Composition of the Defenders of Andurien

[Arkansas Warrior]

The various sources on the Defenders of Andurien, always seem to make much of their use of combined arms.  At first, I thought this meant they were combined-arms regiments that integrated units at a comparatively low level, like the Ceti Hussars, St. Ives Janissaries, Eridani Light Horse, ComGuard, etc., but the more I read the more it seems they were mech regiments with some nebulous support forces that they used more regularly and effectively than other Marik units.  The only detail on these forces I could find comes from the old Marik Sourcebook, which says the First Defenders had "a staggering 26 lances of Aerospace Fighters, artillery, and light and heavy tanks", but even this is imprecise in several ways.  Is the amount "staggering" compared to the other Defenders regiments, or compared to the FWLM in general?  When they say 26 lances of ASF, artillery, and tanks, does that mean 52 fighters (roughly an Aero Regiment) plus an indeterminate amount of artillery and tanks?  This seems logical in that arty and armor are organized in platoons, not lances.  But that early in BT history, and as inconsistent as FASA sometimes was, it seems like they could be using lance and platoon interchangeably, in which case we'r talking about roughly a mixed regiment of ASF, arty, and armor in support of the mech regiment.  If "staggering" is meant in comparison to the other Defenders units, what do they have?  A battlion?  Half a regiment?  Is there any further detail on the composition of the Defenders units?

[Cazaril]

The various sources on the Defenders of Andurien, always seem to make much of their use of combined arms.  At first, I thought this meant they were combined-arms regiments that integrated units at a comparatively low level, like the Ceti Hussars, St. Ives Janissaries, Eridani Light Horse, ComGuard, etc., but the more I read the more it seems they were mech regiments with some nebulous support forces that they used more regularly and effectively than other Marik units.  The only detail on these forces I could find comes from the old Marik Sourcebook, which says the First Defenders had "a staggering 26 lances of Aerospace Fighters, artillery, and light and heavy tanks", but even this is imprecise in several ways.  Is the amount "staggering" compared to the other Defenders regiments, or compared to the FWLM in general?  When they say 26 lances of ASF, artillery, and tanks, does that mean 52 fighters (roughly an Aero Regiment) plus an indeterminate amount of artillery and tanks?  This seems logical in that arty and armor are organized in platoons, not lances.  But that early in BT history, and as inconsistent as FASA sometimes was, it seems like they could be using lance and platoon interchangeably, in which case we'r talking about roughly a mixed regiment of ASF, arty, and armor in support of the mech regiment.  If "staggering" is meant in comparison to the other Defenders units, what do they have?  A battlion?  Half a regiment?  Is there any further detail on the composition of the Defenders units?

When the original House Marik book uses the word "staggering", I think this is a comparison to a typical Mech regiment that typically has 18 Aerospace fighters attached to it (House Marik : The Free Worlds League <1622> pg 80)... At almost 3 times the number, I'd consider that staggering.

As for the Defenders of Andurien being combined arms, the Field Manual: Free Worlds League <1699> pg 35. states;

"Among the newest forces of the League, the Free Worlds Legionnaires came into the existence following the war against Andurien in the 3030s. The long struggle almost destroyed the Defenders of Andurien; the few units that survived the conflict were disbanded. The ten-year war, however, did show Thomas Marik the advantages of integrated combined-arms forces, and he immediately put that lesson to good use."

This suggests that unlike the rest of the LCCC (which only combined the fore mentioned Aerospace units and "a full complement of support personnel" which included; techs, scouts, engineers, etc), the Defenders of used more of a combined arms unit structure. Add that to the information on pg 101 (House Marik : The Free Worlds League <1622>) about the tanks and artillery, and while you might not have a brigade, you should have some primitive form of it.

Caz

Edit: After rereading the information from the original Housebook, I think it is saying that there were 26 lance of support units total... Even though that is less impressive than 26 lances of just aerospace, it still makes a potent additional fighting force that other Marik units didn't have at the time.

[ajcbm]

The balkanized nature of the FWL means that the component States gets a lot of leeway in organizing their own troops. I think Andurien keeps multiple regiments of armor and infantry attached to their Mech Regiments. The size of these attachments depends on the availability at the time.

I believe these units are treated like a Davion RCT where companies or battalions of tanks/infantry are assigned to mech units instead of being organic from the start.

[Death by Lasers]

  From FM:WFL we know that Thomas Marik was inspired to fill out his military with Brigades after facing Anton Marik.  A brigade, for House Marik, is a mech regiment supported by 2-4 supporting regiments.  The typical Marik brigade from the book is 1 regiment mechs, 1 regiment armor, 2 regiments infantry (really 4: Marik infantry regiments have twice the infantry), and 1 wing Aerospace fighters.  My first guess is Anton's forces probably looked something like this, but I will have to brush up on Brush Wars to see if they say anything more specific.

[Archangel]

  From FM:WFL we know that Thomas Marik was inspired to fill out his military with Brigades after facing Anton Marik.  A brigade, for House Marik, is a mech regiment supported by 2-4 supporting regiments.  The typical Marik brigade from the book is 1 regiment mechs, 1 regiment armor, 2 regiments infantry (really 4: Marik infantry regiments have twice the infantry), and 1 wing Aerospace fighters.  My first guess is Anton's forces probably looked something like this, but I will have to brush up on Brush Wars to see if they say anything more specific.

You mean Andurien not Anton Marik correct?  Thomas Marik didn't enter the big picture until after Anton's death when Janos Marik fell ill and Thomas needed to step in temporarily (Note:  This was still the real Thomas Marik.  The fake Thomas Marik entered the picture after the bombing that killed Janos and injured the real Thomas Marik.). 

[Frabby]

Andurien was always noted for their strong aerospace industry (incidentally named Andurien Aerospace). Dame Catherine Humphreys was a noted aerospace fighter pilot before becoming a political figure.
They also manufacture 'Mechs on Shiro III (Hermes II is a named model) and also have domestic production of heavy tanks iirc. And they produced a significant share of the FWL's notoriously scarce PPCs, keeping most for themselves.

So yeah, it's easy to see how they would be in a position and mindset to augment their 'Mech forces with a healthy aerospace contingent and auxiliary vehicle forces.
I mean, the entire FWL is fairly big in combined arms warfare, especially heavy tanks; but the Duchy of Andurien apparently cranked it up to eleven.

[Death by Lasers]

You mean Andurien not Anton Marik correct?  Thomas Marik didn't enter the big picture until after Anton's death when Janos Marik fell ill and Thomas needed to step in temporarily (Note:  This was still the real Thomas Marik.  The fake Thomas Marik entered the picture after the bombing that killed Janos and injured the real Thomas Marik.).

  Dough!  Got the Andurien Revolt and Anton's Rebellion mixed up in my head.  Yeah, I mean the Andurien Revolt.

[Maelwys]

I was going to say that the simple answer would be to open up Brush Wars and read about the Defenders of Andurien in there, since obviously they'd be described in there.

Glad I actually checked. I'm not sure the Defenders are detailed at all in there, atleast not with a quick flip through. There might be something in the individual fight descriptions, but there doesn't seem to be something that details them overall, or provides a layout of their units.

Could be missing it however.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Yes, that's part of what prompted the thread.  I've been reading Brush Wars and there really isn't much description.  It makes numerous references to their using combined arms, but usually just refers to the mech regiments when discussing the battles.  The quantity and composition of their conventional elements isn't really discussed.

[ajcbm]

Yes, that's part of what prompted the thread.  I've been reading Brush Wars and there really isn't much description.  It makes numerous references to their using combined arms, but usually just refers to the mech regiments when discussing the battles.  The quantity and composition of their conventional elements isn't really discussed.

That probably means I was right and its a Mech Regiment with and LOT of support regiments attached. I remember reading Wolf's Dragoons having to fight a Planetary Militia of 7 Tank Regiments! Who has 7 armor regiments as militia? I think Andurien just attaches their tanks to the mechs.

[The Eagle]

Who has 7 armor regiments as militia?

The FWL.  Because Free Worlds militia units aren't actually -- in most cases, anyway -- militia.  Because of the way in which the League military was organized upon its founding, the armies of the various "small" provinces (ie, none of the 'Mech brigades we can read about) are full-time, standing forces and not traditional militia.  That's why you have Provincial conventional regiments attached to Federal 'Mech regiments on a semi-permanent basis as listed in Field Manual: Free Worlds League.  Accordingly, most of these formations remain at home station (prior to the Andurien War, this being accomplished thanks to the Home Defense Act) until or unless called upon by the Federal authorities to deploy elsewhere.

[bigmac]

The various sources on the Defenders of Andurien, always seem to make much of their use of combined arms.  The only detail on these forces I could find comes from the old Marik Sourcebook, which says the First Defenders had "a staggering 26 lances of Aerospace Fighters, artillery, and light and heavy tanks", but even this is imprecise in several ways.  Is the amount "staggering" compared to the other Defenders regiments, or compared to the FWLM in general? 

This question was answered many years ago in the Ask the Writers Forum on the old FASA website.  Unfortunately, the answer was never incorporated into Brush Wars.  All of the Defenders of Andurien regiments were organized the following fashion on paper during the timeframe of the Third Succession War and its aftermath until the disbanding of the Defenders.  The Legionnaires that replaced them followed the same organization:

1st (Battlemech) Battalion - 9 Lances (36 battlemechs)
2nd (Battlemech) Battalion - 9 Lances (36 battlemechs)
3rd (Battlemech) Battalion - 9 Lances (36 battlemechs)
4th (Heavy Armor) Squadron - 9 Platoons (45 heavy/assault tanks)
5th (Mobile Artillery) Squadron - 3 Batteries, Recon Company of 5 platoons (6 Long Toms or 8 Snipers per Battery, 30 light tanks/reconnaissance vehicles)
Aerospace Wing - 9 Lances (18 aerospace fighters)

Unofficially, all of the battalions, wings, and squadrons have command lances and platoons assigned.  In addition, the Defenders of Andurien regiment will also have a command company assigned so the regiments are considerably stronger than the paper strength.  The Defenders of Andurien were considerably stronger than the average Marik battlemech regiment.

[The Eagle]

The Defenders of Andurien were considerably stronger than the average Marik battlemech regiment.

And it needed to be that why to explain how they lasted five years against the CCAF and ten against the FWLM.

[Archangel]

The CCAF could have beaten the faster but Tsen Shang wanted an organized counter-attack PLUS the counter-attack was directed against both the Duchy of Andurien and their Canopian allies.  Finally he could only deploy so many CCAF units before he invited further attack by the Federated Suns.

Even before the invasion of the Confederation kicked off, the Duchess had likely increased recruitment given that they could no longer rely on aid from the rest of the FWL anymore.  These recruitment efforts went into overdrive once it became clear that the invasion had failed and she knew that the FWLM would be coming soon to reclaim their wayward province.  Her efforts against the FWL were aided by internal family fighting for the Captain-Generalcy. Dame Humphries concentrating most of her defensive forces on key worlds, 'Thomas Marik's' conservative invasion plan, the War of 3039 and other Lyran raids all contributed to extending the Andurien conflict.

Prior to the invasion of the Confederation, all Defenders of Andurien units were brought up to full strength, if not reinforced with additional forces.  Losses suffered during the invasion were quickly made up with new recruits.  While not as experienced as the fallen, they were no less fanatical.  They were further reinforced by assuming control of whatever units were deployed to their respectively assigned planet.  Again these units may have lacked combat experience but were fanatical in protecting their homes and their families.  Even when the parent unit may have been broken/forced to surrender, some sub-units would likely have continued fighting until brought to heel.

[The Eagle]

Finally he could only deploy so many CCAF units before he invited further attack by the Federated Suns.

Sorry, brother, but this just isn't so.  The CCAF itself was doing nothing to prevent "further attack by the Federated Suns."  The CCAF of 3030 was broken, both in numbers and in morale.  The reason the AFFS didn't continue its steamroller are the ComStar interdiction and the fact that the Davion economy was going into recession because almost the entirety of their merchant marine had been dragooned into military service.

Even before the invasion of the Confederation kicked off, the Duchess had likely increased recruitment given that they could no longer rely on aid from the rest of the FWL anymore.  These recruitment efforts went into overdrive once it became clear that the invasion had failed and she knew that the FWLM would be coming soon to reclaim their wayward province.  Her efforts against the FWL were aided by internal family fighting for the Captain-Generalcy. Dame Humphries concentrating most of her defensive forces on key worlds, 'Thomas Marik's' conservative invasion plan, the War of 3039 and other Lyran raids all contributed to extending the Andurien conflict.

Prior to the invasion of the Confederation, all Defenders of Andurien units were brought up to full strength, if not reinforced with additional forces.  Losses suffered during the invasion were quickly made up with new recruits.  While not as experienced as the fallen, they were no less fanatical.  They were further reinforced by assuming control of whatever units were deployed to their respectively assigned planet.  Again these units may have lacked combat experience but were fanatical in protecting their homes and their families.  Even when the parent unit may have been broken/forced to surrender, some sub-units would likely have continued fighting until brought to heel.

This is all conjecture and supposition.  Some of it is logical -- like the Defenders adopting "free" conventional units -- but your argument here has no leg to stand on.

[Frabby]

Sorry, brother, but this just isn't so.  The CCAF itself was doing nothing to prevent "further attack by the Federated Suns."  The CCAF of 3030 was broken, both in numbers and in morale.  The reason the AFFS didn't continue its steamroller are the ComStar interdiction and the fact that the Davion economy was going into recession because almost the entirety of their merchant marine had been dragooned into military service.

While this is technically correct, it is often overlooked that many elite Capellan commands were sidelined in the war, and not vanquished in the field. There was an (albeit small) core of pristine, dangerous and very angry CCAF remaining who had been out of position to fight the Davions but tore into the Anduriens and Canopians instead with a vengeance.

[Archangel]

Sorry, brother, but this just isn't so.  The CCAF itself was doing nothing to prevent "further attack by the Federated Suns."  The CCAF of 3030 was broken, both in numbers and in morale.  The reason the AFFS didn't continue its steamroller are the ComStar interdiction and the fact that the Davion economy was going into recession because almost the entirety of their merchant marine had been dragooned into military service.

First, you are starting a separate discussion as I never said anything about the AFFS restarting their invasion of the Confederation.  An 'attack' can range from a minor raid to a full-blown invasion.  Do you really believe that if they had deployed ALL remaining CCAF units against the Anduriens and Canopians that the AFFS launch a single raid against an undefended Sian or Capella? Do you believe Romano Liao would allow the Red Lancers to be deployed against the invaders especially after the Kathil Uhlans' raid?

Second, you need to reread the 'Wishful Thinking' (Hist:BW, p51): "Instead they [Dame Humphreys and the Magestrix] found a people who felt dishonored and ashamed of what had happened to their nation but who were determined it would not happen again.... the eleven-month cessation in hostilities allowed dismay and fear to turn into anger and determination."  This is further reinforced in HB: House House Liao (p47).

Third, few of the CCAF units they in the initial invasion had participated in the 4SW including such as House Dai Da Chi, House Kamata and Kincade's Rangers and the Big Mac which had suffered heavy casualties during the 4SW had been on extended leave after the end of that conflict and played a key role in the Capellan counter-attack.

This is all conjecture and supposition.  Some of it is logical -- like the Defenders adopting "free" conventional units -- but your argument here has no leg to stand on.

Uh quite a bit of what I say is actually stated in Brush Wars including internal conflicts within the Marik family (aka the fight for the Captain-Generalcy), the War of 3039, other efforts by the Lyrans and Davions to extend the conflict, the fake Thomas Marik's conservative invasion strategy, Dame Humphries concentrating her limited forces to key worlds instead of trying to defend each and every world and the Defenders being rebuilt with new recruits, volunteers.  While some parts are logical deductions, the foundation of the arguments are all supported.

[The Eagle]

First, that's your fault for using such a nebulous term as "attack," and I certainly never even intimated that the CCAF should have massively redeployed to face the Andurien/Canopian invasion.  My point was that the CCAF in 3030 couldn't have stopped the AFFS or the FWLM if either of them had launched a full-scale, concentrated assault.  Even if they did have some fresh units, it was a numbers game; reference Brush Wars, pg 67: "In almost all cases [of wargames playing out an FWLM invasion of the CapCon circa 3035] the CapCon died messily..."

Second, the CCAF had indeed learned a few lessons from the 4th War (specifically, the need to preserve combat power rather than territory), and they were certainly determined not to let themselves be embarrassed again.  But as Morpheus once said, there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.  Facing a numerically weaker opponent (ie, Andurien and Canopus) and giving them a sound thrashing is what ultimately rebuilt the CCAF's self-esteem.  If the AFFS, for example, had come knocking en masse again, the CCAF might have put up a better show at first but the house of cards likely would have collapsed again in short order.

Third, I'm well aware of these facts but again, you're focusing on individual formations instead of the mass of enemy commands available for operations.  The Warrior Houses are single battalions; if faced with a renewed invasion by an actual Successor State, they'd have been putting battalions into the field to face down entire brigades and RCTs.  Even elite-rated troops will fail against massed regulars due to the process of attrition (see: Operation BARBAROSSA).

[Archangel]

First, that's your fault for using such a nebulous term as "attack," and I certainly never even intimated that the CCAF should have massively redeployed to face the Andurien/Canopian invasion.  My point was that the CCAF in 3030 couldn't have stopped the AFFS or the FWLM if either of them had launched a full-scale, concentrated assault.  Even if they did have some fresh units, it was a numbers game; reference Brush Wars, pg 67: "In almost all cases [of wargames playing out an FWLM invasion of the CapCon circa 3035] the CapCon died messily..."

And my point was that the Defenders of Andurien being stronger than the average Marik BattleMech regiment wasn't the only reason the Andurien Wars lasted as long as they did.  Once the CCAF started their counter-attack, the Defenders were quickly forced to withdraw from Confed space.  My use of the term was intentional to cover the wide range of possibilities.

The one minor point that you seem to be obsessing about (your second and third points seem to be completely focused on that minor point) was me merely pointing out that if the CCAF move more units than they did, the Defenders would have been forced to retreat even faster but moving certain units such as the Red Lancers would have further highlighted the Confederation's weakness.

[Note: After the Confederation was invaded, Hanse Davion did draft invasion plans to finish off the Confederation and was in fact in the process of moving his forces into position to invade but was persuaded by Candace Liao (who threatened to go to war with the FedSuns), his wife and other advisors to abandon his plans.  ComStar's only part in stopping him was conveying messages to and from New Avalon(FM:CC, p20-21).  But since this tangent about a possible AFFS invasion of the CC belongs in its own separate thread, I will be dropping out of this portion of the discussion.]