(Answered) Friendly Battle Armor and unit swarmed by less than 16 troopers

[Alfaryn]

On p. 222 TW (third printing) under Mechanized Battle Armor we find a rule, that a friendly Battle Armor Unit may attempt to mount a swarmed unit to aid in fighting off the attacking enemy infantry and to do so it must make a swarm attack roll with a modifier from Swarm Attack Modifiers Table for number of attacking enemy troopers vs friendly battle armor troopers applied as a negative number. This means that the more friendly battle armor and the less enemy troopers there are, the easier it is to mount a swarmed unit, which makes sense to.

It stops making sense to me however, when the number of swarming enemy conventional troopers drops below 16 in which case no such modifier applies. This means, that it is more difficult for friendly battle armor to mount a unit swarmed by 15 or less conventional troopers than if the unit was swarmed by 16-20 enemy troopers (or more depending on the number of friendly battle armor troopers).

Shouldn’t this rule be changed to something else – like if there are less then 16 enemy conventional troopers then treat their number as 16-17 or something like this?

Edit - minor formatting, and stylistic changes.

[Alfaryn]

Bump.

[Alfaryn]

Bump.

[Xotl]

As per the Swarm Attack Table - higher up on p. 221 of TW - only conventional infantry units with 16+ troopers can make swarm attacks.  Where the conventional infantry unit as 1-15 members, the table specifically states "No attack possible."

So it's not possible to have a situation where a 'Mech is swarmed by 1-15 conventional troopers.  A 'Mech can only be swarmed by a conventional infantry unit containing 16+ members at the beginning of the Weapon Attack Phase.  And given all weapons fire is resolved simultaneously, all attacks against swarming infantry should be resolved against the number of troopers in the unit at the beginning of the weapons attack phase.

(Of course the infantry unit may well have fewer than 16 troopers at the end of the turn; in such a case, the unit is incapable of continuing a swarm attack, and therefore incapable of remaining attached to the 'Mech.)

[Alfaryn]

I'm afraid it cannot be that simple. At least under the current rules, as clearly allow a swarming conventional infantry unit to remain on a 'Mech even if it drops below 16 troopers. See below for a detailed explanation.

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EXPLANATION:

The table on p. 221 refers to a so called "swarm attack". According to p. 220 (third paragraph under "Swarm Attacks") "The swarm attack to-hit roll determines only if the infantry unit manages to gain secure footholds on the 'Mech. The infantry unit does not inflict damage on the 'Mech during either the Weapon or Physical attack phases this turn."

Later on p. 223 under "Swarm Attack Damage" it says "If the swarming infantry unit stays on the 'Mech, it may make normal arm-mounted weapon attacks during the Weapon Attack Phase of the turn after it successfully swarmed the 'Mech. [...] All attacks automatically hit."

So conventional infantry needs to roll only to climb a 'Mech, and only then it the modifier from the table on p. 221 applies. No to-hit roll is needed to stay on a 'Mech in subsequent turns and to apply damage.

 The last paragraph under "Swarm Attack Damage" before "Critical Hits:" (p.223) lists conditions under which swarming infantry unit leaves/is forced to leave a swarmed unit: "Infantry units can continue to make weapon attacks on the 'Mech in subsequent Weapon Attacks Phases until the 'Mech is destroyed or manages to shake off the attacking unit, or the swarming unit chooses to end its swarming attack". Nothing about swarming conventional infantry units under 16 troopers being automatically forced of a 'Mech either here or (as far as I can tell) anywhere else.

The way I understand the rules as they are written a conventional infantry unit has to have at least 16 troopers only to climb a 'Mech, not to stay on it. Once an infantry unit successfully swarms a 'Mech, it leaves the 'Mech only under one of the following conditions:
- the swarming infantry unit is destroyed (obviously),
- the swarming unit is shaken off (see "Fighting Off Swarm Attacks" pp. 221-222 - nothing there about a conventional infantry unit below 16 troopers shaken off automatically),
- the swarming infantry chooses to end the attack (according to "Swarm Attacks" right before "Aimed Shots:" p. 220 "A swarming unit may end a swarming attack during any subsequent Weapon Attack Phase. [...]".

Furthermore the last paragraph under "Mechanized Battle Armor:" on p. 222 explicitly states that a BA unit may attempt to mount a 'Mech swarmed by less then 16 conventional troopers. The rules state "Even if the swarming enemy infantry have fewer troopers then will provide a Modifier from Swarm Attacks Modifier Table (for example a conventional infantry unit with fewer than 16 active troopers), the friendly battle armor attempting to mount must still make a standard Swarming Attack, but no modifiers from that table are applied."

This one sentence from the rules confirms my interpretation of the rules. A BA unit may attempt to mount a 'Mech swarmed by fewer then 16 conventional troopers, so it must be possible for a 'Mech to be swarmed by less then 16 conventional troopers before a friendly BA mounts the 'Mech. I'm unclear if the BA mounts a swarmed 'Mech at the end of Ground Movement Phase (as under Mounting on p. 223) or during Weapon Attack Phase (as a special case of swarm attack in which BA "swarms" a friendly unit), but either way it happens before any damage is applied to the conventional infantry (unless the damage happens during Movement Phase, but the only situations when it may happen are described in the left column on p. 222, and all of them end with the conventional infantry either shaken off or destroyed before friendly BA may attempt to mount a 'Mech).

So the rules state, that a BA unit may attempt to mount a friendly 'Mech swarmed by less then 16 conventional troopers. At the same time the conventional infantry can not take damage during that turn and remain on the 'Mech before BA unit makes it's attempt. This means, that under current rules it is indeed possible for less then 16 conventional troopers to begin a turn swarming a 'Mech. This in turn means, that the conventional infantry unit could not be forced of a 'Mech at the end of the previous turn just because it had less then 16 troopers.

Finally we come to the problem which started this whole thread:
- under current rules it is possible for friendly BA unit to attempt to mount a 'Mech, while the 'Mech is swarmed by 1-15 conventional troopers (as explained above),
- the rules state, that in this case "[...] the friendly battle armor attempting to mount must still make a standard Swarming Attack, but no modifiers from that table are applied." ("Mechanized Battle Armor:" p.222, second paragraph),
- in a paragraph just above the rules state, that under normal conditions (when there are more then 15 swarming conventional troopers, or a 'Mech is swarmed by hostile BA unit) a friendly BA unit attempting to mount "[...] must make a standard swarm attack, with all appropriate modifiers. This includes those from the Swarm Attack Modifiers Table for the number of active enemy troopers swarming the friendly carrying unit versus the number of active friendly battle armor troopers attempting to mount; this number is applied as a negative number to the target number. For example, if 21 enemy conventional infantry were swarming a 'Mech and a 4 trooper friendly battle armor attempted to mount the 'Mech [...] in addition to all standard modifiers, a -3 modifier (the +3 from the table, turned into a negative number) would be applied to the target number."

So according to the first paragraph under "Mechanizad Battle Armor:" on p. 222 it looks like a friendly BA gets a bonus to roll to mount a 'Mech swarmed by enemy BA unit or at least 16 conventional troopers. The bonus ranges from 0 to -7 (minus what is written in the Swarm Attack Modifiers Table) not counting bonuses for battle armor equipment, 'Mech being prone or immobile etc., but according to the second paragraph in that section if a 'Mech is  swarmed by 15 or less conventional troopers, the friendly BA does not get the bonus. This means that it is always more difficult for friendly BA units to mount 'Mechs swarmed by 15 or less conventional troopers (they get no bonus), then 'Mechs swarmed by 16-20 or more conventional troopers (at least -1 bonus depending on friendly BA unit size).

This is not logical because for 16+ swarming conventional troopers the larger the swarming unit, the more difficult for friendly BA unit it is to mount the 'Mech (this part is logical), but when there are less then 16 conventional troopers left the roll to mount suddenly becomes more difficult (no bonus from the Swarm Attack Modifiers Table) (this part is not logical).

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POSSIBLE FIXES:

I can see two possible ways out of this entire situation:

1) Change the rules to fit your ruling in the post above (conventional infantry units below 16 troopers are forced of a 'Mech at the end of a turn) - THIS REQUIRES AN ERRATA, BECAUSE CURRENT RULES SPECIFICALLY STATE HOW TO HANDLE A SITUATION, WHEN A FRIENDLY BA ATTEMPTS TO MOUNT A 'MECH SWARMED BY CONVENTIONAL INFANTRY WITH 15 OR LESS TROOPERS, which is impossible under you ruling;

2) Allow a swarming conventional infantry unit to remain on a 'Mech after it has been reduced below 15 troopers (as seems to be intended in the rules), and change the second paragraph of of "Mechanized Battle Armor:" on p. 222 to something logical. Personally for simplicity I would go with one of the following:
  - give friendly BA unit a bonus of either minus what is in 16-17 troopers line of Swarm Attack Modifiers Table (so mounting when there are 1-15 swarming troopers is just as difficult, as when there are 16-17 swarming troopers),
  - give friendly BA unit a bonus of either minus what is in 16-17 troopers line of Swarm Attack Modifiers Table, minus extra 1 point (so mounting when there are 1-15 swarming troopers is a little easier, as when there are 16-17 swarming troopers),
  - make mounting automatic, when there are less then 16 enemy troopers left (simplest solution).
IN THIS CASE YOU WOULD ALSO NEED AN ERRATA.

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SIDE ISSUE:

Aside from this main problem I believe there is another smaller issue that i noticed while writing all of the above. When do friendly BA make decision to mount a 'Mech swarmed by enemy infantry declared? When is the roll to do so made? I would lean towards "at the end of a movement phase" as opposed "during weapons attack phase", as it avoids a potential timing problem, but the rules under "Mechanized Battle Armor:" on p. 222 don't say one way or the other. The timing problem is that if both enemy and friendly infantry try to climb a 'Mech at the same turn. If the friendly BA does so in the weapons attack phase, you could theoretically get a situation when at the end of a movement phase a BA unit refuses to mount a 'Mech (using rules on p. 223 for infantry carriers), then during weapons attack phase enemy infantry declares it will attempt to swarm the 'Mech, and then the friendly BA unit has to declare to attempt mount the 'Mech (using rules on p. 222 for fighting off swarm attacks) before it is known if the swarm attack by enemy infantry succeeded or not.

[worktroll]

The rules are quite specific: "no attack possible". An infantry unit with 1-15 troopers cannot make a swarm attack. So no-one can attack a swarming unit of 1-15 troopers. Nor can such a unit continue a swarm attack. Only units capable of making a swarm attack can remain attached.

Given the number of infantry is considered as being the number present at the beginning of the attack phase, the situations you describe cannot happen under TW rules.

[Alfaryn]

This means we need an errata to second paragraph under Mechanized Battle Armor on p. 222 which specifically say how to proceed if a friendly BA attempts to mount a 'Mech that is swarmed by less then 16 conventional troopers. Plus we need a rule in the book which states, that a conventional infantry unit below 16 troopers is automatically removed from the 'Mech, and when exactly it happens. Essentially what I described as fix number 1 in my previous post. I still think, that fix number 2 would better reflect what I perceive to be the intent of the rules (remember, that swarm attacks come in two phases - in the first turn you climb a 'Mech - and then you make a roll with a modifier from the Swarm Attacks Table on p. 221 with "No attack possible" line. In subsequent turns there is no roll to hit - you automatically deal damage (see Swarm Attack Damage p. 223), so to me it seems this entire table is irrelevant at that point (it gives a modifier to a roll that is not made once a unit successfully climbed a 'Mech). Plus under fix number 1 conventional infantry swarming attacks are not just weak - they are essentially useless, but I can accept either solution.

What I can't accept is that paragraph as it is - it either describes impossible situation (if we go with fix 1), or together with the paragraph just above it leads to illogical outcome (if we go with fix 2).

Also in either case I would like an answer to what I described as Side Issue at the end of the above post.

[Alfaryn]

A quick example, of how I understand the rules, and why I think, that 15 or less troopers can keep swarming a 'Mech:

TURN 1

Movement Phase:
- A 'Mech, and an opposing conventional infantry unit end up on the same hex.

Weapons Attack Phase:
- The infantry unit declares a swarm attack. To succeed, they need to make a to-hit roll with a modifier from Swarm Attack Table. AT THIS POINT there need to be at least 16 troopers in the unit (as dictated by the table);
- If the attack fails - nothing happens, if the attack succeeds - the infantry unit climbs the 'Mech, but deals no damage (yet).

TURN 2 (assuming the infantry unit succeeded last turn)

Weapons Attack Phase:
- The infantry can choose to either leave the 'Mech or deal damage. NO TO HIT ROLL IS NEEDED (see first two paragraphs of "Swarm Attack Damage" p. 223), so the Swarm Attack Table does not apply.

I believe that the Swarm Attack Table applies only to the to-hit roll which happens only on turn 1. Once you climb a 'Mech rules don't require any subsequent rolls to "hang on". This means that the line from that table which says "No Attack Possible", also does not apply past turn 1, as the "attack" this table reefers to is the act of climbing a 'Mech, and has nothing to do with dealing damage to the 'Mech in subsequent turns.

[Alfaryn]

Bump.

I would like a confirmation or a revision of the answers above. I explained why I've got a problem with those answers in detail in the posts above, so I'll just sum my main points here:

1) The rules for Swarm Attack Damage on p. 223 say in the first couple of paragraphs, that if an infantry unit has managed to swarm (climb) a 'Mech, the infantry unit may apply damage to the 'Mech in subsequent turns automatically. The action of swarming/climbing a 'Mech requires a to-hit roll dictated by rules on pp. 220-221, but applying the damage in later turns does not require any to-hit rolls. This seems to indicate, that the Swarm Attack Table on p. 221 applies only on the turn, when the infantry unit is climbing/swarming a 'Mech on the fires turn, and not when that same infantry unit applies the damage on subsequent turns. Therefore to me it looks like a conventional infantry unit needs at least 16 units to climb/swarm a 'Mech on the first turn (as dictated by the Swarm Attack Table), but not to apply damage on subsequent turns (when the table no longer applies, as there no to-hit rolls required then).

2) The rules for Swarm Attack Damage on p. 223 in the fourth paragraph list situations in which an infantry unit swarming a 'Mech may no longer continue applying damage to the 'Mech they successfully climbed/swarmed in one of previous turns. None of those conditions is "a conventional infantry unit that has less than 16 troopers remaining).

3) The rules about fighting off swarm attacks with friendly mechanized battle armor on p. 222 devote a paragraph to explain how to proceed how to proceed when a friendly BA is attempting to mount a 'Mech swarmed by less then 16 conventional troopers, which implies that contrary to Xotl's and worktroll's answers it is possible for a conventional infantry unit to remain attached to a 'Mech after they are reduced to less than 16 troopers.

If Xotl's and worktroll's answers are correct, the rules mentioned in points 1-3 above need to be corrected.

If Xotl's and worktroll's answers are wrong, we return to my original question - under current rules it is harder for the friendly BA to mount a 'Mech swarmed by 1-15 conventional troopers, then one swarmed by 16-20 (or more depending on a number of friendly BA) conventional troopers.

So which one is it?

[Alexander Knight]

Errata:  change the 16-17 in the chart on page 221 to add a footnote.  Footnote reads:  "This line is also used for friendly battle armor attempting to mount a friendly unit being swarmed by 15 or fewer conventional infantry."

Delete second paragraph, right hand column, page 222.

[Alfaryn]

Wow. Thank you for the answer.

I thought that after all of my ranting everyone decided to forget about this thread, especially since it has been marked as "Answered" for all of those months.