Author Topic: What if anything will the discontinuation of metal minis from GW mean for IWM?  (Read 30001 times)

beachhead1985

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So I just heard that GW is officially discontinuing all metal kits, as they are allegedly the largest buyer of metal in the gaming industry, what will this mean for IWM?

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Sigma

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Cheaper raw materials? ;D

If you are trying to imply that IWM should go plastic, Battletech doesn't sell the volume needed for a completely plastic line. With 3000+ different minis, and not even enough space for the simpler spin-casting silicone molds (thus the Archive), no way man.

I could probably buy the Battletech license from Topps for what it would take to upgrade to metal injection molds for that many minis.

JPArbiter

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since Tin has far more industrial uses then as the primary component of Pewter, I doubt seriously this will change much of anything.
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Wraithcannon

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I'll be cutting my fingers a lot less with the exacto knife?
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Stormlion1

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My dremal will get less of a work out?
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Mendou

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I won't be buying overpriced plastic minis for a game I don't play rather than not buying overpriced metal minis for a game I don't play?

Cergorach

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If you think that now that GW stops buying tin the price of tin will go down, I think you've misjudged on how much tin is used outside of the miniature games industry. What GW 'consumes' is a drop in the bucket (maybe even the sea), so it will not impact the price of tin.

As for IWM going plastic, CGL is already doing that (starter set, 2 Clan Mechs, the Clan Mech set that has been planned). Maybe IWM will eventually have to go with resin or a resinplastic (more flexible) when tin prices continue to rise, I doubt that they'll sell many BT figures when they'll be forced to ask $50 for a BT figure.

Going to plastic with a core Mech/vehicle line could be very profitable for CGL, but it would depend on how they would package such a product, making a single mold for each Mech would not be a smart idea. Anything that isn't mainstream/popular could be done in low volume in resin.

beachhead1985

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well, my first though was that it would be either good or bad, it did not occur to me that it would change nothing.

my thinking is/was that with GW out of the picture the price of metal would either drop because they were not buying it, or go up because the suppliers wouldn;t bother putting very much aside for the gaming industry.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

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I don't think the suppliers care very much, to which branch of industry their respective buyers belong.
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Jal Phoenix

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Or someone could try to convince our idiotic lawmakers that lead miniatures will not kill us. 

Cergorach

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Or someone could try to convince our idiotic lawmakers that lead miniatures will not kill us.
But I likr to chew on my mechs! To simulate battle damage of course... ;-)

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I knew a guy who liked to lick the tip of his paintbrush t a point before he dipped it in paint.  One night he got real sick, and when his wife threatened him with divorce if he didn't go, agreed to go to the ER.  Turns out he had lead poising from--guess what--painting his miniatures.  After it was all over he had a good laugh, but I don't think his wife ever did. 
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Jal Phoenix

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I can't comprehend licking my paintbrushes.  It's disgusting.  I don't think that would contribute to lead poisoning, though.  If he's doing it right, the brush would never even touch lead. 

greatsarcasmo

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Was he using lead based paint?
The amount of lead from the mini he would pick up from licking his paint brush would be infinitesimal. I would be more worried about all the other crap on the paint brush from the paint!
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Death Monkey

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Just to fill in the second half of the story beachhead1985 missed,  they are discontinuing the use of metal in their minis.  The same molds they've been using for their metal range will be put into service for resin mini production.  So same minis different material.  From what's been said on other forums, that will drop their materials price significantly, but due to extra time it takes resin to set, it'll likely raise their labor expenses. 

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This has not been confirmed.  Right now they are not sure what the future of the metal mini line is.  They have simply ceased production as of right now and will be evaluating what steps will be taken in the future. 

To be honest, I'm kinda curious how much of a back stock they are currently sitting on and how long they can go without producing any new metal castings. 

FedCom4Ever

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Isn't plastic a byproduct of oil?

I would hate to think that the price of my mini's would hinge on what we could get from the middle east or south America. Let's just stick with metal. Which probably comes from China anyways.  ???
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cavingjan

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Oil or cellulose

General308

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If you think that now that GW stops buying tin the price of tin will go down, I think you've misjudged on how much tin is used outside of the miniature games industry. What GW 'consumes' is a drop in the bucket (maybe even the sea), so it will not impact the price of tin.

As for IWM going plastic, CGL is already doing that (starter set, 2 Clan Mechs, the Clan Mech set that has been planned). Maybe IWM will eventually have to go with resin or a resinplastic (more flexible) when tin prices continue to rise, I doubt that they'll sell many BT figures when they'll be forced to ask $50 for a BT figure.

Going to plastic with a core Mech/vehicle line could be very profitable for CGL, but it would depend on how they would package such a product, making a single mold for each Mech would not be a smart idea. Anything that isn't mainstream/popular could be done in low volume in resin.

I would be happy if IWM would go with lead to lower the prices.    I don't put my mini's in my mouth so I would prefer cheaper minis.   Plastic for most minis will never happen though.

General308

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Or someone could try to convince our idiotic lawmakers that lead miniatures will not kill us.

Nothing prevents lead minis.  Reaper is doing it right now.  They have a whole line of them.  They are even doing it with some of there CAV minis as I understand

Stormlion1

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Lead miniatures, very useful when redcoats kill ones family and you need something to melt down and shoot at their killers.  ;)
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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I dislike lead minis.  They don't hold details as well as pewter.
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Jal Phoenix

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I dislike lead minis.  They don't hold details as well as pewter.

They hold the detail just fine.  In fact, they take it even better because they're softer and easier to carve.  Problem is, they're softer and easier to dent.  A teensey misstep with the file that wouldn't even mark a pewter mini can be devastating to a lead mini. 

Bedwyr

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I can't comprehend licking my paintbrushes.  It's disgusting.  I don't think that would contribute to lead poisoning, though.  If he's doing it right, the brush would never even touch lead.

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It's happened before.

:)
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Jal Phoenix

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More evidence that you shouldn't lick your damn paintbrush!  I have a cup of water right there on my desk.  Guess what it's for?  Somebody get these lickers a logic handbook!

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More evidence that you shouldn't lick your damn paintbrush!  I have a cup of water right there on my desk.  Guess what it's for?  Somebody get these lickers a logic handbook!

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beachhead1985

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so why did we get away from lead? was it the poisoning aspect? that does seem strange, not that lead is much easier to come by these days
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

cavingjan

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Just remember that you have issues (limited as they are) on the consumer end but you also have them on the manufacturing end. IWM may not want to deal with the safety headaches of lead anymore.

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IWM will not be headed back to lead minis. Had a conversation with Mike Noe about it after Reaper announced the P-65 line.  The gist of it comes down to the material may be cheaper, but the head aches accompanying it are not worth it. There are more strict guidelines for safety  concerns that could effectively negate that savings for a company as small as IWM.

 
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Charbok

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Yeah, I can't even imagine the amount of hoops a business would have to jump through to produce Lead minis.  You'd have EPA regs to follow, and all manner and sort of headaches to go with.  Totally not worth it, IMO.  Don't get me wrong, lead minis do take detail wonderfully, but they are fragile and you have to exercise caution with them.

General308

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so why did we get away from lead? was it the poisoning aspect? that does seem strange, not that lead is much easier to come by these days
Because parents and bussiness had a lead panic attack.   So everybody got scared of anything with lead.   Not that lead should be in kids toys don't get me wrong.   But minis are not toys.

General308

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IWM will not be headed back to lead minis. Had a conversation with Mike Noe about it after Reaper announced the P-65 line.  The gist of it comes down to the material may be cheaper, but the head aches accompanying it are not worth it. There are more strict guidelines for safety  concerns that could effectively negate that savings for a company as small as IWM.

Honestly they need to figure out something.   The price of minis today really hurts the whole market if you ask me.  I have trouble talking myself into some of them at the current prices.  Don't me wrong IWM isn't ripping ups off matteral cost has gone up.  But they need to find a more affordable matterial.


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Won't change the price one bit....

What I would like to see is a plastic mini (a battlemaster for example) that is highly detailed comes in like 30 pieces with enough pieces to make any of the current variants that are out.

Posing positions and modding ease would go way up... I would pay more for that option than what we have now. The maker could then sell the base pieces separate so that you could then use the extra bits to make another at a little cheaper price.

Then if you wanted to go over the top you could have one chassis and with rare earth magnets have several variants depending on the game....  :D
There would be less humans if they were tastier....

Bedwyr

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Won't change the price one bit....

What I would like to see is a plastic mini (a battlemaster for example) that is highly detailed comes in like 30 pieces with enough pieces to make any of the current variants that are out.

Posing positions and modding ease would go way up... I would pay more for that option than what we have now. The maker could then sell the base pieces separate so that you could then use the extra bits to make another at a little cheaper price.

Then if you wanted to go over the top you could have one chassis and with rare earth magnets have several variants depending on the game....  :D

<aside>

You're alive!!!
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sounguru

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<aside>

You're alive!!!

I have been just not on the forums...  :P
There would be less humans if they were tastier....

Bedwyr

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I have been just not on the forums...  :P

Hi!!! :)


<back to conversation>
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General308

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Won't change the price one bit....

What I would like to see is a plastic mini (a battlemaster for example) that is highly detailed comes in like 30 pieces with enough pieces to make any of the current variants that are out.

Posing positions and modding ease would go way up... I would pay more for that option than what we have now. The maker could then sell the base pieces separate so that you could then use the extra bits to make another at a little cheaper price.

Then if you wanted to go over the top you could have one chassis and with rare earth magnets have several variants depending on the game....  :D

Plastic would be nice but the start up cost is so high

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I would love to see the price of miniatures go down, but I doubt it will effect the price.
Walking the fine line between sarcasm and being a smart-ass

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Looks like the prices increased rather than the other way around like some people may have expected.

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Yep, check out the announcement:

http://ironwindmetals.com/d/node/1624

"Rapidly rising pewter prices have necessitated Iron Wind Metals to do an in-depth check on the actual costs of our various products. As a result of this cost check we will be instituting a price raise on some BattleTech SKU’s effective 5/1/2011. Rather than an across the board raise, we are limiting the raises to those SKU’s most in need of adjustment.
We will be raising the MSRP on six BattleTech Clamshell Sets and 146 BattleTech Blister Pack SKU’s.
The effected SKU’s are listed on the attached Excel Spreadsheet.
We are now reviewing our Fantasy lines and may have another limited increase there in May.

Current prices will be honored through end of business on Friday April 29th.

Mike Noe"

Looks like I have to clear my shopping cart before the end of April!

Jal Phoenix

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Most of those price increases are insignificant, but I love how those tiny Scout Drones jumped by $3.  Still, it's getting time for me to find a new hobby.  $15 for a single mini is just too much, especially when the first ones I ever bought were $3.50. 

sounguru

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Most of those price increases are insignificant, but I love how those tiny Scout Drones jumped by $3.  Still, it's getting time for me to find a new hobby.  $15 for a single mini is just too much, especially when the first ones I ever bought were $3.50.

Ahhhhh ...  the good old days... I still have dreams of the dragon I bought for $19.50 that all metal and stood 11" tall...  ;)

I still think high detailed plastic with lots of options is the way to go but no one listens to me anyway...  ::)
There would be less humans if they were tastier....

JadeHellbringer

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Ahhhhh ...  the good old days... I still have dreams of the dragon I bought for $19.50 that all metal and stood 11" tall...  ;)

I still think high detailed plastic with lots of options is the way to go but no one listens to me anyway...  ::)

On the bright side, at least you finally noticed that.  ;D
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sounguru

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On the bright side, at least you finally noticed that.  ;D

I go away for a year and you are still slinging  :-X at least I now know the world is well....  ;D ;D ;D
There would be less humans if they were tastier....

General308

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Yep, check out the announcement:

http://ironwindmetals.com/d/node/1624

"Rapidly rising pewter prices have necessitated Iron Wind Metals to do an in-depth check on the actual costs of our various products. As a result of this cost check we will be instituting a price raise on some BattleTech SKU’s effective 5/1/2011. Rather than an across the board raise, we are limiting the raises to those SKU’s most in need of adjustment.
We will be raising the MSRP on six BattleTech Clamshell Sets and 146 BattleTech Blister Pack SKU’s.
The effected SKU’s are listed on the attached Excel Spreadsheet.
We are now reviewing our Fantasy lines and may have another limited increase there in May.

Current prices will be honored through end of business on Friday April 29th.

Mike Noe"

Looks like I have to clear my shopping cart before the end of April!

It is a real shame too.  I don't get my bounus till  end of month.   I Had planed do do some shoping   but at these new prices......Well I will at lest be avoiding the ones with the price hikes.   Just not willing to keep paying more and more for minis.    The good news is they are not raising the cost of everything.

That said these new prices tell me they have to look to something else.  CAV mini prices going down or stable battlemech prices going up.  At some point it is just to much for one game peice.

JadeHellbringer

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I go away for a year and you are still slinging  :-X at least I now know the world is well....  ;D ;D ;D

I'll be here to ban cockroaches after the apocalypse, good sir.

Good to have you back, by the way :)
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Fortunately, I either already own or am not interested in getting anything on that list.

But these price hikes are becoming annoying (not that it's IWM's fault that the raw materials and business costs keep going up).
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General308

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Fortunately, I either already own or am not interested in getting anything on that list.

But these price hikes are becoming annoying (not that it's IWM's fault that the raw materials and business costs keep going up).

These price hikes are anoying and you are right it isn't there fault.  But at some point a prodouct reaches a point were it just cost to much.  Minis are very close to that point now

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Yeah, I refuse to pay more than $13-14 for a mini, so some of the bigger ones are being priced out of my range now.  Likewise, I don't want to pay 10 bucks for a small mini like the Solitaire.
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Stingray

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These price hikes are anoying and you are right it isn't there fault.  But at some point a prodouct reaches a point were it just cost to much.  Minis are very close to that point now

To a point yes.... but a mini is still the cost of what... 2 or 3 drinks at the bar which are downed in one night to never (hopefully) be seen again.

I do agree the cost of miniature games is NOT helping. Video games have stayed pretty consistent (new wise), and with things like Steam allowing you to buy an older (but awesome) game for $5-$15 its not helping at all.

Honestly I would really like to see alongside these price hikes IWMs start kicking up quality control... its one area they have a bit better control of. Also has anyone in the gaming industry started looking at other alloy/metals to try in make things cheaper or is it a "stuck in our ways" sort of deal?

sounguru

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There are other options but the start up cost is high or as you put it they are stuck in their ways.
There would be less humans if they were tastier....

General308

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To a point yes.... but a mini is still the cost of what... 2 or 3 drinks at the bar which are downed in one night to never (hopefully) be seen again.

I do agree the cost of miniature games is NOT helping. Video games have stayed pretty consistent (new wise), and with things like Steam allowing you to buy an older (but awesome) game for $5-$15 its not helping at all.

Honestly I would really like to see alongside these price hikes IWMs start kicking up quality control... its one area they have a bit better control of. Also has anyone in the gaming industry started looking at other alloy/metals to try in make things cheaper or is it a "stuck in our ways" sort of deal?

Well Reaper started using with there old lead tin pewter a while back and have been expanding it.   Even my understanding moving the CAV line into it.   So at lest one industry player is looking at other alternitives.

At some point you have to ask will players keep paying the cost if they keep going up.  Again I understand IWM can't control the cost of the metal they use.   But maybe they can find something else.   Not saying there is any easy answers in this.

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I'm not sure what all the complaints are about. $16 now was $10 in 1990. Looks like IWM's keeping up with inflation. Given rising material costs, it does mean they're working out waste.

Comparisons to other companies in a niche industry is always a matter of apples and melons. Just because company X can do it doesn't mean it's even sightly reasonable or fair to expect Y to follow suit. You can do that for industries with millions of customers.

Paul
The solution is just ignore Paul.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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In 1990 I wasn't buying minis.

I am buying minis right now, and the price is going up while my income isn't going up (actually, my income is substantially down since I've been unemployed since returning to school).
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sounguru

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I'm not sure what all the complaints are about. $16 now was $10 in 1990. Looks like IWM's keeping up with inflation. Given rising material costs, it does mean they're working out waste.

Comparisons to other companies in a niche industry is always a matter of apples and melons. Just because company X can do it doesn't mean it's even sightly reasonable or fair to expect Y to follow suit. You can do that for industries with millions of customers.

Paul

If the quality matched the price I wouldn't care what the price is. A ford pinto isn't worth anymore today than it was when it was new. ;D

I would pay more than we are now for a very well detailed and complex mini with a lot of options than some of the hunks of lead we see today from a lot of different companies. I would love to see a master line where QC, sculpting, and options are the main concern even if is made of plastic or some other material. I would happily pay $20+ a mini for something of that quality, but too pay $16 for something that is poorly sculpted, badly cast, or has no options is not worth it. I don't care if it is a mech or a dragon the beauty of the sculpt and what can be done with it to me is worth a higher price than what we see today for poor casting and sculpting.

Yes I fully understand that it cost money to make those types of minis in plastic or metal, but it takes money to make money and simply seeing a raise in price with no change in quality is a killer for any company no matter who they are.

We will not see a price drop from this and will actually see an increase in the days to come because world demand is not hit one iota by GW getting out. Sadly though if there is no increase in quality I will spend the few dollars I have on other things than something that is just okay or sub-par of the price in my book.

Well enough said off to look for more minis to buy....
There would be less humans if they were tastier....

Jal Phoenix

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I'm not sure what all the complaints are about. $16 now was $10 in 1990. Looks like IWM's keeping up with inflation.

1990 was when I was buying the aforementioned $3.50 minis.  In fact, I think that year or the next was when the first $5 mini made its debut, the King Crab.  I was buying the lance packs for $15 in 1990, not individual minis for $10.  They didn't reach $10 until 2003 or so.

Then there is the quality Sounguru mentioned.  Every mini from 1990 is superior to most of today's minis.  I don't want to continue to buy Warlords, Titan IIs and Grand Crusaders at increased price points.  IWM hasn't produced a stinker for some time now, but they've come close on a few.  Their QC in general isn't always what it could be.  Scaling, bad mold lines and missing pieces continue to be common complaints. 


General308

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I'm not sure what all the complaints are about. $16 now was $10 in 1990. Looks like IWM's keeping up with inflation. Given rising material costs, it does mean they're working out waste.

Comparisons to other companies in a niche industry is always a matter of apples and melons. Just because company X can do it doesn't mean it's even sightly reasonable or fair to expect Y to follow suit. You can do that for industries with millions of customers.

Paul

Because at some point a mini they just cost to much.  Min wage was what 5.15 an hour in 1990 so you could buy a mini for the cost of less than a hour work even if you made very little. Wages have not riced with inflation.  So that is apples to melons as you put it  Now me personally I make alot more money  than then but I just don't think a mini is worth the extra cost.

It may be apples and melons in your eyes but to most consumers it is not.  Because all a customer knows is that if Company x sold the product we could get it for less than company Y.

No matter what product and no matter how much it cost there is always a point were the customer says "I don't think so"   That is were the consumer has control to buy or not to.      High prices can do a lot to kill a niche industry if the consumers will no longer pay the price
« Last Edit: 14 April 2011, 08:31:25 by General308 »

Paul

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I would pay more than we are now for a very well detailed and complex mini with a lot of options than some of the hunks of lead we see today from a lot of different companies.

I thought the multi-part minis of, say, the Marauder and Warhammer were generally reviled? If so, then it wouldn't make sense for any company to revisit that.


Quote
Yes I fully understand that it cost money to make those types of minis in plastic or metal, but it takes money to make money and simply seeing a raise in price with no change in quality is a killer for any company no matter who they are.

Great, I think that with that post, IWM will suddenly find the massive pile of cash they need to make that change. Because they're just sitting on it right now, stuffing their mattress with it.
They just didn't realize that reinvesting it all in to their business makes any sense. They're kinda dense like that, despite being in the mini business since the 80s. Sad, really.
Good thing we're here to tell them stuff they don't already know.

Paul
The solution is just ignore Paul.

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I do agree the cost of miniature games is NOT helping. Video games have stayed pretty consistent (new wise), and with things like Steam allowing you to buy an older (but awesome) game for $5-$15 its not helping at all.

Not only old games. There's quite a bit of an indy game market growing on Steam in the $10 price range.

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Min wage was what 5.15 an hour in 1990 so you could buy a mini for the cost of less than a hour work even if you made very little.
It was $4.25 in 1994.  Three hours of work at my uncle's electric company would buy two 'Mechs, although in all honesty if it wasn't going towards gas and the girlfriend, it was buying BT sourcebooks first.   ::)

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The sad part is they do already know they just have not done anything about it.  Poor casting, horrible scale issues, etc.  Other lines that have been around for that length of time have improved, IWM in my opinion has declined.  Even though the tin shortage driving up metal costs might not be related to that, the combination will still most likely effect sales.    Personally I am not paying $15 for a miniature of that quality when other companies can get it right.  GW's action won't effect the market one bit.  China is the key there and GW is no where close to China size.

Injection molded plastic is too costly to start up cause you have to have huge numbers to make back the cost of machining the molds and CBT doesn't have the sales to do it.  Lead has too many issues that won't be made up for if used.  That leaves resin.  Easily convertible, good characteristics if dropped, and around $5/pound depending on what quality you use.  New detailed sculpts with scale to each other in resins would make money and not break the bank when we wanted to buy them.  IWM shall have to adapt or suffer because they have already proven staying in the same place won't get them anywhere.  Just my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: 14 April 2011, 09:23:55 by Rom Precentor »

sounguru

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I thought the multi-part minis of, say, the Marauder and Warhammer were generally reviled? If so, then it wouldn't make sense for any company to revisit that.

Simply put that is because there have been very few minis that were made that way and the one piece look like it is dropping a turd pose has become the norm.  I have hated the one or 2 piece mini since day one and if you look at other lines and the way they are made there are very few that come with so few pieces.

One of the advantages of the multi piece mini is that the posing and modification levels go way up which is often overlooked because one piece is now the norm. But times are a changing and more serious miniature painters and artist are now part of the hobby. One of the biggest pains of a mini that I ever put together was the old Marauder and it is one of the most popular sculpts of old because it was one of the better in detail, art, and casting.

A lot of the new Marauder and Warhammers downfall (although I love the new Warhammer) has nothing to do with the # of pieces it is the art it is based off off, so they had an uphill climb from the start.

Quote
Great, I think that with that post, IWM will suddenly find the massive pile of cash they need to make that change. Because they're just sitting on it right now, stuffing their mattress with it.
They just didn't realize that reinvesting it all in to their business makes any sense. They're kinda dense like that, despite being in the mini business since the 80s. Sad, really.
Good thing we're here to tell them stuff they don't already know.

Paul

I never said it was just IWM problem there are more people involved than just one company. IWM may have a contract saying that they are the only BT mini maker out there, but contracts can be changed, worked around, or they do run out. I have been and still am involved in QC of a couple of minis now and we will not send anything to the final stages until we are sure we have it as close to right as we can get it. Again it all goes back to QC funny how that works. When I ran my photography business I fired a few printers because their quality control sucked and it was hurting my business, or I talked with them and figured out what was needed to improve that quality. Don't tell me good quality can't be done there are a lot and I mean a lot of lines that produce higher detailed minis out there and do it for the same price range so it is up to TPTB across the board to finally get off the duff and figure out what can be done to change it.

Sadly as long as BT is looked at as a board game and that miniatures are secondary to it I don't see that attitude changing even when 99% of the people who play the game play with miniatures.

But enough has been said about this we are off base of the main subject and from my past experiences I know that things are falling on deaf ears. :-\ So as far as this conversations goes I'm out of here...
« Last Edit: 14 April 2011, 10:41:28 by sounguru »
There would be less humans if they were tastier....

Stingray

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I agree with Sounguru... While IWMs has been good to us (for the most part) a little competition could really help even if its just to motivate IWMs to make sure they stay on their A game (They have a good A game but often it seems like they don't mind letting the benchwarmers out either. At times I feel like they have eh close enough its a body on the field (or a sculpt for a mech))...

Also IMHO the idea Battletech is a board game is more damaging than good, and is just an excuse people hide behind. No other board I know have has books and books of fluff and so much background and detail to it. Those are reserved for miniature games, and I would also like to add Battletech seems to be sold alongside Warhammer 40k, and not Risk or Monopoly. In fact the reason Battletech had a good presence without a starter box is because its NOT A BOARD GAME.

I would like to see Settlers of Catan survive so well for 2+ years without having a starter set.

General308

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I thought the multi-part minis of, say, the Marauder and Warhammer were generally reviled? If so, then it wouldn't make sense for any company to revisit that.


Great, I think that with that post, IWM will suddenly find the massive pile of cash they need to make that change. Because they're just sitting on it right now, stuffing their mattress with it.
They just didn't realize that reinvesting it all in to their business makes any sense. They're kinda dense like that, despite being in the mini business since the 80s. Sad, really.
Good thing we're here to tell them stuff they don't already know.

Paul

Paul, kind why so defensive.  I think we have all agreed that it isn't IWM fault that they have to raise prices.  Those that don't like the price hike have all said that. But at some point the prices are going to hit a breaking point.       When that happens if they haven't found a cheaper material to use IWM will go out of buisness.   Now this round of price increases will not do that.  But you have to admit at some point players will say "I don't think so"

I don't know the solution.   But IWM as a company better look for whatever that is.     These prices are bad for Battletech.

Paul

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Paul, kind why so defensive.

I get irritated when someone says stuff like "Company XYZ should do >REALLY_OBVIOUS_THING< to do better. Sure, it's expensive, but you gotta invest. They're stupid for not doing it."


Quote
But IWM as a company better look for whatever that is.     These prices are bad for Battletech.

Yeah, like that. Why these assumptions that this is stuff that IWM isn't thinking about too? Do they seem that idiotic or out of touch to everyone? Really?
If you have to jump to conclusions about what's going on, why can't those conclusions be based on something positive instead?

Irritating.

Paul
The solution is just ignore Paul.

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I would hate to think that the price of my mini's would hinge on what we could get from the middle east or south America. Let's just stick with metal. Which probably comes from China anyways.  ???

The vast majority of tin comes from one area in a single country and said country has decided to experiment with market manipulation because of its effective monopoly on tin.  Last I heard, they instituted an across the board 3X price increase in 2010 and signaled that more increases would be on the way. 

The country decided to do this because the global economic downturn had been hard on it, but their attempt to generate revenue through their monopoly has made tin alternatives suddenly economically viable and in turn the demand for tin is likely to drop in the near future as that alternative tech comes online.  Unless some sanity returns, future economics texts will use this as the classic death spiral example at the macroeconomic level.

-Jackmc


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If you have to jump to conclusions about what's going on, why can't those conclusions be based on something positive instead?

Irritating.

Paul


You're expecting gamers to be positive? Are you new here? ;)
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General308

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I get irritated when someone says stuff like "Company XYZ should do >REALLY_OBVIOUS_THING< to do better. Sure, it's expensive, but you gotta invest. They're stupid for not doing it."


Yeah, like that. Why these assumptions that this is stuff that IWM isn't thinking about too? Do they seem that idiotic or out of touch to everyone? Really?
If you have to jump to conclusions about what's going on, why can't those conclusions be based on something positive instead?

Irritating.

Paul

I think people do have positive concluisions on things IWM does well.  I think the reaction to example them casting the new infantry and the like has been positive from players.  Players have had a very positive reaction to the Fan fund sculpt program.   So I think to say that there are no positive conclusions is unfair.

Price is a whole other issue.   You know you stated earlier on you can't compare one niche company to another.  The thing is that customers do just that.  Why because it is there money to be spent.     I have spent a lot of money on this game in my life time.  Plan to spend more.    But I also look at the crude load of minis I have unpainted and go "Do I really need a $15 mini that if I ever do paint will look like crap"   ( I don't paint very well).   I am not worried about the QC of the mini's because IWM does a good job of taking care of the customer in my opinion.    But price is going to make or brake game companies in the end.   I believe with each price increase it is that much close to people walking away.   

All that said I want to see IWM do well.  In the end though they are a company and they do have to make a profit.  I have no problem with that.   I like companies making money.    At the same time there is a limit to what I will or won't spend for any given product.

beachhead1985

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I really don't think quality has been so bad, yes i've been dissapointed a time or too and yes, alot of that has to do with my own sense of asthetics and my personal vision for what the game I love is...

*cough* smaller heads, bigger legs, no bowman crotch! *cough*

but by and large i've been impressed, with the depth and breadth of the line if nothing else.

we ARE saddled with crappy art once in a blue moon, either a hopelessly fugly unit that you either love for it's fugliness or hate, or simply poor perspective within the art that makes the unit look bad, but again, our artists hit way more often than they miss.

but again; breadth! look at the variety of the line! and IWM even archives old molds for the hardcore fans.

I mean look no farther than the loooooooooooooong awaited Aerotech-I fighters coming out now for an example of what is in fact a fanservice to a small minority of the fanbase. Me I love me some Thunderbirds and I put Aeros at the top of my list everytime I place an order, but alot of people don't, yet IWM still puts the effort in.

and they are responsive to our desires too, they care about our imput. is there any doubt in anyone's mind here exactly what GW thinks about fan's who'd rather not buy all new books every few years?

and finally I think we're too hard on the simpler casts, for a beginner, those are much, much liess intimidating than say; a 19-peice kit which needs to be drilled and tapped with tools he doesn't have yet. but at the same time, yes, i can see how a 1-peice jumping panther is less interesting to an accomplished craftsman, so I like both.

Now I haven;t played much in the past few years and admittadly, when i buy a lot on ebay and see it comes with a fiddly peice like a timberwolf, yeah, i do sigh and roll my eyes; I am NOT the greatest builder and i can't paint worth anything, but I look at a mini for the unit it represents and it has to be pretty bad *cough* Kraken *cough* for me to not at least consider it as something to shoot at when I do finally play next.
« Last Edit: 17 April 2011, 12:49:00 by beachhead1985 »
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invallid effort

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but by and large i've been impressed, with the depth and breadth of the line if nothing else.



I mean look no farther than the loooooooooooooong awaited Aerotech-I fighters coming out now for an example of what is in fact a fanservice to a small minority of the fanbase. Me I love me some Thunderbirds and I put Aeros at the top of my list everytime I place an order, but alot of people don't, yet IWM still puts the effort in.

and they are responsive to our desires too, they care about our imput. is there any doubt in anyone's mind here exactly what GW thinks about fan's who'd rather not buy all new books every few years?

and finally I think we're too hard on the simpler casts, for a beginner, those are much, much liess intimidating than say; a 19-peice kit which needs to be drilled and tapped with tools he doesn't have yet. but at the same time, yes, i can see how a 1-peice jumping panther is less interesting to an accomplished craftsman, so I like both.

:Rant begins:
Now I've been creeping around here since the boards went down (and since class has been real intense haven't been real active since then) but now I feel obligated to post  :o.

 I have to agree with alot said on this topic I think one of the best things about IWM and the ptb with battle tech is the fact that they are so responsive to fan input It seems that the way things are run here is more like an open community with input accepted and mainly listened to whereas other companies (....GW) expect the average peons to bow before all they do (excessive...Maybe #P) now granted when people shout THE PRICES ARE TOO HIGH they dont listen but honestly what company would and its not like this is the only thing increasing in price, what isn't more expensive now than it was 2 years ago, or even 6 months ago< IS it really that shocking that a mini that used to cost 12$ is now 15$ when a cup of coffee that used to be 1.29 is now 3+$ :-[

The fan funding program and the fact that there is sooooo much variation in the bt products sold IMHO is one of the best things to happen to any miniatures company and granted the prices are going up (some to real eye watering levels for a college student) but id rather pay a little more to support a company that listens to people when they suggest something than just marks the email as spam :P

Granted there may be better ways to do things and more detailed minis out there but as far as recent releases go for the most part the sculpts have been quite nice, the fact of the matter is IWM IS the company that makes BT minis and if people dont support them a great game that has already fallen out of the lime-light may take a body blow it would be hard to recover from. granted from time to time scale and mold lines do deserve some complaint but from the amount of flak IWM has taken from the community here makes it seem like they killed everyones family pet not raised the prices 3$
:Rant ends:

Im gonna get some coffee
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General308

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I think we would all agree IWM does a lot of things right.  The fan sculpt program is great.     I don't think anyone has tried to state IWM is just raising prices because they want to do so.    The current prices I think in the end mean less impulse buying.

invallid effort

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hehehe... I read this topic after being sleep deprived for about a day so my response may have sounded stronger than I intended....ooops ;D, so after a few hrs sleep and a cup of the aforementioned coffee I apologize for my rant and  didnt mean to sound like a jerk or say people hate Iwm, in fact most of the posts were supportive and in my sleepless state misread ALOT of them :'(....im shutting up now :-X
« Last Edit: 17 April 2011, 16:41:26 by invallid effort »
"Fighting a Cauldron Born is a bit like fighting someone who shouts about lawn gnomes stealing their tea cozies, then punches you in the teeth."-Fallen_Raven

Nothing "frail" about tactical retreat

General308

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hehehe... I read this topic after being sleep deprived for about a day so my response may have sounded stronger than I intended....ooops ;D, so after a few hrs sleep and a cup of the aforementioned coffee I apologize for my rant and  didnt mean to sound like a jerk or say people hate Iwm, in fact most of the posts were supportive and in my sleepless state misread ALOT of them :'(....im shutting up now :-X

Heck if we didn't all rant the board would be dead.

Cergorach

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Pricing is a very painful subject, part of the problem is that BT miniatures aren't exactly common at (web)stores, especially the more popular ones. So often shipping is added to the total cost, for those of us that life on other continents things get really expensive with even more expensive shipping, taxes, and import fees.

But if you think BT miniatures have gotten expensive, you might want to look at the biggest pony in the park, GW. In 1988 they produced one of their first 40k plastic kits 30 plastic Space Marines for 9.99GBP, 23 years later they ask 23.00GBP for 10 plastic Space Marines. Almost seven times more expensive then 23 years ago. What I do have to give GW is that their plastic kits have gotten more detailed over the years.

Also keep in mind that IWM wasn't around 23 years ago, there was Ral Partha, eventually owned by FASA. Now IWM pretty much only makes licensed properties in primarily metal. I suspect that they have little to no knowledge/skill in producing plastic, I believe they even outsource their resin casting. They are primarily metal casters and are in pursuit to cast more metal, not move on to new/other materials, that's not their business. Not to mention that they aren't really developing their own properties, they are dependant on CGL/Topps for that and investing heavily in for example plastics (a long time investment) is very risky. Especially in the Mech market they have little to no competition, so there is very little business motivation to stife for excellence

If you want (high quality) plastic Mechs, that's CGL's boat you have to rock. As for "it's not possible to do the BT range in plastic", not if you want to do the entire range at one time it isn't, but I suspect that if some thought was put into the project you could get a long way with a few releases a year. Separate plastic hex bases, 10-12 Mechs per set (looking at the GW frames that would probably fit with the new Thor/Loki quality in mind), they could price that company of Mechs what you now pay for a lance. If you could get that quality/pricepoint into (web)gamestores on a global scale, demand would probably be enough to generate a hefty profit. But like I said, that's CGL's boat, if the unavailability of the starterset and now the core rulebook is any indication, they aren't organized enough to pull of a well timed plastic release schedule.

As a side note, I just bought an 'unseen Warhammer and Longbow' in plastic, 5" tall for $6.73 a piece. Perfect for 15mm/1:100 Battletech. They are a pain to assemble well, but the cheaper Gundam Bandai snapfit kits are a joy to put together. The 1:144 kits fit well (size wise) with the 15mm/1:100 Mechs. I bought a quad for $3.85 and it has six points of articulation, if you want a more detailed kit you can get one for around $13.47 with more weapon options, way more points of articulation, more details, different colored plastic for different parts, etc, they even transform if they have that ability (LAMs). They now even have a range of such high detailed kits that they have a highly detailed internal structure (kits are around $21.04).

Psyckosama

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honestly they need to start slowly converting over to resin bodies with metal accessories like arms and guns.

I think Spartan Games is an example of how to do it right. The market is rapidly changing and all metal is quickly becoming a liability.

Hell, my local FLGS doesn't even carry Btech anymore. :(

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I won't be buying overpriced plastic minis for a game I don't play rather than not buying overpriced metal minis for a game I don't play?

ok you have me confused so you don't play the game battletech or talking about something else but if you don't play the game battletech then why are you here?  im just confused and sorry.

Thank you Hikage
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ok you have me confused so you don't play the game battletech or talking about something else but if you don't play the game battletech then why are you here?  im just confused and sorry.

He doesn't play Warhammer.
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Ah thank you. 

Thank you Hikage
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He doesn't play Warhammer.

Mendou was also trying to be humorous/snarky about it.  He's not at all a fan of Games Workshop.

However, he has been playing (and enjoying) Battletech off and on since 1990 or so. (I should know. I've been his opponent in a lot of those games.)

HaplessWithDice

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I beleive someone mentioned a Resin that was weighty enough to be used sucessfully in exact same mods as the "Lead Free Pewter" that the industry is currently using.  It's cheap to obtain but sets at a significatly slower rate so it requires twice the time to set.  Thus meaning IWM would have to hire more people, or have people work longer shifts, in all raising labor costs.  The question I think becomes does this lead to a wash, savings, or increase?  My guess is wash.

As I don't know if any of you have noticed Privateer Press has switched a portion of their line over from metals to plastics/resin (Mostly their heavy Warjacks)

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PP switched some of their medium base minis, most light warjacks, and heavy warjacks over to plastic. The thing was that the prices did not go down at all... for a heavy warjack this is ok since if you are good with a drill and some tiny neodymium magnets you can create every heavy warjack for a faction on one chassis. The light jacks though, no change in price and yet only the one type of mini per pack (at least it looks that way)...

Except then PP goes and makes these huge 80mm base monstrosities out of metal for like $80.00us a piece...

I left WM & Hordes due to the absolute insanity of the power creep. It's not a slow creep, its like a yearly doubling of the insanity. I still love P3 paints... and I'll admit they make beautiful models, just not ones I'm gonna drop $80us on just to keep up.

Now I'll end my slightly off topic diatribe.

HaplessWithDice

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Well we got confirmation at least that the resin does exist on Mini-wargaming.com.  They basicly said that once the metals of all mini's sell out we will start seeing the resins, produced with the exact same molds.  So 0 change in the looks.  Which leads us to "If it works for the goose it will work for the gander" or "If GW can use this stuff, then so can IWM."

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Well we got confirmation at least that the resin does exist on Mini-wargaming.com.  They basicly said that once the metals of all mini's sell out we will start seeing the resins, produced with the exact same molds.  So 0 change in the looks.  Which leads us to "If it works for the goose it will work for the gander" or "If GW can use this stuff, then so can IWM."

Confirmation is directly on the GW mainpage.

HaplessWithDice

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Confirmation is directly on the GW mainpage.
:-[ good point.  Anyway I have a feeling IMW will/may if they are considering this take a watch and wait approach to see what happens and the quality that is produced.  That is if they have any plans to follow in the switch.

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PP switched some of their medium base minis, most light warjacks, and heavy warjacks over to plastic. The thing was that the prices did not go down at all... for a heavy warjack this is ok since if you are good with a drill and some tiny neodymium magnets you can create every heavy warjack for a faction on one chassis. The light jacks though, no change in price and yet only the one type of mini per pack (at least it looks that way)...

Except then PP goes and makes these huge 80mm base monstrosities out of metal for like $80.00us a piece...

I left WM & Hordes due to the absolute insanity of the power creep. It's not a slow creep, its like a yearly doubling of the insanity. I still love P3 paints... and I'll admit they make beautiful models, just not ones I'm gonna drop $80us on just to keep up.

Now I'll end my slightly off topic diatribe.

Those huge models you are talking about are not made of metal.  They are made of resin for the most part with maybe a few plastic and metal parts for some of the small parts and figures.  I still dont get how people say Im not going to drop that much money on a model to "keep up."  Those models are not a must have to play Warmachine or Hordes.  You can have a perfectly fine and fun game without the Battle Engines.  I play Warmachine on occasion when I get a chance to play it and I have no plans to purchase one of the Battle Engines.  Seeing as how the BE rules are and the fact that I play Cygnar and have 3 Hunter warjacks they dont scare me one bit.
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God and Davion

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Well we got confirmation at least that the resin does exist on Mini-wargaming.com.  They basicly said that once the metals of all mini's sell out we will start seeing the resins, produced with the exact same molds.  So 0 change in the looks.  Which leads us to "If it works for the goose it will work for the gander" or "If GW can use this stuff, then so can IWM."

  FoW use resin models mixed with metal parts. I have "worked" several tanks and I have to say that the detail level is almost as good as metal or plastic. The problem is that you can find "bubbles" of air in the miniature. This issue can be solved but it is not good to see.

  Another problem is that the miniature is more fragile. MORE fragile. Any attempt to mod it and even sanding can end with a broken part. They are so fragile that several parts of the miniature, like the gun barrels, are done in metal because a resin piece won't resist rough handling. 

 Finally , there's the small problem of resin dust. It is toxic.

 For me, resin is not the first option. It is the third, after plastic and metal. It is good for big pieces but not so good for mechs.
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HaplessWithDice

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  FoW use resin models mixed with metal parts. I have "worked" several tanks and I have to say that the detail level is almost as good as metal or plastic. The problem is that you can find "bubbles" of air in the miniature. This issue can be solved but it is not good to see.

  Another problem is that the miniature is more fragile. MORE fragile. Any attempt to mod it and even sanding can end with a broken part. They are so fragile that several parts of the miniature, like the gun barrels, are done in metal because a resin piece won't resist rough handling. 

 Finally , there's the small problem of resin dust. It is toxic.

 For me, resin is not the first option. It is the third, after plastic and metal. It is good for big pieces but not so good for mechs.
Intersting.  Given the nature of GW and their WYSiWYG game rules (Not found in battletech) one would suspect that they would chose something where conversion would be easier.  I wonder if there is only one Resin type, or just this one.  Thank you for brining this issues to the community.  This is the kind of thing we all would like to know when asking questions like this.  Plus the toxic issue for the dust since magnatising and such will be common (again for What You See is What You Get rules).  It sounds like a bad move for them.  And anything that fragile would be bad for us.

Again thanks

Shi_no_Kami

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Those huge models you are talking about are not made of metal.  They are made of resin for the most part with maybe a few plastic and metal parts for some of the small parts and figures.  I still dont get how people say Im not going to drop that much money on a model to "keep up."  Those models are not a must have to play Warmachine or Hordes.  You can have a perfectly fine and fun game without the Battle Engines.  I play Warmachine on occasion when I get a chance to play it and I have no plans to purchase one of the Battle Engines.  Seeing as how the BE rules are and the fact that I play Cygnar and have 3 Hunter warjacks they dont scare me one bit.

I actually dropped the game when they were moving to MKII. I was not so worried about keeping up with the jones, as I was with the power creep. And the 3 hunters are a small example of the power creep. Base book Cygnar light Jacks: Charger, Lancer, Sentinel - quality jack: Lancer due to arc node. Neither of the other two were great back then. Cygnar's jack power was in its heavies: Ironclad and Defender. Book2: Escalation (and they meant it) - Cygnar gets a really good light jack: Hunter, it costs just a little bit more, but suddenly its a great Heavy Jack killer (and heavy infantry too) that is very battlefield flexible. And Cygnar gets the Centurion, epic win for a heavy jack. Can't be charged or slammed, and has a killer melee weapon for only 10 points more than the far less effective Ironclad (now). Each book essentially increased the baseline of what was quality. Sure that sells, but after Apotheosis it got stale.

Now this was from Mk.I. Maybe Mk.2 is better... but I was long gone before they were done beta-testing Mk.II.

At least those huge 80mm based models are in resin... but at $85.00.

And I'll give PP its dues, their minis are gorgeous for the most part. I fault no one for buying, playing, and enjoying the games they make. It's just like I fault no one for buying ForgeWorld models (you want to pay £450, power to you... but I have bills). 

And now, I'm really off topic. Apologies... I'll be going now.
 

Cergorach

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They basicly said that once the metals of all mini's sell out we will start seeing the resins, produced with the exact same molds.  So 0 change in the looks.
They are actually pulling all the metals from the GW shops, everything will get replaced by either plastic or resin, the price increases on some are insane.

HaplessWithDice

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They are actually pulling all the metals from the GW shops, everything will get replaced by either plastic or resin, the price increases on some are insane.
Interesting I was just on their site, and they said they are using their own resin formula which is Durable, light, and takes on sharper detail.  Well maybe not an exact quote but pretty close  Interesting.  Plus they are calling this "Fine Cast" and saying it will bring in a new era of the modeling end of the hobby because conversions will be much easier, pinnning will almost become a thing of the past, because of this resin.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Yeah, and I bet it whitens laundry, too.
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ItsTehPope

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Interesting I was just on their site, and they said they are using their own resin formula which is Durable, light, and takes on sharper detail.  Well maybe not an exact quote but pretty close  Interesting.  Plus they are calling this "Fine Cast" and saying it will bring in a new era of the modeling end of the hobby because conversions will be much easier, pinnning will almost become a thing of the past, because of this resin.

I wonder if they used the same PR guy my company uses.
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Paul

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Yeah, and I bet it whitens laundry, too.

Sweet.

Say, do you think I might gain superpowers if I ate some? I don't have to be all spiderman or nothing, I'll settle for an upgrade to batman.

Paul
The solution is just ignore Paul.

HaplessWithDice

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Well apparently they will be hitting shelves this Saturday so we can go see it ourselves.  I will say this let's reserve judgement till we see it ourselves.  My bet is if it picks up the finer details from the mold as well as they claim, my bet is it also mold lines like no other.  Though the fact that it would flow into the mold and pick up detail cleaner would be a logical result of a lighter weight material, so there is some logic to it.

Reducibility is also logical, there is after all more than one form of Resin in the world so this makes sense.  It should have about the same durability as plastic.  Now I admit their article did make this stuff seem like the Messiah of the war-gaming miniature world but I'm willing to stay optimistic.  If it's as good as they say other companies may begin to research it, and develop their own resins.

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I would be more concerned about whether I can put resin into my stripping agent.  Can it survive what I use to strip off paint and old glue?

F T C

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Reducibility is also logical, there is after all more than one form of Resin in the world so this makes sense.  It should have about the same durability as plastic.  Now I admit their article did make this stuff seem like the Messiah of the war-gaming miniature world but I'm willing to stay optimistic.  If it's as good as they say other companies may begin to research it, and develop their own resins.

Don't remember if it was said yet or not--don't want to reread 7 pages--but it should also be lighter than metal--at least I would think--and that should help with shipping cost, which was one of gw's main basis for their insane prices.
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I would be more concerned about whether I can put resin into my stripping agent.  Can it survive what I use to strip off paint and old glue?

Depend on what you use... I use a purple stripper/cleaner found in the auto section of Wally world and have stripped resin before with no issues.
There would be less humans if they were tastier....

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Interesting I was just on their site, and they said they are using their own resin formula which is Durable, light, and takes on sharper detail.  Well maybe not an exact quote but pretty close  Interesting.  Plus they are calling this "Fine Cast" and saying it will bring in a new era of the modeling end of the hobby because conversions will be much easier, pinnning will almost become a thing of the past, because of this resin.

  This fine cast resin sounds interesting. I would like to point that Forge World uses almost the same resin that FoW and it has the same problems. For those who don't know about it, Forge World is the line of "fine detail" miniatures from GW done with resin. They are expensive (some are very expensive) and cool. I don't think that GW would use a "new-uber resin" in mass production without testing it before in Forge World. This hasn't happened so I'm afraid that I have to cast shadows over the fine cast resin.

  Real fine cast resin exists. Yes. Maybe you have used it before. Dentists use it to make molds for your mouth. It is non-toxic, it has full detail, but it takes days to cure and it is very expensive. VERY expensive.
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HikageMaru

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I knew a guy who liked to lick the tip of his paintbrush t a point before he dipped it in paint.  One night he got real sick, and when his wife threatened him with divorce if he didn't go, agreed to go to the ER.  Turns out he had lead poising from--guess what--painting his miniatures.  After it was all over he had a good laugh, but I don't think his wife ever did.

I have a lot of lead miniatures and I lick my paintbrush---but my minis are already primed by that point.  I think the danger would be from him huffing lead dust as he was filing down his mold lines.  I am paranoid about my kids being near where I work on my lead minis and I seal the area off like it was Fukushima or something.  Then again, I remember when I was a kid I used to bite down on my lead fishing weights with my teeth.  I guess that explains a few things....

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Going to plastic with a core Mech/vehicle line could be very profitable for CGL, but it would depend on how they would package such a product, making a single mold for each Mech would not be a smart idea. Anything that isn't mainstream/popular could be done in low volume in resin.

Agreed.
The fixed costs for making plastic miniatures is significant. Though it would be less cost effective to make pewters for high-volume miniatures (See: 40K space marines), it would be silly to use the same process for something that might sell two or three copies any given year (See: Cossack 'mech).

However, I'd agree that there are some designs which seem like they'd sell well enough that it's worth making them in plastic, namely the heavies and assault omnimechs from 3050, as well as the Storm Crow. They sell really well, rarely showing up at an LGS for more than a few days at a time before someone buys them up. Some of the new Phoenix miniatures might do well to be made in plastic. I could imagine anything above 50 tons doing quite well.

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Sweet.

Say, do you think I might gain superpowers if I ate some? I don't have to be all spiderman or nothing, I'll settle for an upgrade to batman.

Paul

Batman's superpower is money, the best superpower of all.

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Batman's superpower is money, the best superpower of all.

Damn, so when I eat this stuff, I become rich? AWESOME! Buying that would be like, the best investment, EVER! I'd literally be pooping treasure or something! Mindblowing!

Paul
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Batman's superpower is money, the best superpower of all.

I take it you're a fan of PS238?
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Cergorach

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Quote
What if anything will the discontinuation of metal minis from GW mean for IWM?

The code name for the GW resin/plastic is 'Bubbles' and the direct effect it's having that a lot of folks are not buying Finecast due to the horror stories:
http://s1106.photobucket.com/albums/h376/mechanicalhorizon/

The quality is really hit or miss with the Finecast, but 'Bubbles' do seem to be a really big problem.

I find it strange, I don't hear of those problems with the Privateer Press or Mantic Games resin/plastic miniatures...

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Intersting.  Given the nature of GW and their WYSiWYG game rules (Not found in battletech) one would suspect that they would chose something where conversion would be easier. 
Why would they want you to convert it when they can sell you the exact mini when they make it that is.

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Then they have to make even more different mini molds which is expensive.

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Why would they want you to convert it when they can sell you the exact mini when they make it that is.

Because quite simply the game has grown beyond their ability to make models for every possible combination.  GW knows this and for well over a decade has printed in their army books/codexes that certain units were "mod only". 

Besides that, their money-grubbing rep aside, GW has always heavily encouraged modding.  In fact they ran an incredibly complex/exepnsive to maintain bits and pieces sales system for the modders until thier finances were in too poor a shape to justify it anymore, and as they've started to pull out of their death spiral, they've been working to bring back that system, albeit on a far smaller, more economical to operate scale.

-Jackmc


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Anyone have any idea what kind of resin "resin/plastic" miniatures use?

I'm thinking a high-impact polystyrene resin.

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Because quite simply the game has grown beyond their ability to make models for every possible combination.  GW knows this and for well over a decade has printed in their army books/codexes that certain units were "mod only". 

Besides that, their money-grubbing rep aside, GW has always heavily encouraged modding.  In fact they ran an incredibly complex/exepnsive to maintain bits and pieces sales system for the modders until thier finances were in too poor a shape to justify it anymore, and as they've started to pull out of their death spiral, they've been working to bring back that system, albeit on a far smaller, more economical to operate scale.

-Jackmc

You obviously have not been with GW for awhile.

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GW only went Finecast on their more difficult metal models (for now).  The thing is that  I like what they did it makes assembly easier, but at a high cost(in pocket for players and them) remember they redid half of their metal fig line in under 3 months had to rework the molds give them the detail, make the packaging, advertise, pay their workers OT, materials, etc. and that cost money.  the same would happen to IWM if they did the same thing.  as i mentioned above these new Finecast figs 3 advantages 1) no pinning, 2) easier clean up on the mini 3) detail (its a bit better on some figs).  Disadvantages: current price which is expected to lower when all pewter figs are released in Fine cast (not gonna happen cause their quarterly  "oh plastic is very rare we are raising our prices" excuse will make them keep the current rates)
« Last Edit: 26 June 2011, 09:30:22 by JWard »

Star Col. Josh Ward 2nd Wolf Rangers (Wolf Clan Watch)

keisukekun

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GW only went Finecast on their more difficult metal models (for now).  The thing is that  I like what they did it makes assembly easier, but at a high cost(in pocket for players and them) remember they redid half of their metal fig line in under 3 months had to rework the molds give them the detail, make the packaging, advertise, pay their workers OT, materials, etc. and that cost money.  the same would happen to IWM if they did the same thing.  as i mentioned above these new Finecast figs 3 advantages 1) no pinning, 2) easier clean up on the mini 3) detail (its a bit better on some figs).  Disadvantages: current price which is expected to lower when all pewter figs are released in Fine cast (not gonna happen cause their quarterly  "oh plastic is very rare we are raising our prices" excuse will make them keep the current rates)

Well technically its resin which is a much higher quality type of plastic.  I think it would be cool if a plastic line was released.  Anyone know who made the premium minis in teh new box set?  An expanded line of those would be welcome, maybe all teh figs in teh box set and 10 or 20 more.  Personally i like working with teh metal more than plastic but some cheaper high quality plastic figs would be nice to fill out an army

Psycho

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some cheaper high quality plastic figs

Oxymoron.

You want cheap, you lose quality. You want quality, you're going to have to pay for it.

keisukekun

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Oxymoron.

You want cheap, you lose quality. You want quality, you're going to have to pay for it.

The Premium figs for sale on battlecorps are pretty high quality and at 17.95 for two that is pretty cheap compared to IWM http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27_218&products_id=2338

I read in a QA catalyst plans to a line of these high quality plastic mini (just teh popular units) to give new players a cheaper way to get statrted.