WoB vs The Society

[DirewolfV.]

Not sure where to put that (technically it could go into either Clan Chatterweb or here, but I chose to go here, just cause) but who do you think is the more hardcore of the two group? Who is the more technocratic? Who is the more ruthless? Which is the more amoral and fanatical? And which, if either, do you favor, and why?

Also, if they both succeeded (WoB took the IS and Society took the Clans) who do you think would have won in a war?

[Neufeld]

Who is the more technocratic?

WoB. The Society is more into biosciences.

[Stormfury]

Also, if they both succeeded (WoB took the IS and Society took the Clans) who do you think would have won in a war?

The Word did not have the strength to take on even one of the Invader Clans, never mind the Home Clans; Clan bioscience can easily concoct things that make the Alarion and Kathil strains the Word unleashed look like a mild case of the sniffles.

The Society would win hands-down, but nobody would want to live in what was left of the inhabited BT setting.

[verybad]

I think they both have different views on what posthumanity sentience should look like. Hard and shiny, or 9 feet tall covered in chintinous armor and spiky?

The Society isn't JUST into bioscience, the technology they invented for mechs is absolutely nasty (iATMs and CEWS are absolutely powerful)

The WoB has (even post jihad with the "missing" Shadow divisions) a much larger army. They're both very adept at working in the shadows, but the WoB were much better at offensive operations, and had a better overall understanding of intelligence operations. Comstar has been doing stuff like that for about 300 years however...

In a war, the society could vertainly kill a lot of people, but given the numbers, winning without killing EVERYONE would be unlikely.

[Lord Harlock]

The Word did not have the strength to take on even one of the Invader Clans, never mind the Home Clans; Clan bioscience can easily concoct things that make the Alarion and Kathil Galax strains the Word unleashed look like a mild case of the sniffles.

I think you mean Galax.

[Øystein]

The Word did not have the strength to take on even one of the Invader Clans, never mind the Home Clans.

Incorrect.

With regards,
Øystein

[Minemech]

 Stormfury, as late as the start of 3078 the Word of Blake still had a formidable navy. Take a look at Jihad Final Reckoning, you might change your mind on this matter.

[Nahuris]

Yeah, when it comes to military strength.... the WOB has it.
I'm not disparaging the society...... but they were never going to have the means to build up into a big force, given the constraints of clan society as a whole.

In a straight up fight, I'd have to give it to the Blakists....

Nahuris

[JPArbiter]

when comparing the two side by side, I tend to sympathize with the society more and more.  they were an oppressed majority group, who were held as keepers of their civilizations genetic history, and was bearing witness to that legacy being destroyed.  Their hands were forced to action, and their motives where more akin to certain unnamed political movements IRL.

The Word of Blake were always thugs, fanatics.  while like the society their actions are blatantly terrorist attacks and war crimes, their motives were raw power grabs for themselves.  their hand was "forced" cause they did not get to go to war with an enemy that, as fate would have it, pretty much destroyed themselves anyway.

[Lord Harlock]

when comparing the two side by side, I tend to sympathize with the society more and more.  they were an oppressed majority group, who were held as keepers of their civilizations genetic history, and was bearing witness to that legacy being destroyed.  Their hands were forced to action, and their motives where more akin to certain unnamed political movements IRL.

The Word of Blake were always thugs, fanatics.  while like the society their actions are blatantly terrorist attacks and war crimes, their motives were raw power grabs for themselves.  their hand was "forced" cause they did not get to go to war with an enemy that, as fate would have it, pretty much destroyed themselves anyway.

I'm leery to say the Society was an oppressed majority since its leaders were part of the science caste. I'm not particularly aware of the actually percentages in clan society, but I always figured that the largest caste was the laborers. Now there were other caste members who joined with the Society scientists to get back at the Warriors, but it was not a movement started by the laborers. 

[JPArbiter]

I'm leery to say the Society was an oppressed majority since its leaders were part of the science caste. I'm not particularly aware of the actually percentages in clan society, but I always figured that the largest caste was the laborers. Now there were other caste members who joined with the Society scientists to get back at the Warriors, but it was not a movement started by the laborers.

to elaborate my statement, I am including all who aligned with the society in their ranks, across all castes.  the scientists themselves may not have been a majority, but thier interest was for all of the Clan Way, not just the warriors or themselves.

[Hawkeye Jim]

The WoB had a much larger navy than anyone else, Clan or IS realm. The Society had virtually none. That should have given the Wobbies enough advantage to win.

[Lazarus Jaguar]

Well, As interesting as it would be to see them fight, I'd rather consider an even scarier scenario:  What would have happened if the WoB and Society teamed up?

[elizibar]

Well, As interesting as it would be to see them fight, I'd rather consider an even scarier scenario:  What would have happened if the WoB and Society teamed up?

All my money, take it.

[Stormfury]

Stormfury, as late as the start of 3078 the Word of Blake still had a formidable navy. Take a look at Jihad Final Reckoning, you might change your mind on this matter.

I am aware of the size of their navy. It was matched if not exceeded by the vessels in the Clan OZs by '67, never mind the naval forces of the Homeworlds. We have done this dance before, and the argument in favour of the Word's strength requires it to have all 52 Divisions fully equipped at one time, which we know was never the case even before the Jihad kicked off. Whether the authors would have written a scenario in which the Word reduced a Clan OZ to a radioactive pestilent hellhole is unknowable, but in a conventional fight their ability to handle even Clan Wolf (the smallest Clan in the Sphere) by themselves is questionable.

Well, As interesting as it would be to see them fight, I'd rather consider an even scarier scenario:  What would have happened if the WoB and Society teamed up?

Same thing just higher cost for victory.

[Lazarus Jaguar]

Hmm, could it still happen?  We know some Shadow Divisions got away, and two of the Five may still be around.  But is it possible that some of the Society escaped?

[JPArbiter]

Hmm, could it still happen?  We know some Shadow Divisions got away, and two of the Five may still be around.  But is it possible that some of the Society escaped?

you gotta consider how many of the Shadows had DNI implants of some kind, they are on a timer.  you also have to consider how many shadows either gave up their reproductive capability to be augmented, or took some vow of celibacy (given they are a religious order that rejects organic life as imperfect)

the possibly of the Manei Domini order surviving as a culture from the missing shadows is next to non existent.  they either packed up and headed for the clan home worlds for a suicide run, or settled down on a Hidden World or an uncharted one and live out their years as best they could.  by 3150, they will be extinct, anyone claiming thier mantle being just as much pretenders to the throne as the second Star League.

[DirewolfV.]

Also many should consider what sort of wonder technologies would be made if these groups ever had enough time and resources to further consolidate their powers. WoB might very well be coming in with Super-Heavies, K-F Torpedos, Post-Gestal's, etc. Imagine K-F Torpedos armed with Cobalt Nuke warheads.

Society would have super-advanced Proto-Mechs, would probably upgrade Omnis. They may even have Omni Protos, BAs---maybe, just maybe---even OmniWarships. The thought of the last would be very scary.

I think in the end the Word would have better pilots (since cybernetics seems to outclass genetic modification) but the Society would likely have better Mech and vehicle tech. This is all just pure speculation at this point however, but much of the conflict would be effected by what technologies the sides pursued after consolidating power. WHat kinds of technologies do you think the two different sides would pursue?

[Lord Harlock]

You forget that the Society also had a higher understanding of genetics than probably anyone else. The big problem is they actually wanted to use it. The second coming of the Word of Blake whatever form it may take will look probably human. If the remnants of the Society ever show up again, they may well be more monstrous than the genecaste. Imagine Cthullu wearing mech armor as his morning coat.

[Minemech]

I am aware of the size of their navy. It was matched if not exceeded by the vessels in the Clan OZs by '67, never mind the naval forces of the Homeworlds. We have done this dance before, and the argument in favour of the Word's strength requires it to have all 52 Divisions fully equipped at one time, which we know was never the case even before the Jihad kicked off. Whether the authors would have written a scenario in which the Word reduced a Clan OZ to a radioactive pestilent hellhole is unknowable, but in a conventional fight their ability to handle even Clan Wolf (the smallest Clan in the Sphere) by themselves is questionable.

Are you talking individual, or combined fleets?
 

[Lord Harlock]

Well, the combined fleet of the 3067 Inner Sphere Clans (Jade Falcons, Wolf, Ghost Bears, and the one lone Shark vessel) if all the warships were in the Inner Sphere at the time was 40 warships (that's counting even the two ships that were being repaired by the Ghost Bears and the ship that the Jade Falcons lost to Wolves in Exile). Now realistically, it's probably be more around 14 warships since the Wolves and Falcons probably had most of their fleets traveling the Exodus Road, in the Homeworlds dealing with other Clan fleets, or in the Ghost Bear case just getting repaired. (The real problem is that we don't exactly have pinpoints where each vessel is in canon for the time. Also, I'd figure the Word of Blake wouldn't pick a fight with the Nova Cats or Wolves-in-Exile. Also, I'm going to figure that except for the Ghost Bears that the fleets are in thirds between the Occupation Zone, Exodus Road, and Homeworlds.)

The Word of Blake on the other hand had 35 warships going by strictly the original ships of the fleet on page 128 of Final Reckoning. Now realistically, I'm going to cut off forty percent for being built or refurbished at the time. (Honestly, the Word of Blake built some Dantes at some point which weren't captured, and somehow I doubt that they had them ready in 3067 with everything else that was being refurbished at the time between Titan and Gabriel.) That means that the Word of Blake fleet would be about 21 ships in 3067 under my estimates.

If the Word had all their ships on the boarder at the time of 3067, they would have probably smote the Clan fleet not accounting for ship type, experience, tricks i.e. alamos, or even logistical questions. The big problem here for the Word is that they have reserves probably, but the Clans would have more if all the Clans in the Homeworlds immediately go crazy to avenge the Inner Sphere losses which gives maybe four months to a year to rebuild. The possibility exists that Khan Brett Andrews could cause the Wars of Reavings early by using the losses by the Inner Sphere Clans to justify trials of annihilation which would give the Word more breathing room as the Clans whack each other.  It's just a question of who could get their reserves there the fastest in the end.

The other issues is ground combat, and that would probably destroy the Word of Blake Militia Divisions if there are not combat multipliers such as NBC weapons involved.  The worst area on the ground for the Word would be the Ghost Bear Dominion since it held nearly all of their ground forces.

In the end, it'd be a  . . . draw.

[Lazarus Jaguar]

the possibly of the Manei Domini order surviving as a culture from the missing shadows is next to non existent.  they either packed up and headed for the clan home worlds for a suicide run,

My imagination is now inspired

[idea weenie]

Well, As interesting as it would be to see them fight, I'd rather consider an even scarier scenario:  What would have happened if the WoB and Society teamed up?

The Nova CEWS tech and bloodname killer diseases in exchange for the WoB construction capacity?  Let alone a nastier version of the SLOT computer virus.  Imagine not being able to coordinate interstellar communications except by Jumpship, while the other side has HPG comms.

At the very least, the two of them would have coordinate their attacks, using the D.R.U.M and the Chatterweb.

[Lord Harlock]

Well that really isn't an issue for the AFFS, LAAF, or DCMS either thanks to the Black Box.

[blackjack]

Well, As interesting as it would be to see them fight, I'd rather consider an even scarier scenario:  What would have happened if the WoB and Society teamed up?

I think that this has the possibility of happening. The Manei Domini could very well team up with the Society. They would share thier shiney toys with one another, they could come up with some very interesting tech going forward. True Machina Domini genetically designed  to interface with Protomechs.

[Peacemaker]

Frankly, I don't think we really know enough 'bout the Society to make definitive statements about them. The Wars of Reaving is an awesome resource, but it was compiled from whatever reports the Diamond Shark Watch agents could steal, most of which were more concerned with the Warrior-caste perspective than with the Society's methodology. The Society is a unknown quality and it probably always will be.

[Gabriels_Sword]

remember the WoB seen the clans as abominations - no way were they ever going to join with the society - support them and then turn on them yeah though :)

[Lazarus Jaguar]

remember the WoB seen the clans as abominations - no way were they ever going to join with the society - support them and then turn on them yeah though :)

SHHHH!  Don't spoil the ending!

[nova_dew]

you gotta consider how many of the Shadows had DNI implants of some kind, they are on a timer.  you also have to consider how many shadows either gave up their reproductive capability to be augmented, or took some vow of celibacy (given they are a religious order that rejects organic life as imperfect)

the possibly of the Manei Domini order surviving as a culture from the missing shadows is next to non existent.  they either packed up and headed for the clan home worlds for a suicide run, or settled down on a Hidden World or an uncharted one and live out their years as best they could.  by 3150, they will be extinct, anyone claiming their mantle being just as much pretenders to the throne as the second Star League.

And you know all this as fact how?

Not to mention that a society that is insular will tend to stay the same it's outside influences that change them just look at the clans. As for the VDNI implants they're not organic so can be transferred after the users death. All they need is a way of replacing numbers and they have no problems with just taking what they want person or property.

[Nahuris]

And you know all this as fact how?

Not to mention that a society that is insular will tend to stay the same it's outside influences that change them just look at the clans. As for the VDNI implants they're not organic so can be transferred after the users death. All they need is a way of replacing numbers and they have no problems with just taking what they want person or property.

Now I have images of insane cyborgs, harvesting parts from "frails" to keep themselves going..... they serve the Master, and await his call....

Nahuris

[Doy]

This Topic is old but i read it first today and wanna post too  }:)

I think ``The Society Cabal´´ is strong because of the smart scientists  who ruled them and te warriors are 100% Fanatics.
( WoB have Fanatics too, sure ... and some commanders are very smart to but not so many in numbers )

Both Factions are bad ass for sure, but the ``The Society Cabal´´ is smaller than the ``Word of Blake´´ in forces this is important,
both are ruthless to use any methode to destroy an oponent and they have a lot stuff for this to made trouble even in small numbers
( MY Personal Meanling: so long they have enought Units for a BT Game letzt jump in it and find out ;D )

But i think WoB would try to Overwelm them but The Society is hide in the Clans.
And i think WoB should win this Question becaus of The Society don't wanna find out who is stronger.
(Note i would play The Society Cabal and try to win)

1st Question: is When would they fight (because the jear made the diference how many of them is distroyed and active) ?
2nd Question: is what Unit we should use ?
3rd Question: what kind of ABC weapons they use and how many ?

4th and most important Question: What Miniaturs we have to use them for a CBT Game

[Von Jankmon]

The Society is a rational concept badly executed (sic).  Nerdy revolt is the logical consequence of a socialist doctrinarian caste system that represses the intelligentsia.

However the goals of the Society should have been limited to liberation and flight, not hegemony.  They certainly had the capability and resource to flee, and they should have, most likely would have looked at how to build a secssionist culture away from the clans, both in terms of location and doctine, rather than look at ways to get one over on the warrior caste.

In fact The Society only needs a hidden planet or two s staging areas, leave the clans alone and systemically evacuate those intellectuals who had had enough of warrior caste rule and want to quit to th staging areas.  Travel along the Freedom Road from that point on is strictly one way with exception of the ship crews operating the Road.

Scientist caste members would probably rather enjoy a working attempt at isolated Utopianism.  People could run into what results later, one way or another.

If Kael Pershaw was not so good at his job, it could be possible this is what actually happened.

[grimlock1]

True Machina Domini genetically designed  to interface with Protomechs.

Sooooo, Daleks?

[Von Jankmon]

Just realised how old the thread is.

[Crow]

WoB vs Society? That's really hard to say on a 1-on-1 level. Sure, the WoB have hyper-elite Manei Dominei suicide solders and the Society mostly uses drugged-up refurbished vat-born rejects with questionable morale, a lot of Society tech and tactics for nullifying Clan Warrior advantage would transfer pretty well to fighting Manei Dominei. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but the Nova CEWS would nullify c3i and Protomech Taser Armor would do a number to any WoB soldier's cyborg bits  >:D 

On a total force on force basis, while I have no doubt the Society could cause a lot of harm in the way of computer viruses and the like, the Society just doesn't have the numbers or the industrial capacity (that we know of) for a sustained fight. The Society isn't one for symmetric warfare, and that doesn't translate to a table top boardgame like this one very well.

[Natasha Kerensky]

If the Toasters deploy nukes before the Society deploys HPG warship viruses and DNA-targeted human viruses, then the Toasters win.

If the Society deploys HPG warship viruses and DNA-targeted human viruses before the Toasters deploy nukes, then the Society wins.

If neither side deploys their WMDs, then the Society wins.  Nova CEWS negates C3i.  iATM EMP warheads and EMP armor fry MD cyborgs.  iATM inferno warheads and plasma cannons will strengthen the disparity between Clantech and Spheroidtech heat dissipation.  And the Society already enjoys the advantages of Clantech range, damage, accuracy, speed, armor types, and weight/volume efficiency over Spheroidtech.

The only way the Society loses without WMDs is if they try to take over the Inner Sphere, in which case the long-standing issue of small Clan numbers versus large Spheroid numbers dominates.

But short of a massive surprise nuclear strike, the Society could fend off a Toaster assault on the Homeworlds, perhaps easily.

I kind of wish the Society had won the WoR and there was a stronger Toaster presence in exile focused on taking the fight to the Homeworlds.  Even if the outcome is rather preordained, it would have been a good and different kind of BT showdown.

[Cyc]

I haven't gone digging in aerospace combat, but is there any means to defeat Erinyes asteroid bombardment assuming the target was aware of the asteroid approach?

[Crow]

Just realized that a WoB vs Society fight would feature Erinyes vs Erinyes (protomech). Maybe that's what TPTB were afraid of?

[idea weenie]

If the Society deploys HPG warship viruses and DNA-targeted human viruses before the Toasters deploy nukes, then the Society wins.

I thought the Society was able to do this because they already had programs in the various Warship HPG programs, and access to the warrior caste mitochondrial DNA?  Did they have something like this set up for the WoB also?

If neither side deploys their WMDs, then the Society wins.  Nova CEWS negates C3i.  iATM EMP warheads and EMP armor fry MD cyborgs.  iATM inferno warheads and plasma cannons will strengthen the disparity between Clantech and Spheroidtech heat dissipation.  And the Society already enjoys the advantages of Clantech range, damage, accuracy, speed, armor types, and weight/volume efficiency over Spheroidtech.

And if they fought, it would be Mech force vs Mech force, and Clan Warriors might smirk that the Society finally learned how to fight properly (getting in a combat platform and fighting).

As for Erinyes vs Erinyes, well, there is something about throwing the first stone that comes to mind.

[Natasha Kerensky]

I thought the Society was able to do this because they already had programs in the various Warship HPG programs, and access to the warrior caste mitochondrial DNA?  Did they have something like this set up for the WoB also?

No.  Even if the Society was faintly aware of the Jihad and Toasters, they would have no reason to believe that the Toasters are coming for the Homeworlds.  (Maybe if the Society took over the Homeworlds during the WoR and erected a much better intelligence operation than the Clan Watch some decades later.  But not during the WoR/Jihad.)

That said, I think we could handwave two things if the Society knew the Toasters were coming for the Homeworlds:

1) With limited exceptions, Clan and Toaster warships are both old SLDF models.  Presumably there is some old, core SLDF operating system common to both that the Society could attack with computer viruses.

2) The Society created viruses that could wipe out trueborn individuals, blood heritages, and entire warrior phenotypes.  Most clanners, including Society members and other civvies, probably have some trueborn DNA after a couple centuries of warrior test-downs into and reproduction with lower castes.  Presumably the Society could create DNA-targeted viruses that leave anyone with a certain percentage of trueborn/warrior phenotype DNA alone (i.e., most or nearly all Clanners) but target those without that DNA (i.e., nearly all Spheroids).

And if they fought, it would be Mech force vs Mech force,

Actually, both forces made heavy use of combined arms, so I think we'd see lots of tankers, infantry, etc. too.

As for Erinyes vs Erinyes, well, there is something about throwing the first stone that comes to mind.

Because there were only one or two of these ships, they're really only good for cleanup in the Homeworlds.  The Blakies would want to use their Q-ships to launch lots of nukes against the Homeworlds first.  The Toaster warships, Erinyes, and/or Shadow Divisions are only large enough in number (especially after the Jihad) for escorting the nukes and eliminating weakened survivors.

But as the Regulans have shown, you can make a lot of nuke warheads and convert a lot of Mules to deliver them in fairly short order.