Lore question: Is Replicating Clantech more about knowledge or Machinery?

[Izzy193]

Now this is a simple question, Is replicating Clantech for IS factions more about knowledge than machinery? Or is it a bit of both? This is something that got me curious about manufacturers win the IS post tukkayid onwards.

[AlphaMirage]

I'd say both and add a third condition, scale. Clantech is the only tech in the homeworlds and while they have large toumans the Inner Sphere is a much, much larger and fractious area with thousands of suppliers feeding into their procurement chain. Each of these factories would require substantial investment to retool and update their machinery to make anything approaching Clantech, because of this it was deemed more cost-effective to just buy more of the same rather than upgrade.

Smart tactics (smoke missiles, artillery, or outnumbering them) are enough to overcome the threat that the Clans pose (except their Warships but enough nukes help) under most conditions.

[Frabby]

It’s explicitly stated in canon (in the preface to the original TRO3055 I think, or maybe 3050) that the IS is technically capable of building Clan-spec weapons but it’s simply not economically feasible. So the knowledge is there, it’s the application where the IS industry was lagging behind.

[Maingunnery]

That wasn't actual Clan tech, it was Clan-spec (as in as good as Clan tech). Now how did they reached that state? By entirely lab-building it, like making huge batches of each individual part and hoping that one piece would be good enough (horrifying failure rates). And some components simply could not be replicated at all forced those labs to resort to more exotic & expensive alternatives.
It would be a bit like people from the 1950 trying to build a current day car, or even worse as Clan tech goes a Tech Rating beyond SL tech.

[The Eagle]

Some of it is materials science as opposed to just having the engineering know-how to build a circuit board a certain way.  Look at the two breeds endo-steel, for example.  Clan endo-steel is half as bulky for the same strength as Star League endo-steel.  In order for the Houses to make the Clan version, the first thing they need to do is determine the exact chemicals that go into the vat before they can actually start smelting everything together.  Being able to make the appropriate chemicals and in sufficient quantities for mass manufacture can in and of itself be a huge roadblock.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

The other major chokepoint for Clan ES in particular is needing to manufacture it orbitally. Obviously not a huge problem for the Clan system, but the IS is understandably hesitant to put key manufacturing in such an indefensible location as space.

[Maingunnery]

The other major chokepoint for Clan ES in particular is needing to manufacture it orbitally. Obviously not a huge problem for the Clan system, but the IS is understandably hesitant to put key manufacturing in such an indefensible location as space.

IS Endosteel also needs orbital facilities.

[tassa_kay]

The other major chokepoint for Clan ES in particular is needing to manufacture it orbitally. Obviously not a huge problem for the Clan system, but the IS is understandably hesitant to put key manufacturing in such an indefensible location as space.

I don't know if this makes a difference, but the Scorpion Empire has a Hughes station that they use to make endo steel and Clantech with and they move it around to different systems under pretty tight security. Could the IS powers do something similar?

Heh, now I'm imagining the Sea Foxes making bank selling them to the IS.

[AlphaMirage]

The Sea Foxes are/were making bank selling Clantech to the IS in the ilClan era.

The IS doesn't have a jump capable factory station though anymore, I think the DCA had a Panther factory in the hulk of their battleship at one time but it got blown up

[Minemech]

 In general, it is a poor idea to build a factory in space unless technical or practical factors necessitate it. They do get built though.

[tassa_kay]

The IS doesn't have a jump capable factory station though anymore, I think the DCA had a Panther factory in the hulk of their battleship at one time but it got blown up

I was suggesting the Foxes sell them some Hughes, if they can make them, but I suppose it makes more sense for them not to because then the IS won't buy Clantech from 'em.

[glitterboy2098]

It’s explicitly stated in canon (in the preface to the original TRO3055 I think, or maybe 3050) that the IS is technically capable of building Clan-spec weapons but it’s simply not economically feasible. So the knowledge is there, it’s the application where the IS industry was lagging behind.

it is also heavily indicated that the main stumbling block was infrastructure. that replicating clan spec gear requires some different raw materials than standard IS or Star league tech, that aren't produced in the sorts of quantities that would be needed for mass production, even if the factories were rebuilt to produce the stuff.

add to that the fact it is implied that the clans developed some distinctly different processes in their manufacturing compared to the standard IS stuff, and you have something that is both a hardware and knowledge limitation, with added resource limitation. you need to have the knowledge of how to build or modifiy the factory machines to produce clan spec gear, as well as the mining, refining, and transport infrastructure to keep said factory fed.

[Metallgewitter]

It’s explicitly stated in canon (in the preface to the original TRO3055 I think, or maybe 3050) that the IS is technically capable of building Clan-spec weapons but it’s simply not economically feasible. So the knowledge is there, it’s the application where the IS industry was lagging behind.

Funny thing is the Operation Klondike sourcebook states that the IS might have been able to massproduce Caln tech weaponry by the mid 3080's had the Jihad not happened. Also the Word of blake was able to build Clantech weaponry at the end of the Jihad considering they armed their Spectrals with compact Clan weapons.

The majority probably lies in understanding how to improve SL weaponry. After all around the Clan invasion the IS was able to build weapons that were SL quality. The Clans however had decades to improve on said exisiting weaponry. So this contains new production and minitureization techniques (just as an example Clan missile racks weigh half as much as the IS counterparts) On the flipside though is that the IS nations have more resources to throw at this problem while the Clans were small and their scientific caste was later stymied by the warriors stating "Everything of worth has been researched"

[pokefan548]

This all also assumes the the Clans never had shortages of their own. Even the best Clans can't come close to matching the quantity of output over time compared to something like Defiance Industries or Andurien Aerospace's IS tech production at their peak. Pretty much the only reason the Sea Foxes can keep up with demand these days is because they have a galaxy-spanning mercantile empire with connections to virtually every industrial and investment group in the Sphere.

The Inner Sphere probably could achieve pretty reasonable Clan Tech production, but even putting aside the cost and delays caused by re-tooling everything, what's a lance of Clan-tech 'Mechs to a regiment of QuickScell tanks for commanders not overly concerned about Clan honor and dueling? In the Inner Sphere, war comes to you whether you're ready or not, so it makes sense to ensure that you can get a steady stream of materiel before worrying about decking your best out with really nice kit.

[CJC070]

Personally I always thought that was one of the “misses” in Dark Age.  We have already seen the start of tech evening out in the iClan era but I hope we see some factions having access to tech unique to them (ie chemical lasers for the Clans Hells Horses).

[Cannonshop]

Now this is a simple question, Is replicating Clantech for IS factions more about knowledge than machinery? Or is it a bit of both? This is something that got me curious about manufacturers win the IS post tukkayid onwards.

Okay...

Problem 1: Industrial Tooling.  You can turn out on manual machining equipment dating from the 1930s individual products equal to, or even more precise, than you can from a six-axis CNC today.  It's just going to take a hell of a lot longer, with more quality issues, demanding a lot more work-hours, workers, and raw materials.

but, you can do it...once.

This is the kind of scaling issues we're talking about.  Kerensky looted the very BEST industrial equipment in the Inner Sphere for Exodus, took with him the contents of technical libraries without leaving a copy behind, and likely shanghaie'd more than that one DCMS officer, in order to make the stuff work.

What got left behind, then got the shit bombed out of it and the experts and knowledgeable people murdered by Comstar ROM and three centuries of unrestricted no-rules civil war.

what does this mean? it means that the bulk of your industrial equipment in the Inner Sphere prior to 3048, is what was too low output, low priority, or low quality to use a Nuke on, or the stuff that was simple and robust enough to go for decades between maintenance cycles.

Meaning brute force and primitive is more likely than delicate and precise.

savvy where I'm going here?

It means they're trying to replicate 21st century designs on 1930s equipment...as their day-to-day.  Insert designs meant for 22nd century equipment and your 1930s hardware isn't going to be that useful without a massive tooling update, in the inner sphere.  Massive tooling updates require things like educated workforces, and the bulk of education for the last 300 years in the Inner Sphere has been "training soldiers to feed into to the meat grinder", as opposed to teaching kids the three dimensional geometry and calculus, or Algebraic thinking, that lets some of them figure out how to rebuild/remake/reinvent the necessary equipment to mass-produce that stuff.

thus, as the canon says, they can build it...in a lab, in tiny quantities.  Because the skilled workers aren't there to do more, and the skill base isn't there anymore, and the pressure to turn out SOMETHING that goes 'bang' when you fire it? that's there right now.

[Izzy193]

Okay...

Problem 1: Industrial Tooling.  You can turn out on manual machining equipment dating from the 1930s individual products equal to, or even more precise, than you can from a six-axis CNC today.  It's just going to take a hell of a lot longer, with more quality issues, demanding a lot more work-hours, workers, and raw materials.

but, you can do it...once.

This is the kind of scaling issues we're talking about.  Kerensky looted the very BEST industrial equipment in the Inner Sphere for Exodus, took with him the contents of technical libraries without leaving a copy behind, and likely shanghaie'd more than that one DCMS officer, in order to make the stuff work.

What got left behind, then got the shit bombed out of it and the experts and knowledgeable people murdered by Comstar ROM and three centuries of unrestricted no-rules civil war.

what does this mean? it means that the bulk of your industrial equipment in the Inner Sphere prior to 3048, is what was too low output, low priority, or low quality to use a Nuke on, or the stuff that was simple and robust enough to go for decades between maintenance cycles.

Meaning brute force and primitive is more likely than delicate and precise.

savvy where I'm going here?

It means they're trying to replicate 21st century designs on 1930s equipment...as their day-to-day.  Insert designs meant for 22nd century equipment and your 1930s hardware isn't going to be that useful without a massive tooling update, in the inner sphere.  Massive tooling updates require things like educated workforces, and the bulk of education for the last 300 years in the Inner Sphere has been "training soldiers to feed into to the meat grinder", as opposed to teaching kids the three dimensional geometry and calculus, or Algebraic thinking, that lets some of them figure out how to rebuild/remake/reinvent the necessary equipment to mass-produce that stuff.

thus, as the canon says, they can build it...in a lab, in tiny quantities.  Because the skilled workers aren't there to do more, and the skill base isn't there anymore, and the pressure to turn out SOMETHING that goes 'bang' when you fire it? that's there right now.

Yeah but in recent eras the IS powers are starting to get some Clantech in mass production. As this question covered more than just Clan Invasion Era But Dark Ages and Ilclan eras. So query, Why is it they have only Recently started to get some ClanSpec components?

[Maingunnery]

Yeah but in recent eras the IS powers are starting to get some Clantech in mass production. As this question covered more than just Clan Invasion Era But Dark Ages and Ilclan eras. So query, Why is it they have only Recently started to get some ClanSpec components?

The houses had to upgrade their entire industrial pyramid, while also educate the entire workforce that goes with that. And Clan tech is really that advanced. 

[Izzy193]

The houses had to upgrade their entire industrial pyramid, while also educate the entire workforce that goes with that. And Clan tech is really that advanced.

Thank you for the answer. I feel like my curiosity has been sated on this topic.

[Hellraiser]

That wasn't actual Clan tech, it was Clan-spec (as in as good as Clan tech). Now how did they reached that state? By entirely lab-building it, like making huge batches of each individual part and hoping that one piece would be good enough (horrifying failure rates). And some components simply could not be replicated at all forced those labs to resort to more exotic & expensive alternatives.
It would be a bit like people from the 1950 trying to build a current day car, or even worse as Clan tech goes a Tech Rating beyond SL tech.

IIRC the quote was something like built by hand 1 at a time at the NAIS, or something like that.

[Hellraiser]

So query, Why is it they have only Recently started to get some ClanSpec components?

MG called it.
It's the entire supply chain that needs upgrading.
From the Ore Refineries, to the Material Fabricators, to the Assembly Line, to the Programmers, etc etc.

Think of just those 4 components & then figure many of them are on different worlds, so its a whole chain of upgrades that needs to happen, in theory.

They broke down some salvaged lasers at the NAIS & were able to re-create it in the lab, but it took them say months of testing, etc etc.
Then you had 2 full generations of war going on non-stop before some peace time to invest back into infrastructure.
And in that time, yeah, they brought SOME of the chain up to spec.
Enough to create SOME clan tech, but not enough of their entire industrial base has been upgraded.

Then toss in that even while your doing that it was "peace" time so there wasn't a big push & they were doing basic repairs to many worlds that had been gutted & were starving with poisoned eco systems etc etc.
A huge amount of Jihad recovery was just getting humanitarian effort & basic construction of daily necessities across the 500ish worlds of your nation.
All while most naval & merchant fleets had been through a 20+ year grinder of warfare.

Imagine Germany (WW1/2) or Japan (WW2) recovering w/o the Allies helping out?   Because you know the CC isn't sending aid to the FS or LC in 3085, etc.