Author Topic: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II  (Read 8188 times)

marauder648

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Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« on: 07 November 2013, 02:18:16 »
OH LAWD NO! NO! NOT THE FACE NOT MY BEAUTIFUL FACE!  In a nutshell.

The Tommy II is probably the finest 100 tonner in the game, its powerful to the point of being cheese but its not without its flaws (thank god!).  To me the Dire Wolf has always been a bit of a thug of a mech, its the lumbering chap with the axe and the funny mask who's going to chop you up into little tiny peices.  Doing what it does by application of overwhelming brute force.

The Tomahawk II is the cold unrelenting sociopath with a knife.  Just as deadly as a brute with an axe, but far more refined and scary for it. 

What do I get?

One hundred tonnes of grade A++ death on legs that comes in four flavours of doom.  Being a 100 tonner its not nippy, at 3/5/0 but it does have a supprising amount of space in its hull thanks to the use of Endo-composite for its structure, the crits for which fill up the mechs feet.  This leaves you with bucket loads of space and weight for dakka.  Armour wise its magnificent, maxed out everywhere save a point a piece on the legs.  It also comes fitted with 2 double heatsinks extra as standard.

Firepower

As I said, you get four flavours of death and for a Clan assault mech its quite a change in its armament layouts.  Most clan assaults tend to mount a varied array of weapons, one of these, four of these, 2 of them facing backwards and this, purely because!  Not so the Tommy. 

Prime - The general purpose murder and mayhem machine comes with a rather limited but brutal array of weapons that focuses on ripping someone apart at range, exploiting the clan advantages of longer ranged firepower.  Armed with two HAG-30's with 2 tonnes of ammo a peice, these big sand blasters are backed up by a trio of ER Large Lasers and a pair of mediums.  CASE II protects the ammo and it also supports an extra five double heatsinks, giving it a total of 17.  Not enough to handle an alfa but more than enough to let you use its weapons wisely.

Config A - The city fighter and brawler - Built for more close in work the A tots a pair of LB-10's with 2 tonnes of ammo a piece.  Four AP Gauss with 2 tonnes of ammo between all four guns will murder infantry and battle armour whilst paired large and medium pulse just add to the weight of firepower this mech brings to bare.  Oh and I forgot the single ER Large laser sitting in its head.  This machine also comes as standard with 7 extra heatsinks giving you 19 in total, more than enough to go berserk as long as you leave the ER Large alone.

Config B - The long range...jumper?  Yep! This variant is said in the background that it is good for city fighting and built up areas due to its three standard jump jets, but its weapons are built for hitting someone whilst they are a blip on the horizon.  Armed with dual ER Large Pulse Lasers and paired Streak LRM 15s with two tonnes of ammo a piece this machine can really reach out to slap you at long range. And this is just amplified by the pair of ER Large Lasers sitting in the left and right torso.  And if you survive all this there's a ER Medium in the chest.  In addition to its three jump jets the C also carries an extra 10 heatsinks, giving you a massive 22 in total which will allow you to use that long range wallop to its fullest although an Alfa will be a bad idea.

Config C- Macross Missile Spam.  Its a Clan config so ya KNOW there's going to be a missile boat in there. Well here she is.  SIX LRM 15's  and 10 tonnes of ammo allow you to do horrific things to an enemy at all ranges and because they are clan missiles they have no minimum range just for that extra kick in the nuts.  All that ammo is protected by CASE II.  Oh and if somehow you survive 90 missiles being fired at you again and again...there's two large pulse lasers waiting to greet you as well.  To handle the heat this config carries an extra six heatsinks giving you 18 which will allow you blaze away with the missiles all day long and even hammer out one LPL and barely scratch the heat indicator.

Breakdown

One hundred tons of brutality that makes the best of Clan tech and weapons, combined with rational configs and weapon mixes make this thing murder on legs nearly without equal.  Put a good pilot in this and let the hatred flow from your guns at anything that has the gall to come in range.  In the background it describes how a binary made up of Tommy II's with 'elite pilots' took and eradicated (love that word) two full Companies of Heavy and Assault Mechs in the battle of Tharkad, loosing only one of their number before withdrawing to reload.  I can fully belive that ability and power. 
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iampoch

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #1 on: 07 November 2013, 05:27:12 »
One thing the Tomahawk II got right was to not make the extra DHS as fixed equipment. This makes it more versatile than the Dire Wolf as far as pod spaces go. The endo composite is ok, though that only actually nets you 2.5 tonnes more than the Dire Wolf (is you discount the fixed DHS). My only gripe with the Tomahawk II is that all designs lack significant hole punchers like ER PPCs, Gauss, or Class 20 ACs. Instead of a trio of ER LLs, I would have preferred a pair of ER PPCs. Same weight, same average damage output at a lower heat output and greater damage concentration.

marauder648

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #2 on: 07 November 2013, 05:34:55 »
I dunno, the Prime is geared around wearing you down at long range, not getting into a slugging match, the HAG-30's will be sand blasting you whilst a 10 point punch from an ER Large is nothing to mock.  Its why I said its more refined than the brute with an axe, aka the Dire wolf.  It will kill you, but it will do it with more finess than jamming an Ultra AC-20 against your face and going BOOOOOOOOOOOM!
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iampoch

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #3 on: 07 November 2013, 09:27:55 »
You have a point there. I have to admit though, I prefer brute force over finesse by default. Notable exception is the AS8-D,which is a sandblaster until point blank range.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #4 on: 07 November 2013, 11:38:43 »
honestly, i don't get much of a 'brute force' vibe from the Dire Wolf.. the Prime exists to pick you apart peice by peice at range with it's ERLL's, UAC5's, and LRM10, the A's main power is the trio of LPL's and the SRM's, which scattershot the damage all over, the B is death by a million papercuts from UAC2's and LB-10X, the D's HAG is a massive guass sandblaster, and the S is a mass of medium and small weapons that pick you apart a tiny peice at a time.

the only "brute force" configs the Dire Wolf has are the C with TC'd twin ERPPC's and twin ATM6's, the H with it's TC'd dual guass and dual HLL's, and the W with guass, UAC20, and ERLL.


most of the Dire Wolf configs exist to sandblast an opponent into submission, not to hammer them until they stop twitching. i'd say the "hammer" assualt for the clans is the Warhawk.
« Last Edit: 07 November 2013, 11:40:14 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #5 on: 07 November 2013, 12:50:45 »
The Scylla 3 has the best balance of hammer and sand blaster in a clan assault. :o

The Tomahawk II is a polished Dire Wolf chasis, that's a heck of a compliment though.


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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #6 on: 07 November 2013, 14:26:59 »
Honestly, I'm not impressed with the Tommy II.  The addition of endo-composite and the removal of three fixed freezers doesn't differentiate it from the Dire Wolf all that much.

In-universe, it's hard to understand how an industrially constrained Clan like the Wolves would go to the trouble of developing a new 100-ton omni (actually two, counting the original Tomahawk) when the base chassis differs so little from the 100-ton omni they've already got.  Tommy II production started not long after the Jihad (3088), and instead of spending so many resources on a new development, the Wolves could have gotten the Dire Wolf back into production sooner and in greater numbers (and new Tommy II-like configurations) on Weingarten instead.

Out-of-universe, I'd rather have seen precious TRO and RS entries go to a truly different approach to a 100-ton Clan Omni, like a 3/5/X SFE and ferro-lamellor zombie.  With endo-composite and 12 fixed freezers, you can still get ~45 tons of pod space out of that chassis, which is enough for a dual ER PPC/dual pulse large laser Widowmaker-type config, a dual ER PPC/dual Gauss headcapper config, a 100-LRM Bane 3-type config, a dual Gauss/dual ER large laser/TC Warhawk-plus config, etc.

Don't get me wrong -- a little more Dire Wolf like what the Tommy II provides isn't a bad thing.  But it's not enough of a different thing.

My 2 cents... FWIW.
« Last Edit: 07 November 2013, 14:55:59 by Natasha Kerensky »
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marauder648

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #7 on: 07 November 2013, 14:42:26 »
honestly, i don't get much of a 'brute force' vibe from the Dire Wolf.. the Prime exists to pick you apart peice by peice at range with it's ERLL's, UAC5's, and LRM10, the A's main power is the trio of LPL's and the SRM's, which scattershot the damage all over, the B is death by a million papercuts from UAC2's and LB-10X, the D's HAG is a massive guass sandblaster, and the S is a mass of medium and small weapons that pick you apart a tiny peice at a time.

the only "brute force" configs the Dire Wolf has are the C with TC'd twin ERPPC's and twin ATM6's, the H with it's TC'd dual guass and dual HLL's, and the W with guass, UAC20, and ERLL.


most of the Dire Wolf configs exist to sandblast an opponent into submission, not to hammer them until they stop twitching. i'd say the "hammer" assualt for the clans is the Warhawk.

I think its more from the look of the Dire Wolf. It LOOKS like its a big mean brute where as other clan mechs tended to be angular and sleek (not counting the Gargoyle/Executioner) where as the Dire Pup looks like a big mean lurch of a machine.
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iampoch

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #8 on: 07 November 2013, 18:53:09 »
honestly, i don't get much of a 'brute force' vibe from the Dire Wolf.. the Prime exists to pick you apart peice by peice at range with it's ERLL's, UAC5's, and LRM10, the A's main power is the trio of LPL's and the SRM's, which scattershot the damage all over, the B is death by a million papercuts from UAC2's and LB-10X, the D's HAG is a massive guass sandblaster, and the S is a mass of medium and small weapons that pick you apart a tiny peice at a time.

the only "brute force" configs the Dire Wolf has are the C with TC'd twin ERPPC's and twin ATM6's, the H with it's TC'd dual guass and dual HLL's, and the W with guass, UAC20, and ERLL.


most of the Dire Wolf configs exist to sandblast an opponent into submission, not to hammer them until they stop twitching. i'd say the "hammer" assualt for the clans is the Warhawk.

The A has a Gauss and the S has the LB20X. The variants you mentioned (C, H, and W) happen to be my favorite standard configs. The one I like the most, though, is Natasha's ride.

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #9 on: 07 November 2013, 19:02:56 »
Personally I'm very happy with the Tomahawk, both iterations of it.

I didn't think we were gonna get it. I thought the wolves were going to be without a 3/5 100t Asssault Mech in production.

and then TRO 3145 Clans happens and Boom. Tommy's here.

Its stock configs aren't a replacement for the dire wolf per se, they're a compliment to it. There's room for both the Tomahawk and Tomahawk II AND the Dire Wolf if you're sticking to stock configs. Its more flavorful than making a whole star of Dire Wolves.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

Diablo48

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #10 on: 07 November 2013, 19:04:34 »
Honestly, I'm not impressed with the Tommy II.  The addition of endo-composite and the removal of three fixed freezers doesn't differentiate it from the Dire Wolf all that much.

In-universe, it's hard to understand how an industrially constrained Clan like the Wolves would go to the trouble of developing a new 100-ton omni (actually two, counting the original Tomahawk) when the base chassis differs so little from the 100-ton omni they've already got.  Tommy II production started not long after the Jihad (3088), and instead of spending so many resources on a new development, the Wolves could have gotten the Dire Wolf back into production sooner and in greater numbers (and new Tommy II-like configurations) on Weingarten instead.

I am very much with you on this.  The only substantial difference is the internals which, while nice, are kind of insignificant on a design with this much pod space and cost you the ability to stuff DHS in the legs which hurts.  The removal of the 3 fixed DHS on the Dire Wolf is totally irrelevant on a design this size because you will need more than 15 DHS on any configuration anyways (as the Tomahawk II shows) so the only thing removing them did was make the crits a bit more flexible.

I am also not impressed with any of the configurations.  Between the heat management issues, limited ammo, and the godawful 10-X's there are no configurations I would willingly use, so I am definitely going to stick with my old Dire Wolf.

Quote
Out-of-universe, I'd rather have seen precious TRO and RS entries go to a truly different approach to a 100-ton Clan Omni, like a 3/5/X SFE and ferro-lamellor zombie.  With endo-composite and 12 fixed freezers, you can still get ~45 tons of pod space out of that chassis, which is enough for a dual ER PPC/dual pulse large laser Widowmaker-type config, a dual ER PPC/dual Gauss headcapper config, a 100-LRM Bane 3-type config, a dual Gauss/dual ER large laser/TC Warhawk-plus config, etc.

Don't get me wrong -- a little more Dire Wolf like what the Tommy II provides isn't a bad thing.  But it's not enough of a different thing.

My 2 cents... FWIW.

I am very much with you on this.  I made a custom omni along these lines which I was very happy with, although mine had standard bones for more crits because FL eats a ton of room.

The A has a Gauss and the S has the LB20X. The variants you mentioned (C, H, and W) happen to be my favorite standard configs. The one I like the most, though, is Natasha's ride.

One headcapper is nothing for a Clan assault, especially a 3/5 100 toner which can carry five without trouble.


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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #11 on: 07 November 2013, 21:08:28 »
I like both Tomahawks, there big roomy and scare heck out whoever your facing.  Tomahawk II capable of carrying 56 tons of equipment.  That's like throwing a Enforcer into thing the (if pod space was one big hold...) walk around with Mech inside of it.

Only thing is with me is that the original Tomahawk (OmniMech) had far more canon configurations I actually like more than Tom II.  Prime with its regular Gauss Rifles, ER Larges, Medium Pulses and Streak 4.  With A Configuration locked and loaded with pair of Ultra AC/20s with slew of other close-range weaponry to hose anyone you get up and personal with.  B more a long range fighter with ER PPCs and ER Largers with large assortment of ER Medium Lasers and Medium Pulses.   13 Double Heat Sinks added help cope with its heat issues. 

As a side note.  I used to RPG play a slightly eccentric AeroSpace pilot who flew a Tomahawk Aerospace Fighter, which the naming this OmniMech Tomahawk kind-of gave me mix feeling.  I picture my character flying over head shaking his fist at the Tomahawk OmniMechs yelling "Give back my baby's name back ya bitches!" 
« Last Edit: 20 December 2014, 23:04:32 by Wrangler »
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #12 on: 07 November 2013, 21:29:40 »
One headcapper is nothing for a Clan assault, especially a 3/5 100 toner which can carry five without trouble.

thus why i said the Warhawk/Masakari is the clan "hammer" assault. 4 ERPPC's, with TC? of which is can use 3 of easily? ouch. it's too bad the design was lost to the IS clans. though with the Hellstar, not sure the IS clans will mourn it's loss much. 

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #13 on: 07 November 2013, 23:15:30 »
Eh, I'm not a fan. It's a big monstrosity lugging around a whole medium lance's worth of guns and armor, the likes of which we've never seen since... er, the last time the Wolf Clan built something like this. It's really just the same thing the Dire Wolf already did just fine, so unless the Wolves are incapable of building Dire Wolves anymore (which seems unlikely for a Mech using standard armor and internal structure!), I just don't see why this was necessary. Had it been someone else building it- say, a last gasp by the Nova Cats- I'd be a little more understanding.

Nice Mech, good configs overall, just... eh.
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Jellico

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #14 on: 08 November 2013, 01:02:28 »
I largely agree. But I think 3/5 100 ton assaults are overdone. They should have used endosteel. The big 300XL sinks enough heat sinks for it to be viable.

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #15 on: 08 November 2013, 09:55:05 »
Honestly, I'm not impressed with the Tommy II.  The addition of endo-composite and the removal of three fixed freezers doesn't differentiate it from the Dire Wolf all that much.

In-universe, it's hard to understand how an industrially constrained Clan like the Wolves would go to the trouble of developing a new 100-ton omni (actually two, counting the original Tomahawk) when the base chassis differs so little from the 100-ton omni they've already got.  Tommy II production started not long after the Jihad (3088), and instead of spending so many resources on a new development, the Wolves could have gotten the Dire Wolf back into production sooner and in greater numbers (and new Tommy II-like configurations) on Weingarten instead.

Actually, the Tomahawk was in development before the Jihad.  They'd already sunk quite a lot of resources into it by 3088.  And I doubt that restarting Dire Wolf production is nearly as simple as we posters often make it out to be.  While they've got some in the Touman, they may not have the sort of blueprints needed for production.  It would take time to reverse-engineer that sort of thing, and just finishing up the Tomahawk II may have been quicker and/or easier.
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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #16 on: 08 November 2013, 10:44:37 »
I am very much with you on this.  I made a custom omni along these lines which I was very happy with, although mine had standard bones for more crits because FL eats a ton of room.

I've actually gone the other way, too, with a 3/5/X 100-tonner with XLE, ES, and FF.  Pushes the pod space up around 60 tons with about half that in crit slots to work with.  But as long as you're willing to mount dual Gauss, HAGs, and/or Ultra AC/10s on every config, it still allows a surprising number of configs with some pretty mind-blowing firepower.

That all-out-firepower approach or a SFE/FL zombie would have added more to the universe and gameplay than another Dire Wolf with a couple tons endo-composite savings.

While they've got some in the Touman, they may not have the sort of blueprints needed for production.

I find that very hard to believe when a freebirth scout unit like Wolf's Dragoons was given the blueprints.  And when Phelan's Wolves apparently absconded with Timber Wolf and other omnimech blueprints per Arc-Royal production in TRO: 3050U.

It's one thing for Vlad to have been stupid enough to keep all his military industry halfway across the galaxy when his predecessor won Operation Revival and Tukayyid by keeping his supply lines short.  We know Vlad could be that thickheaded.  But it's another thing for every single Wolf officer, scientist, and merchant to have been stupid enough not to keep a copy of their homegrown omnimech blueprints on a flashdrive (or data crystal or whatever) somewhere.  Not every Wolf can be as stupid as Vlad.  It strains credulity, even without the precendents set by the Dragoons and Phelan's Wolves.

Quote
Actually, the Tomahawk was in development before the Jihad.  They'd already sunk quite a lot of resources into it by 3088... just finishing up the Tomahawk II may have been quicker and/or easier.

The point I was making was why even start Tommy II development (during the Jihad or whenever) in the first place given the existence of the Dire Wolf in the Clan's stable of designs.  Don't start another 100-ton, 3/5/X, XLE omnimech from scratch.  Save all those development dollars (or Kerenskys) and put them into a Spheroid manufacturing line that will be churning out Dire Wolves years before the first Tommy II prototype is in trials.
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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #17 on: 08 November 2013, 13:25:34 »
Arguing why the Dire Wolf wasn't reproduced by the Crusader Wolves is kinda mute point.  Something happened in Canon, I'm sure they have ability work it out to make their own.  However, Tamar was NUKED, along with good chunk of the Wolves manufacturing capacities.  Falcon's didn't have extensive manfacturing capacities either, leaving the Da Bears who did over course of 10 years moved their populations, capacities to the Inner Sphere in the first place.  Dire Wolf was awesome 'Mech, but if the ONLY place in the Inner Sphere that could actually produce Dire Wolf/Daishi was Outreach and that ended when the Blake came knocking in '68.   You also have take consideration that Wolves resources WERE strained by mid Jihad.  Their lost links to Homeworlds, also entire Clans had issues with their Scientists caste on top of everything else.

Dire Wolf was great machine, but you got move on.  Game needs new 'Mech in here, it sucks for good ones to go away. However, you got make room some how. Doesn't mean the 'Mech not available, its just being produced.  Succession Wars certainly proved, total war and raiding conflicts don't keep good design down for long.

Anyways, MWDA version of the Daishi was butt ugly, the figure looked like a walking Mac Truck with legs and arms.  I'd rather see it not produced than be uglified due to sculptor from WizKids wanting be different with classic Battletech design.

Tomahawk II is better machine anyways, you certainly replicate the Daishi's configurations with all the ample room that monster has.
« Last Edit: 20 December 2014, 23:06:58 by Wrangler »
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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #18 on: 08 November 2013, 13:59:59 »
I think its nice, For me to beat up with Executioners  >:D Otherwise its just another ja..wolf assault mech. Not to say i don't think its effective, it is. I just never go "oh no, A tomahawk II!!!"
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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #19 on: 08 November 2013, 19:01:15 »
Actually, the Tomahawk was in development before the Jihad.  They'd already sunk quite a lot of resources into it by 3088.  And I doubt that restarting Dire Wolf production is nearly as simple as we posters often make it out to be.  While they've got some in the Touman, they may not have the sort of blueprints needed for production.  It would take time to reverse-engineer that sort of thing, and just finishing up the Tomahawk II may have been quicker and/or easier.

Restarting Dire Wolf production is guaranteed to be an order of magnitude easier than designing the Tomahawk II from scratch.  You just have a team of techs pull apart a working example, measure every part to create the plans, and send them off to the factory to start production.  The whole process could be done in a few weeks if you were not in a huge rush, and you do not even need any scientists involved in the process with the possible exception of a few overseers.  After that you only need to wait for however long it takes to get the factory going, and even that is going to be less than the mostly-comparable Tomahawk II because of the Endo.

Putting a totally new design into production on the other hand is going to take years of engineering, prototyping, and testing, all of which will require a lot of resources and skilled personnel that would not be necessary to restart Dire Wolf production.

I've actually gone the other way, too, with a 3/5/X 100-tonner with XLE, ES, and FF.  Pushes the pod space up around 60 tons with about half that in crit slots to work with.  But as long as you're willing to mount dual Gauss, HAGs, and/or Ultra AC/10s on every config, it still allows a surprising number of configs with some pretty mind-blowing firepower.

That seems like more trouble than it is worth, although I can see going with just Endo because that does open up some options and was part of what allowed my Thunder Hawk IIC to "back up" its traditional triple Gauss Rifles with a pair of ERPPCs.

Of course, all of these wind up feeling like a tweaked Dire Wolf which the more durable SFE/FL omni does not which is why that is the only other 3/5 assault omni template I would be really happy to see.

Tomahawk II is better machine anyways, you certainly replicate the Daishi's configurations with all the ample room that monster has.

No, it really is not.  It has less than 5% extra pod space, and the way it places those Endo crits prevents stowing DHS in the legs to take advantage of water cooling and reduce the odds of crits from leg attacks, both of which are important for a 'Mech this slow.  Really, the two designs are essentially identical, but the Dire Wolf was made first by the same Clan so the Tomahawk II as published just feels like a waste of page space.


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SteveRestless

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #20 on: 08 November 2013, 20:25:54 »
Putting a totally new design into production on the other hand is going to take years of engineering, prototyping, and testing, all of which will require a lot of resources and skilled personnel that would not be necessary to restart Dire Wolf production.

Considering this thing has been in the pipe since the late 3060s, I think they had plenty of time for the above.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #21 on: 08 November 2013, 21:21:51 »
Restarting Dire Wolf production is guaranteed to be an order of magnitude easier than designing the Tomahawk II from scratch.  You just have a team of techs pull apart a working example, measure every part to create the plans, and send them off to the factory to start production.  The whole process could be done in a few weeks if you were not in a huge rush, and you do not even need any scientists involved in the process with the possible exception of a few overseers.  After that you only need to wait for however long it takes to get the factory going, and even that is going to be less than the mostly-comparable Tomahawk II because of the Endo.



If you know the story behind the Tu-4 'Bull', you're smiling at that image. And if not, go look it up. Right now. Trust me, it's relevant to this discussion.
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blitzy

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #22 on: 08 November 2013, 21:44:41 »
Isn't that the Soviet reverse engineered US bomber?"
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Diablo48

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #23 on: 08 November 2013, 22:35:20 »


If you know the story behind the Tu-4 'Bull', you're smiling at that image. And if not, go look it up. Right now. Trust me, it's relevant to this discussion.

I smiled the instant I saw the image.  I was considering bringing that up, but I didn't remember which aircraft it was and which aircraft it was derived from off the top of my head so I did not bother trying to look it up.  Also, that was a much more complex reverse engineering project because the two aircraft were built with different units so the soviets had to do a significant amount of re-engineering and were still able to start production in a few years.  The Dire Wolf (or any other omni for that matter) could be put into full-scale production in a matter of months with almost no investment beyond building or modifying the assembly line.

Isn't that the Soviet reverse engineered US bomber?"

The B-29 Superfortress to be precise.


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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #24 on: 09 November 2013, 19:21:44 »
They look a lot alike, but they aren't identical.  They used different engines, different armaments, different radios, etc.  If you look at the measurables, you'll find that the Bull weighed more empty but had a lower max takeoff weight, the Bull had more powerful engines, but couldn't match the Superfortress's top speed.  The Superfort also had slightly lower range, service ceiling, and rate of climb, but possessed a better power-to-mass ratio and less wing loading, and carried a greater bombload.


It would be as though the reverse-engineered Dire Wolfs weighed 105 tons, but carried a couple less tons of pod space and could only make 49 kph at a run, and has an extra negative quirk or two.
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Diablo48

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #25 on: 09 November 2013, 19:31:49 »
They look a lot alike, but they aren't identical.  They used different engines, different armaments, different radios, etc.  If you look at the measurables, you'll find that the Bull weighed more empty but had a lower max takeoff weight, the Bull had more powerful engines, but couldn't match the Superfortress's top speed.  The Superfort also had slightly lower range, service ceiling, and rate of climb, but possessed a better power-to-mass ratio and less wing loading, and carried a greater bombload.


It would be as though the reverse-engineered Dire Wolfs weighed 105 tons, but carried a couple less tons of pod space and could only make 49 kph at a run, and has an extra negative quirk or two.

Way to overstate the differences.  The weight difference was less than 1%, and the other differences were similarly small and mostly due to the fact that the engines were the one part of the aircraft that were not reverse engineered.


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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #26 on: 09 November 2013, 19:48:46 »
The way the Jade Falcons reacted to the functionally identical sphere-built Turkina makes even minor differences relevant.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #27 on: 09 November 2013, 19:54:31 »
The numbers I'm looking at disagree with yours:
TU-4 empty weight:  81,240 lb
B-29 empty weight:  74,500 lb

Bombload:
TU-4: 13,230 lb
B-29: 20,000 lb

That second one especially is huge for a bomber.

Edit: Another set of empty weight numbers I found is different, but no closer:
TU-4: 77,757 lb
B-29: 71,361 lb

Either way, that's about a 9% difference, not "less than 1%".
« Last Edit: 09 November 2013, 20:06:06 by Arkansas Warrior »
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Diablo48

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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #28 on: 09 November 2013, 20:11:34 »
The numbers I'm looking at disagree with yours:
TU-4 empty weight:  81,240 lb
B-29 empty weight:  74,500 lb

Bombload:
TU-4: 13,230 lb
B-29: 20,000 lb

That second one especially is huge for a bomber.

Edit: Another set of empty weight numbers I found is different, but no closer:
TU-4: 77,757 lb
B-29: 71,361 lb

Either way, that's about a 9% difference, not "less than 1%".

That was pulled from Wikipedia.  It is at the end of the fourth paragraph in the design and development section with a citation so you can go digging if you want to, but I would assume that cited comparison accounts for things more precisely than numbers which we are clearly uncertain about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-4


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Re: Thoughts on the Tomahawk II
« Reply #29 on: 09 November 2013, 20:15:40 »
The first set of numbers are also from Wikipedia (and yes, both sets have citations).  I went and found the second set because I figured it would be just like Wikipedia to contradict itself.
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