Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion

[Weirdo]

Very true. For example, I'm perfectly capable of completely ignoring any source that tells me that an ISD needed over thirty thousand crew to operate, and instead assume the number is simply bigger than I can count in a single glance, while nowhere near that high.

[I am Belch II]

The Imperal ships were over manned compared to other ships. The Imperial Destroyers had 6 times the crew of a Mon Cal cruiser.

[glitterboy2098]

per the Visual Dictionary and cross sections book, the Raddus had been refit by the Resistance with automation to reduce the amount of required crew.


that said, it probably still was heavily understaffed. odds are chunk of its crew had gone down to D'Qar to help evacuate that base, and got caught on the ground when the Dreadnought fired and destroyed the base, mid evacuation.

and to be honest, the ISD's are probably not a great example for crew densities, given they carry a ridiculous number of ground troops, ground combat vehicles, the craft to deploy said ground units, and the personnel to maintain and support said ground units..
odds are that most of the 30k crew is actually all the "mobile army base" support staff it would need to support its 10K infantry on a deployment.

[Scotty]

"The evacuation is complete" is a line that I definitely did not hallucinate, so I really doubt that a good portion of the crew got caught on the ground.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Speaking of lines we know we heard, Finn had a line that confirmed his former posting in "sanitation" involved pushing a mop.  So dies the beautiful fan theory that "sanitation" was a First Order euphemism for genocide of the native species on planet Starkiller.

[glitterboy2098]

"The evacuation is complete" is a line that I definitely did not hallucinate, so I really doubt that a good portion of the crew got caught on the ground.

there sure seemed to be a lot of people still on the ground just before the guns fired though.

[Scotty]

there sure seemed to be a lot of people still on the ground just before the guns fired though.

And there were roughly zero when the guns actually did fire.

[Bedwyr]

So, now I'm wondering, are those of us still hoping her parents were somebodys just holding on too hard to older stories.  In my case I know I was hoping she was a Skywalker because it could have given us a chance to get Mara Jade back.  Anyone else think that's what we're doing?

I don't think that's a bad take. I'm sympathetic because I've read some big chunks of the EU, but I'm also separated enough from deep deep fanship that I think the reviewers have a good independent eye on the story. The idea that Rey is her own woman and a budding leader in her own right is a potentially *powerful* story point.

And you can see it in the plot points: Luke only gives her two "lessons" that end up being a near exhortation to just be done with the Force. She continues training herself, if imperfectly, at that rock on the island. Notice Luke only walks up to observe her rather than actively coach her. She already has fighting skills. Growing discipline in the Force matures in her confrontation with Snoke and Ren. Yoda tells Luke to ease the heck up on her and sets fire to a tree to put an exclamation point on it. And yet it's clear that he knows she absconded with the books herself.

I like the lessons the other character arcs teach too. Finn and Rose had two failures in the movie and I couldn't be happier. Now at least we're clear that not every heroic action results in a clutch save and sometimes the smaller things matter. Poe gets put in his place by both Holdo and Leia. I feel Holdo didn't manage him as well as she could have, but her iciness was believable for a commander with flaws and the fact that the resistance was denuded so badly (they'd lost all but the cruiser right?) makes the internal rebellion believable.

And regarding things like logistics and crew sizes... well, I have to just check out of all arguments. To me it's just angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin stuff for a space opera where ships always fight right-side up with sound-in-space. It's WWII action tropes with rule-of-cool mixed in. I understand the desire to figure everything out, but I couldn't possibly participate because SW is in its essence a story and relationship-driven universe, not a mechanically-driven universe.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I went by my FLGS the other day and they had the Bombers from TLJ as new minis for sale for the X Wing game.  I read over the back of the box, and learned their technical designation is B/SF-17.   I don't think the line was in the movie, but yeah, they're not even hiding the WWII influences.  I was already calling them B-17s anyway just on the appearance and doctrine we saw in the movie.

[Triptych]

Okay. Someone has to explain this to me.  Isn't a Mary Sue/Gary Stu simply the fictional embodiment of the author? So, which writer/director/producer is she?

According to wikipedia, a Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect character. Rey would fit in this category.

[glitterboy2098]

I went by my FLGS the other day and they had the Bombers from TLJ as new minis for sale for the X Wing game.  I read over the back of the box, and learned their technical designation is B/SF-17.   I don't think the line was in the movie, but yeah, they're not even hiding the WWII influences.  I was already calling them B-17s anyway just on the appearance and doctrine we saw in the movie.

According to the visual dictionary, they are MG-100 star fortresses. I suspect there was as name change between when FFG was given info and the final script. Wookieepedia splits the difference, calling them the MG-100 SF-17 Star fortress.

Visual dictionary also puts the design as dating back to the end of the Clonewars and put them in rebellion use during the galactic civil war. Which explains some of the fragility in the film.. Would be like taking WW2 bombers into a modern 4th gen+ air battle.

Also apparently the bombers don't 'drop' the bombs.. They are expelled by magnetic fields in the bomb racks. Once free of the bomber, the bombs apparently use magnetic fields to be drawn to the target.

And rey is not a Mary sue by any definition. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue
Her skills in TFA are comparable to Luke Skywalker's in ANH, and unlike Luke she actually has as back story to explain her piloting and fighting skills. She also lacks the dramatic back story and relation to some important figure in the franchise.  Made even more blatant in TLJ.
Heck, by all standards Kylo ren is more of as Mary sue than Rey.

But Mary sue has become a term used for 'main character I do not like"

[guardiandashi]

I was thinking about the "bombs" that the bombers were supposed to be dropping and why those bombers went up like roman candles when they got touched off prematurely. (and why they weren't used by the resistance as missile warheads)

now granted a lot of this ties into the RPG's but...  the "bombs" were capital scale thermal detonators, and or capital scale proton torpedo warheads so their effectiveness all of a sudden makes a LOT of sense when you look at how many they tossed out all at once.  to me it looked like there were at least 100 to 200 or more in each bomber, if those bombs each did roughly 2D-9D capital scale damage, (looking at the old WEG 40006 imperial sourcebook for references, assault shuttle 2D capital missiles, up to super star destroyer 9D concussion missile launchers) that could easily add up to enough damage to shred even a super class star destroyer or dreadnaught.

why were they delivering them as bombs rather than missiles?  because of 2 reasons, they did not have a capital ship capable of launching the full up missiles/torpedos, they likely had a much easier time picking up the warheads or components to assemble them without the "rest" of the missile, and they also got a heck of a lot more "punch" (bigger boom in a smaller package) by using them as bombs.

as far as bombs if you look at the older material they always had "bombers" in star wars, its just that most of them were more akin to "torpedo bombers" than bomber bombers.

one of my grumbles with the movie, was calling out a "lightspeed drive" like its a new thing, its always been a "hyperdrive" not a lightspeed drive until this movie.   

[Bedwyr]

one of my grumbles with the movie, was calling out a "lightspeed drive" like its a new thing, its always been a "hyperdrive" not a lightspeed drive until this movie.

That I will grant as a clear "oops".

[glitterboy2098]

Being capital scale kinda fits.. When you look at the TFA and TLJ cross section books, the fighter missiles/torps tend to be about the size of a forearm (old trilogy cross section book shows proton torps on the T65 to be roughly twice that)

Those bombs are bigger than a helmeted head. A good 4x or more the size of whatever warhead the fighter missiles mount.
Though looking through wookieepedia I found an image from a TFA tie in comic showing Ywings using what looks to be those bombs during the GCW. So apparently you can fit them on Ywings, just not as missiles. (Probably external mounts, the way that big EMP bomb seen in clonewars was deployed)

Edit: image
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/8/80/Y-wings_cawa.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170804093305

[HobbesHurlbut]

now granted a lot of this ties into the RPG's but...  the "bombs" were capital scale thermal detonators, and or capital scale proton torpedo warheads so their effectiveness all of a sudden makes a LOT of sense when you look at how many they tossed out all at once.  to me it looked like there were at least 100 to 200 or more in each bomber,

At least one thousand bombs according to Cross Section book. And they're proton. Those are rather much bigger than the proton torpedoes you would find on Y-Wing and X-Wing. And the body is made up mostly of the warhead.

[YingJanshi]

According to wikipedia, a Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect character. Rey would fit in this category.

Luke is much more so.

[HobbesHurlbut]

Luke is much more so.

Lemme see. Lost a duel to Vader, lost a hand. Got knocked out by a beast (face slashed up). Got shot down in his speeder. Got tangled with a couple of dangerous bar patrons (only saved when his mentor stepped in). Got angry and almost turned to dark side twice (ESB Yoda's training and ROJ on DSII).

[glitterboy2098]

Luke: grew up with no combat training as a dirt farmer. Despite this lack of training was an expert fighter pilot, and good soldier. Despite only having received a few hours of instruction, could perform advanced Jedi tricks like force jump and telekinesis, as well as use a lightsaber proficiently without training. These abilities are attributed to him being the son of general anakin Skywalker, republic hero.

Rey: grew up having to struggle every day to survive. Learned to fight to prevent gangs from stealing her salvage and/or raping her. Learned to repair spacecraft and vehicles so that they would be worth higher value. Learned to pilot spacecraft in order to perform salvage operations for the people who owned her. Spends the film using her fighting skills to defend herself first with staff then with a poorly weilded light saber. Using her technical skills to repair a ship little better than the scrap she spent her life salvaging and repairing. Flying a spacecraft using skills she explicitly states she learned for salvage (she just had never flown offwortld before.) Her use of the force is highly limited and unskilled, although powerful. Has no genetic connection to anyone important.

Luke gets all his talents and skills basically for free with no struggle or challenge, just because he is a skywalker, while Rey has to suffer through decades of hardship to learn hers... Yet Rey is the Mary sue?

[00Dawg]

Luke: grew up with no combat training as a dirt farmer. Despite this lack of training was an expert fighter pilot

Hey!  You try to bulls-eye womp rats from a T-16!

[MadCapellan]

Luke: grew up with no combat training as a dirt farmer. Despite this lack of training was an expert fighter pilot, and good soldier.

Flew/hunted in his T-16. Fought sand people

Despite only having received a few hours of instruction, could perform advanced Jedi tricks like force jump and telekinesis, as well as use a lightsaber proficiently without training.

Trained by Kenobi yet exhibited no powers beyond basic telekinesis & keen insight until training for an indeterminate period under Yoda. Explicitly shown training with a lightsaber on the Falcon.

These abilities are attributed to him being the son of general anakin Skywalker, republic hero.

A literal emaculate conception of The Force, making Luke a literal demigod. Despite that, he's still significantly flawed in temperment & ability. Hell, he only "wins" in Return of the Jedi by convincing his father to save him.

I can't believe people are willing to go so far as attack the original trilogy to defend these new films, but I guess a lot of people no longer consider them particularly special or valuable anymore.....

[Lazarus Jaguar]

According to wikipedia, a Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect character. Rey would fit in this category.

then so does every hero from every story ever told

[sadlerbw]

For me, this was a fairly quintessential Star Wars movie. The plot and characters were straight Star Wars, the visuals and effects were top-notch, and the merchandising opportunities were plentiful! I loved it. Was it perfect? Certainly not, but it was good enough and nothing 'wrong' was jarring enough to ruin my fun. I thought all of the actors involved actually managed to do a better job this time around, and the action sequences were flat-out beautiful.

Oddly, the most jarring thing for me was some of the dialog. For better or worse, Star Wars has always had a somewhat British sensibility when it comes to dialog, especially from the rather proper Jedi. When Yoda was talking about the Jedi texts and said, "Page-turners, they are not!", it was like someone reached through the 4th wall and booped me on the nose. It just didn't feel like that was how Yoda spoke. Hux saying, "Do you think you got him?" felt out of place to me as well. Not the sentiment, but the actual phrase. Still, these are really minor complaints, and weren't enough to spoil things for me.

Maybe not all of them, but most of the comic moments in this movie also worked really well for me. Luke/Rey and the 'reach out' scene actually made me snort. Chewie and his dinner guests also got a smile out of me. Poe trolling Hux? That was a thing of beauty and fit so well for the character. Loved it!

Rogue One was probably a better movie overall, but believe it or not, I actually like this new movie better than The Force Awakens. That really is the bottom line for me: I enjoyed it and look forward to picking it up when it comes out on BluRay.

[Deadborder]

I can't believe people are willing to go so far as attack the original trilogy to defend these new films, but I guess a lot of people no longer consider them particularly special or valuable anymore.....

I can't believe people are going so far as to attack the new films in order to defend the original trilogy either.

The crux of the argument is this: Rey is no more or less deserving of the epithet then Luke is.

[Liam's Ghost]

I don't know how I'd rate it at the moment. I know I enjoyed myself, and that I will own it on Blue Ray as soon as legally possible, but my actual enjoyment is fuzzy.

For the purposes of this discussion, I blame Monbvol for that (since the person we previously decided to blame doesn't hang around here). I got very little warning that we were going to see the movie and had to skip eating food before that (and the food I ordered at the concessions had to be abandoned because I didn't want to actually miss the start of the movie). I was shaking and a bit hazy throughout the movie, which doubtless colored my perceptions.

So I'll have to watch it again.

[YingJanshi]

I can't believe people are going so far as to attack the new films in order to defend the original trilogy either.

The crux of the argument is this: Rey is no more or less deserving of the epithet then Luke is.

That's really all I was trying to say. For the record, I like Rey. I think she's a great addition to the universe and a good successor to Luke.

[Deadborder]

That's really all I was trying to say. For the record, I like Rey. I think she's a great addition to the universe and a good successor to Luke.

I figured as such. I just was trying to be blunt about it.

And Rey is awesome.

[Bedwyr]

For me, this was a fairly quintessential Star Wars movie. The plot and characters were straight Star Wars, the visuals and effects were top-notch, and the merchandising opportunities were plentiful! I loved it. Was it perfect? Certainly not, but it was good enough and nothing 'wrong' was jarring enough to ruin my fun. I thought all of the actors involved actually managed to do a better job this time around, and the action sequences were flat-out beautiful.

Oddly, the most jarring thing for me was some of the dialog. For better or worse, Star Wars has always had a somewhat British sensibility when it comes to dialog, especially from the rather proper Jedi. When Yoda was talking about the Jedi texts and said, "Page-turners, they are not!", it was like someone reached through the 4th wall and booped me on the nose. It just didn't feel like that was how Yoda spoke. Hux saying, "Do you think you got him?" felt out of place to me as well. Not the sentiment, but the actual phrase. Still, these are really minor complaints, and weren't enough to spoil things for me.

Maybe not all of them, but most of the comic moments in this movie also worked really well for me. Luke/Rey and the 'reach out' scene actually made me snort. Chewie and his dinner guests also got a smile out of me. Poe trolling Hux? That was a thing of beauty and fit so well for the character. Loved it!

Rogue One was probably a better movie overall, but believe it or not, I actually like this new movie better than The Force Awakens. That really is the bottom line for me: I enjoyed it and look forward to picking it up when it comes out on BluRay.

I think you've hit on something. The dialogue may betray a degree of self-awareness, especially in upper classes and leadership, that wasn't there before. Before, the self-aware common-man western dialogue was limited to lower class gunfighters and similar archetypes like Han. Now they've proliferated to sarcasm and 4th wall breaking in the new leadership like Luke and Leia and it may be jarring and disappointing to many.

[glitterboy2098]

I can't believe people are going so far as to attack the new films in order to defend the original trilogy either.

you're right. the original trilogy was perfect, beyond reproach, can never be critizied ever. a paragon of film making, with perfect characters...

*Gets hit with Ghost Yoda's stick*

the fact is that the original films are very much a sign of their times, and the prequels just feed into their flaws. luke manages to become a skilled warrior and pilot with basically no effort of backstory that actually justifies it. he manages to learn how to be a fairly effective jedi with basically no training, and his stuff after Yoda's training just take him from "fairly good" to "extremely good".. i mean, after a few days to weeks of training, he can suddenly fight Vader to a standstill, despite Vader having years and years more training and experience? even if Vader was holding back to capture him alive, that is a huge jump in competency. and yet he achieves all this with minimal struggle. that makes him a very problematic character from a narrative perspective. yes he loses his hand and get attacked by wampa's and such.. but those occur despite his skills, rather than as a result of flaws in them, and actually feel rather forced.

and yet Rey, who actually has been given a backstory that explains her talents, actually struggles to use her force powers for once she learns she has them, fails fairly consistently at everything but hand to hand combat, tinkering and arguably piloting, which are the three things her backstory actually covers. when she fails, it is due to flaws in her knowledge and skills.. she can;t hit the broadside of a barn at takodana because she's never had a blaster before and has no experience with it. her attempts at the mindtrick (which she picked up because Kylo Ren just used a variant on her!) fails the first time, because she has zero training in the force. she is visibly strugglign to pull off the Tk-tug on the lightsaber. etc.

if Luke was given the same traits, people would claim he's too weak (as they have whenever someone in the EU was given that sort of limitation) but apparently when Rey does it she's "too perfect".  ???

[Minemech]

 Luke was explicated to have been a stupendous pilot and gunner in the backstory. Aside from that, you got the impression that Darth Vader was fighting Luke seriously in The Return of the Jedi? His goal was to draw Luke to the dark side, not to kill him. I think you gravely misread the narrative of the original trilogy, and therefore misread the motives behind many actions. Darth Vader never gave Luke a serious fight.

[Skyth]

Dark siders such as the sith, vader, maul the witches of danthomir (legends )

The witches are very much cannon, having shown up in Clone Wars.