Naval Pictures III: Splice The Main Brace!

[Stormlion1]

That's gotta be some good-quality steel there...

Yep, even after all these years you can walk up to it, and all the other big guns scattered around Fort Miles and get a good idea what we could make in the past and even with little to no maintenance most is in good shape.

[DoctorMonkey]

The UK has a couple of big guns on display outside the Imperial War Museum in London but I think they are 15"


To be honest, the 6" battery of HMS Belfast seem plenty-big, especially when you look at the map of their range and (from Central London) they can hit anything that might be called London


http://londonist.com/2015/02/why-do-the-guns-of-hms-belfast-point-at-a-motorway-service-station

[DaveMac]

Yep, both 15"

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30025302

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30025301

[I am Belch II]

Neat range chart.

[kato]

Should be centered on Belfast, not London.

[Dragon Cat]

The UK has a couple of big guns on display outside the Imperial War Museum in London but I think they are 15"


To be honest, the 6" battery of HMS Belfast seem plenty-big, especially when you look at the map of their range and (from Central London) they can hit anything that might be called London


http://londonist.com/2015/02/why-do-the-guns-of-hms-belfast-point-at-a-motorway-service-station

Unsaid it's aimed at the M1 to stop the hordes from the north (of which I am one) from reaching London  ;D O0

Cool chart

[Rainbow 6]

The UK has a couple of big guns on display outside the Imperial War Museum in London but I think they are 15"


To be honest, the 6" battery of HMS Belfast seem plenty-big, especially when you look at the map of their range and (from Central London) they can hit anything that might be called London


http://londonist.com/2015/02/why-do-the-guns-of-hms-belfast-point-at-a-motorway-service-station

There's an argument to be had that we'd be better off if they did hit most things within range.

[Weirdo]

There's an argument to be had that we'd be better off if they did hit most things within range.

 ???

[HobbesHurlbut]

Anywaaay! Post the most steampunkest real warship you have ever seen here!

[JadeHellbringer]

Someone always has to ruin the party...

Ah well. I'll open the fun. HMS Victoria, the pride of the Mediterranean fleet in the early 1890s. During fleet exercises, an error by the squadron commander, Admiral Tyron, caused her to be rammed by another battleship- she sank with the loss of approximately half of her crew.



Interestingly, the ship hit the ocean floor bow-first, and due to the weight of the main gun turret (a twin 16.25-inch mount) and the shafts still turning propelling her faster, she embedded herself into the ocean floor and stuck vertically. (Note the diver next to the shaft, and the single-mount 10" gun turret still in place)

[Rainbow 6]

Sorry about that, bad morning and bad taste.

[God and Davion]

Interestingly, the ship hit the ocean floor bow-first, and due to the weight of the main gun turret (a twin 16.25-inch mount) and the shafts still turning propelling her faster, she embedded herself into the ocean floor and stuck vertically. (Note the diver next to the shaft, and the single-mount 10" gun turret still in place)

IIRC it is one of the few wrecks that are vertical. Only a few Uboats have been found that way.

[Stormlion1]

Didn't I read it was beginning to tip over finally?

[JadeHellbringer]

Didn't I read it was beginning to tip over finally?

After well over a century, it wouldn't be surprising. If nothing else, I'd think by now corrosion would have caused her to fracture or something.

It's well worth looking up the inquiry into the incident, by the way, rather good reading.

[Stormlion1]

After well over a century, it wouldn't be surprising. If nothing else, I'd think by now corrosion would have caused her to fracture or something.

It's well worth looking up the inquiry into the incident, by the way, rather good reading.

I read about the accident in a book titled Dreadnought or maybe it was Castles of Steel. Not sure, I'm not sure where I read the HMS Victoria was falling over.

[JadeHellbringer]

Artwork of Japanese carrier Shinano, with an escorting destroyer on her first and only voyage. On the way to a finishing dock, she was sunk by a spread of torpedoes from USS Archer-Fish with heavy loss of life. Shinano (originally the third Yamato-class battleship before conversion during construction) remains the largest warship ever sunk by a submarine in combat.

[Wrangler]

I first read of the Shinano while reading a Readers Digest decades ago in the late 80s.  It was basically the story of it's first & last journey.
I do not recall in detail who's perspective it was the the story told from.  Its funny, the ship was never to actually had to been used in combat but merely a ferry ship of aircraft.   I do wonder if she had been fitted out, if she would fared better in Combat than her half-sisterships.

[I am Belch II]

I wonder how many planes the Shinano could carry. I remember only like 50 but could carry over a 100. It was even larger the Midway class it took a super carrier of the Forstalls to be larger.

[DoctorMonkey]

Wikipedia has a link to a reference when stating

"The ship's organic air group was intended to consist of 18 Mitsubishi A7M Reppū (Allied reporting name "Sam") fighters (plus two in storage), 18 Aichi B7A Ryusei ("Grace") torpedo-dive bombers (plus two in storage), and 6 Nakajima C6N Saiun ("Myrt") reconnaissance aircraft (plus one in storage).[7] The remainder of the hangar space would have held up to 120 replacement aircraft for other carriers and land bases.[8]"

They also say that

"The navy decided that Shinano would become a heavily armored support carrier[7]—carrying reserve aircraft, fuel and ordnance in support of other carriers—rather than a fleet carrier.[8]"

[Wrangler]

Perhaps it was about speed, she was a superbattleship with a flat top.  Carriers with reasonable speed to get to the scene or get out of dodge would  been a higher priority than a unique conversion ship.

[JadeHellbringer]

I wonder how many planes the Shinano could carry. I remember only like 50 but could carry over a 100. It was even larger the Midway class it took a super carrier of the Forstalls to be larger.

It's a tough question to answer. The idea was to operate her with only a few defensive fighters and scout planes of her own, and act as an 'extra' deck for other carrier's planes to land and take off from, allowing strike packages to be rearmed/refueled and sent back out after the Americans that much sooner. It's honestly a baffling idea, one which is met in every attempt to justify it with simply having its own aircraft as a better solution. So how many she could carry? Easily more than 100, probably closer to 160 or so if she needed to, but more likely in service she'd have carried less than 50 of her own.

I highly suggest the book 'Shinano!' by Joseph Enright as a resource to learn more about the sinking. Enright was the skipper of Archer-Fish during the operation, and it's hard to find a better account of an action than from the guy running the show during it. The portions written from the Japanese perspective get a bit iffy due to some odd choices to view things through Cpt. Abe's eyes (he went down with his ship, so musings about his personal thoughts on the voyage feel out of place and strange), but it's a good read regardless.

EDIT: Beat to it by DocMonkey.

[DoctorMonkey]

Perhaps it was about speed, she was a superbattleship with a flat top.  Carriers with reasonable speed to get to the scene or get out of dodge would  been a higher priority than a unique conversion ship.

It's a tough question to answer. The idea was to operate her with only a few defensive fighters and scout planes of her own, and act as an 'extra' deck for other carrier's planes to land and take off from, allowing strike packages to be rearmed/refueled and sent back out after the Americans that much sooner. It's honestly a baffling idea, one which is met in every attempt to justify it with simply having its own aircraft as a better solution. So how many she could carry? Easily more than 100, probably closer to 160 or so if she needed to, but more likely in service she'd have carried less than 50 of her own.

I highly suggest the book 'Shinano!' by Joseph Enright as a resource to learn more about the sinking. Enright was the skipper of Archer-Fish during the operation, and it's hard to find a better account of an action than from the guy running the show during it. The portions written from the Japanese perspective get a bit iffy due to some odd choices to view things through Cpt. Abe's eyes (he went down with his ship, so musings about his personal thoughts on the voyage feel out of place and strange), but it's a good read regardless.

EDIT: Beat to it by DocMonkey.

Reading the Wikipedia page and musing...


I think she was too complete as a battleship to easily convert to a good carrier


The Japanese wanted to free up the slipway she was being built on but she was more complete than they wanted to scrap so they rushed her conversion


The main things that were complete were the heavily armoured parts of the ship when the decision to convert was taken and having lost carriers to damage, this was a good way around that

[JadeHellbringer]

Some of the features to her battleship heritage actually made her attractive as a conversion- for example, the yawning chasms formed where the barbettes would have been made for excellent hoists for weaponry and other equipment (the location of the forward elevator is not a coincidence, I'd wager). You are correct though in that the conversion was rushed- and not in a helpful way. That Shinano left port in the incomplete state she was in (watertight doors not installed, bulkheads still not sealed, pumps inoperable, etc.) is damned near criminal. It's hard to justify a ship sailing in open water in that state in any situation, let alone one where you know enemy submarines and aircraft own the region.

[Wrangler]

Falling into the (What if they had finish building her category)  The Supercarrier that was never completed,  USS United States CV-58.



She certainly would been odd duckling. Straight Flight deck with angled launching decks on both of her sides.
She was meant as means for the Navy to launch heavy 45 ton Nuclear Bombers from her flight deck to enemy force. Sort of very one side pony. This was sort of a competition between the US Navy and Air Force, which ended in the Navy losing its fight to build her, she was laid down but was soon cancelled.  As we know the US Navy found another means to launch nuclear strikes against enemy should it have come up.

[Kidd]

I understand that WW2 strike package sizes were functions of aircraft power, carrier speed and deck length; was Shinano too slow to be able to spot and launch a strike package bigger than those 40-some planes, rendering the rest of her air wing essentially spare aircraft?

[JadeHellbringer]

I understand that WW2 strike package sizes were functions of aircraft power, carrier speed and deck length; was Shinano too slow to be able to spot and launch a strike package bigger than those 40-some planes, rendering the rest of her air wing essentially spare aircraft?

Well, she wasn't as fast as ships like the Shokakus, but at 27 knots she wasn't SLOW either- certainly she'd have operated just fine at the 24-knot standard operation speed most Japanese task forces operated at, and wouldn't have slowed down other ships too much.

It literally was that she would only carry 40-50 planes of her own, and wouldn't launch strikes of her own as a result. When planes returned from strikes launched from other carriers (Taiho, Shokaku, etc.), the idea was that some of them would land on Shinano instead of on their original ship, and get turned around there for another sortie- and in doing so, the original ship (let's say Taiho) only has to work on getting 45 planes of a 60-plane strike reloaded- and thus the next strike is ready to launch that much sooner. While it wasn't listed as a plan, it's likely that if one of the friendly carriers was wounded, Shinano (and her heavily armored flight deck) would take on as much of the stricken ships' air group as possible, mitigating the loss. (Note that Enterprise and Hornet took on much of Yorktown's returning strike packages at Midway after that ship was wounded, though part of their ability to do so was that there was space due to the losses to the air groups of all three ships)

Was this a good idea, as opposed to just giving Shinano a large air group of her own and using her as a large but conventional-styled aircraft carrier? I don't believe so. Would it have worked? Hard to say- the only other carrier to see service with a similar plan were a couple of British ships (Pegasus and the old Argus), neither of which ended up in a carrier duel to prove/disprove the idea. Either way, by the time Shinano was ready most of the ships she would have operated with were gone, and there weren't enough planes or fuel to allow her to really do anything if she'd needed to anyway. The Unryu-class were being completed, but few planes were available, the Shokakus and Taiho were gone... really it was an idea that two years earlier might have had SOME merit, but made her a dinosaur by the time she weighed anchor for the first (and last) time.

[ColBosch]

I'm going to put my foot down: it was a bad idea. Better instead to simply stagger your waves of aircraft - as the Japanese had some experience doing - so that while one ship is recovering, another is launching, and others' flights are in different stages of their attacks.

But then again, by this stage in the war Bushido had devolved about as far as it was going to go. I don't think it's a coincidence that the same month the Shinano was launched that the High Command approved kamikaze. I suspect there may be some historical whitewashing going on here, and the Shinano wasn't really intended to recover many aircraft at all...

[JadeHellbringer]

That's entirely possible as well. I've seen some speculation, in fact, that she may have been intended quietly as an Ohka-carrying platform. She was big enough that she may have been able to operate G4M Bettys and the like (though that's not confirmed)- the idea of launching one-way Ohka strikes is intriguing, or even waves of standard kamikaze planes like Jills and Zeroes.

[ANS Kamas P81]

That's entirely possible as well. I've seen some speculation, in fact, that she may have been intended quietly as an Ohka-carrying platform. She was big enough that she may have been able to operate G4M Bettys and the like (though that's not confirmed)- the idea of launching one-way Ohka strikes is intriguing, or even waves of standard kamikaze planes like Jills and Zeroes.

The first guided cruise-missile battleship, perhaps.  There's actually a scene in the third Axis of Time novel that fictionalizes a Japanese squadron+ of Ohka hitting a Soviet fleet, it's fairly effective.

[vidar]

Also by the time she was in conversion, the writing was on the wall about two things.  The pilot quality was dropping like a stone, so keeping a larger air group was unlikely as the pilots were not aviable.  And the losses due to damage and concentration of American flat tops means that to survive the Jappense needed to be able to suprise and then spread out and hide.  A strike group splitting up and landing in two places is hard to follow.