even more distant objects.

Zenith/nadir points are actually pretty deep in a star system.

Unlike an orbiting planet, the zenith/nadir points are not orbiting. They're stationary. There's no centripetal force to resist gravity. When you turn off the stationkeeping drive of a JumpShip or recharge station, the ship begins falling toward the star.
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**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Moonsword

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #40 on: 08 March 2011, 21:27:06 »
That suggests another question.  Do recharging stations normally burn constantly or do they use shorter, more powerful burns?  Also, do they coordinate these burns with the JumpShips docked alongside?

cray

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #41 on: 08 March 2011, 21:37:18 »
That suggests another question.  Do recharging stations normally burn constantly or do they use shorter, more powerful burns?  Also, do they coordinate these burns with the JumpShips docked alongside?

The portrayal of JumpShips has always been continuous burns. I assume the same applies to stations.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Tempus

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #42 on: 08 March 2011, 22:13:02 »

But when a freeflying object (like an asteroid or spaceship) really gets into the gravity well of a larger object WITHOUT being on a collision course, then it is very unlikely to stop. You need to actively brake, and demonstrated methods of doing so include:

1) Rocket braking
2) Aerobraking
3) Lithobraking


I'm wondering if people just missed the humor in #3  or their latin is just nonexistent?


And isn't Lithobraking generally incompatible with leaving much to 'salvage' beyond the level of "scrap metal with a lot of embedded impurities"
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cray

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #43 on: 08 March 2011, 22:20:16 »
And isn't Lithobraking generally incompatible with leaving much to 'salvage' beyond the level of "scrap metal with a lot of embedded impurities"

Yes, generally, except for purpose-designed penetrators. :)
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Moonsword

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #44 on: 08 March 2011, 22:22:20 »
Aerobraking at the speeds involved doesn't seem terribly safe either.

cray

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #45 on: 08 March 2011, 22:29:41 »
Aerobraking at the speeds involved doesn't seem terribly safe either.

Keep it below 15-20km/s and you should be fine.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Tempus

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #46 on: 09 March 2011, 02:30:47 »
Yes, generally, except for purpose-designed penetrators. :)


Heh  well given the affect to the local terrain, I've wondered if perhaps it ought to be called 'Lithobreaking' 
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Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #47 on: 09 March 2011, 06:23:13 »

I'm wondering if people just missed the humor in #3  or their latin is just nonexistent?


And isn't Lithobraking generally incompatible with leaving much to 'salvage' beyond the level of "scrap metal with a lot of embedded impurities"

Lithobraking's been used a few times as a gag in the Aerospace sections of rule- and sourcebooks over the last few years.  I think StratOps was the first appearance.
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Trace Coburn

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #48 on: 09 March 2011, 07:04:33 »
Lithobraking's been used a few times as a gag in the Aerospace sections of rule- and sourcebooks over the last few years.  I think StratOps was the first appearance.
  I believe they call that an 'ascended meme' - AFAIK, the phrase (deconstructive) lithobraking in canon was borrowed from (or used by) Cray himself and numerous space-related CBT.com posts he'd made using the term up to that point.  ;)

cray

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #49 on: 09 March 2011, 07:28:55 »
  I believe they call that an 'ascended meme' - AFAIK, the phrase (deconstructive) lithobraking in canon was borrowed from (or used by) Cray himself and numerous space-related CBT.com posts he'd made using the term up to that point.  ;)

I picked it up on sci.space.tech or .science from folks far more knowledgeable about space than I. They were using it in the tongue-in-cheek form to mean "a crash," but lithobraking is a technical term for a valid deceleration means used by penetrators.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #50 on: 09 March 2011, 08:12:53 »
I picked it up on sci.space.tech or .science from folks far more knowledgeable about space than I. They were using it in the tongue-in-cheek form to mean "a crash," but lithobraking is a technical term for a valid deceleration means used by penetrators.

Being a fan of that kind of nerdy play on words, I wholeheartedly endore that product or event.
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ChrisSmith

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #51 on: 09 March 2011, 14:15:17 »
The portrayal of JumpShips has always been continuous burns. I assume the same applies to stations.

I think I would bow to anything that works and saves money.  If docking a jumpship would save money on fuel and other operational costs, the station master would probably be out there in a vac suit and a pair of batons guiding the Zucker brothers in Airplane!

That is the one big things that I always took away from BTech was that everything was hideously expensive, so any measure that could be taken to save a C-bill (or house bill of your choice) was jumped at.
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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #52 on: 09 March 2011, 14:29:01 »
I think I would bow to anything that works and saves money.  If docking a jumpship would save money on fuel and other operational costs, the station master would probably be out there in a vac suit and a pair of batons guiding the Zucker brothers in Airplane!

That is the one big things that I always took away from BTech was that everything was hideously expensive, so any measure that could be taken to save a C-bill (or house bill of your choice) was jumped at.

How is that different than the real world (the doing anything to save a buck mentality)?
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ChrisSmith

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #53 on: 09 March 2011, 15:32:42 »
How is that different than the real world (the doing anything to save a buck mentality)?

Considering the amount of money that is still being thrown at the Osprey to get it too work...
« Last Edit: 09 March 2011, 15:36:17 by ChrisSmith »
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skiltao

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Re: Salvaging Jumpships
« Reply #54 on: 16 April 2011, 00:01:14 »
Well thanks for all the responses guys. It doesn't appear that Salvaging Jumpships would be a worthwhile national effort at this time. The scraps of their remains seem likely to have been picked over and stored or become one with stellar matter. Fixing up such craft seems like an individual task for those dedicated individuals with enough time and love or those truly desperate to have a jumpship without any means of possessing them normally.

It's worth noting that, due to the ongoing loss of technology through most of the Succession Wars, the intensity of salvage efforts would have been inversely proportional to their competency.  What you understand how to salvage last year you don't understand this year.  If there's a correspondingly steady loss of information, then the forgotten ships would span the whole spectrum of salvageability. 

And accidents that ruin the KF drive seem to be different than the accidents that immobilize the ship, so it's not like any high percentage of lost ships would actually plummet into the local sun.  Go unnoticed in a cometary orbit around an uninhabited system, sure, but it's not like any high percentage of the many lost ships were lost in uninhabited systems ("war and age-related breakdowns" being the favored causes). 

So anyways, while jumpship salvage might be limited to private ventures at the beginning of the technological Renaissance, the scale of such efforts could increase as as the years go on.  Not that you'd see it mentioned outside of unit formation tables. 
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