Author Topic: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?  (Read 9194 times)

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8389
OK it's said that in BT most merc outfits fail, and I believe that's fairly early on in their careers when in reality their just a bunch of guys with 'Mechs calling themselves mercs. Now at this point the 'Mechs will be owned by the guys piloting them as opposed to the company itself, now this is important, because when whatever happens that causes the company to fail it's likely that several of the 'Mechs are destroyed, which leaves their pilots Disspossed or they don't leave their heir a 'Mech.

Well sooner or later you have to wonder where are they all coming from? 100 MechWarrior families a year sounds like a reasonable amount, so sooner or later the supply of 'Mechs for such units has to dry up.


Daemion

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5796
  • The Future of BattleTech
    • Never Tales and Other Daydreams
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #2 on: 16 December 2017, 14:37:07 »
I kinda wonder if a lot of them aren't coming from retired vassal retinues and such.  You have guys from a unit that served together, and when term is up, they decide to keep going as a unit, but under a different name.

There could be ulterior goals for them not simply retiring and going home, like revenge for some slight in a recent action against another force. (Raid gets ugly, and the guys on one side have tracked down the attackers.)  Or, it could be there's no home to go back to. (Count Dogoodar lost his holdings, and the new guy is a Jackass.)  It's safe to bet that most of the mercs are ex-military in some fashion, having served with a house, under someone somewhere up or down the ladder of nobility.

That's the fresh faces.  There are probably plenty that have been recycled from other failed commands.

It's easy to surmise the latter based on the notion that a lot of start-ups are merely mishandled.  Mech pilot casualties, if the game is anything to go by, are actually rather infrequent, even when you string out the battles to a high quantity.  Mechs are usually disabled far earlier through limb damage or coring, than by head-shot.  Even 'Flopping Dragon' syndrome will leave the pilot unconscious before he has a chance to kill himself from falling damage.

That's how I see the major sources playing out. There is room for oodles of minor exceptions, and that's what makes origin stories kinda fun.


It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

I helped make a game! ^_^  - Forge Of War: Tactics

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #3 on: 16 December 2017, 15:18:13 »
I always envisioned the pool of mechs and mechwarriors as being larger (even MUCH larger) than the combined House Armies.  If it weren't so, how could it have been possible for organized crime lords to have been able to put together a dozen regiments worth of battlmechs?

If you do subscribe to the notion then not every mech built is necessarily earmarked for a House Army and that smaller investors like arms dealers can end up with brand-newly manufactured mechs in addition to the secondary and tertiary trade between House Army cast-offs being available.

Replacement mechs isn't a problem, in my mind.  Which leaves finding pilots.
In the early days of BattleTech, the tagline was "Life is cheap, BattleMechs aren't".  If you were fortunate enough to have more mechs than pilots, all you'd have to do is holler out loud "Who wants to be a MechWarrior!?!" and you'll be swamped with applicants.  All you have to do, worst case scenario, is choose whoever's the least unqualified.

Yes, around 1990 the "Life is Cheap" era ended and being dispossessed was no longer a fate worse than death, since new mechs are flooding into service.  You don't have to be a scion of a Mechwarrior Family anymore to be a mechwarrior anymore; all it takes now is graduating some training academy.  If you're the son of a moisture farmer on some desert hellhole and got away from that life and became a MechWarrior for a Great House Army, odds are slim you own your mech.  Once you make the decision to "go pro" and become a Merc, odds are slim you get to take your House Army-owned mech with you.  In this era not only are mechs more easily obtained, so are actual trained pilots.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8389
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #4 on: 16 December 2017, 21:12:22 »
I kinda wonder if a lot of them aren't coming from retired vassal retinues and such.  You have guys from a unit that served together, and when term is up, they decide to keep going as a unit, but under a different name.
I don't think that kind of position comes with a 'Mech when you retire.

That's the fresh faces.  There are probably plenty that have been recycled from other failed commands.
Those don't count for these purposes.

It's easy to surmise the latter based on the notion that a lot of start-ups are merely mishandled.
That could well explain things, a unit that failed in such a manner wouldn't have anyone losing their 'Mech.

'Mech pilot casualties, if the game is anything to go by, are actually rather infrequent, even when you string out the battles to a high quantity.  Mechs are usually disabled far earlier through limb damage or coring, than by head-shot.  Even 'Flopping Dragon' syndrome will leave the pilot unconscious before he has a chance to kill himself from falling damage.
This is more the 'Mech is destroyed then damaged, even majorly.

I always envisioned the pool of mechs and mechwarriors as being larger (even MUCH larger) than the combined House Armies.  If it weren't so, how could it have been possible for organized crime lords to have been able to put together a dozen regiments worth of battlmechs?
This makes too much sense, but you have to wonder why all these 'Mechs belong to crime syndicates.

If you do subscribe to the notion then not every mech built is necessarily earmarked for a House Army and that smaller investors like arms dealers can end up with brand-newly manufactured mechs in addition to the secondary and tertiary trade between House Army cast-offs being available.
I think it's safe to assume that this is the case, but even then it's likely highly regulated, at the very least manufacturers are going to want to be sure they aren't selling to pirates because if they do sooner or later said pirates are likely to show up looking for spare parts (There wouldn't be intermediates in the sale of this type of military hardware)

Replacement mechs isn't a problem, in my mind.  Which leaves finding pilots.
In the early days of BattleTech, the tagline was "Life is cheap, BattleMechs aren't".  If you were fortunate enough to have more mechs than pilots, all you'd have to do is holler out loud "Who wants to be a MechWarrior!?!" and you'll be swamped with applicants.  All you have to do, worst case scenario, is choose whoever's the least unqualified.
Internal disconnect aside that makes too much sense.

guardiandashi

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4826
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #5 on: 16 December 2017, 22:55:17 »
you have to look back to the European, and other nobility and feudal time model.

it wasn't a battletech thing but a novel by Gordon R Dickson (one of the dragon knight series novels) that really put it into perspective for me.

every "nobleman" is effectively on stage all the time, (when they are in public IE in the presence of at least one other person) and they act how they think a nobleman should act.

one of the things a lot of nobles are is generous especially to their vassals (followers) so if a nobleman comes into money there is a good chance that they will give a gift to their follower's so lets say you are a regular follower (say an armsman) and you do something they appreciate they will give you a "gift" that sort of corresponds to the service as a reward.
such as:
promotion to: senior armsman, squire, Sargent, etc.
gifts: money, gear, such as weapons or armor, tools of the trade, etc.

if the noble gave you a gift, in many cases that gift is now your property, and doesn't necessarily have to be turned in when you retire, it stays as your property, and if you pass away is handed down to your heirs.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8389
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #6 on: 17 December 2017, 00:11:28 »
Interesting thought, however I don't think that it would work in BT, for one thing the social structures that made such gift-giving near mandatory no longer exist and for another once LostTech sets in and 'Mechs start getting rare it's not going to be practical.

Dark Jackal

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 79
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #7 on: 17 December 2017, 01:18:35 »
I believe the majority of equipment made in BT lasts significantly longer than what we're used to. The technology level of the SW did not degrade lower than the AoW era so the same basic standards of production were maintained implying that old relics could still be maintained. The worst of the worst would look like a mish-mash of parts (i.e. Franken 'Mechs) being held on by duct tape and glue if it came to it.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8389
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #8 on: 17 December 2017, 03:20:16 »
Oh it does but that doesn't really apply here, sooner or later you take it into battle and it gets shot up and you don't get it repaired.

guardiandashi

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4826
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #9 on: 17 December 2017, 04:08:58 »
Interesting thought, however I don't think that it would work in BT, for one thing the social structures that made such gift-giving near mandatory no longer exist and for another once LostTech sets in and 'Mechs start getting rare it's not going to be practical.
except that it is explicitly stated in various places that it happens

I realize its an extreme case but:
look at the example of "main event" (aka the 1st black thorns novel)
the son of the leader on the planet they were sent to, resigned under a cloud (he quit rather than being courtmartialed) for selling house gear on the black market, and he managed to keep the mechs that constituted the unit the thorns ended up fighting before the clans.
Rhana Rose was GIVEN an advanced tech phoenix hawk, for being the valedictorian in her class (granted it was the school for the northwind highlanders but ....  )

I know there are other examples but those are the first that I remember offhand.

JadedFalcon

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 868
  • Wins at Battleteching
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #10 on: 17 December 2017, 16:36:32 »
I believe the majority of equipment made in BT lasts significantly longer than what we're used to. The technology level of the SW did not degrade lower than the AoW era so the same basic standards of production were maintained implying that old relics could still be maintained. The worst of the worst would look like a mish-mash of parts (i.e. Franken 'Mechs) being held on by duct tape and glue if it came to it.

Precisely. Given the large numbers of introtech mechs in use into the early Republic era, I suspect there's a massive market for used and fixer-upper mechs. This market grows as house armies discard their old mechs or with non-domestic mechs they no longer wish to support. The industry would certainly date back to the 3rd SW, if not earlier. This also creates a secondary market for scavenging battlefields for usable mech components in addition to lostech and star league caches.

Acquiring mechs through mutinies and desertions is not unheard of. Hansen's Roughriders, are an example, along with all those SLDF units after the Amaris war.

Than there's debt financing! The FedSuns and Word of Blake have used it to retain or acquire contractors with a reliable history. I think there was a character in a Victor Milan short story that got their Locust that way.

8) http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58521.0;all

These two threads should probably be combined.

massey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2445
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #11 on: 17 December 2017, 20:02:41 »
Being a mechwarrior is one of the fastest ways to move up the socio-economic ladder.  You can go from dirty peasant to powerful noble within your lifetime if you can get a mech and do a good job.  That's not to say everybody does, but it's possible.

You'd probably have a whole lot of people who train to be a mechwarrior, even if they don't have a mech.  Think of it like being a professional athlete.  A bunch of inner city kids dream of being the next LeBron James, but most will never have that chance.  But there are guys who make it, and there are enough guys who make it to keep the high school sports programs fully stocked up.

I bet there are mech simulators on every planet.  And you have 13 year olds lining up with their quarters to sit down in the machine and practice blowing up a Rifleman.  Some of those kids are actually going to be good enough to Last Starfighter their way into a real mech school.  These guys are just hoping they manage to stumble into a battlemech.  Most of them won't.  Most of them will end up just another peasant on a nameless world.  But there's a percentage of them who are in the right place at the right time and manage to score a ride.

Some enemy mechwarrior thinks it's safe, so he stops and gets out of his Shadow Hawk to take a leak, and it just so happens that there's a sniper in the trees who used to be pretty good in the simulator, 20 years ago.  Now if he caps the guy and reports back to base, the local lord gets a shiny new mech.  But if he caps the guy and goes AWOL, now he's got a shot at the big time.  He gets a shiny new mech, and if there's a merc unit on planet, he's suddenly got a way off that rock.

You're probably not allowed to take your mech with you when you leave House service, not normally.  But I bet there are a lot of mechs that "fall off the back of trucks" or get "immobilized and captured by the enemy".  Now I doubt the opportunity to bolt with a mech comes up all the time, maybe only once or twice in a career (if ever).  But there's probably a sizeable percentage of people who are just waiting for that chance.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25631
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #12 on: 17 December 2017, 20:37:49 »
Aris Sung became a mechwarrior after successfully capturing a Stinger while he was a PBI.  The description made it sound like that was a standard reward.

Also, Battlemechs are fluffed as being absurdly easy to put back to work no matter what condition they're in: there's at least one description of some people taking a mech they found on their farm that had been sitting out, exposed to the elements for who knows how long, and they got it up and running by themselves.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8389
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #13 on: 18 December 2017, 01:45:22 »
Some enemy mechwarrior thinks it's safe, so he stops and gets out of his Shadow Hawk to take a leak, and it just so happens that there's a sniper in the trees who used to be pretty good in the simulator, 20 years ago.  Now if he caps the guy and reports back to base, the local lord gets a shiny new mech.  But if he caps the guy and goes AWOL, now he's got a shot at the big time.  He gets a shiny new mech, and if there's a merc unit on planet, he's suddenly got a way off that rock.
Not if you want to see your family ever again, and in the CC, DC and MH they likely pay for your actions with their lives.

You're probably not allowed to take your mech with you when you leave House service, not normally.  But I bet there are a lot of mechs that "fall off the back of trucks" or get "immobilized and captured by the enemy".  Now I doubt the opportunity to bolt with a mech comes up all the time, maybe only once or twice in a career (if ever).  But there's probably a sizeable percentage of people who are just waiting for that chance.
Not very many of them but.

Iracundus

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 514
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #14 on: 18 December 2017, 04:54:29 »
Aris Sung became a mechwarrior after successfully capturing a Stinger while he was a PBI.  The description made it sound like that was a standard reward.

Also, Battlemechs are fluffed as being absurdly easy to put back to work no matter what condition they're in: there's at least one description of some people taking a mech they found on their farm that had been sitting out, exposed to the elements for who knows how long, and they got it up and running by themselves.

The ongoing maintenance is the issue.  Whichever version of the maintenance rules you use, they are quite intensive in terms of necessarily technical support personnel or man-hours.  There is also the issue of generic spare part costs.

Maintenance staff requirements depend on what system you use.  In Interstellar Operations and Campaign Operations, it costs 0.1% per ton of Mech in generic spare parts at a cost of 10,000 C-bills per ton of spare parts.  That means a 100 ton Mech costs 1,000 C-bills per month.  It would also cost the salaries of 1 team(1 Tech and 6 AsTechs) to maintain totaling 3,200 C-bills per month.  So in total 4,200 C-bills per month and 7 technical support staff for a 100 ton Mech. 

In Field Manual Mercenaries Revised , it is a weekly maintenance cost of 75 C-bills flat per Mech.  However maintenance is tracked by effective man-hours, with a 100 ton Mech needing 40 + tonnage/5, or 60 man-hours per week of maintenance.  However under these rules, 1 Tech needs 1 AsTech as assistant to perform at maximum efficiency, else they lose 15% productivity if working solo.  Together the 2 would generate 60 man-hours per week between them, just enough to maintain the 100 ton Mech, and their salaries would be 1,200 C-bills per month.  So under these rules, that Mech will cost 1,500 C-bills per month and 2 technical support staff.  Why this divergence?  Because newer rules track by Tech teams (composed of 1 Tech and 6 AsTechs) and 1 Mech needs 1 team, whereas the older rules used man-hours, and the number of man-hours produced depended on the skill level. 

The new rules effectively make the idea of the lone knight-errant Mechwarrior on the Periphery virtually impossible as by the new rules the Mechwarrior could count at best as 1 Tech (and just AsTech under combat), meaning there is not a full team of technical support making it necessary to roll for breakdown every month (with a +1 modifier for every month after the 1st).  Each failed roll resulting in 1d6-3 critical hits.  That could quickly render the Mech combat ineffective.

So the lone lucky person "acquiring" a Mech would need partners in crime or be able to quickly get to a place where they could hire tech support.

Nuclear-Fridge

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #15 on: 18 December 2017, 07:39:52 »
"Not being allowed to take your 'Mech with you..."  ??? That all depends. Let's say it's just post-Clan Invasion, and you're a minor pilot in some House unit that's been cut to pieces by Clan Awesomeness. The only way you'd be allowed to walk with a 'Mech would be if it was a hopelessly outdated pile of junk that no-one can be bothered to upgrade, e.g. the Whitworth. Good luck on finding spare parts for it!

A more extreme example would be the Kuritan Charger, 3025 standard. "Go ahead. It's just taking up room in the hangar we could use for a brand-new Daikyu."

Now, of course, your wannabe 'Mech mercenary has themselves a ride, but it can be taken out by an electric golf cart. That would contribute to a lot of early-career "fails" in the mercenary trade...

skiltao

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1218
    • SkilTao's Gaming Blog
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #16 on: 18 December 2017, 14:11:03 »
how could it have been possible for organized crime lords to have been able to put together a dozen regiments worth of battlmechs?

I remember pushing that idea waaaay back, in a discussion between (I think) JediBear and Nightward.

But the Ghost Regiment 'Mechs were supplied in a special deal with ComStar, and the largest corporations (on the order of Synguard or Matabushi) only sometimes have lances for security. What "crime lords" do you see having more than a handful of (mercenary) 'Mechs?

for one thing the social structures that made such gift-giving near mandatory no longer exist

How so? BattleTech's interstellar empires are too big for the Throneworld to rule directly, especially as travel and communication get harder with the onset of lostech. Rewarding loyal vassals with stuff ties them closer to you (emotionally and logistically) and inspires the greater masses to strive loyally for those rewards.

in the CC, DC and MH they likely pay for your actions with their lives.

Why would the CC, DC or MH punish one of their own infantrymen for capturing an enemy 'Mech?

Let's say it's just post-Clan Invasion, and you're a minor pilot in some House unit that's been cut to pieces by Clan Awesomeness. The only way you'd be allowed to walk with a 'Mech would be if it was a hopelessly outdated pile of junk that no-one can be bothered to upgrade

Of course, if your unit's been cut to pieces, there's no one to stop you from just walking off with your stuff either.
Blog: currently working on BattleMech manufacturing rates. (Faction Intros project will resume eventually.)
History of BattleTech: Handy chart for returning players. (last updated end of 2012)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25631
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #17 on: 18 December 2017, 15:45:41 »
The ongoing maintenance is the issue.  Whichever version of the maintenance rules you use, they are quite intensive in terms of necessarily technical support personnel or man-hours.  There is also the issue of generic spare part costs.

Maintenance staff requirements depend on what system you use.  In Interstellar Operations and Campaign Operations, it costs 0.1% per ton of Mech in generic spare parts at a cost of 10,000 C-bills per ton of spare parts.  That means a 100 ton Mech costs 1,000 C-bills per month.  It would also cost the salaries of 1 team(1 Tech and 6 AsTechs) to maintain totaling 3,200 C-bills per month.  So in total 4,200 C-bills per month and 7 technical support staff for a 100 ton Mech. 

In Field Manual Mercenaries Revised , it is a weekly maintenance cost of 75 C-bills flat per Mech.  However maintenance is tracked by effective man-hours, with a 100 ton Mech needing 40 + tonnage/5, or 60 man-hours per week of maintenance.  However under these rules, 1 Tech needs 1 AsTech as assistant to perform at maximum efficiency, else they lose 15% productivity if working solo.  Together the 2 would generate 60 man-hours per week between them, just enough to maintain the 100 ton Mech, and their salaries would be 1,200 C-bills per month.  So under these rules, that Mech will cost 1,500 C-bills per month and 2 technical support staff.  Why this divergence?  Because newer rules track by Tech teams (composed of 1 Tech and 6 AsTechs) and 1 Mech needs 1 team, whereas the older rules used man-hours, and the number of man-hours produced depended on the skill level. 

The new rules effectively make the idea of the lone knight-errant Mechwarrior on the Periphery virtually impossible as by the new rules the Mechwarrior could count at best as 1 Tech (and just AsTech under combat), meaning there is not a full team of technical support making it necessary to roll for breakdown every month (with a +1 modifier for every month after the 1st).  Each failed roll resulting in 1d6-3 critical hits.  That could quickly render the Mech combat ineffective.

So the lone lucky person "acquiring" a Mech would need partners in crime or be able to quickly get to a place where they could hire tech support.

I think that what you're describing is a case of the rules being put in to provide a meaningful penalty on players rather than an attempt to accurately mirror the in-universe depictions.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8389
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #18 on: 19 December 2017, 00:38:28 »
How so? BattleTech's interstellar empires are too big for the Throneworld to rule directly, especially as travel and communication get harder with the onset of lostech. Rewarding loyal vassals with stuff ties them closer to you (emotionally and logistically) and inspires the greater masses to strive loyally for those rewards.
That and mandatory gift giving are two very different things

Why would the CC, DC or MH punish one of their own infantrymen for capturing an enemy 'Mech?
It's not for capturing the 'Mech, it's for running off with it.

skiltao

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1218
    • SkilTao's Gaming Blog
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #19 on: 19 December 2017, 11:11:46 »
That and mandatory gift giving are two very different things

How so?

Quote
It's not for capturing the 'Mech, it's for running off with it.

The infantry guy has prize rights to the 'Mech, and might be happy enough to not desert.
Blog: currently working on BattleMech manufacturing rates. (Faction Intros project will resume eventually.)
History of BattleTech: Handy chart for returning players. (last updated end of 2012)

Kovax

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2421
  • Taking over the Universe one mapsheet at a time
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #20 on: 19 December 2017, 11:44:50 »
The infantry guy has prize rights to the 'Mech, and might be happy enough to not desert.
Depending on the laws of his faction, he might own the 'Mech outright or be rewarded with a month's salary and a cheap medal for its capture.  That's clearly enough of a range to make the difference between continuing his military career on a different track (or selling it to the House at a steep discount and still living well for the rest of his life) and going AWOL with the captured 'Mech, at least if there's someplace safe he can run to with high odds of getting there alive.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8389
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #21 on: 19 December 2017, 14:36:08 »
How so?
They just are.

The infantry guy has prize rights to the 'Mech, and might be happy enough to not desert.
Prize rights historically went to everyone withing view. In the case of our sniper it can easily be argued that everyone in the area contributed to keeping the 'Mech in the fight long enough that the MW couldn't take a leak in a secure area thus enabling the capture.

massey

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2445
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #22 on: 19 December 2017, 17:39:28 »
Not if you want to see your family ever again, and in the CC, DC and MH they likely pay for your actions with their lives.

Nah.  Even assuming that those governments would do something like that (and I don't think it's a given), it's something our sniper is going to know and account for.

Your argument is the sniper knows not to run off because he knows what they'll do to his family.  So let's say that's the policy, and obviously our sniper knows about it (the policy doesn't do any good if nobody knows about it).  The problem for our oppressive governments is that it's a policy that is trivially easy to get around.

In our scenario, a lone infantryman catches an enemy mechwarrior outside of his mech, guns him down, and rides off into the sunset.  It is not difficult at all to add an extra step in there:  Place dead mechwarrior in your sniper position, blast with medium laser until well done.  As far as the Great House is concerned, their sniper died a hero's death in service to the state.  They find a charred body and some half-melted dog tags.  Looks like he's dead.

Do you think they launch formal investigations into every random joe infantryman who got killed by an enemy mech?  No.  Why would they suspect that it wasn't really him?  What makes them think that this time he actually stole the mech instead of getting killed by it?  Why would they think that?

skiltao

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1218
    • SkilTao's Gaming Blog
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #23 on: 20 December 2017, 01:59:25 »
it can easily be argued that everyone in the area contributed to keeping the 'Mech in the fight long enough that the MW couldn't take a leak in a secure area thus enabling the capture.

You could just as well argue that the smell of grandma's apple pie baking on the windowsill is what made him feel the area was secure enough to take a leak. Where's the peasant grandma's share of the prize rights?
Blog: currently working on BattleMech manufacturing rates. (Faction Intros project will resume eventually.)
History of BattleTech: Handy chart for returning players. (last updated end of 2012)

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #24 on: 20 December 2017, 02:46:13 »
I don't recall anywhere in the fiction or in the fluff that a "you keep what you kill" policy is in effect on the individual scale. In fact more often than not we see that the units bargain hard for salvage rights.

There are many mentions in the TROs of Mechwarriors being given Mechs as an award for extraordinary services or feats. But it seems that these are gratuities rather than rights.

Prize rights historically went to everyone withing view. In the case of our sniper it can easily be argued that everyone in the area contributed to keeping the 'Mech in the fight long enough that the MW couldn't take a leak in a secure area thus enabling the capture.
Correction: Prize rights in the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic wars went to every ship within view.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8389
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #25 on: 20 December 2017, 03:16:40 »
You could just as well argue that the smell of grandma's apple pie baking on the windowsill is what made him feel the area was secure enough to take a leak. Where's the peasant grandma's share of the prize rights?
If grandma is in a position to make such a claim she should clearly be committed.

I don't recall anywhere in the fiction or in the fluff that a "you keep what you kill" policy is in effect on the individual scale. In fact more often than not we see that the units bargain hard for salvage rights.
Oh, good point

Correction: Prize rights in the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic wars went to every ship within view.
Well yeah, but this is clearly based off that idea.

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #26 on: 20 December 2017, 04:08:03 »
Being a mechwarrior is one of the fastest ways to move up the socio-economic ladder.  You can go from dirty peasant to powerful noble within your lifetime if you can get a mech and do a good job.  That's not to say everybody does, but it's possible.
yup
Quote
I bet there are mech simulators on every planet.  And you have 13 year olds lining up with their quarters to sit down in the machine and practice blowing up a Rifleman.  Some of those kids are actually going to be good enough to Last Starfighter their way into a real mech school.  These guys are just hoping they manage to stumble into a battlemech.  Most of them won't.  Most of them will end up just another peasant on a nameless world.  But there's a percentage of them who are in the right place at the right time and manage to score a ride.
Last Starfighter game simulators, perhaps. Real training-standard simulators with neurohelmets, unlikely. Doesn't fit the overall crapsack-world aesthetic of Btech. But other than that, agreed.

The Draconis Combine, of all people, has the Osaka Proving Grounds where anybody can walk in and try their luck at military-grade simulators. Granted, if you fail an ISF background check - which a yak is unlikely to pass - you're still not going to be recruited. But as you say... it IS a great chance for upward social mobility, and in the 2nd least likely Successor State too!
Oh, good point
Well yeah, but this is clearly based off that idea.
But why?

But the Ghost Regiment 'Mechs were supplied in a special deal with ComStar, and the largest corporations (on the order of Synguard or Matabushi) only sometimes have lances for security. What "crime lords" do you see having more than a handful of (mercenary) 'Mechs?
Hachiman Taro :D okay that's an outlier, and in fact the novel showed exactly what happens when a vassal grows too powerful for the overlord's liking

Theodore tapped the yakuza for manpower and money. There were many Mech-qualifiable individuals who weren't previously allowed into the DCMS ranks, and the yak also recruited their people for armour, infantry, support personnel, etc. And we can infer that the money was not just for buying new Mechs, but also for all the other support costs that goes into running proper regiments.

The DCMS (and perhaps other Successor States) could have lots of Mech chasses just as the US has a boneyard full of older aircraft. What they probably lack is people and funding to pilot and properly support them with tanks, infantry, techs,
 logistics, etc.


SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8389
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #27 on: 20 December 2017, 04:45:22 »
But why?
I'm not getting your point here.


The DCMS (and perhaps other Successor States) could have lots of Mech chasses just as the US has a boneyard full of older aircraft. What they probably lack is people and funding to pilot and properly support them with tanks, infantry, techs, logistics, etc.


No, just NO! It's well established that there is a shortage of 'Mechs and this would violate that.

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #28 on: 20 December 2017, 05:12:23 »
I'm not getting your point here.

No, just NO! It's well established that there is a shortage of 'Mechs and this would violate that.
Why should the Napoleonic Wars-era Royal Navy's prize ruling, in particular, be applicable to Battletech? There is no evidence supporting it and plenty against.

Mechs are relatively rare, in the sense that each Successor State doesn't have more than around 12,000 in-service Mechs across about 400 worlds and  but there are confirmed hidden Mech stockpiles in BT - Comstar, the Fed Suns, Word of Blake and the Cap Con in the Dark Age era are four undisputable examples. Maybe they are "doomsday scenario" stockpiles - and indeed we could have seen each Successor State dip heavily into them during the Jihad, which explains why post-Jihad they took a long time to rearm and replenish.

So 1) its not unfeasible to imagine each Successor State having around 500-600 somewhat obsolete Mechs (only about 5% of total) tucked away somewhere for a rainy flooding day, and 2) its probable that the Draconis Combine dipped into its stockpile to form the Ghost Regiments.

By the way, the DCMS Night Stalkers, AFFS Chisholm's Raiders and FWL Romanov's Crusaders are better examples of units formed with privately-owned Mechs.

skiltao

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1218
    • SkilTao's Gaming Blog
Re: Where Do All The MechWarriors That Start/Join Mercs Come From?
« Reply #29 on: 20 December 2017, 11:07:01 »
The DCMS (and perhaps other Successor States) could have lots of Mech chasses just as the US has a boneyard full of older aircraft. What they probably lack is people and funding to pilot and properly support them with tanks, infantry, techs,
 logistics, etc.

I agree that idea is reasonable for the Star League, and the Pax Republica, but I have to agree with SCC that it's not congruent with the scavenger / meat-grinder periods in between.

By the way, the DCMS Night Stalkers, AFFS Chisholm's Raiders and FWL Romanov's Crusaders are better examples of units formed with privately-owned Mechs.

Y'know, given that the Night Stalkers were funded by rich members of the business world, and that Chisholm's Raiders are described as "rickety," and that both are light units which were formed from used 'Mechs, I think they're a fair sign of just how scarce 'Mechs are in the secondary market.

I don't recall anywhere in the fiction or in the fluff that a "you keep what you kill" policy is in effect on the individual scale. In fact more often than not we see that the units bargain hard for salvage rights.

It shows up in TR:3025. I'd expect it to show up in the Notable Warrior entries of later TROs too (though I don't know if it actually does). I've recently reread parts of the Warrior Trilogy, and I think I remember it also being mentioned offhand in dialogue there.

In any case, individual prize rights apply to how loot gets distributed within the unit. It's a separate issue from, and would occur after, accounting for whatever loot the unit as a whole is contractually obligated to pass on to other units.

If grandma is in a position to make such a claim she should clearly be committed.

Having multiple ships in sight could help intimidate an opposing ship into surrendering, or influence its maneuvering in a way which makes it easier to capture. If some MechWarrior tries to claim that they kept the enemy in the fight so long that enemy had to find somewhere safe to pee - which is to say, they contributed neither materially nor psychologically to the actual capture of the 'Mech - they should be committed right along with the grandma.

Edit: possibly you are misunderstanding the scenario. The MechWarrior isn't cracking his cockpit open in the middle of combat, he's gone off somewhere quiet away from the battle zone. "Safely away from the battle zone" *isn't* a crazy place to find grandmas. BattleMechs are fast and mobile; villages containing grandmas are not.
« Last Edit: 20 December 2017, 11:18:26 by skiltao »
Blog: currently working on BattleMech manufacturing rates. (Faction Intros project will resume eventually.)
History of BattleTech: Handy chart for returning players. (last updated end of 2012)