MotW: Sirocco

[garhkal]

Given the leg armour on the heavier quads and the fact that losing a sidetorso basically imobilizes it and legs rarely carry weapons (well, prominent exception right here), the partial cover boon strikes me as less powerful than commonly accepted, as far as I can judge common acceptance from this thread.
As many bonuses as a Quad mech might have, I think I still prefer a biped one unless there's a turret involved, looking purely at power and flexibility.

Exactly.  The loss of torso twisting, grabing/punching, ability to target into the rear/side flanks with one arms weaponry etc, are not all 'balanced' out by the bonuses they get..

[Iron Mongoose]

That was my point as well, not that any specific mech can beat a quad, but that even if we go all out and try to design the perfect Sirocco, can we make one that can out perform a high end Nightstar or Cerberus or Banshee?  The construction rules (mainly the lack of crit space) hamper quads, especially assault quads (I don't know if anyone ever ran out of crit space on a Tarantula without trying real hard, or using heavy FF armor maybe).  If quads were just a trade of torso twisting for side stepping and mule kicking, and the front legs still had 12 critical spaces in them (before actuators) then I think balance on quads would be closer, and we might say they would be over powered with a boost of some sort.  But, I think they are, today, under powered.  After all, how many really frightening quads are there?  Hellby mentioned the Thunder Stallion, which is scary because its loaded with Clan LRMs and you really can't go badly wrong there.  I do genuinely love the Sirocco and I think its a quality mech, but no one has ever gasped in horror when they saw I'd picked one (unless they were really hoping I'd take an Albatross, maybe).  I like the Tarantula, but its not meaningfully better than a Spider or Venom or similar.  Maybe the Stalking Spider?  Some of the PP Scorpions and Goliaths aren't terrible, but I don't call any of them great.  Where as there are 95 ton IS mechs and 85 ton Clan mechs that can freeze your blood at their very mention (well, you know what I mean).   

I don't propose to change the rules, now.  I think quads are perfectly usable (I once wrote a whole article on the topic, in which I concluded that quads have many excellent uses) and their limitations add a fun dimension to the game.  But, I think they're far from over powered, and I think that a house rule allowing some quads (perhaps as a design quirk) larger, or different, firing arcs then that could make for an interesting game that would still likely retain good balance (unless perhaps someone set out deliberately to really abuse it, perhaps, which is likely why the rules remain as they are and why I don't object to that).

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

If you want to compare bipeds vs quads, why not just see what happens if you replicate the Sirocco's loadout on a Hauptmann?  Same tonnage, same movement, same engine, same IS, same armor.

[JadeHellbringer]

If you want to compare bipeds vs quads, why not just see what happens if you replicate the Sirocco's loadout on a Hauptmann?  Same tonnage, same movement, same engine, same IS, same armor.

I don't have my books handy, but doing the head math that should be doable for at least the first two versions- not 100% sure what the rules are on IJJs on an Omni for the 6C. I'll give it a look tonight and see if it works out.

[Iron Mongoose]

Its not that.  Quads are more limited, after all.  The question is, how many of the best Hauptman variants can you replicate on a Sirocco?

The Hauptman, I'd guess, would only gain if you moved the rear mounted weapons to the arms (along side the front leg weapons) with the expectation that you could then fire them all either forwards or backwards.  Aside from that... depends how you try and fight it.  The quad would be better at range, since there'd be no need to twist and the extra armor and stability would help, while the biped would be better if the enemy was able to close (either due to speed or a lack of suitable escorts).  Probably a push.

[Arkansas Warrior]

You ought to be able to rebuild any Sirocco on a Hauptmann.  With, at minimum, 12 extra crits.  16 if you pull the arm actuators.  Now, you could leave those crits free, or you could use them to add light ferro or endo-composite (or even the regular versions if you pull actuators.  Now you have tons and crits free and can add more weapons, ammo, electronics, etc.

[sadlerbw]

I still think the best quads are fast lights. Typically, lights tend to blow up very quickly once they take a gyro or hip crit, or loose a leg. A quad does a better job of ignoring the effects of all those things and and still being able to run around for decent movement mods. I've found that seems to buy them at least an extra turn or two before they go boom, or have to run.

Lights don't usually have massive firepower unless they just have a pile of medium lasers, and even a quad has the cries to manage that. So, I don't think they loose out on firepower as badly on the light end. Plus, those leg slots are a great place to stick up to 8 jump jets, and fast jumping lights are already annoying. When blowing a leg off doesn't make them sit still, they are even more annoying. Plus the high movement helps mitigate the lack of torso twist.

So, for me anyway, I find the Tarantula to be more frightening than the Spider and Venom. In fact, if you took the Venom 9KA, I'm pretty sure you could build it as a quad, and I would gladly take that version over the biped. Quad turrets do help quite a bit on the heavier quads, but i still think 30-35 tons is the sweet spot for a quad.

[UnLimiTeD]

I think the niche, if any, that heavier quads could have had will be filled by tripods, eventually; You pay with heavier structure and the need of extra armour for a torso turret and better mobility.
Still, if one does have a turret, we should not discount the stability bonuses on an Assault mech that will be soaking fire. Them constantly toppling over is such a pain in the butt.
Once lost a Lance of Götterdämmerungs to that, so I certainly see the appeal of that. Though I wrote above I'd like to see a Sirocco with a compact Gyro, I'm not so sure how much it'd actually need one.
Maybe LFE and Hardened. Wasn't there a quad with hardened available to the FWL?

[Empyrus]

Maybe LFE and Hardened. Wasn't there a quad with hardened available to the FWL?

I don't think so? They got the Stalker II though, which kinda looks like half a quad. (Unfortunately, the Stalker II combines hardened armor with torso cockpit, and if quirks are used, no arms... massive amount of piloting penalties.)

[UnLimiTeD]

Well, that one would work as a Quad then. ;D 
Crits notwithstanding, of course.

[sadlerbw]

There is the Trebaruna TR-XH, which is in the tro 3145 ntnu section. It has hardened armor, a quad turret with an erppc, and also an improved heavy gauss rifle.

[Colt Ward]

Almost forgot, you also have the Great Turtle . . . which for some reason the wife thought would be a good mech for me- 'I read its a dick move to use with the hard armor and pulse thingies.  Plus I want to paint it as Blastoise.'

Compact gyro, torso cockpit and hardened armor- its the survivable standard.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's also got minimal firepower.

[Colt Ward]

Sure, its the rare exclusion of the 'Pick 2' rule that proves it.

[Scotty]

No it isn't, it just picked armor twice.

[UnLimiTeD]

Actually I tried the original against the Bot; suffice to say it actually managed to win against half again it's BV with nary a scratch. Use it like a Berserker. ^^
Back to the topic at hand, though; Quads with limited benefits. Or wait, it was the Sirocco.
The aforementioned Trebunara with the Hardened plate, as far as I know, is not the one available to the FWL.

[sadlerbw]

The TRO doesn't say, but according to the MuL, the XH is available to the FWL. Also, the AS card for it is pretty funny: it has 14 armor, but only 2 structure!

Anyway, the tonnage thrown into improved jump jets is a bit questionable, but in general, I think the Trebaruna is an improvement and worthy successor to the Sirocco. It adds the big guns that the Sirocco never got, and drops some of the more goofy/questionable secondary equipment like A-pods. I do think the Sirocco did secondary weapons better though. A couple extra medium lasers are always a solid choice for backup weapons. I prefer them over light PPCs.

[JadeHellbringer]

No it isn't, it just picked armor twice.

Exactly. We do see units that double down on one aspect and ignore the other two- the Annihilator, for example, isn't well-armored at all for its size and is the slowest Mech in canon, because it had a heaping double-helping of "kill all the things". Same here- it isn't fast, it isn't overly well-armed, and it will take a sobering amount of work to make it stop advancing.

[The Eagle]

Same here- it isn't fast, it isn't overly well-armed, and it will take a sobering amount of work to make it stop advancing.

Like a WIGE with a tow-cable swooping around its legs?  O:-)

[Arkansas Warrior]

Like a WIGE with a tow-cable swooping around its legs?  O:-)

More like "being thrown out of a dropship from an altitude measured in miles."

[mbear]

Like a WIGE with a tow-cable swooping around its legs?  O:-)

If only Chain Whips were legal for vehicles...

[Wrangler]

If only Chain Whips were legal for vehicles...

Harpoon SRMs....

[Nahuris]

Considering the FWL's love of all things LRM, I am surprised we never got a variant that replaces the Ultra 10's with LRM20's.  That said, I do see where it can be useful in some formations.... however, like most Marik designs, you really need to pair it with other mechs to get the most out of it.

Nahuris

[Empyrus]

Considering the FWL's love of all things LRM, I am surprised we never got a variant that replaces the Ultra 10's with LRM20's.  That said, I do see where it can be useful in some formations.... however, like most Marik designs, you really need to pair it with other mechs to get the most out of it.

Nahuris

Considering how they have so many LRM platforms already, a Sirocco LRM platform would be kinda pointless. They got Longbows as assault missile platforms, and Yeomans as heavies, Trebuchets and Apollos as mediums.

And quick look at the Sirocco at SSW implies making an effective missile loadout is awkward. Either there's weight left over easily, or you need to swap ER lasers to pulses, which isn't terribly attractive option. (This was making only very minor changes, weapons and heat sinks only.)

[Kidd]

Like a WIGE with a tow-cable swooping around its legs?  O:-)

Tufana iNarcs loaded with Bola pods ::)
It even has the requisite laser plinkers!

[lucho]

Late to the party, as usual  :-\ , but good article!

The Sirocco is a very useful unit. The base model is an excellent midfielder; pair it with a brawler. While the brawler gets in the enemy's face, the Sirocco lays down the thunder from medium range. Between the missile boats and the brawler, the Sirocco is a big intimidating tower of metal. Come to think of it, it's odd that the Lyrans didn't come up with the Sirocco...

The 5C model is a good support unit. But all that close in weaponry is wasted. My own idea (posted in the workshop thread) is to replace all the close in gear for a pair of turret mounted ER Large Lasers. You can still  protect yourself at short range without taking away any long range clout.

The 6C is just... wierd  ??? A 95 ton pachyderm that flies through the air and yet is armed for long range lovetaps? Sorry, this model needs bigger guns to exploit its shocking mobility.